Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Leather Shop => Topic started by: Nolan Sackett on May 24, 2006, 02:36:06 PM
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Since there have been some questions regarding this subject here goes with a tip of the hat to FO Baird -
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/tutorials/loops-1.jpg)
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/tutorials/loops-2.jpg)
Some things of note:
1) DO NOT over dampen the leather - leather swells when wet and will shrink in thickness when dry leaving your loops loose.
2) I use the second "machine" method even when hand sewing as it's faster and I generally use 3/4 oz leather for hand gun cartridge loops and depending on the style, 4/5 oz for shotgun loops
3) The most widely used loop width for handgun cartridges on 19th century cartridge belts was by far 1". 3/4" was sometimes used, but mainly on the late 1880-90 wide money belts with two rows of loops.
4) For shotgun loops 1" or 1.25" works good.
There are a few other period "tricks/methods" for sewing loops, but this should answer "how-to" when you don't have measurements. This method also takes into consideration that leather is NEVER consistently thick so I ALWAYS double check measurements with each new cartridge loop strip even when cut from the same hide.
Actually I sew loops seldom - full woven or semi-woven are my preferred choices - they are not only PC and faster to make, but also stronger - that sew line can/will cause a zipper effect - I've repaired MANY more sewn loops in the last 40+ years than either of the woven styles.
Hope this helps and as always other mileage WILL vary.............
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Thanks Mr. Sackett for posting this information. I am planning on buying your DVD in June ;).
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Thank you Mr Sackett. I just bought your Holster DVD.
Triggersmith
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Great thread, Nolan, Thanks for posting this information.
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Do some of you fellows have a recipe for 20 Gauge Shotgun Loops?
It's been quite a while since I have made a belt with 20 Gauge Loops. I'm looking for the recipe for sewn loops with 4/5oz. leather.
Thanks For Your Help.....
Reverend Bob
reverendbob@truevine.net
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I did something like this a while ago when I needed to make loops for a 16 ga.
What I ended up doing was taking another pattern for loops and, for the known pattern, wrote down the diameter of the case the loop pattern was for(call that A), the space between sew marks on the belt (B) and the length of the loop pattern (C). I used a pattern I had for 45 LC loops as a guide.
The ratio for the sew marks = B divided by A (For an example, say this was equal to 2.1)
The ratio for the loop legnth = C divided by A (example 3.4)
Find the Diameter (or A) for your 20 ga shells and multiply it by each ratio to the spacing and loop legnth.
In the example, if your A for 16 ga was .61 inches then your sew spacing would be 1.28" and your loop length would be 2.07"...your actual number will obviously be different.
This got me pretty close and then I dampened them and put a 16 ga shell in them to dry. I first wrapped the shell with 3 wraps of masking tape to ensure the loops would dry big enough to easily extract the shell.
Good luck.
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Howdy,
I would like to share a method of making a re-usable Layout Template for Bullet and Shell Loops. Trust me, this works!
Have fun.
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Good information, BJ. sometimes simple is great. Thanks for the information.
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Simplicity is always the best way to go. When I was making the buckskin wares I shot from the hip and it was hit or miss about half the time. Then, thanks to a tantrum from my 2 year old daughter who scattered a bunch of pre-punched and unmatched pieces all over the room, I decided to make standardized templates. I spent a few years developing pattern making skills to cut the construction time in half and allowed my to make the exact same thing over and over again.
These skills came in handy when I made my second holster and accidently disovered a way to make a well fitting holster WITHOUT the pistol. Over the past 8 years this has been refined to the four sizes of holsters that accomodate the single action pistols used in CAS - No wet molding required. Not to mention the Shell and Bullet Slides used in the sport. My goal, and pleasure, is to share as much information as I can with folks to help make their lives easier without compromising quality.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Here are some dimensions posted by Outrider on the "show us yer stuff" thread that can add to this one.
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Title: Re: Leathersmiths.....show us yer stuff!!!
Post by: outrider on October 07, 2007, 09:31:58 AM
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Marshall:
The stitch spacing is as follows:
20 gauge single loop...1 3/4" on the loop and 7/8" on the slide
20 gauge double loop..2 3/8" on the loop and 1 3/4" on the slide (as shown in picture)
12 gauge sinlge loop....2 1/8" on the loop and 1" on the slide (as shown in picutre)
12 gauge double loop..2 7/8" on the loop and 1 7/8" on the slide
This should work for you
Outrider
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Title: Re: Leathersmiths.....show us yer stuff!!!
Post by: outrider on October 13, 2007, 07:16:57 AM
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Quote from: Travis Morgan on October 08, 2007, 06:21:51 PM What about for .357 and .45? Thanks in advance.
Travis sorry for the delay
.45 Colt....1 3/8" on the loop and 5/8" on the belt
.38/.357..1 1/8" on the loop and 9/16" on the belt
.32 cal. ..1" on the loop and 1/2" on the belt
.500 S&W mag...1 1/2" on the loop and 5/8" on the belt
105mm hozitzer....heheheh your on your own :D :D ::) ::)
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Well I'm getting ready to stitch my cartridge loops and was wondering how you folks do them? I am hand stitching about 25 to 30 loops and wasn't exactly sure where to begin. I've read the posts in the FAQ on the cartridge loops but still am not fully understanding, I don't see a way to use a two needle stitch easily to achieve the look that is shown in the FAQ post. If I go up and then diagonally across and up and so on I'm missing the trick of getting both threads back underneath to begin the next loop. If I use two needles how do you tie off the thread at the end of each side of a loop? There are only three or four stitches per loop, I was going to use waxed thread as I always do but now I'm thinking of using a stitching awl but I still would like to know how I should finish the stitch at the end of each loop. I plan on lining the belt so that the stitches won't be seen. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Robert
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I usually sew my loops separately, although it wastes a little bit of thread with the tails leftover from 25 loops or so.
Currently I am trying to sew one with continuous thread, and had to have 1 hole above and below the loop material to get it to work. It worked well, but seems to take much longer to sew than doing one loop at a time.
DM
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I prefer to sew each loop individually......just my .02 :)
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I stitch mine separately, too. I start in a couple stitches from the top and work to the edge then back down all the way and back up finishing a couple stitches from the bottom. That doubles the stitching at the ends and helps prevent un-raveling. I tie it with a buried knot on the last stitch then run the outer needle back through the next hole and trim the ends.
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Thanks guys, I was hoping it was something like you've all mentioned. Once I finish it I'll get some pictures up.
Robert
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Marshal Will; So that's how you do it. I have avoided the continuous multi loop system as I thought having the cross-over exposed to wear was a weak point. I stitch each loop separately, but have left the knot in a raggle-tail mess.
What do you do. Tie a square (reef) knot and pull it into the stitch hole? Or just an overhand knot?
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Howdy, Pards,
I stitch each loop inidividually, a do the lockstitch, rather than double needle. There are a couple of reasons for doing it this way, which I'll get to in a moment. I lay out the location of the stitch lines on the belt using a pattern I developed long ago, depending on the cartridge. One hole above where the cartridge loop will lie, and one below, so the stitches will keep the top and bottom of the loop held down to the belt body. Forty-four and forty-five caliber require 5/8" between the stitch lines for each loop. Others vary. The distance between stitching lines on the loop piece varies somewhat depending on the thickness of the loop material (4-5 oz, but this can vary between .072-.078" thick, ideally). I lay these out with a dividers, marking the line where the stitching will go. I use a special tool, I made (#17 steel nails with the heads cut off, and pushed into holes drilled in a small steel block at intervals about 7-1/2 stitches per inch) to mark where the needle will penetrate. I start on the SECOND hole mark from the top, stitch down to the bottom, and then go back up to the top of the loop strip, and then back down several stitches, so the thread overlaps. I run the loose end through the loop formed in the thread by the Speedi-stitcher TWICE on the last stitch, and then pull them down into the leather.
Now, since I do this for a living, I cheat...! I use a Juki sewing machine! Saves me about half the time per cartridge loop. And time is money. But before I got the machine, I did stitch by hand this way. ;)
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Howdy All
I use the method WC taught me, for doing bullet loops, which is continuous, I use the saddle stitch for this, if I do a lined belt , all the stitches are cemented in when you put in your liner, when I do this type of loop sewing I just cross over to the next loop without sewing in between, and pull my thread taunt, but don't over tighten, and start on the next loop, when I get to the end of my thread , I'll back stitch two or three stitch holes , cut the thread off and then start a length of thread for next batch of loops, it goes quick this way and everything is tight, if I stitch an unlined belt with loops, I will sew in the cross over from one loop to the other, and then tap down the stitching as best I can into the leather,
tEN wOLVES ;) :D ;D
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I've always done mine continuous.
Start with a stitch below the leather used for the cartridge then next stitches go through the belt and the cartridge leather (CL).
Then it ends above the CL in a column. I then punch two diagonals in the gunbelt and use those to stitch my way back tot he bottom to start the next loop. Continue in this NNNNNNN pattern to the end. It's held my cartridges on my belt for 12 years so far without issues. I don't glue anything but I guess you could.
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I thought I had it figured, I'm gonna have to practice some stitches tonight. Do the majority of you recommend a stitch above and below the strap to secure the loops or just stitch the strap only.
Thanks again
Robert
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I stitched my loops with the saddle stitch but used the machine sewing pattern. In other words I sewed from top to bottom on outside and completely up the inside diagonally to get back to the top for the next loop. This always involved four of the diagonal stitches laying under each loop, out of sight. I tried them all and in the end decided this was actually not much long overall and rendered the most attractive results. The four prong punch also made this job much quicker and easier.
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I do above and below, either way I do it.
DM
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What do you do. Tie a square (reef) knot and pull it into the stitch hole? Or just an overhand knot?
I don't know what it's called but, on thicker leather, instead of cinching the last stitch, I leave a small loop on either side. Then I loop one needle through one side and the other one in the opposite direction. When I cinch the stitch, the knot gets hidden in the leather. This is the way I was showed to do saddles. If the leather is thin, I'll loop only one side so it isn't too much to pull into the stitch.
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Howdy
If I'm doing a lined belt I jump my stitches on the backside. ( see attached pix)
If it is an unlined belt I put a deep stitch groove so I can bury the stitches so they don't get nicked.
WC
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WC, I was hoping you would jump in here with your method, on my last post I mentioned that everyone should check out your method on the FAC/HOW TOO's, but then I double checked and noticed it wasn't there, so I deleted that part, it would be a great help to a lot of pards if you could post your method there, after learning from you on sewing my bullet loops, it all came together, and it made a hard job easy and more pleasurable, I hope I'm not over stepping myself on this, but there is a big need for some of your straight forward instruction. ??? ::) :D
tEN wOLVES ;) :D ;D
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Howdy
If I'm doing a lined belt I jump my stitches on the backside. ( see attached pix)
If it is an unlined belt I put a deep stitch groove so I can bury the stitches so they don't get nicked.
WC
WC,
Is that the deep stitch groove to the left that is so faint in the picture? Also are the two holes just connected by the groove and no other holes in the diagonal strip between them.
Robert
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WC,
Is that the deep stitch groove to the left that is so faint in the picture? Also are the two holes just connected by the groove and no other holes in the diagonal strip between them.
Robert
Casio, you want to use your free hand stitch groover to remove some leather where ever your stitching is going to lay, this helps to keep the thread from wearing, it's a big help in reducing wear on your thread, and helps keep things tight. just use the groover to remove enough leather so the thread will lay sunk in it, from hole too hole, if that's what your asking.
TW ;) ;D
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Hey TW,
That is kind of what I was asking, I use my free hand groove tool on all my thread areas. In the pictures I see clearly the thread on one set but can't tell if that is another set on the far left layed into the groove. Am I correct thinking that I come out of the last hole then into the first hole of the next loop and I just put my thread into the groove to bury it? I hope that makes sense the way I'm asking.
Robert
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Thanks Marshal Will; I will try it out on my NWMP combination pistol/carbine cartridge belt. (check out Rattlesnake Jack's thread on carrying .45-75 ammo.)
Here's the link;
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,23054.msg298037.html#msg298037
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Hey TW,
That is kind of what I was asking, I use my free hand groove tool on all my thread areas. In the pictures I see clearly the thread on one set but can't tell if that is another set on the far left layed into the groove. Am I correct thinking that I come out of the last hole then into the first hole of the next loop and I just put my thread into the groove to bury it? I hope that makes sense the way I'm asking.
Robert
Casio, you are using a needle on each end aren't you ?, if so as in the picture when you make your cross over you can see how the one thread goes over to the start of the next loop, and one thread over the top of that, then you put the needle on the outside edge through the other hole with the other thread from underneath, and now you are starting your figure eight saddle stitch over again, do this to the end and then cross over again and start over, what WC is showing you is the two different ways you can crossover, which are straight across, or going up and down to cross over. When you know where your stitching lines are going to be, it is easy to use your free hand groover to groove all these lines first before you start sewing, once you get the hang of this method you will learn to appreciate it, again there are many ways to do things, this is just the one that works well for me , and I appreciate this method more and more every time I use it. If you start to run out of thread, just back stitch 2 or3 stitches and cut the thread off, then with new thread start all over on the next loop, keep doing this until you get to the end, then back stitch 3 stitches and cut off the excess thread, and that's it, in the picture you're looking at, this is just a piece of scrap leather WC is using to demonstrate the process, all those other lines you see don't have anything to do with what he is trying to get across. If I screwed up on any of this WC will make any corrections, I'll keep my fingers crossed. ??? ::) :D
tEN wOLVES ;) :D ;D
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Thanks Marshal Will; I will try it out on my NWMP combination pistol/carbine cartridge belt. (check out Rattlesnake Jack's thread on carrying .45-75 ammo.)
Here's the link;
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,23054.msg298037.html#msg298037
Thanks for the link, Sir Charles. That was a good read. I love those musket stocks on the '76 carbines. That makes a great shooter.
Be sure to post a picture of the belt you make. Those combo belts are really interesting.
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Howdy
Sorry for the confussion in the pix. That was a piece of scrap I did the demo on and it had some test grooves from my adj V gouge.
I will find all the pix in my sewing loops and post them.
WC
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Howdy All
This is how I learned to lay out the spacing from John Bianchi’s holster video
and How I sew bullet loops.
First dampen a piece of scrap leather that’s the same as what you’re going to make the loops from. Using two straight edges lay the leather over one bullet and force it down with the rulers on each side. Then use a pair of wing dividers to see how wide that space is. That is the spacing you’ll mark on the gunbelt.
Now measure the space marked by the two rulers when you lay out the leather flat. That is the spacing to mark on the loop leather. You multiply that size by the number of bullets you want to have. I put a ¾ inch tab on each end of the loops.
Now I use a 3/32 4 prong chisel punch. I set one prong over the edge of the leather for spacing and punch the holes in the loop leather.
Now lay a very light guide line on the belt the length of the loops. Mark the spacing of the stitch lines with the wing dividers. Lay the loop leather on the guide line and lightly re-punch the loop leather at each stitch line. Use the correct holes for each one. Don’t forget to punch one hole above and below the loop leather. After that I go back and finish punching the belt all the way through. If you try to punch all the way through the loop leather and the belt you’ll make too big a hole in the loop leather.
The pix are numbered in order.
Now for the sewing.
If I’m doing a lined gunbelt I sew up one line then jump to the next line on the back side. You can jump right across and sew down the next line or jump down to the bottom of the next line and sew up. If I’m sewing an un-lined belt I punch down and across to the bottom of the next line and sew to it. When you do this I suggest you put a stitch groove and run an overstitch wheel over the stitches to push the threads down so the bullets don’t hang up on them.
If you have any questions let me know.
WC
http://s394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/cowboywc/Sewing%20Loops/
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Thanks Wayne :D ;D
This will be a big help to every one, and Casio you now have it in living color.
Maybe Marshal Will can put this in the FAC/HOW TOO's
Thanks again WC ;D
tEN wOLVES ;) :D ;D
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WC,
Thanks for the pictures that helps big time, I'll give it a go tonight after work.
Thanks to everyone for all their help and tips.
Robert
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This is a good thread. I suppose it should be merged with our other one on cartridge loops in the FAQ. I'll do so later when I have time.
Later - Great information in both threads. These two topics are now merged so we can find them in the FAQ thread.
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Thanks Will 8)
TW :D ;D
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anybody know what the spacing(belt and loop) is for 45-70 loops?
Got a request for this but I dont have a cartridge handy!
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45-70s fit in my 45 Colt loops just fine. Should be the same measurement.
DM
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Howdy Farmer
+1
Dalton is right, your spacing for the 45/70 is the same as 45 long Colt, but it is better to use a wider loop like 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" this gives the bullet more stability on the belt and will help keep the bullets from twisting around, and it still looks good, I prefer the 1 1/2" loop for this. IMHO. You probably already knew that, but I thought for those that didn't , that I would throw this in.
tEN wOLVES ;) :D ;D
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Thanks a ton guys,..I do have PLENTY 45colts on hand ;D was hoping they were pretty close!
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1 1/2 fer sure, thats what Jerry used for the Quigley rig.
Ten Wolves, did you take lessons from Jerry too? :)
MS
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1 1/2 fer sure, thats what Jerry used for the Quigley rig.
Ten Wolves, did you take lessons from Jerry too? :)
MS
I consider myself lucky, my mentor was CowboyWC, and still is, I don't know Jerry, but I'm sure he is a good teach too. I have found along with having our FAC/AND HOW TOO's, that keeping notes and a note book, has been a big help, when I need information that applies to things that I make, I keep all these things in my shop so they're handy, makes my life much easier.
tEN wOLVES ;) :D ;D
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I hear ya Ten Wolves, I finally got my new shop done up, organized with a filing system and the tools are where I kin finnd em.
Only took 50 yrs. ;D
Slick
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Can someone point me to some How To information on woven cartridge loops? I see Chuck Burrows refer to them on the first page of the FAQ thread on the subject of cartridge loops, but from then on, the thread is all about sewing loops.
I suppose that ought to tell me something: people generally sew loops rather than use the woven or semi woven method of dealing with loops. But then Chuck says he uses woven loops and, well he’s Chuck Burrows! That’s like saying E.F. Hutton around here.
I’m assuming there is a prescribed size and weight of loop material and size of bag punch or something like it, plus a certain distance between the loops. I’m wondering what, if anything is used to anchor those loops down, and maybe that’s where the semi portion comes in.
I’m also wondering why people prefer one method of loop making over another. Some comments on the pros and cons of each method would be a great thing/
I’ve avoided making loops for as long as I can, but the time for foot dragging is over. As always your help is greatly appreciated. JD
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Howdy JD
I've only used woven loops since I started way back when. I prefer them because in time all loops will stretch a bit and it's very easy to re-wet the loops pull them tight and reattach at each end.
I use fancy Chicago screws on the ends only (excepy for a belt with ALOT of loops then I'll use one in the center)and 4-5 oz. leather for the actual loops. The width of the leather for the loop is subject to the cartidge, you would obviuosly use a narrower one for .22 than you would a .45.
I'll dig out one of my punching giudes and get you some measurements.
Ned
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Thanks for that info Ned. I should have known an experienced guy like you would have had some good info on this subject.
So it sounds like you start with the loop material on the outside of the belt, anchor it down with a Chicago screw, then start weaving in and out through pre-punched slots, then pop it out and anchor it on the other end with another Chicago screw.
I use 38 caliber ammo, so again I assume I could use cartridges to wrap the leather strap around to form the loops. I have a ½ inch bag punch, so I’m wondering it that would be wide enough for use with 38 ammo.
Talking myself through this, I have no idea of the spacing for the slots, but I guess a guy could work that one out by trial and error, which is how I do most everything!
I look forward to seeing if I’ve got the general idea down or not
Thanks Ned, and hang in there friend, people are praying for you and your health situation. JD
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JD, I will need to check some of my stuff and see where its at BUT I think ammo strap weaving is covered in the belt pattern set by Will Ghormley and also in the Holster DVD by Pleasant Vally Saddle Shop. I have used woven more over the past several years but find that most fokes seem to prefer seams, har har har, but sewn does lay flat and will not print on the back of lined belts. I use a 3/4" single slot for most cowboy ammunition and make my loop material from 4/5oz leather.
I am really getting beat up right now by a new fast draw holster but hopefully it will resolve out one way or another within the next few days and i can get back to another simple cartridge slide photo project. This one was going to be about sewn cartridge loops and show the way I used to hand sew these things. I thought it was a kinda uniqe and quick method at the time. Ill do a quick alternate on weaving the cart loops at the same time. I have not forgotten that I owe you a small package and have promised printed plans to a couple of pards here. They are printed out and waiting for the lazy one to get into gear. From what I have seen JD, you are making much better looking WB holsters than I could hope for!
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JD, my mentor taught me to use the slot and weave method many years ago.I do pretty much as Ned and Bob but I usually affix my ends by rivets or sewing.Dave :)
Below is a link to a tutorial a frined did, maybe it will help.
http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=15872&st=0&p=112971&hl=cartridge%20loops&fromsearch=1&#entry112971 (http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=15872&st=0&p=112971&hl=cartridge%20loops&fromsearch=1&#entry112971)
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OK JD here's some clarification and more info.
Use two slots for every cartidge and when you lace it start from the inside and then up and down around loaded rounds, I use dummys I made up just for this. Also the loop leather is wetted to the same degree you would use for wet molding a holster.
The spacing I use for .38 is 5/16" between the loops. I mark out the spacing on the edge of the belt with a small pencil mark and lay them out with a small T-square where they'll go on the belt. When you punch the slots always make sure sure you punch on the same side of the line. Double and triple check how many slots you punch for 2 slots for each. I've made mistakes more than once by not paying close attention to this detail.
I'm not very good at giving instructions so if I left something out or you have more questions just ask away! ;D
BTW I may go down but I'm not going down with out a fight or a smile on my face! 8)
Ned
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JD,
I use the weaving method for bullet loops.
decided to do it this way due to not wanting to hand sew all them loops on.
i use 4 oz leather for loop material 3/4" wide. not sure how long to make the strap as i usually have lots of excess after im done weave the loops. have never taken the time to measure the length.
i use 5/8" bag punch because when i weave the leather in it hides the slot. 3/4" slot i can see part of it after i weave the loops.
i weave the leather up from the back around the shell and then back down the same slot. go on to next loop.
i have sewed the ends of the leather loops and have used rivits, conchos to finish off the loops.
hidecrafter has a nice pattern pack for cowboy action shooting accessiores. the pattern pack has small belt pouch, shotgun shell slide and a loading strip.
i use the loading strip slot placement from this pattern pack as the slot placement for my belts with bullet loops.
this slot placement guide works well for 38/357 to 45 long colt.
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Kuncklehead, thanks a bunch for that info. I really appreciate reading all the different ways that guys do this sort of thing, because it gives me lots of ideas and lots of latitude on how to accomplish making loops.
When I see you at the carving class in March I'll bring back the DVD you loaned me. See you then if not before. JD
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Yep this website sure does give us newbies some answers.
just gotta love everyone on here that will help out where they can.
one question i have is how do you keep the bag punch lined up straight each time???
straight meaning 90 degrees to the belt. i have tried to use a square to line up against the bag punch but the slot still seams to be off sometimes.
any suggestions would be a great help
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Knucklehead, I use a T square and scribe a light line just a little proud/longer than the size bag punch I'm going to use, you'll find you will now have this line to center your punch on both sides, but remember just a light scratch, just enough so that you can see it on both sides when centered, works for me. if I'm making slits for a two slit bullet loop,( a slit on either side of the bullet ) I'll make the slit with my knife about a 1/16" narrower than the strip of 4 to 5 ounce veg -tan leather I'm using for the bullet loops, and I'll use the smallest hole punch at the end of each slit and punch a hole, but be careful not to make the slit longer, you want a tight loop, the the small hole punch will help to ward off any tearing at the ends, I learned this from Chuck Burrows in one of his post.
tEN wOLVES :)
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Now that's great info 10 Wolves, both the bag punch line up, which I also have a problem with, and the hole punches at the ends. It's the little things like this that make this forum so valuable; and its guys like you and so many others here that sharing your skills with us. Thanks 10 Wolves, Ned Buckshot, Knucklehead, Dave Cole, Slowhand Bob; you guys are the best
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JD I have several of these to make today so I'll take the camera along and see if I can't show a little step-by-step.. I'll be back.
Wes
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Wes, that would be great. I've noticed you have cartridge loops on some of your holsters, which looks like a great idea. I'm looking forward to your next post.
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I'll try to do this with as few words a possible .. what I do is Not the only, or best, way..just how I do it .."most of the time ;D
I still have much to learn so if anyone feels they can improve or correct me on something..then please do.. I want to learn mor too. :D ;)
Some of my tools.. I have found that stuff used for quilting can be quite handy around the Leather shop.. The (big) rotary cutter, self healing mat, and Clear rule is the best thing for leatherwork. It will cut through 16/18oz leather in one pass ..
The carpet knife works awsome...."For Carpet"..LOL ;D (I couldn't resist ;))
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cut your loop leather wider than finish and split it to desired thickness.. It will stretch and narrow as it is split so I start with at least 1 1/4 to have a finish of 3/4.
I use the best leather for my loops.. the stuff cut lenthwise right along the back.just under where I take my belts from.. this will result in loops that last and are easier to work... cut you loops from the belly and you will have a mess...It is hard enough to edge 4/5oz leather let alone if it is cut from the stretch. ;)
I will be using 3/4x1/8" bag punch for my slots so I will finish cut my loop leather to 7/8..to keep things tight
Rule of thumb for a full weave is 3" per loop.at least for the 41,44,45,and 45-70.. this is a little long but it is way better to have extra at the end of a Qugley belt than to come up short. ;D.. don't ask me how I know... ::)
The 6 loop 44 slide I made here took exactly 16" of loop leather.. I cut mine at 20" to start. this gave me some extra and some to cut a point and skive so it would be easier to lace the loops.
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while my loop leather is moist from splitting I take it to my stone and compress the fiibers with my Cobler's hammer.. this seems to really drive a lot of the stretch out of the leather. I don't ruin the leather here, but I do compress it.. Not nessasary and maybe this is a bad idea...but it is what I do. When someone gives me $150+ for a belt it is because it took me all day.. little things like this are unnoticed but they sure add time to the product....and hopefully quality. :D
Cut you leather to the 7/8
I then run my edge groover down the edge and sometimes the stitch wheel. I believe that this adds a nice look but it also compresses the grain a little more along the edges..again to help make the loops last longer... I made this one from an antler but Tandy sells a nice adjustable one. Now edge the leather.. this can be tricky but if the leather is just the right wetness it is easy.
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I then lay out my loops...I use 5/8 space for 44/45's.. On this slide it will hold 6 rounds so to keep things even I will do the math acounting for the 1/8 lost from the width of the punch...
so we have a 4 1/2"slide width= 5/8/1st loop/*/*/*/*/6th/ 3/4.. you can see that as the slots are punch it will all be to one side of the line so that on the last loop the 1/8 will be remove for the 3/4 to cause there to be an even 5/8 on either side fot the rivits.. much harder to explain... ;D
I use to connect the dots so that I had a good straight line to put my punc against but now I usually do not.. except on 45-70 Quigley belts where the punch used is a 1 1/4x1/4"
Add you loop leather and stitch/lace/Chicago/or rivet it in place... on some things like Quiglies and rifle slings with loops I add an extra slot so the the loop end will be to the outside..(see Quigly..last pic)
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I now pull my loops .. on this one it is a full weave... on the half weave you would have two slots for each..
Full weave problems... the loops loosen as the belt is bent and tighten as it is straightened..This style just will not work for me on my rifle slings... but is does work great on shell slides and and belts as long as the loops are formed while you curve the belt... (and if the customer understands to load it with cartridges while the belt is curved and never smash it flat with cartridges in the loops. :-\
I have found that .025 is a good number for forming the loops a little small.. so for 44/45's I use a 41mag to form the loops. For 38's I have some aluminum arrow shaft of the proper (smaller) dia.
Be warned here ...you will hear all the timne from guys that think you can soak your loops and when it dryes it will shrink... Wel yes&no.. you have to consider that the leather will be thicker when wet so as it drys it can acctually loosen(make larger) the loop holes.
For heavy cartridge belts I now much prefur to make a sheild of loops and then stitch it on the belt.. this really looks nice and it doesn't cut a hole bunch of holes in the belt.. that and my belts can sometimes aproach 5/16-3/8 in thickness..which is not fun to punch slots in.. ;D
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and now some completed stuf with loops :D
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Freedom, I will be greatly surprised if this thread doesn't get the "Sticky" treatment. I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate the effort it took to document this process. It's going to take me some time to absorb all of this.
I can think of several questions but for now I'll just ask one. The last picture you posted of the completed belts (very nice by the way) the top one has the loops in an added strip: how are those loops anchored down? Are they sewn down when you sew the strip onto the belt?
Now I'm going to take what you've done here and download it onto my computer so I will have it for future reference.
Thanks again Wes, very nice work, Jeff
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JD,
If you look real close you will notice that all of the samples use rivets to secure the loops
Freedom...very nice indeed.
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yep, they are rivited.. I do stitch some of them depending on the apliction,.. I really like the Chicago idea that Ned shared earlier.
One way that I really like, especially on my quigley belts is to Lace the loop ends with heavy alum tan flat lace with a 3 hole pattern.. kind of like the back latigo billet on a saddle.
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Thanks for the eyes on demo's and instructions, yer one of the best of the best.
I've learned a lot here and do appreciate yer time and talent.
I have always stayed away from the loops as the belts get too heavy for my line of business
I did make an ammo belt for my Sidekick and it turned out okay for my first one, Ima stitch and sew fan, by hand.
Thanks again Freedom
MS
C. Screws are cool, just dunt glue the threads. BTDT ::)
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Freedom , great project. I especially liked the way you added the loops top the holsters loop, this is much better than sewing them on the holster body. I look forward to your doing more like this as I am an old thief at heart!
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Thanks a bunch Freedom. You have given me that liittle shove that I needed to try some loops on my next belt. And that is some very nice looking work there also.
JD, once again I need to say thanks to you for asking a great question.
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Howdy Freedom
Very nice tutorial, and well explained, we'll have to see about adding this to our Fax/How too's
Thanks for taking the time to do this, it will be appreciated my all
tEN wOLVES ;D
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Thanks Freedom I learned several new techniques from your tutorial your time to do this is much appreciated.
Wiley
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Outrider, thanks for your eagle eye. I did not notice that fact.
Gun Butcher, to paraphrase Forest Gump “Ignorant is as Ignorant does”
There isn’t a better place to ask questions than this place, what with all the knowledgeable guys who are so willing to share their expertise with rookie like me. I always want to be sure they know much I appreciate it. JD
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I completely agree JD. My problem seems to be asking the right questions ??? ::)
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No matter how old I get, I still ask dumb questions and get good to excelent answers.
Thanks Pards,
Rookie ol Timer Slick ;D
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Thanks Pards, Being my first rig it just can't be replaced, but then........
I like my black beauty too.
Tawked too much on the phone last night, all night wid my Sidekick down in Gator Country.
I didn't get the mate done on the second holster. I think it's going to be a fairly good match color wise like did I use 2 coats er 3?
Hope to have it posted this week end.
Thanks
MS
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Yes Skeeter, we are nuts :P
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Y'all were tallking about making individual stitches for each side of the bullet loop ....
As an old retired medic, I have found that Surgeon's work great ... I mean, this knot was designed to hold flesh together in stitches, and what is leather but dead flesh?
There is a good pic on this page; I usually lock it with another overhand to make sure it won't come undone ....
http://www.troop7.org/Knots/Surgeon.html
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Good info.....
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Where does one get a smaller piece of 4/5 oz leather?
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Where does one get a smaller piece of 4/5 oz leather?
Tandy/LF sells 4/5 oz veg tan single shoulders - they avg about 6-7 sq ft...........
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Tandy/LF sells 4/5 oz veg tan single shoulders - they avg about 6-7 sq ft...........
Thanks Chuck.
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You can buy 4/5 ounce (or any weight) strips in any width from Zack White Leather.
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This thread deserves a fresh bump.
I have a belt rig with 13 bullet loops 44/45 sewn on it. I'd really like to add additional loops to it. I was thinking about replacing the original 13 loops it came with, with a new strip of leather ....and make it 25 bullets loops, to match my 1858 .45LC conversion.
I was thinking of paying someone to do it for me, but maybe I'll just tackle this myself.
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Now this is a very good thread. About to build a shotgun cartridge belt. Great read.
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Hi,
I have had very good luck using a polypro/cotton blend webbing for shotgun and .45-70 Loops ....
This is my source; I know for a fact that they will take orders and ship down to six feet ....
http://www.seattlefabrics.com/
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Giving this a fresh bump for all the new folks like myself
too good information to bury the thread.
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These threads aren't buried. The FAQ thread has links to a handful of great informational or instructive threads.
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Thanks for the info Marshall Will :D
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St8LineLeatherSmith,
Soldiers started experimenting with canvas loops and belts during the period of the Indian Wars (Hence the Fairweather Christian Belt et al).Mr Burrows will indubitably have the answers ... I just found something that LOOKS like canvas-but sews much easier than leather ....
I made the loops for my holster belt out of leather,but my shotgun belt has polypro loops:
[IMG] (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/WaddWatsonEllis/media/FinishedHolstersandFinishedShotgunLoopedBeltwithledge.jpg.html)
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The advice here is for 4/5 oz. leather. What are the measurements for 3/4 oz for 45 Colt? The measurement on the loop and on the belt?
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The advice here is for 4/5 oz. leather. What are the measurements for 3/4 oz for 45 Colt? The measurement on the loop and on the belt?
For .45 LC I space the stitch line on the belt 5/8". For 4-5 oz. leather I use 1-9/32" to 1-5/16" spacing on the loop (flat), depending on the actual thickness of the leather. For 3-4 oz, (which I generally do NOT use) I would probably tighten the spacing on the leather strip to 1-1/4". You may have to experiment a little. I cut my strips for .45 LC 1/4" wide (high when sewn on the belt).
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Thanks, Trailrider.
I'm going with 3/4 oz. because some folks think it's more PC.
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Skeeter,
5/8 on the belt.
About 1 1/4 on the loop leather but you really need to fold the loop leather you are using over the bullet and measure to get the best fit. I have had it vary with different leather and sides.
I make my loops 1 inch wide which seems to be the most PC from the period gear I have studied and have in my possession.
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Thanks, Cliff.