Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Cas City Historical Society => Topic started by: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on December 16, 2017, 08:56:28 PM
-
We all know this don't we.
http://www.thevintagenews.com/2017/12/16/wild-west-era/
-
The difference between the U.S. old west and the Canadian old west is that in the U.S. the settlers went west first, then came law enforcement, such as it was at the time. In Canada the law (North West Mounted Police) went west first, established law and order, had the Indian treaties signed, and then the settlers came.
-
If you work outside i'd say your nailing about 95% of the old west. Im pretty sure someones done that since 1895.
-
Did someone actually pay him to write that nonsense???
CHT
-
I've always considered the "Old West" era to be from the end of the War between the States up to at least to 1912 when Arizona and New Mexico became states. It might be said it continued until WWI when a lot of rural people (mostly the men) traveled far from home for the first time to serve in the military and discovered the big wide world. Prior to that, at least in many rural areas there wasn't all that much difference between 1890 (generally accepted as still part of the Era) and 1910 to possibly as late as 1915.
My $.02 worth,
Dave
-
I'd concur with Dave T. My great-grandfather was born in 1902, western Michigan. Raised on a ranch in central Oregon and based on his stories ( he passed in 1994 from old age and inactivity with a clear head) I'd say that was correct. Aside from a train ride to Oregon as a tyke, his childhood was very much a continuation of the prior era, 1860-1890. No amenities on the hardscrabble subsistence ranch the family owned, his older brother broke wild horses and sold them , they cut cordwood and delivered it to the Willamette River boats for some scarce cash. The few photographs surviving show a lopsided roughsawn two-room house and pole barn covered in home-split shakes. My earliest memory of the man I was 4 years old, splitting shakes in the woodshed on a snowy day with a mallet and the froe he claimed was his fathers. Up into the 1980's he and grandma grew or traded for probably half of what food and other consumables they needed to live. Thrifty with themselves and generous with family and strangers alike, they have been a cherished memory for me, source of many stories my kids grew up hearing, and a connection I miss deeply to a simpler and more honorable time.
-
I've always considered the "Old West" era to be from the end of the War between the States up to at least to 1912 when Arizona and New Mexico became states. It might be said it continued until WWI when a lot of rural people (mostly the men) traveled far from home for the first time to serve in the military and discovered the big wide world. Prior to that, at least in many rural areas there wasn't all that much difference between 1890 (generally accepted as still part of the Era) and 1910 to possibly as late as 1915.
My $.02 worth,
Dave
Well put. I'm gladly adding my 2 cents to this definiton
-Bulldog
-
I'd say to that Dave T pretty much 'hit it on the head'. I'd add that there different periods within that time but all interrelated. As a side note, my Dad born and raised in Iowa said that when he served aboard a ship during WW2 that several guys from the Boston/New York City area asked him if he/those in the Midwest still had problems with Indian raids and other problems related.
;D ;D
-
I'd say to that Dave T pretty much 'hit it on the head'. I'd add that there different periods within that time but all interrelated. As a side note, my Dad born and raised in Iowa said that when he served aboard a ship during WW2 that several guys from the Boston/New York City area asked him if he/those in the Midwest still had problems with Indian raids and other problems related.
;D ;D
I reckon I would go with the original definition - 1863 to 1893 ? the land rush for the cherokee strip was pretty much the end of free land .
We saw the same thing here (Australia) from 1850 to 1875 most all of the decent useable land had been gobbled up by the squatters (your free range ranchers) - by 1900 it was settled, fenced, and the process of carving up the big estates (closer settlement) had started - things were rough and tough in the period that followed, (say 1890 to 1915) but different, there was some semblance of organised law,
-
In 1883, Buffalo Bill's Wild West was founded in North Platte, Nebraska - when Buffalo Bill Cody turned his real life adventure into the first outdoor western show.
This would mark of the end of the Wild West/Old West so beloved by dime novelists.
Yes, cattle would still be driven, and outlaws roamed, as did Indians - but the railroad soon civilized the towns on the line and barbed wire did the rest.
The Old West ceased to be the day they sold tickets to see it.
The Time-Life series 'The Old West' does a good accounting of what really happened.
Scouts Out!
-
The Old West ceased to be the day they sold tickets to see it.
Not trying to be argumentative but please explain this? Western/Frontier literature, both personal and researched histories, relate a great deal of "Old West" activity being a part of everyday life well after the date of that ticket sale.
Dave
-
You can argue when the "Old West" began as being post-CW, although I think a good case can be made for when the first explorers and settlers began to push west from eastern seaboard, over the Cumberland mountains. As far as when "The Old West" ended, IMHO, it basically faded out when the automobile became more commonly owned. But even then, I would extend that to when the first paved roads became common, allowing more ease of travel and communication west of the Mississippi. Until then, transportation, aside from the railroads, depended on animals, as it had since the domestication of the horse! (If you consider outlaws such as Bonnie & Clyde as part of the Old West, their use of the automobile would certainly meet the above criteria!)
IMHO, the Old West provided an outlet for the excess energies of the Eastern cities. A hundred-and-fifty years ago, a restless young man (and even some women), could set out for the frontier to seek his/her fortune. Some, like Billy McCarty (aka Billy The Kid), a product of the New York slums, came to a fatal end. Some, like Kid Russell, scion of a prominent transportation outfit (Russell, Majors and Waddell), sent west to "get it out of his system", became a cowboy...and a chronicler of the West through his paintings and sculptures. (I often look at a certain Western sunset and comment that Charlie Russell is busy today!)
Sadly, we no longer have a frontier for our youth to go to very easily, if at all. Our only frontier is straight up! And, while this may be an oversimplification, I think it accounts for a lot of the problems our youth sometimes get into! Maybe, in twenty or thirty or fifty or a hundred years, access to the "Final Frontier" will be cheap enough to give them a "New West" to settle!
Ad LEO! Ad LUNA! Ad Ares! AD ASTRA! (To Low Earth Orbit! To the Moon! To Mars! TO THE STARS!)
-
Although the US Census Department declared the frontier "closed" after the Oklahoma Land Rush of 1889, the Wild West lived on much later than that and the testimonies given by the other members here serve as good examples. It can arguably be said that the "Wild West" lives on today. Despite the current "snowflake" phenomenon, the values of rugged individualism, admiration of wide open spaces and personal property, private firearm ownership, the right to self-defense or making citizen's arrests, and a desire for disaster preparation are all still very evident. I've been fortunate to visit and work in many countries around the world but that "Wild West" or "Cowboy" - "Can-do" mentality is very American and it makes us stand out like sore thumbs... but in a good way.
I would probably rephrase it at the period of the "American West" which started off with the Lewis and Clark expedition to continue through what is known as the "Expansionist Era" that lasted to right up to the beginning of the American Civil War. This would include the Mountain Man, Westward Movement, California Gold Rush, & Sierra Nevada gold/silver rush. Following the American Civil War, a succession of westward land rushes continued incrementally right up into the 1950s. My friends and I still to this day are "horse-people" with guns at the ready and hospitable hearts for those in need. So from where I sit, it aint over yet. However, if I were to call it the "Old West" for the sake of "wild woolly, heroes & outlaws" I would probably cite it from 1804 to about 1935.
In either case, I don't know why the author failed to identify the 60-year period before the end of the Civil War and at least add that on to the years leading up to the 1890s.
-Dave
-
Although the US Census Department declared the frontier "closed" after the Oklahoma Land Rush of 1889, the Wild West lived on much later than that and the testimonies given by the other members here serve as good examples. It can arguably be said that the "Wild West" lives on today. Despite the current "snowflake" phenomenon, the values of rugged individualism, admiration of wide open spaces and personal property, private firearm ownership, the right to self-defense or making citizen's arrests, and a desire for disaster preparation are all still very evident. I've been fortunate to visit and work in many countries around the world but that "Wild West" or "Cowboy" - "Can-do" mentality is very American and it makes us stand out like sore thumbs... but in a good way.
You must have missed australia in youre travels - western queensland - the drier parts of northern territory
We were still doing overland cattle drives of 1500 miles in the 1960's
-
Good point. I should not have forgotten about our Australian cousins. I have only been to the Sydney area so that does not count. I have not yet seen the real Australia which still has a wide open howling wilderness.
-Dave
-
...The Old West ceased to be the day they sold tickets to see it...
I like that line. ;D ;)
I will however tender the notion that the Wild West began long before 1865 as there were wild & rowdy mining camps and ol' California was a Helluva place where civilian "gunfighting" as we think of it today originated. It's true origin most likely was by soldiers issued Walkers in the conquest of Mexico who mopped up all resistance in Mexico City and the legendary (and controversial at the time) Texas Rangers in the war as well.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a416963.pdf
-
......However, if I were to call it the "Old West" for the sake of "wild woolly, heroes & outlaws" I would probably cite it from 1804 to about 1935.....
-Dave
I agree with Dave . The "Boonies" West of the Mississippi and East of the Sierra Nevadas remained "Old West" almost until WW2.
In my mind, the three big game changers were the auto/truck, telephone, and electricity.
Unless you were a city slicker, you were most likely a member of the rural population, and more likely
to be Less Civilized and more Wild. Until you got past the horse and wagon and got a telephone, you were
completely dependant upon yourself. Many New Mexicans depended on the horse and wagon to get into
town once a month until the end of the Great Depression.
note 3 big kickover points in rural numbers: 1870, 1920, and 1970
1800-1970: Changes In Urban/Rural U.S. Population
Year Urban Rural
1800 6% 94%
1810 7% 93%
1820 7% 93%
1830 9% 91%
1840 11% 89%
1850 15% 85%
1860 20% 80%
1870 26% 74%
1880 28% 72%
1890 35% 65%
1900 40% 60%
1910 46% 54%
1920 51% 49%
1930 56% 44%
1940 57% 43%
1950 60% 40%
1960 63% 37%
1970 74% 26%
until 1936 with the REA most rural homes had no electricity at all. Those who did used windmill generators,
small scale hydro, or (the wealthy) used steam generator or an internal cimbustion generator.
Some rural folks had a lamp and a radio run by battery, which was charged in the truck when it was driven.
Heating and coooking was done with wood, keroscene and coal, lighting with candles and Hurricane and Aladin oil lamps.
The Rural Electrification Act of 1936, enacted on May 20, 1936, provided federal loans for the installation of electrical distribution systems to serve isolated rural areas of the United States, Wiring homes and farms.
REA crews traveled through the American countryside, bringing teams of electricians along with them. The electricians added wiring to houses and barns to utilize the newly available power provided by the line crews. A standard REA installation in a house consisted of:
A 60 amp, 230 volt fuse panel, with:
- A 60 amp range circuit
- A 20 amp kitchen circuit
- Two or three 15 amp lighting circuits
A ceiling-mounted light fixture was installed in each room, usually controlled by a single switch mounted near a door. At most, one outlet was installed per room, since plug-connected appliances were expensive and uncommon. Wiring was performed using type NM (nonmetallic sheathed cable), insulated with asbestos-reinforced rubber covered with jute and tar.
Several friends here in rural New Mexico never had electricity until they installed a modern LP generator, in the 1990's . Running a line
several miles from the power pole was just too costly.
yhs
prof marvel
-
Great points Professor.
I got a lot of my foundation knowledge on life in the 1800s from My grandparents who grew up in 1880s era houses without electricity or running water out in Chelsea and Claremore during the 1920-30s. My grandpa always cited what a big deal it was when his house was finally connected to the line from the local gasworks.
My uncle Clyde was childhood playmates with Pretty Boy Floyd, while my uncle Kermin Bradshaw got wounded while robbing a bank with his brothers in the Cookson Hills. My great cousin ran a man down with her Ford while making a bootlegging run, while another uncle was an affiliate of Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow but my grandma and aunt Coot did not like saying too much about "those two".
-Dave
-
You can make claims of why the West wasn't The Old West, but it lasted longer than that story claims. My grandfather was born in 1872, homesteaded in Montana in 1908 and lived as they did in the 1880's. That was certainly wild. He went on and stabbed a guy in a bar fight in 1936 which ended the other guy's life and my grandfather's freedom. I would say that the Wild West lasted awhile into the 20th century...
(http://i.imgur.com/HfPfsQq.jpg) (https://imgur.com/HfPfsQq)
(http://i.imgur.com/egTxuTf.jpg) (https://imgur.com/egTxuTf)
-
That's a great story, sir! Is this "Kirk" your namesake?
CC Griff
-
I got his name and luckily avoided his temper...
-
I wonder, if you could get 15-20 original "Rough Riders" [who fought in the SA War,circa 1898 or so] together at a "reunion" what would they say about when the Wild West Era actually ended. More interestingly, if they met once, and then again, 10 years later , how would their stories change ,if at all? Sadly, we will never know from their mouths, for sure.
I'm thinking the end of WW-I might be a close approximation, after the "boys" came home and started to" gentle down" .JM not so HO. Nick
-
The Arizona Rangers were "Officially" started in 1902. The Arizona Cattleman's Assoc. needed protection from mexican rustlers. Arizona was still the "wild west" in 1902 till early 1930's
Arizona Rangers by Bill ONeal
-
Anyone get the Tombstone Epitaph? I used to get it once a month. I can't remember why I stopped but I may get it again. It has a lot of reprints from the old days and some new stuff too! Good publication. 8)
-
The Arizona Rangers were "Officially" started in 1902. The Arizona Cattleman's Assoc. needed protection from mexican rustlers. Arizona was still the "wild west" in 1902 till early 1930's
Arizona Rangers by Bill ONeal
Thank You Rye!
I only recently discovered that New Mexico had their own tiny group of Rangers (only 13 but hey)
Finally, in 1899, a bill was introduced in the
Territorial Legislature to create a 13-man
company of mounted police. New Mexicans, still
not real cozy with their neighbors to the east,
decided not to model the police force after the
Texas Rangers, but after the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police ? including a proposal to use the
bright red uniforms of the RCMP
http://socorro-history.org/HISTORY/PH_History/201105_nm_rangers.pdf
yhs
prf mvl
-
Good, interesting article Professor. Ay of ya old enough remember the late 50's TV show about the Arizona Rangers (1957-59)--'26 Men'? Googled it and listened to and watched the show opening/theme song on a You Tube site. Hadn't heard that in years. As kids, we used to sing it along with the show and at other times. ;D ;D
Theme Song:
"This the story of 26 men--Who rode the Arizona Territory---High is the glory of 26 men---Whose courage helped build the territory...?.
Ride On-Ride On-Ride On"! I'd post the link, but my how to do capabilities for doing so are non-existent. :'(
-
And this classic song
https://youtu.be/zzICMIu5zFY
-
Wow! Haven't heard that in a while. Hearing that acoustic guitar and rhythm makes me want to google the lyrics and chords and pull out one of my git-tars'! Thanks for postin Delmonico. Maybe you could be a 'Gentleman and Scholar' and lookup and post that 26 Men theme song. My computer capabilities rival my ability as a brain surgeon. :o ::) ;D
-
Try these. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=song+26+men
-
Thank you Sir Charles-That's the video I watched. Relistening to it, a thought came to me, I wonder if there is 26 riders in that video. Have to go back and try to count em when I have nothing else to do someday. Might have to add that intro on to a list of 'TV Bloopers', just in case there are only 25, could be 27. What happened to the 26th or where did the 27th come from? Maybe the US House of Representatives could have weeks of hearings and spend millions on that investigation like they have since January of 2017 in their latest ongoing folly. Could have gone back and counted em in the time I spent writing this :o. ;D
-
...Could have gone back and counted em in the time I spent writing this :o. ;D
Or maybe the Russians got to you.
-
Good, interesting article Professor. Ay of ya old enough remember the late 50's TV show about the Arizona Rangers (1957-59)--'26 Men'? Googled it and listened to and watched the show opening/theme song on a You Tube site. Hadn't heard that in years. As kids, we used to sing it along with the show and at other times. ;D ;D
Theme Song:
"This the story of 26 men--Who rode the Arizona Territory---High is the glory of 26 men---Whose courage helped build the territory...?.
Ride On-Ride On-Ride On"! I'd post the link, but my how to do capabilities for doing so are non-existent. :'(
I have 26 Men on DVD, good show!! 8)
-
Or maybe the Russians got to you.
Comrade Abilene-Iz sink yous might be vite! :o I tired counting and only got frustrated as it was hard to get a full count. All I know was that 'names were changed to protect the innocent'! ??? :o
-
Moose and Squirrel did it.
-
The December issue of Wild West magazine has an article on a gunfight in 1912. A rancher on a horse caught a rustler with a running iron, changing brands. The shootout left the rustler dead. Sounds "wild westy" to me.
-
You really think the "Wild West" ended in the 20th Century? Just check the "knife and gun club" sections of most daily newspapers, or the evening news! :o >:( On average, you were safer on the streets of Dodge City or Tombstone or Deadwood than in certain areas of most modern cities...especially Chicago's South Side! :( Put not thy trust in princes or in men, but in God and Colt and Smith & Wesson and Glock and Sig!
-
Any of ya old enough remember the late 50's TV show about the Arizona Rangers (1957-59)--'26 Men'?
nope I missed that one... we did not have a TV until ~ 1959 or 1960. I watched Howdy Doody at the granparents house on a set that had folding doors and
looked like a miniature cathedral.
yhs
prof marvel
-
The NWMP went west (The Great March) in 1873 to quell the Indian problem. In 1870 the Dominion of Canada acquired sovereignty over what would become the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.
"In the minds of most eastern Canadians the territory was perceived as a lawless frontier where drunken and savage Indians murdered and scalped settlers. Their suspicions were confirmed by a British Officer, Lt. William Butler, who was commissioned by the government to survey the country in 1871. Butler dubbed it "The Great Lone Land" and reported that "The institutions of Law and Order, as understood in civilized communities, are wholly unknown."
"Sir John A. Macdonald's answer to the problem of disorder and the threat of Indian violence in the North-West Territories was to organize a force of "Mounted Riflemen, trained to act as cavalry, but also instructed in the Rifle exercise." This body, Canada's first Prime Minister conceived, "should not be expressly Military but should be styled Police, and have the military bearing of the Irish Constabulary".
"It would proceed to the western plains, establish law and order and reach a peaceful understanding with the Indian nations about their future and that of their traditional hunting grounds in advance of settlement. In this manner Canada would avoid the armed conflict associated with expansion on the American frontier, the prairies would be peacefully opened up to white settlers and the railway could be built that would link Canada with British Columbia."
Recruiting for the 300-man force began in the fall of 1873. The following year, under command of Commissioner George A. French, the NWMP made it's epic march from Manitoba to the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. They put an end to the whisky trade that was decimating the Indians and the wolfers that were poisoning other game, but with the decline of the buffalo herds and the increase of settlement, relations with the NWMP deteriorated rapidly.
In 1876, after the Custer debacle, Sitting Bull was allowed into Canada with his Sioux as long as they didn't stir up trouble with Canadian Indians. Eventually they were returned to the US to face US justice. Relations between the RCMP and the Indians haven't improved much since.
Sorry for the rant. It's a rainy day and I'm bored out of my skull. Spent most of it cleaning guns.
The difference between the U.S. old west and the Canadian old west is that in the U.S. the settlers went west first, then came law enforcement, such as it was at the time. In Canada the law (North West Mounted Police) went west first, established law and order, had the Indian treaties signed, and then the settlers came.
-
We've had a few incidents over the last couple of years where trespassers (usually Indians) have entered private property with intent to do harm, steal, whatever. It has resulted in gun play and charges being laid.
Surprisingly, the courts have exonerated the shooters. People are demanding the right to protect life and property, especially in rural areas where police response is slow to non-existent.
The December issue of Wild West magazine has an article on a gunfight in 1912. A rancher on a horse caught a rustler with a running iron, changing brands. The shootout left the rustler dead. Sounds "wild westy" to me.
-
Don't forget the Texas Rangers and Frank Hamer killed Bonnie and Clyde in 1934...
(http://i.imgur.com/papvXZr.jpg) (https://imgur.com/papvXZr)
-
I have been giving this a lot of thought since my initial answer and it can arguably be said that the "Wild West" is still very much alive and well. I live in rural Arizona where we still have the following:
Outlaw Desperadoes or Desperado Gangs - (Check!) Except we call them 1% MCs now.
"Indians" (Check!) The ones I deal with are great farmers and good ol' boys whom I enjoy shooting with. I live right down the road from a few reservations.
Carrying Guns (Check!) We still commonly do this in Arizona and just like the past, most of us open carry on the trail and conceal carry in town. The 2nd amendment represents a great responsibility with which comes terrible consequences if abused. The same goes for our rights to make a citizen's arrest and to use deadly force in self defense should the unfortunate circumstances occur.
Posses (Check!) We still have those too. Citizens are still trained and deputized to serve as reserve officers, assist in search & rescue, respond to large social events or massive casualty events, etc.
Riding around on horses (Check!) It is more for recreation or getting around a large spread if you have one but yes, the horse culture is alive and well.
Gold Prospecting (Check!) Yes, it is still a thing and wading into a creek to pan on a hot day with a 6-pack of beer is still a good time.
Bank Robberies - Murders - Shootouts (Check!) They all still happen but in greater number though not as much in rural areas where the citizens are more likely armed. Urban areas tend to have the high crime statistics but yep! they still occur. (Side note: Bank Robberies were not at all common until the invention of the automobile.)
Bounty Hunters (Check!) We still have them and they are more common than just Dog and his crew.
"Cowboy" clothing (Check!) We still wear western hats and clothing that are appropriate to ranch work but there is a big difference between that and the buckle-bunny crowd who only does the "Cowboy Up" thing for line dancing. Also technically, my uncles, aunts and cousins run dairy and cattle ranches so they can be called "Cowboys" (I suppose) but they prefer to be called "Ranchers". Come to think of it, I don't recall any ranchers I know calling themselves "Cowboy" unless it is in an off-handed way. Me, I worked on horse ranches and my only experiences with cattle, bulls, etc., comes from visiting family and working rodeos so I'm not actually a "Cowboy" either. In regards to the clothing, when I was young we typically wore tee shirts, jeans, ball caps and running shoes when working with stock (just easier and cheaper for a 20-year old kid hopping horse to horse) but we wore boots for long rides or working rodeos. Same thing with western hats though I have friends who wear them 24/7 in their neck of the woods. I wear mine on occasion but normally go about in a ball cap, Wranglers and Carhartt.
All that said, the only thing I can say that we no longer have is a "frontier" but we still have a whole lot of pretty unspoiled country out there.
BTW, I know a lot of you readers get this already. I am writing this mostly for those who live in cities or out of the country who wanted to know but were afraid to ask.
-Dave
-
OOPS! Just realized I already responded to this post a while back.
-
I still think what we know and popularize as the old west was mostly between 1849 and about 1890. the rest seems to be isolated pockets of familiarity. My various relatives, though, still used mules, horses and old ways up into the 1930's On Cogar Mtn in WV.