Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => USFA CSS => Topic started by: IronMountainPete on April 12, 2021, 04:13:38 PM
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I recently acquired a USFA San Juan Hill SAA with the black powder frame. Gun is in nearly perfect condition. From what I have researched they were only built in 1998 and have very low production numbers, but that is all I have been able to ascertain about this revolver. It appears to be Turnbull Case Hardened and the bluing is amazing deep dark black. Clearly not a standard finish. I know this is a parts gun as it does not have the conical firing pin. It has two serial numbers on it, one matching the original SJH pistol that is in the National Firearms Museum, and the second Serial # is NFM040. Does anyone have any information to how many of these were made and if there is much collector value? I do not have the box with the gun so thinking of using it as a shooter.
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Pete,
Welcome to our forum!
To be perfectly honest with you,this is the first I have ever heard of the San Juan Hill model USFA so I would assume that you are correct in stating that very few of them were made. As for the 1998 production year, that would make it an all Uberti parts gun. As to collector value, I will leave that to others more knowledgeable than I.
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This is the only information I have been able to find about this reproduction.
http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940504/a%20rough%20riders%20colt.pdf
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Does this revolver have a USFA roll marking on the barrel? If so could you provide a photo of the barrel roll markings?
I am like Capt. John, I have never heard of this revolver and it is not listed in Blue Book of Gun Values under USFA.
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I don’t know how many of the Rough Rider guns were built but as the serial number suggests there were at least 40 (Uberti) sold through Cherrys. At the 2005 (maybe 2006) Shot Show we had a Rough Rider gun on display. All US parts, mis-matched serial numbers and “antiqued” the way it was orginally done. The parts were rusted and then rusting process stopped. The guns had a light freckling and looked old. The problem was if the rusting process wasn’t totally stopped, rusting would continue after the gun was boxed and shipped. A few got out and were totally rusted/pitted upon arrival at the dealer. The process was eventually changed to a wire wheel, steel wool and oil.
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GaryG, Were all the guns sold through Cherry's only and was the one on display at the shot show the only all US parts revolver made?
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Here is a pic of the barrel roll marks.
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all numbers are mismatched on this revolver to match the Louis G. Bishop gun on display at the National Firearms museum On the frame and butt of the revolver. the only difference in the NFM number. Same numbers and Proof Marks as well as RAC on the cylinder , exactly like the original.
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The pictures are small, but from what I can see and IronMountainPete's description of the finish on this gun, and hearing from GaryG that they were all antiqued, I'm thinking maybe this one was refinished at some point?
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I would be happy to provide hi-res photos which will reveal factory finish. I am more curious about getting to the bottom of the origin of this piece that actual valuation.
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I wasn't around for the Cherry guns so don't know the final finish. The antique guns started with the Gunslinger and the Shot Show San Juan was antiqued and all US parts. Mis matched numbers and no NFM serial number. All the Gunslingers were all US too.
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Here is a link to the only other one I have seen available, confirming finish. Not much information however.
https://www.guns.com/firearms/handguns/revolver/usfa-single-action-army-nfm-san-juan-hill-artillery-45-lc-single-action-6-rounds-5.5-barrel-2.2-used?p=22532
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Here is a link to the only other one I have seen available, confirming finish. Not much information however.
https://www.guns.com/firearms/handguns/revolver/usfa-single-action-army-nfm-san-juan-hill-artillery-45-lc-single-action-6-rounds-5.5-barrel-2.2-used?p=22532
IronMountainPete, that is a nice looking revolver and looks very similar to USFA's Government Inspector series artillery revolver. The Government Inspector series guns had the old Armory blue instead of the dark Dome bluing. The revolver in the link you have provided has a number of features to suggest it is likely an Italian parts revolver. Nice revolver though.
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There was no doubt in my mind that it is an Italian Parts gun. My biggest interest was to know the specs on the gun. It looks like a Turnbull case hardened and finished gun. Also curious how many were made as I cant find any information about the gun. Wondering if there was any collector value to the gun from a USFA Collector standpoint, or if I should just shoot the hell out of it.
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Pete,
The link to your "documentation" indicates that your gun was sold by "Cherry's" firearms sales. Cherry's has a history of marketing guns that they have special ordered, in limited numbers, from various manufacturers that are only available through them. I would assume that your gun is one of them. That would make your San Juan Hill USFA a Cherry's limited edition and not, necessarily, a USFA limited edition.
As for collector value, the Uberti USFA's rank a distant second to the all US made models. A shame because, back in the day, those Italian USFA's were head and shoulders above their Uberti brothers, just not as well done as the later made all US guns.
So... if it was mine I would go ahead and "shoot the hell out of it" and any potential collector value (which I believe would be minimal) be damned!
CJF
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Bummer that there is no collector value, but I bought it to shoot it anyway. If anyone is recording the history of these guns and would like hi-res images to document this Revolver, I would be happy to provide that information.
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Pete, I would think the one antiqued all US parts San Juan Hill gun GaryG mentioned that was at the shot show would very much have collector value, but like Capt. John said the ones contracted by Cherry's not so sure. I only have two USFA'a that haven't been fired and only one of them is a safe queen.
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To anyone who may be interested. I reached out to Cherrys and here was their response. "This is something we did under contract with the NRA Museum. All the guns were done at USFA in Hartford. They finished the guns and shipped them directly to Cherry's for delivery to our customers. Not many of the guns were ever made. I am trying to remember but maybe 50 to 75 guns were actually produced." Now we know! Cherrys was very gracious to provide this information for me overnight in an email.
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Final Update: Just heard back from Turnbull, and they have records to support that all 50-75 of the San Juan Hill guns for USFA were Case Hardened and Charcoal Blued at their facility.
Here is what we know for whomever comes across another one of these:
Replica of the Louis G. Bishop, Rough Rider Colt held in the National Firearms Museum
Black Powder, Case Hardened Frame. Charcoal Blued barrel with 5 1/2" barrel, chambered in 45 Colt
D.F.C inspection marks on underside of barrel and on frame, above frame serial#. Also a P proof mark on underside of barrel
OCH (Odus C Horney) Cartouche on left grip panel with 1901 over the top of it
RAC (Rinaldo A. Carr) Cartouche on right grip with a small R.A.C stamped on bottom of grip
Frame stamped "US" next to Patent dates
Cylinder stamped in 3 places, (8222, R.A.C, and P)
Grip serial# 119276
Trigger serial# 93910 with a G beneath it
Frame serial# NFM###
Total Build: 50-75 pieces
Turnbull finished all pieces
Build was commissioned by the National Firearms Museum in 1998, through USFA for a limited run to be sold exclusively through Cherry's.
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learned something new ;D
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Cherry's did a 125th anniversary Trapdoor Carbine that year as well. Finished by Turnbull. I got no. 47 of 125 in a closeout sale at Cherry's back in 2001. Walked in on the right day.
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I have one of these revolver in the regular finish ( not antique finish ) . I shoot mine and it’s a great gun !