Author Topic: Who carried spencers... (historically research)  (Read 4071 times)

Offline Dakota Widowmaker

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Who carried spencers... (historically research)
« on: November 01, 2005, 03:20:55 PM »
It is interesting to note that not all spencers were returned to the US gubmint at the end of the civil war. (not hardly!!!)

The pony express riders often carried them. (they originally carried a pair of colt navy's or dragoons, but, found that a spencer or sharps was just as important as that second pistol)

[FYI: The pony express went OOB 2 days after the first telegraph message from one cost to the other was sent in Oct. 1861...]

I also read that Spencers were more common in the great plains than in the deep south. (which co-incides with some of the collections I have seen at gunshows and antique firearm dealers...although the two are not directly related)

I tried to do some checking as to what the price was that soldiers and such were able to buy Spencers from the army for... I have heard as little as $25 and as much as $45. (new Rem revolvers in 1865 were only $14...)

[I should note I picked up a pair of Rem1858 Pietta revolvers for $296 and my Spencer is $816]

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: Who carried spencers... (historically research)
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2005, 05:08:36 PM »
Howdy,

In 1902, the Sears Roebuck catalog still sold 56-52 (civilian version of the 56-50) Spencer carbines for $3.65 with 25 cartridges.  They still sold all calibers of Spencer ammo (56-56, 56-52, 56-50,56-46) $1.90 per 100.

In 1895 Montgomery Wards had all calibers of Spencer ammo (56-56, 56-52, 56-50,56-46) $1.94 per 100.

Man, I'D LOVE TO GRAB A BUNCH AT THOSE PRICES<G>


TUOLUMNE LAWMAN
CO. F, 12th Illinois Cavalry  SASS # 6127 Life * Spencer Shooting Society #43 * Motherlode Shootist Society #1 * River City Regulators

Offline Dakota Widowmaker

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Re: Who carried spencers... (historically research)
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2005, 11:04:00 AM »
I thought I heard rumour that someone had made a revolver to shoot 56-55 (or was it 56-50) in a 5 shot fasshion...but I never saw anything beyond just that...rumours.

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Re: Who carried spencers... (historically research)
« Reply #3 on: Today at 09:28:01 AM »

Offline The Yankee Bandit

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Re: Who carried spencers... (historically research)
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2005, 12:58:03 PM »
I would love to verify that there was a pistol made in 56-50.  Then all those Spencer-knockers on the Wire couldn't say that we aren't shooting a pistol caliber rifle!   ;D

Offline Dakota Widowmaker

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Re: Who carried spencers... (historically research)
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2005, 07:16:46 PM »
I only heard that one was made, not sold for wide distribution.

I don't doubt some enterprising smith got ahold of a Rem or S&W break top and managed to fit a 4 or 5 chamber cylinder into it for shooting 56-50.

Heck, a Walker/Dragoon Colt has enough metal in it to keep a 56-50 happy.  :D

Offline Dakota Widowmaker

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Re: Who carried spencers... (historically research)
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2005, 07:29:40 PM »
Forgot to mention, while at the range today (see my range report for more technical info) and old timer showed up next to me and started asking lots of questions.

We got done shooting and we walked over and both got a couple of cokes from the machine. (I have heard Pepsi is Anti-Gun, and no range I have been at carries that brand)

Well, I was asking about who he knew that shot spencers in the area. He said he had heard of a few farmers who had "hand me downs" from long ago.

I guess the story goes like this.

After the Minnesota, Iowa, and Wisconsin volunteers returned from the "the war", many simply kept their arms. Some bought repeaters from other units that were decommisioned. There were those that managed to just "walk away", as it were.

Anyhow, in the 1860s and 1870s, these rifles served multiple purposes. Alot of folks used the rifles for hunting and taking care of varmints. (both 2 legged and 4 legged) Most farmers found it more advantageous to trade their civil war rifles (which were in fair to good condition) for shotguns and single shot rifles.

I heard tell of one farmer who sold his 73 winchester for a double barrel shotgun, ammo, and a milk cow!!!

But I digress.

So, these vets would keep what they used and with stuff they didn't use, either sell it or trade it for stuff they could.

One of the farmers my companion was refering to said his grandfather's "repeater" was stuffed away in an old pair of greasy/oily pants up in the barn. They found it just as they were pulling out the tack and such before tearing the thing down. Supposedly, it was a 56-56 Army rifle. (long barrel)

Why old grand pappy kept it, this gent I was talking to did not know. But, if his relatives were in the war or had taken the rifle in trade, that would make sense.

thought a few folks would want to know. I have absolutely NO WAY of confirming this story, but, from the personal history of a few family farms I know of, it coincides with other stories I have heard. (farmers taking rifles and other items in on trade from boys coming back from the war so they could get farming again)

Offline US Scout

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Re: Who carried spencers... (historically research)
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2005, 08:56:31 AM »
It is interesting to note that not all spencers were returned to the US gubmint at the end of the civil war. (not hardly!!!)

The pony express riders often carried them. (they originally carried a pair of colt navy's or dragoons, but, found that a spencer or sharps was just as important as that second pistol)

[FYI: The pony express went OOB 2 days after the first telegraph message from one cost to the other was sent in Oct. 1861...]


Dakota-

I'm a big fan of the Spencer (own one in fact) but I'm curious about the claim Pony Express riders carried a Spencer. 

Everything I've ever read talks about the need to keep weight down (spare the horses, but still carry more mail).  Boys were preferred since they wanted riders who weighed less than 110 lbs.  They were given one 1851 Colts revolver for protection.  The idea was they were to outrun any threat.  Given that only one rider was lost during the 18 months, either there was minimal threat or they did exactly as intended.

A Spencer weighed about 8.5 lbs but a revolver only about 2 lbs - a net savings of over 6 lbs.  A Dragoon pistol weighed about twice what the 1851 revolver did, again making it too heavy.

The Pony Express existed from Apr 60-Oct 61.  The Spencer received its patent sometime in 1860 and the Army didn't even test it until mid-1861 or so.  I understand the first 1000 produced went to the Army in Dec 1862, but then I haven't found anything on pre-Army production orders, so its possible a civilian version was available sometime in late 1861 or early 1862.

Surplus prices: The Army only sold about 100 Spencers between the end of the war and late 1868.  In Jan 1869, they sold 200 to Argentina at $26 each. 

In Oct 1870, approximately 34,438 Spencers were sold by the government's New York Agency.  Most of these were the 1865 model, but there were some earlier models sold as well.  These went for $20-$25.25 (wholesale).  I expect the mark up was about another $10 by the time it reached the frontier.

I know that the Army authorized soldiers to buy their arms upon discharge, but for the most part I've only seen references to pistols and muskets, not much in the way of selling used carbines, especially the Sharps and Spencers which would go on to be issued to frontier cavalry (the Sharps to be replaced by converted Sharps, and both to be replaced by the 1873 Springfield carbine).

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Who carried spencers... (historically research)
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2005, 02:49:39 PM »
North of the Border:

With the Fenian troubles constituting a significant threat to the peace and security of Canada, and the Snider-Enfield not yet in production, Canada acquired 1300 .56-50 Spencer carbines during 1866.  Britain acquired another 1000 carbines and 2000 rifles that year for use by the Canadian Militia - ownership of these carbines and rifles was transferred to the Dominion of Canada in 1870.


Canadian-service Spencers
(Scanned from The Military Arms of Canada, The Upper Canada Historical Arms Society, 1963.  Additional reference: Defending the Dominion - Canadian Military Rifles, 1855-1955, David W. Edgecombe, 2003.)

For a bit more information on the Fenaian Raids: http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/chrono/1774fenian_e.html
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Dakota Widowmaker

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Re: Who carried spencers... (historically research)
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2005, 04:45:42 PM »
Quote

Dakota-

I'm a big fan of the Spencer (own one in fact) but I'm curious about the claim Pony Express riders carried a Spencer. 

Everything I've ever read talks about the need to keep weight down (spare the horses, but still carry more mail).  Boys were preferred since they wanted riders who weighed less than 110 lbs.  They were given one 1851 Colts revolver for protection.  The idea was they were to outrun any threat.  Given that only one rider was lost during the 18 months, either there was minimal threat or they did exactly as intended.

A Spencer weighed about 8.5 lbs but a revolver only about 2 lbs - a net savings of over 6 lbs.  A Dragoon pistol weighed about twice what the 1851 revolver did, again making it too heavy.

The Pony Express existed from Apr 60-Oct 61.  The Spencer received its patent sometime in 1860 and the Army didn't even test it until mid-1861 or so.  I understand the first 1000 produced went to the Army in Dec 1862, but then I haven't found anything on pre-Army production orders, so its possible a civilian version was available sometime in late 1861 or early 1862.

Surplus prices: The Army only sold about 100 Spencers between the end of the war and late 1868.  In Jan 1869, they sold 200 to Argentina at $26 each. 

In Oct 1870, approximately 34,438 Spencers were sold by the government's New York Agency.  Most of these were the 1865 model, but there were some earlier models sold as well.  These went for $20-$25.25 (wholesale).  I expect the mark up was about another $10 by the time it reached the frontier.

I know that the Army authorized soldiers to buy their arms upon discharge, but for the most part I've only seen references to pistols and muskets, not much in the way of selling used carbines, especially the Sharps and Spencers which would go on to be issued to frontier cavalry (the Sharps to be replaced by converted Sharps, and both to be replaced by the 1873 Springfield carbine).

My information for the Pony Express riders carrying them comes from the book "Orphans Preferred", which is regarded as the most accurate account of the dealings of the Pony.

They mentioned in one chapter that the riders originally carried a pair of colts. After a while, they went back to carrying just a single revolver and a rifle, either a sharps or a spencer. I'll dig out the page and exact quote this evening. (if I can find the book)

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Re: Who carried spencers... (historically research)
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2005, 08:30:54 PM »
Thanks.  I'd like to hear how it was the Pony Express got Spencers so early in their production life.  If the author gives a citation as the source of his information, I'd be interested in that too.


 

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