Author Topic: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.  (Read 3859 times)

Offline powderhombre

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.44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« on: August 13, 2020, 10:31:35 AM »
My Inter Arms Virginian Dragoon ( stainless) did not, very well, digest my load of 40gns Goex 3f, compressed by bullet seating, wax paper over powder, smidge of SPG between the wax paper and the 240grn semi wadcutter AOL 1.610. Loaded 5 rounds, slid in the chambers perfectly. Cocked hammer, fired. Felt like you would expect. Went to cock the hammer again and the action was jammed. hammer would barely move back. Pulled the cylinder pin and jiggled things around and the cylinder came out. I inspected all the cartridges and the fired case, everything looked good.  Obviously not fouled, I loaded it again and fired with same results. Being concerned I got it unloaded and put it away. Before leaving the range I had an idea. I put one cartridge in the gun and fired it, the action turned when cocked. I inserted 3 rounds every other chamber and all three rounds fired and the action cycled perfectly. I put it away being confused as to what the problem might be. Oh I did fire 5 factory magnum loads with no problems what so ever. upon cleaning the gun, everything looks to be in perfect shape. Any ideas on what may be going on?

Offline DJ

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2020, 11:50:13 AM »
I can only provide additional food for thought.  I have loaded .45 Colt blackpowder cartridges for my Schofield with various combinations of wax, grease, and wax paper-under-grease wads.  A hard wax wad under a grease wad worked the best for me.  For some reason the worst fouling I got occurred when I used wax paper--I think there is something about the ash it produces that allows it into every crevice and makes things "sticky" even though the fouling doesn't look very heavy.

As to your problem, is it possible that a tiny bit of fouling is getting under the rim of the adjacent cartridge during recoil so that the cartridge head is a little proud and jams as it drags against the recoil shield during rotation?  It wouldn't take much fouling and would be similar to a high primer, especially if  your headspace is tight.  That might explain why the every-other-chamber and single cartridge both worked--no adjacent cartridge.

Good luck!
--DJ

Offline Drydock

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2020, 12:43:01 PM »
You crammed 40 grns into a 35 grn case.  Your primers backed out.
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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #3 on: Today at 08:39:29 AM »

Offline powderhombre

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2020, 01:34:08 PM »
Ah could be the problem I suppose. I will adjust my powder charge and see if that helps. thank you.

Offline Abilene

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2020, 01:48:58 PM »
But if primers were backing out, I'm not sure how it would work better by loading every other chamber.  Loading just one, sure, because then you eject the round right after shooting it and it doesn't rotate around to the tight spot on the recoil shield.  Easy to verify, though, just look at the spent primer of the rounds that hung up to see if backed out / scraped.

Offline greyhawk

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2020, 01:57:25 PM »
You crammed 40 grns into a 35 grn case.  Your primers backed out.

Yeah - might not be the problem but musta leaned pretty hard on the handle to get it in - despite assumptions to the contrary a 44/40 case holds more powder than the 44 mag - I am guessing about 3 grains difference - expect someone will yell "yr wrong" but I dont reckon wrong by much .

Offline greyhawk

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2020, 02:01:35 PM »
But if primers were backing out, I'm not sure how it would work better by loading every other chamber.  Loading just one, sure, because then you eject the round right after shooting it and it doesn't rotate around to the tight spot on the recoil shield.  Easy to verify, though, just look at the spent primer of the rounds that hung up to see if backed out / scraped.

Do you reckon the primer of the next round is backing out when he fires ? could be - there would be a heck of a lot of pressure in that case from that big boolit and the 40 grain charge.

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2020, 02:06:29 PM »
Primers don't back out on a full charge of powder. The primers back out with weak charges.
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Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2020, 02:44:24 PM »
You may need a better crimp for a better burn and a better boom!! 
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Offline wildman1

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2020, 02:52:21 PM »
The primers actually do back out on a full load but the case is driven back against the recoil shield and reseats them.
wM1
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Offline powderhombre

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2020, 03:02:29 PM »
some clarity. I drop tubed 39.5 grains 3f by weight after weighing 40grns by volume. This put the powder level in the case almost a 1/4" below the case mouth. finger placed the wax paper wad to keep the SPG from contaminating the BP. a small amount of SPG was added by hand to the cartridge. The bullet placed on top and seated with the lee bullet seating die after careful adjustment to get the case in the proper crimp groove. Lee Factory crimp die used. I did not have to lean hard on the handle at all. All loads(10) measured remarkably 1.609 AOL. The spent cases do indeed show signs of backed out primers. The gun seemed to have a decent amount of recoil and the fired cases when re sized showed sign of expansion. So I don't know...

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2020, 03:21:09 PM »
The primers actually do back out on a full load but the case is driven back against the recoil shield and reseats them.
wM1

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Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2020, 03:26:20 PM »
some clarity. I drop tubed 39.5 grains 3f by weight after weighing 40grns by volume. This put the powder level in the case almost a 1/4" below the case mouth. finger placed the wax paper wad to keep the SPG from contaminating the BP. a small amount of SPG was added by hand to the cartridge. The bullet placed on top and seated with the lee bullet seating die after careful adjustment to get the case in the proper crimp groove. Lee Factory crimp die used. I did not have to lean hard on the handle at all. All loads(10) measured remarkably 1.609 AOL. The spent cases do indeed show signs of backed out primers. The gun seemed to have a decent amount of recoil and the fired cases when re sized showed sign of expansion. So I don't know...

Why many shy away from compressed loads is beyond me. The 44-40's were compressed .17" to .21" in order to get 40gr by weight into the case. The quality of the black powder dictates the volume needed vs weight. Semi-Balloonhead cases only held 3gr more than modern brass.

Enough pressure is needed for the case to slam into the blast shield in order to push the primer back into the  pocket. Hope that was a bit more clear.
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Offline powderhombre

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2020, 04:37:01 PM »
More clarity. Once fired Winchester brass, Winchester Large Pistol primers. My Colt load of 35gns under a 255 grn cast bullet is standard. I figured 40 grains of powder under a 240 grn cast bullet would be a little more stout, but it is in a 44 magnum gun. I had no worries of hurting the gun or me. Like I said recoil was stout. The Virginian Dragoon is a very robust well made Single Action army with close tolerances . Just for fun I will load 35 grains and use a different brand primer. I did have a thought. The firing pin is mounted in the frame. There is no transfer bar safety. I thought maybe the firing pin stuck in the primer and did not retract. It's the only thing I can think of. But then why the single cartridge and intermittent cartridges working fine?

Offline greyhawk

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2020, 09:52:02 PM »
some clarity. I drop tubed 39.5 grains 3f by weight after weighing 40grns by volume. This put the powder level in the case almost a 1/4" below the case mouth. finger placed the wax paper wad to keep the SPG from contaminating the BP. a small amount of SPG was added by hand to the cartridge. The bullet placed on top and seated with the lee bullet seating die after careful adjustment to get the case in the proper crimp groove. Lee Factory crimp die used. I did not have to lean hard on the handle at all. All loads(10) measured remarkably 1.609 AOL. The spent cases do indeed show signs of backed out primers. The gun seemed to have a decent amount of recoil and the fired cases when re sized showed sign of expansion. So I don't know...

Sounds fine - I have vintage goex from last century here and I would definitely need to "lean on it" to get 40 grains into a 44 mag case - moreso with a 240 grain boolit on top of it  -  (they ARE smaller capacity than a 44/40 - by how much smaller is the only question there).

as for "lean on it" you are compressing with the boolit when you seat it? with a compound press you would not notice much resistance to heavy compression - proly first thing would be hearing the powder grains scrunching in the case.

The fact you dont have the problem when loading alternate chambers has me questioning if something strange is going on like a resonance or some weird concussive effect when you fire an adjacent chamber. For that to happen you would need a compressed charge to create internal tension in the case ?????????? dunno but its interesting .........most complex problems have simple solutions ............. 

Offline greyhawk

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2020, 10:29:02 PM »
Why many shy away from compressed loads is beyond me. The 44-40's were compressed .17" to .21" in order to get 40gr by weight into the case. The quality of the black powder dictates the volume needed vs weight. Semi-Balloonhead cases only held 3gr more than modern brass.

Enough pressure is needed for the case to slam into the blast shield in order to push the primer back into the  pocket. Hope that was a bit more clear.

some more clarity for Bryan  I am definitely NOT one to shy away from compressed (blackpowder) loads  but I do like to do it with a non compound press so I can feel what I am doing - my homemade powder only runs about 90% density - and my loading procedure with the winchesters (44and 38/40) is fill it up till it spills over at the top, tap the case a few times with the spout of the horn I use for dispensing till it all fits in, compress to seating depth in a super simplex press (straight linkage not compound) ..Cant be bothered with drop tubing these small cases unless I am running a chrono test, then I will weigh and drop tube each charge.
These are fun guns with their barrel sights - If I try I can shoot em into about two inches at 50 yards - cant see any better than that anyway and If I could see better proly couldnt hold any better unless I went to a bench.  NO! I cant do 2 inches offhand at 50 yards -  ;D   

Offline Bryan Austin

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2020, 06:07:50 AM »
some more clarity for Bryan  I am definitely NOT one to shy away from compressed (blackpowder) loads  but I do like to do it with a non compound press so I can feel what I am doing - my homemade powder only runs about 90% density - and my loading procedure with the winchesters (44and 38/40) is fill it up till it spills over at the top, tap the case a few times with the spout of the horn I use for dispensing till it all fits in, compress to seating depth in a super simplex press (straight linkage not compound) ..Cant be bothered with drop tubing these small cases unless I am running a chrono test, then I will weigh and drop tube each charge.
These are fun guns with their barrel sights - If I try I can shoot em into about two inches at 50 yards - cant see any better than that anyway and If I could see better proly couldnt hold any better unless I went to a bench.  NO! I cant do 2 inches offhand at 50 yards -  ;D   

Oh yeah, aint it fun???   I forgot about trying to get 240gr bullets in there that may seat deeper than the typical 200gr. I think the originals seat at .300 but even I can't remember that right off.

I shot a few 44 Mags with 200gr and black powder loads years back. Performed just like the 44-40. The 44 Mag cases are stronger so one can compress a bit more than with the 44-40 cases.

fun fun fun  ;D
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Online Ranch 13

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2020, 08:04:19 AM »
 Sounds more like the transfer bar is hanging up on the firing pin.
Compressing powder isn't a problem if you use a compression die.
 Lube the bullet with the SPG, drop the dab of lube on the base of the bullet, and use a wad cut from an old playing card.
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Online Coffinmaker

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2020, 09:37:19 AM »

I have a 44 Mangelem HR Handi rifle I shoot for Plainsman.  Loaded with a full case of BP and a 200Gr bullet, the case shows signs of Blow-By.  The ejector kicks it out just fine but I would be suspect of the cases sticking enough in a revolver to inhibit free rotation of the cylinder.  Maybe.  Dunno.

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Offline Isom

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Re: .44 mag didn't like my BP load.
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2020, 03:15:45 PM »
You stated above that your primers did show small evidence of backing out. May be,, just maybe the cylinder walls are just a little bit rough enough to grip the case just enough before the case slides back to reseat the primer. Maybe a light honing/smoothing of the walls might help. Just a thought. Don't understand about working ok with every other hole loaded though.

 

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