Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Spencer Shooting Society => Topic started by: ndnchf on September 02, 2021, 05:57:40 PM
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Blair most graciously sent me seven original C.D. Leet .56-50 cartridges to both test the cycling in the M1871 Springfield Spencer and to reload. Thank you Blair!
I thought it best not to muddy the other threads. I promised to share photos and progress, so I'm starting a new discussion. I pulled apart one of these cartridges. I will be cleaning it out and cleaning it up. I plan to reprime the rim with Prime-All, which I've used successfully on the .56-52 and other rimfires. Then the original powder charge and bullet will be reloaded. Then it will go to the range to be fired and chronographed. Here are the details and photos.
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Here are the specs.
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After cleaning the original bullet, I was surprised how similar it looked to my Lee 515350 bullets. The original weighs 343.5gr, the Lee bullet 356gr.
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Very cool! How hard is the lube? Seems to all be there.
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It was quite hard and seemed to beeswax based. I put the bullet in very hot water for 15 min to soften it a little. Then used a wooden toothpick to dig it out.
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There is a fair amount of corrosion on the bullet's base and some on the lower band. This seems to be a result of contact with the powder. Considering this loss, I'll speculate that the bullet's original weight when new was very close to 350gr.
So now I'm thinking maybe I should save the original bullet (maybe have a mold made to duplucate it?). With the Lee bullet being so similar, I could take a little off the nose to bring its weight down to 350gr. This way I can have the same weight bullet for the velocity test. The shape is pretty darn close.
What do you guys think?
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ndnchf,
The 51.5 gr. powder charge is a surprise! Could you take a photo of your 50-45 cartridges along side of one of the 56-50 C D Leet cartridges?
I am wondering how much of a difference there might be in the OAL of the two?
Also, if you still have the chamber casting you took of your Springfield/Spencer chamber if you could include that in the photo?
I suspect the bullet in the CDL cartridge was right at around the 350 gr. weight. Corrosion may account for some of the weight loss. Could some of that corrosion have contaminated the powder? Causing it to weigh more?
Last, How did you get the bullet from the cartridge case without damaging either one?
My best,
Blair
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Blair
There were some small lead flakes in the powder. I picked out most of the larger flakes, but a few small ones did remain. I haven't tried to measure it by bulk, but I suspect it will be closer to 45gr. There is probably a little fulminited mercury mixed in too.
Here is the Leet, 1.623" length next to my .50-45, 1.687" length.
I no longer have the chamber cast, that was many years ago. But from my notes, the chamber is 1.400" long.
I used a kinetic bullet puller. I felt almost certain the priming compound was dead. But I made sure the case was held firm in the puller, not able to shake around and bang the rim. I did it outside with a faceshield and protective gear. It came out quite easy. That thin, soft copper crimp gave way with little difficulty. Then I had to dig out the compressed powder.
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Here is the case after the cleaning cycle. After the powder was removed it was soaked in very hot water for 15 minutes. Then two 8 min cycles in the ultrasonic tank using water and a little Simple Green. After it was blown out and dry, the rim recess was scraped to remove any remaining debris. A spinning bronze bore brush finished up the inside. The outside was cleaned and lightly polished to boost its self esteem :D. It is now ready to reprime and reload. Also pictured are the tools I use to clean the rim recess.
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I really love this experiment you're doing, makes me think when people say native tribes reloaded rimfires during the 1870s. I've seen people talk and say they have some evidence. but I like how you're doing this. Granted the tribes didn't have prime all.
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I really love this experiment you're doing, makes me think when people say native tribes reloaded rimfires during the 1870s. I've seen people talk and say they have some evidence. but I like how you're doing this. Granted the tribes didn't have prime all.
Thanks - its a labor of love. I do enjoy the challenge of doing it and testing them out. I've read of others using strike anywhere match heads for priming compound. I wonder if that is what native tribesmen used.
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Howdy
I also disassembled a 56-50 cartridge and noted the increasing dia. of the bands. What was the reason for this?
Regards
Colt
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Just a guess. But since the cartridge is designed with a slight taper, maybe the reduced middle and upper bands allow the taper to continue all the way to the case mouth. It also created a bore riding type bullet where the upper band rode the bore, while the bottom band filled the grooves.
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Ease of manufacture? ???
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Interesting article about 56-50 Spencer in the fall issue of Black Powder Cartridge News.
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ndnchf, i think it was the match heads and probably alcohol or if they got a hold of something else, not sure. I do know that Indian agents back in the late 1860s and 1970s had restrictions on what reservation traders could sell and how much. All traders operating on a agency were only allowed to sell muzzleloading supplies and no "fixed" ammunition. makes you wonder if they used the fulminate from percussion caps. I used some caps to reprime some primers couple of years ago. it worked like how your experiment is working.
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This morning I took some powder measurements. Goex Cartridge grade powder was poured through a 24" drop tube. It was bulk measured using a standard brass black powder measure with 5gr increments. The unprimed C.D. Leet case was used. From meaurements of the original bullet and cartridge I determined that the bullet was seated approximately .369" into the case.
Goex Cartridge grade:
40gr - came to .500" from case mouth.
45gr - came to .395" from case mouth.
Original C.D. Leet powder, 51.5gr weight:
46.5gr bulk - came to .300 from case mouth. This indicates approximately .069" compression.
Note: the rim was not primed, so a small amount of powder probably went into the rim. After it is primed, the powder column is likely to be maybe .020 - .030" (?) nearer the mouth.
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Interesting stuff ndnchf. Always enjoy your stuff and look forward to further reports on your Spencer project.
Dave
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Not only has all of this been very interesting, but I feel that you are doing a service to improving the historical record. I'm not sure if this type of research has been done before; I'm not aware of having seen it if it has. Thank you for the effort that is involved and for taking the time to record and pass on the results!
Griff
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Thanks guys, glad you are all along for the ride. Its nice to hear that others are interested in my work. I don't know if anyone else has done this, but if they have - I've not found it.
The original C D. Leet case reload is complete. After repriming the rim, the original 46.5gr (bulk), 51.5gr (weight) charge was poured in via a 24" drop tube.
I decided to save the original bullet and use the bullet from my modified Lee mold. In 30-1 alloy it drops at 357gr. The nose was then turned down in the lathe to get it near 350gr. In order to get the original overall length of 1.625" I had to compress the powder about .060". Beeswax based bullet lube was applied to the bullet, then it was seated and gently crimped.
I hope to get to the range later this week to try it out ;D
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I got to the range today to test the reloaded 1864-1865 vintage C.D. Leet .56-50 cartridge. Here is a short video of the fun:
https://youtu.be/YXf1PQR6zlU
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Thanks, Steve:
A big treat, as always.
Interesting 990 velocity from your carbine.
Any chance you could shoot that round in your M1974 to learn rifle barrel velocity, please?
Thanks.
Above all, you are a good shipmate.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
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I tried to shoot it in the M1871 rifle. But like the original reloaded .56-52, it would not go off >:( I'm really not sure why. The firing pin puts a big dent in the rim, but only at the very out edge. I tried it twice. The dents are so prounounced that I needed to straighten the rim before the Remington's block would completely close on it. I just dry fired the case to get a photo of the dent it makes. Also a photo of the Remington's firing pin hit. It is much deeper and a little more inward, but less wide as the Spencer hit. When I put the priming compound in, I spun it fast for 20 seconds to make sure it got out into the rim. It may be this priming compound is less sensitive.