Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Zoot Shooters => Topic started by: Tornado on June 04, 2015, 12:33:00 PM
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AZSA sound really fun, so I am beginning to research firearms, in case anyone starts a club in my parts. I love the looks and history of the Winchester selfloaders. I know the rules allow the 351sl but the ballistics look pretty hot for shooting steel. The 35sl is much milder but is less common. I have a couple of questions:
Can you download the 351 and it still function in the 1907?
I also thought maybe you could fire the shorter 35 in the 1907? I could see the bolt not traveling as far, but being a shorter round it might still feed. Assuming the shorter round would feed from the larger 351 magazine.
Thanks in advance
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You can 'try' to down-load the round, but reliability will suffer.
Shooting the shorter .35 is a non-starter, though you can make the brass from .351.
I suggest buying (and reading) a good loading handbook might be helpful.
Scouts Out!
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I agree with you George about the 35SL not feeding into a 1907. But I read that someone said it is possible, they must have been single loading them.
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If you have to / want to use that type of rifle for Zoot wshooting, I'd go with the 35Win SL. The balistics wil be much more friendly, but I don't think you'll find 10 round magazines for it.
I have a M1907 and frankly, I don't see it becomming a competition gun for the following reasons. 1. The ammo is very expensive and hard to get, so are the loading components. 2. The currently made 10 round after market mags are not very reliable, and thier expensive, about $50 bucks with shipping, when you find them. Original 10 rounders run $175 to $200 gunbroker. 3. The gun is a pain to disassemble (front sight must be removed). 4. Very, very, difficult to reasemble, due to the strong recoil spring. 5. The forearms usually break and crack and are difficult to fix in a lasting way. 6. Gun has a heavy triger pull. 7. The gun needs full power loads to function reliably.
the 1907 Winchester is a fun and neat historical rifle but it requires a lot of effort and expense to get running.
The best gun to get is the Thompson, 20 and 30 round magazines are easy to get and high quality. 45 ACP is a great carbine caliber, much less expensive than 351 Win. 45 ACP balistics are perfect for Zoot shooting. The Thompson is more expensive up front but you'll save money and effort in the long run. Plus the same 45 ACP round can be used for pistols, simplyfying things.
There are other guns, such as an M1 carbine with heavier lead bullet loads, might get under the velocity max. I have a Suomi M31 which will function with 9mm lead bullet ammo. I does not look very 'gangster' though.
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I have been trying to talk myself into getting one of these Winchesters for a few months. I always come back to, extra magazines and reloading components would cost three times would the gun alone would cost. I even tried to think what cartridge I could rechamber/ reline to reloading simpler, but even that would just take more skill and money than I have.
It seems the Thompson is the only good choice. I saw where lever guns are legal (I have a '73), but what do you do when a stage requires more rounds than the tubular magazine can hold?
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Reload?
Scouts Out!
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Well, reloading is an option, it's just a little slow. The most common thing is for the shooter to preform a "New York Reload" or abandon one gun (rifle in this case) and pick up another loaded gun and continue the course of fire. Generally it's two lever guns but nothing in the rules requires both guns to be the same style or caliber. If this happens as the shooter is moving downrange (or may move in front of that long gun latter in the caper) we'll provide an open top barrel (that can be moved around by the shooter depending on where they think this change of guns may happen) and the shooter can abandon the open and empty rifle in the barrel and grab the loaded rifle from this same barrel (this assures the long gun(s) never point at someone moving down range as it's pointing into the ground) and finishes the caper.
I have a 1907 .351 WSL and while its a fun piece of history everything about it conspires to make using it both slow and cumbersome in a match. I do agree that the Thompson is both the best looking and most particle choice for this game. On the other hand, after watching hundreds of shooters using different long guns, I don't think someone using two lever guns is at much if any disadvantage in this game.
Hope that helps.
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Get a .35 Remington Model 08.
IF you can find one with a police detachable magazine it would be a wonderful piece.
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I like the 'new york' reload idea, I guess that applies to pistols too? Thanks for explaining things. There is no AZSA club near me but I see that Oak Ridge TN has a club and I have lots of family in that area and visit there a couple of times a year.
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There is no AZSA club near me...
Maybe you could start one. ::)
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The New York Reload is legal with all three guns, rifle, pistol and shotgun. I shot a caper with the Western Torpedoes in Grand Junction, CO one time where they used two shotguns.
The Remington "08" is only chambered in rifle calibers so it couldn't be used in the main match. I use one with a standard magazine in long range side matchs. Anyone know where I can get it modified to take the detachable LE style magazine?
Any time you plan to visit any CAS or AZSA local club be sure to contact them and confirm the schedule.
Pitsptr also hit the nail on the head. Get a mob of your shooting buddies together and get an AZSA club started in your area. If you're currently shooting CAS, see if you can use the club props and targets to help you get things going. We'll all support you every way we can.
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While I am in no position to start a club, I will talk it up an see what happens.
BTW I am in south Georgia.
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I have a 1905. We inherited the gun in the early 60s. It came with no mag. We acquired a 1907 351SL mag, shot 35sl from it with no problem. I would agree the springs and block for the 1907 are tuned to the much hotter 351SL and the 35 SL would not have sufficient power to get the full recoil in the action parts to function reliably.
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The ammo is a problem and I'm working on it. However, I got three 1907s and ten factory 10-round mags - I don't find the mags any less difficult to eject and load than other rifle mags but if need be I could do a New York reload with 30 rounds at my disposal and the style points ??? - priceless!
And good luck finding the rem model 8 15 round mag and the modified rifle to use it. You could buy 10 model 8s for what one of those police rifles cost.
Zip
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ten factory 10-round mags
Impressive :)
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Tornado, I've got a 351 and a couple of 10 round mags all bought with the intent of reduced loads for some gun games we play. I'm sure the gun could be made to run with modification but then it would strictly be for competition with these reduced loads. Brass is easily bought made from converted 357 maximum brass. Lead bullets are a problem unless you make your own. They need to be correct and mimic the fmj factory which were loaded mostly out of the case. Mine would not run loads that were reduced enough to be legal. I think if you had to have one the 35wsl would be the starting point because 1400 fps would be about factory equelivant and brass could be made from 357 magnum on a lathe just like the 351. Still the same problem with the bullets but you could end up with a rifle that actually works. Or the easiest and most competitve solution would be Border Ruffians and get a Thompson or a Suomi . These are both heavy well made guns with great magazines that are cheap and easy to get and for a competition gun that's an important consideration . I have both of these and have been taking them to the local carbine combat matches where I compete against the ar boys with there 9mm uppers. Just a thought but has anybody tried that chipawa m1 carbine in 9mm? Dusty Boddams
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;D one more thought if we are wishing for a proper bullet let's have it hy-tec coated! I'm using this coating in all my 9mm and I am sold on it. Dusty Boddams
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I have been shooting the coated bullets in 40S&W, and yes I really like them.
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Greetings!
Folks, let's all Tag-Team Starline Brass for a run of .351 WSL brass!
Be Well!
M.T.Marfield
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AMC is running a commercial for their latest series, a horse opera set after the turn of the last century in Texas.
http://www.amc.com/shows/the-son (http://www.amc.com/shows/the-son)
The star Pierce Brosnan is holding a Winchester Self Loading Rifle of some sort in both the teaser and this promo photo.
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I got impatient and went out and got the book, so far it is pretty interesting. I have read about 1/4 of it and it spans multiple generations of one family from 1849 to present, but not chronologically. It concentrates on the precivil war era and on the preWW1 era. The author did his homework with the firearms, the .351 has been mentioned once so far.
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Any one know of a way to keep the forearm from cracking?
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Any one know of a way to keep the forearm from cracking?
I have heard of people reinforcing Browning A5 forestocks by embedding fiberglass or carbon fiber on the inside. I would guess you would have to recess the patch some to still have the clearance.
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Would it possibly work to replace the 07 recoil spring with an 05 spring for use with lighter loads? Unfortunately, I don't have either one to try.
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If the 1905 spring rate is lighter than the 1907 spring then yes it would help some, but probably not a whole lot. Being a blowback operated gun, most of the delay is absorbed by the mass of the bolt. Reducing the weight of the bolt is the proper way accomplish your goal of reduced loads. Saying that, I would only do that in very small increments because if you reduce it too much you could get unsupported case detonation.
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Looks to me that going with the look alike 1905 would probably be the best way to go, especially if the same magazines work. Much easier to find brass to modify, as well.
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Hi,
You might consider using the 1905 in 32wsl. The brass is easily made from 32-20 brass and is available at buffalo arms. I have shot my
1905 with lead bullets from hunters supply successfully. I shoot a reduced load but the bolt still whacks the receiver pretty hard. I bought one of the repo 10 round mags and modified it for the 1905 but was only able to get it to shoot reliably with 7 rounds. I got one of the 1907 10 round mags (351) and it shoots the 32wsls pretty reliably without modification. There is no zoot chapters here in the dallas area but I like to shoot it at the range.
Regards
Preston C
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Any one know of a way to keep the forearm from cracking?
I've never seen one that wasn't cracked. A friend and I once took one and did the necessary repairs, then shelled out the inside with a Dremel. After a coat of epoxy, I laid in some fiberglass (repair stuff from an auto parts store), then basically glass-bedded the threaded portions of some drywall screws where ever I could fit them. Then I used epoxy putty to build it back up.
More bother than it was probably worth, but as far as I know that one hasn't cracked. The later ones were bulkier, and less-likely to crack (looked "a little pregnant", but they didn't crack). I've seen repros available from one of the stock companies, Macon maybe.
I always preferred the Remington Model 8, so my thoughts on appearances may be a bit biased.
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Well I stumbled upon this rifle not long ago and it was priced so low I had to bring it home with me. It is a 1905 in 32SL, it was build in 1920 according to the serial number, one of the last ones to be made. I'll order some ammo soon and report back. :)
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I found 31 vintage rounds of 32sl and took them to the range the other day. The brass was marked Winchester Repeating Arms and they were of an unknown vintage and unknown bullet weight. I shot the first 6 over my chronograph and they averaged 1390fps, that sounds exactly like what all the original 165gr loads were suppose to be. I had about 5 of them to fail to eject, but other than that, they all went bang. I brought my 1917 Savage as well, both guns were manufactured in 1920.
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C&Rsenal did a very informative video on the 1907 Winchester:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDgPDsja5jA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDgPDsja5jA)
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As usual, they did an excellent video. That's gonna be a pain to handload to operate reliably with reduced velocities.
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Well it has been a long time, but I finally got my modified 1905 up and running in a match this weekend. I have been very pleased with it's performance lately, from 15 to 25 yards at the match to even eventually getting shots at a gong at 200 yards when I was sighting it in.
I bought a spare barrel that I found online, a previous owner had cut 3" off so it was a good price. I then relined the spare barrel with a .357" bore liner, I then reamed the chamber for 38 special. After months of tuning on the TripleK magazines and the ammo it has been running the new cartridge perfectly, the all new 38SL. I found a tang sight for it on ebay for a rear sight, and I had a compensator made, modeled after a Thompson Cutts compensator, for a front sight. It kind of has a Hyman Lebman conversion vibe to it now. I still have finishing work to do as you can tell by all the in-the-white metal. I still have the factory barrel and magazine so it can go back to stock if I wanted to, but I doubt I will. Being able to shoot a Winchester Self Loader for pennies a round is awesome.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qzmqb3Tg/20211121-192809.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzmqb3Tg)
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Tornado, that is fantastic! That is a great idea converting to .38 Special.
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It is not quite 38 special, basically a semi-rimmed 38 special +p. The rims of the 38 special are too wide to fit in the magazine and it runs best with a warm +p load.
Here is a little bit of footage of the match, you don't see much of the rifle though.
https://youtu.be/p_Lr7pO2cJQ (https://youtu.be/p_Lr7pO2cJQ)
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A semi rimmed .38 special +P? Why not go with .38 Super? Sure, the brass isn't as cheap as .38 special, but then there would be no need to turn down the rims.
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A semi rimmed .38 special +P? Why not go with .38 Super? Sure, the brass isn't as cheap as .38 special, but then there would be no need to turn down the rims.
If the 38 super's case length was longer, it would have been perfect. I have to use a long 147g bullet in the 38 special case to get OAL long enough to run reliably. I may ream the chamber to 357mag in the future, that way i could use shorter bullets. This would also keep these +P loads from ending up in my older 38 special revolvers.
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I took the ol' girl to a match the other day and she ran perfectly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxgnaFtevJI
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Our range had a Prohibition themed match this weekend. There were lots of lever actions, auto loading Colts, double actions, and single actions. I brought out the 1905 Winchester and a 1908 Colt. It was a little hot, so excuse the lack of costumes :) .
Just the 1905:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQxkrX1Dt9E
Stylized highlights of the match:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6POEYts8Yg4
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Those were fun thanks!