Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1876 => Topic started by: Slamfire on September 25, 2014, 06:59:46 PM
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I have been looking at this site ( and others) all the way from the back to the front .The one thing i'v noticed is the lack of talk or at least a lack of interest in 40/60's. Is it just me or am I over looking something, I really think I would like a 76 in 40/60,,. I'v noticed we don't have any ( 40-60) load data in our load data section , so if any one on here has a 40-60 that you shoot & want to visit ,let 's do it. I'm sure i'll have one,,,,( my gosh i'v got to have one) before tooooo long. ( Ithink I feel a fever coming on).
Hootmix.
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I recollect some discussion, way back. The .40-60 is a good round but not much more powerful than a .44-40. I think it was less popular than the three original cartridges. I think Venturino wrote about reloading it. You could simplify matters by loading BP. Just fill it up until a bullet compresses the powder a bit.
Then there is the issue of bullet diameter? I think it was about .406 and about 210 grains. The easiest bullet mould to get would be a .410 for the .41 Rem Mag.
I'm shootin' blind here, as I have no experience with it at all. :-[
P.S: Mister Google told me to look here;
http://www.shootersforum.com/big-bore-lever-guns/52353-winchester-1876-40-60-a.html
And to here; http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16884
P.P.S: Another article on the history of the 1876 rifle, but not on the .40-60
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Sir; Thank you for the info., read both. It looks like a up hill climb , but I'm used to challenges,( I work on sq. hay balers for folks). From what i'v read those folks w/ chaparral's have a hand full of problems,,but nearly all say the chappie barrel are good,,tight and darn accurate. I may look in that direction( price being what it is).,,. Will the 40-60 not make a target round ,,200-300 yds. ( I quit shooting game years ago). Thanks ,again.
Hootmix.
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If they don't shoot back, or run away, or fly off into the blue, you can shoot anything you want, and enjoy every minute.
Just remember that the .40-60 wcf has the same weight of bullet flying only 200 fps faster than a .44-40. And it comes in a rifle weighing 2 to 3 pounds heavier. Will it reach 300 yards? Yes it will, but the easily available bullets might not be the best choices to make tiny groups. I did notice one shooter posted that he was going to try the .40-60 for levergun silhouettes, which I think reaches out to 200 yards. I have seen a shooter using a .45LC in a marlin, ring a big gong at 400 yards, but I rang it more often and with a bigger KLANG using a BLR'86 in .45-70.
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Howdy Slamfire,
When I started shooting a Chappy in 45-60 there was little info on reloading it. I have had a lot of fun working up loads for it. If that sort of thing is fun for you by all means go for it. If you are planning on using smokeless powder, I bet you could improve over the 44-40 by more than 200 fps.
Silver Rings
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There are some smokeless loads in the links I posted to get it going thataway.
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Howdy,Rings, I be a smokless shooter. Sir Charles just point me to the right place i'll read all can .I think this little .40/60 can be made to shoot what I want to do.Need help to find the best model to use in a chappie and which models to stay away from( of course were talking about a "76") I think a barrel length of 24-26" would suit me just fine,the weigth of these rifles ( for my purpose) will be a plus. My "92" 44/40 is a tool for a different job. And of course I don't need another GUN ,,,I want one.(76). ( dang fever it's getting worse).
Hootmix
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Hello Slamfire, I load and shoot the 1876 Winchester in cal. 40/60wcf. I have found the 40/60wcf in the 76 to be a very accurate and plesant cartridge for target and hunting. Like you and many others I had read how the 40/60wcf was a tiny cartridge in a large gun.Well I ended up owning a couple or three 76s in 40-60wcf along with the loading tools bullet moulds ect. So I decided to load some ammo and give the old rifles a wirl. Ha wasnt long before I began to take a likeing to the little 40/60wcf. It can be very accurate @ 200 yd. my eyesight is what limits the distance to 200yd. not the cartridge rifle combo. I had one 1876 Winchester with a very bad bore . The rifle had been cut-down to 22" yrs. back and is in very good condition minus the bore. So I re-lined the old 76 and the ROT is 1/22" . This 76 is very handy to handle and is Super Accurate! My favorite load for it is 55gr. 2ff Swiss bp. std. Lg. rifle primer (No wad or card! ) and the 255gr. bullet cast soft from my 40/82wcf mould @ .406.This load in the 22" 76 will cut ragged hole groups if I do my part @ 100yd.The rifle hardly moves on the sand bags, and plain just looks good! What more could one ask from a rifle. Go get you one see for yourself ! Most that down the 76, 40/60 have No experience with one. The folk that do ,Well Most like them very much... ,,,,,,,,DT click on pic!
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I have no experience with the 40-60.
I have shot the 40-65 in a single shot Sharps rifle I built up.
It is a real steel Ram killer at 500 yards!
The soft cast lead bullet at 1 to 30 tin to lead weighed in at 420 grs. dia. was .409. ROT was 1-16"
Powder charge of 59 grs by weight of 3 F with no wading or grease cookie.
Once fired cases, no sizing, with the bullet thumb pressed into place.
Something similar to this load may not work in a leaver gun in the .40-60 cal. I don't know?
My best,
Blair
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Blair; The rifling rate-of-twist will determine that. IF the twist is fast enough, one MIGHT be able to singleload?
http://kwk.us/twist.html There are others, but some with limitations (Berger bullets only go up to .338.)
1. Measure or look up the rifling twist in the rifle.
2. Enter the diameter and bullet length. (This is cut'n try. Start with the length of a bullet you know, then try another or estimate an hypothetical bullet.) The length is the important factor.
3. Try several bullet lengths until the resulting twist value matches the measured twist.
4. Go back and find a bullet that does not exceed the calculated length. (Pointy noses DO NOT count! For around the speed of sound, & less, round noses work just fine.)
5. Is the bullet likely to match the oal and chambering requirements of the rifle. (Assuming it is not a singleshot, other than a Martini.)
6. If several bullets show promise, select one with a high ballistic cooefficient.
Does this sound like the beginning of a steep learning curve ???
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Sir Charles,
I very much agree in all the point you state.
Like I stated I know nothing of the loading of the 40-60.
And yes, it does sound very much like a steep learning curve.
I have avoided posting any info on the 40-65 I have shot for this reason.
But, perhaps it is time, considering the lack of info on the 40-60?
It is my belief that the 40-60 should be a very good cartridge out to about 300 yards with the right bullet.
Maybe not a Ram killer at 500 yards, but I don't know?
My best,
Blair
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Blair; If you try to cut down a ram with a 500 YARD sight setting you will miss! :(
It would be a measured 500 METRES away. ;D
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Dusty,i like what I see,very nice rig,that 22" barrel looks great. I think i'll try to pk-up a chappy ,,,you know price and all. Sir C. I hope to do at least 200-250 yds. ,and not just "gong the dong",but try for tight groups,,ahhh that's just me. Looks like we have some intrest going here,,whooorah.
Hootmix
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Does anyone know what the ROT is in the (Chaparral) 40/60wcf barrel ? With the 22" barrel with a ROT of 1/22" the 280 gr.rnfp has given very good accuracy with the re-lined barrel.The 210gr. /255gr./ and 280 gr. rnfp all were stable @ 200yd.I have never tried it past that distance . I would think that @ 300yd. it should still be stable. But that is far shooting for my eyes and open sights. Just may give it a try! ,,,,DT .
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Sir Charles,
You know best the range I have shot at.
I will leave it to you to add any funny faces you wish.
My best,
Blair
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I have heard from friends that have the Chaparral 1876 Model that they are very accurate shooters. ,,,DT
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Sir Charles,
You know best the range I have shot at.
I will leave it to you to add any funny faces you wish.
My best,
Blair
Thank you! 8)
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Yea,Dusty, most folks that have a chappy ,,say they are kind of clunky ,need lots of smooth'n,polish'n and what not ,but they are very accurate,maybe some one on here would like a (91model)1875 outlaw in 44/40 7.5 barrel ,. I like the rig you have w/ everthing to reload right there kind a like "Valdez".(old movie w/ burt Lancaster).
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I remember that movie Was a good one! I really do use the old tong tools . This kind of shooting is a slow enjoy it kind of thing for me . I am not a gamer or compete with anyone but myself so Slow and Sure is good for me. And it makes good Ammo,,,,,,DT.
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The only reference Mr. Google sent me was that the Chappie .40-60 has a 20 inch rot;
http://www.shootersforum.com/big-bore-lever-guns/31648-looking-opinions-chaparral-1876-rifle.html
This says to me that heavy bullets won't cut it. The heaviest I've seen in personal experience posts was about 260 grains or so. I also came across a reference to the Lyman handbook for load data.
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I think the Mike Venturino test w/ a 40/60 was with chappiew/ 26" barrel ,and at the top of the page it refured to a1in 40 twist ,,,I think that's what I remember,and that would mean slow,,,
Hootmix.
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I just ran a hypothetical bullet of .410 diameter and 1.00 inch long through the calculator I posted above. The result for my imaginary 1 inch long bullet resulted in a rot of 1 turn in 21".
Slamfire; I don't have Mikes levergun book and couldn't find that figure. I don't think the Chapparal website can be found anymore?
Measuring ROT is easy. A cleaning rod with a tight patch is run down the bore after having marked the rod so the amount of turns can be detected. Measure the distance on the rod for a full turn.
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Sir Charles, I read so much,,,, that i'v read toooo much,so I went back and found this:
Test rifle-win. 1855, single shot #3 barrel 1in 40 twist 40/60,,,i got this confused w/ another articale.
This is the article by mike v.
A Chappie, 1876 w/26" barrel,,bullet sized to.406 smokless powder "NOT FOR USE IN ORIGL. WIN. MODERN REPOS. ONLY.
The article did not give ROT,,, my mistake.
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Be careful when reading up on .40-60! There are quite a few, and they all differ in some respect to the others. The one we are looking for is the .40-60 WCF made for the Win m76.
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Yes Sir,,I guess the only thing to do now ,,,( dang fever's got me tremble'n ) get one .I'll checkw/ the classifieds, maybe some ones got 3or 4 to many(LOL).
Thank you.
Hootmix.
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Slamfire,
In 1855 the standard ROT was 1-72 for a 40" long barrel.
This remains the same until about 1868.
The 40-60 Winchester cartridge evolves sometime around or just after 1879.
The ROT will depend on the length of the barrel of that firearm.
My best,
Blair
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Thanks for the info : Blair. I just love when a plan comes together,,don't ya'll. Just looked at cdnn "26in." 1876 40/60 600.00 + the usual shiping ,called my FFL dealer to make sure ,EVERYTHING GOOD THERE,,,But ,,they have no powder,,and these folks shoot big time all over. Bullets yes primers so-so, some BP's ,,no smokless. Danggum.
Hootmix.
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Slamfire; The powder shortage won't last forever, and already sporadic deliveries are happening. I even hear comments about .22 ammo coming back, but here & there. Meanwhile, buy a tin of 3Fg or Olde Eynsford and shoot it like it was designed to be shot. Buy some cast bullets for the .41 Rem Mag, and go to it.
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Sir C. You saying .41 mag which are .410 dia.,,so i'll need to resize these down to .406-408 depending on rifle bore???
Hootmix.
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Sir C. You saying .41 mag which are .410 dia.,,so i'll need to resize these down to .406-408 depending on rifle bore???
Hootmix.
My guess is that you might not need to size them down at all. Oversized bullets, as long as they will chamber seem to work OK in my experience. Slug your barrel, an easy task, and if its' .408 or so don't worry about it. If you find suitable smokeless powder the lube they have on delivery will do fine. If you decide on blackpowder then melting the smokeless lube out in a tray in a fairly cool oven will work. Just relube with a BP compatible lube. I don't even bother to "pan-lube', just rub it into the grooves by hand.
If resizing seems advisable, look for the LEE sizing kits. LEE casting equipment is usually available and not expensive either.
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Greetings!
It would probably be better to compare the .40-60WCF to the .38WCF, rather than the .44WCF, since the first two are, for all intents and purposes, .40 caliber. Yep, the bullets for both the .40-60WCF and the .44WCF weigh the same, but the .40 caliber has better sectional density for the given weight, and will probably penetrate a game animal a lot deeper. It's also a lot easier to beat factory ballistics by testing different Black Powders, powder compression levels, primers, etc.
I suppose that making .45-60WCF brass from .45-70Govt. would be a lot easier, but what's the fun in that? Years ago, I made up a 'dummy' .40-60WCF using a trimmed and annealed .45-70Govt. case for the brass, and an OLD Ideal Shell Resizing Tool. Not having a late Lyman #403168 mould at the time, I used a slug from my Lyman #41028 / 212gr. to cork the case. Wouldn't you know it: crimped in the crimp groove, I got 2.10" OAL. HELL! Now I'm going to have to scare up an Italian '76 in .40-60WCF... See what you did? First, I need to get rehired...
M.T.Marfield
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Howdy ,M T,, I like your idea about the .40 having more density ,and deeper penetration . I actually picked the 40/60 because of the real lack of intrest in the little cartrage,but "now" it seems there are quite afew 40/60"er"s (for lack of a better word). Now maybe the 40/60 load section will pick-up some info.Now don't get me wrong,,I love my 44/40 ( 92 rossi) ,but the first time , I saw 40/60 !! I got that in'er hunger ( you know ,the one we can't explain) to get one . There is a gun show this weekend at paris, TX. about 25 mi. so. of me ,goi'n to swing over sat. morning check it out . Have a 1875 outlaw 44/40( of course) about a 91 model ,, maybe to sale or swap. Be holler'n back later. Been a pleasure meet'n ya.
Hootmix.
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Greetings, SlamFire!
Yep! We're all here to, "share the pain"!! I wish that I could afford one of each!
First, I need to get "un-laid-off"...
Be Well!
M.T.Marfield
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Slamfire-
I have no experience with the 40-60... Brian Pearce addressed the 40-60, 45-60 and the 45-75 Replicas in an article that appears in the 49th Edition of Lyman Reloading Handbook. Of these three rifles that Brian tested (all 3 were Chaparral's) he states that the 40-60 had a much flatter trajectory than the 45-60 and the 45-75. On page 103 he shows a loading table guide for the 40-60, the powders that he used were IMR-4198, AA5744, AA2015, Trip 7, Varget and Trail Boss. Of these loads he states he had the best accuracy with 28 grains of IMR-4198 under a 292 grain RNFP cast bullet and he also claimed good results with AA 5744. The rifles were furnished by Charter 2000 distributor at that time. The brass cases used for his test was Jamison brass. Ken Waters also addresses the 40-60 in his book on "Pet Loads". Waters used 45-70 brass and then used a form and trim die for sizing the brass and or fire form 45-70 brass leaving cases full length @ 2.10". Waters also has a closing chapter on the 40-60 and here he addresses using jacketed ammo. As stated I have never shot the 40-60 but everything I have read about it sounds good. Waters claims it is an EXCELLENT deer hunting rifle.
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An oldie but a goodie , we have come a long way .,,,DT
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Kinda makes me want one. Got a bunch of new Jamison 40/60 brass, might as well get the rifle too. I can not shoot it just as much as the other 2 I have.
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King, you might as well make it 2 more and be like Dusty with all 4 different calibers.
I still like the ideal of the 40/60 WCF. When I bought the Chaparral 45/60 in 2014 it was a toss-up between the 2 calibers, with the 45 being easier to find a bullet mold and CDNN only having 26" barreled 40/60's left. Had to have the 28" barrel on an 1876. Well now, a few weeks ago I won an original Win 40/60 mold off of ebay in near perfect shape. It molds a 212gr; 0.405 diameter bullet with the original 1 to 16 alloy.
It appears that this will be my start for looking for an 1876 in 40/60. More fun and more reloading tools down the road.
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DT, i think we goin'n have some company, ;D ;D.
have'n coffee & smiling, Hootmix.
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Having one of each caliber is the goal, and beings I already have 2 45/70s, the 40/60 will be next.
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King, you might as well make it 2 more and be like Dusty with all 4 different calibers.
I still like the ideal of the 40/60 WCF. When I bought the Chaparral 45/60 in 2014 it was a toss-up between the 2 calibers, with the 45 being easier to find a bullet mold and CDNN only having 26" barreled 40/60's left. Had to have the 28" barrel on an 1876. Well now, a few weeks ago I won an original Win 40/60 mold off of ebay in near perfect shape. It molds a 212gr; 0.405 diameter bullet with the original 1 to 16 alloy.
It appears that this will be my start for looking for an 1876 in 40/60. More fun and more reloading tools down the road.
Don't blame it on me Lol .,,,,DT
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King, you might as well make it 2 more and be like Dusty with all 4 different calibers.
I still like the ideal of the 40/60 WCF. When I bought the Chaparral 45/60 in 2014 it was a toss-up between the 2 calibers, with the 45 being easier to find a bullet mold and CDNN only having 26" barreled 40/60's left. Had to have the 28" barrel on an 1876. Well now, a few weeks ago I won an original Win 40/60 mold off of ebay in near perfect shape. It molds a 212gr; 0.405 diameter bullet with the original 1 to 16 alloy.
It appears that this will be my start for looking for an 1876 in 40/60. More fun and more reloading tools down the road.
Don't blame it on me Lol .,,,,DT
Don't know how this comment got by me from so long ago but things happen. No Dusty, I would not blame you one bit ;) ;D ::). This darn affliction is all my doing and problem. But it is enjoyable. Now finding one in a price range I can swallow is the problem. I would even take another Chapparal in decent shape.
BRS
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Speaking of the Chaparral Model 1876 rifles , I do not see near as many on the market for sale lately . They have not been made for a few yrs , maybe the few left out there are drying up ? Prices for any 1876 Winchester are almost always on the steep side . ,,,,,DT