Just brain-picking, but...

[DeaconKC]

I was wondering if a builder could make a Spencer replica chambered for 45CS the would hold 10 rounds in the mag tube? It probably wouldn't be competitive, but boy would it be fun!

[Abilene]

Problem would be feeding, not chambering. Repros were made in 44 Russian which case is only .072 longer than 45acp/CS.  I've heard that they don't run too well with the shorter cartridges, either, which is one reason only 45 Colt and 44-40 (and 56-50) are produced now.  But hey, fun thought!

Now I'll let the actual Spencer owners chime in.   

[RattlesnakeJack]

A gunsmith familiar with the Spencer action needs to chime in on this ,,, but, as I understand how the cartridge feeding works, seems to me it could probably be done if a new breechblock made for that shorter length of cartridge were made and installed … and if the length of the butt was increased a bit to accomodate a longer magazine tube (which in turn would require a lenger follower spring and tube …)

Dealing with the latter problem first - Spencer cartridges were/are in the range of 1.60" OAL (which, I understand, is why the action can be used more or less "as is" to make repros chambered for, say,.45 Colt - which has pretty much the same OAL.)  If I'm not mistaken, the .45 Cowboy special has an OAL of about 1.25" … so you gain about 0.35" of "room" with each shorter cartidge.  Accordingly, over the magazine capacity of seven 1.6" cartridges … you only gain 2.45" of room (0.35" x 7) which is not quite the combined length of two .45CS cartridges  …. so a standard-length Spencer mag would only hold nine cartridges of .45CS length.  However, if the butt stock and magazine were lengthened by, 1.3" or so (… wouldn't be too much of a  problem for most "modern sized" people, would it? …) then you could have a magazine long enough to hold ten .45CS cartridges ….

The other problem, however, would be the geometrics of the action itself ...



AS I understand it, cartridge OAL is fairly critical in a Spencer because, as you depress the lever, the next cartridge is pushed forward into the "cut-out" in the big breechblock (area marked above by the two parallel red lines)  … then, as you close the lever, the breechblock rolls forward to start the cartridge feeding toward the chamber … presumably with magazine spring pressure still being applied to its base by the nose of the following cartridge ... until the edge of the block cutout (marked 'X') moves into position to catch the rim of the cartridge and continue pushing it forward, while the curved surface of the breechblock rolls up in front of the bullet of the following cartridge, preventing any further forward movement by it (… and, if anything, probably pushing it back into the magazine tube a bit.)   If the geometrics of the block cutout were changed (along the other V-shaped red line) I presume the Spencer action could be made to chamber cartridges of shorter lengths …

Indeed.  I wonder if the flat face of the cutout in an existing breechblock could simply be "faced" to work with shorter cartridges … 

(Don't imagine you could adapt the Spencer action to work with cartridges which were much longer, however, because the size and bulk of that already big breechblock would have to be increased …)

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[DeaconKC]

RJ, thank you for that really well explained and illustrated answer. Some questions spring to mind:
1. What is the current LOP on a Spencer?
2. Do you think a manufacturer would be able to sell enough units to make the work worthwhile? As the S&W #3 only involved lengthening a cylinder to make it able to accept .45 Colt.

[Abilene]

I don't think they would even consider making it.  The target customer population would be  tiny.  The long lever throw would be difficult with a longer LOP.  And who needs ten rounds anyway?  Only CAS folk, and this gun would still not be shot very much because you would still come in last.   ArmiSport/Chiappa sells all of these they can make anyway.  Your best bet would be to find a talented gunsmith who could modify one to run the shorter round.  Since they could run the Russian (but how well?) then seems it might be possible.  But that's a lot of work for not much payoff.  IMO, obviously.  Nothing wrong with dreaming, though. 

[Coffinmaker]

   An interesting Preposition 

One major problem, as mentioned by Abilene, is the intended market segment.  Approximately two ore three shooters??  Maybe four??  Absolutely no profit to be made there for the start-up cost.

Perhaps a talented Machinist/Gunsmith might take on the project (NO !! I WON'T) but take your Broker to lunch first.  Make it a real good lunch.  It'll cost some really BIG bucks.

And while we're on the subject, let us remember just how badly Uberti and Smith screwed up the #3 when they stupidly lengthened the cylinder to accept a "never never" cartridge.  Should have left it alone at 44 Russian and 45 Schofield.  Schmucks.

I realize my tirade has no material contribution to the OPs question(s) as I really don't think the Spencer, modified to accept C45S is a worthwhile endeavor, and really don't have a Dog inna fight and so my actual contribution is just about Nil.  there is also a good possibility this missive should be completely ignored.  I no I wood.  However, if your reading this part . . . IT'S TOO LATE!!  You're already HERE!!

Play Safe Out There

Remember:  People Are Hazardous to Yer Health

PS:  I must also add, I don't own, don't shoot, don't like Spencer's anyway (thibbit thibbit thibbit)

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Spencerians,

Even though I have no experience with a Spencer, I have been reviewing this exercise and given Coffinmaker's last post, I have a thought. Since it has been well noted that the complexity, expense and limited market for the proposed modification make the idea moot, a new shooting category is clearly indicated: The Glacially Slow Style Points category.

The shooter comes to the line with a standard Spencer, an 87 shotgun and a pair of sixguns. He/they/she shoots the Spencer dry and single loads the remaining rounds to make the 10. the 87 shot as normal. Now all we need are recommendations for sixguns that are so difficult to shoot that they compare to the degree of difficulty of the above mentioned long guns.

I think we can all agree that a new shooting category is always welcome.

Rev. Chase

[Cap'n Redneck]

I own an early production ArmiSport/Chiappa 1865 Carbine in .45 S&W Schofield.  It will hold 8 in the mag.
Mine has the twin extractors.  When performing a re-load on-the-clock I have to make sure to close the breech partly so the extractors retract into their mortises.  If not they will keep the cartridge from seating fully, and the breech-block cannot be closed. 
However, if I pay attention to the spec's of my ammo, lube the action, and keep my wits about me when cycling the action: it will run "as slick as an eel in a bucket of snort".  Well, at least as far as Spencers go...!

Now, to be able to fire ten rounds from the mag; I'm thinking: buy a .44 Russian Spencer that has been de-bugged by the previous owner. It will already hold 9 in the mag.  Make a new, longer stock and lengthen the magazine-tube and the follower so that it will hold 10 rounds.  Yeah, and You will have to be born with slightly longer arms than Your fellow Spencer-shooter in order to comfortably cycle the action...

Or just beg the Match Directors for more "Spencer-friendly" seven-or-eight-round rifle stages...?

Afterall; the 10-10-4 stages are way over-rated, right?   

And in response to Rev. Chase's request for "difficult to shoot sixguns" I offer the following line-up:
A pair of 9-inch Pietta Texas Paterson's, shot Double Duelist or Gunfighter style.
Or for occations when added knock-down power is needed: one Uberti Walker and one Pietta LeMat shot Double Duelist or Gunfighter...
From my own experience & observation I think I'll proclaim the LeMat as THE most difficult sixgun (actually: ninegun) to shoot Duelist style.  Nevermind the weight...the ergonomics are simply non-existant.

[Abilene]

I was converting some old VHS footage from 2001 to digital and several stages only had 8 rifle.  Shooter puts rifle down, I'm thinking No! You've got 2 more!  For about a second, then remember that a lot of stages used to be 8 or 9 rifle.   I think I've shot only a couple of stages in the last 5 years that were less than 10.  One was an 1873 Sweep  with pistols and rifle, which is only 19 rounds.

[Trailrider]

Very simple... Allow the shooter to use a Blakesley box with three rounds in the reserve tube.  When the Spencer has fired 10 rounds, the shooter picks up an empty Model 1887 shotgun, and loads six rounds while the clock is running, and then cuts loose!  Pistols of your choice. Timing to be done with a medium-size hour glass! 

[Jim W]

I'd just wish someone would just load new 56-56 rimfire cartridges!