Ami-Sport 56-50 and Burnside 56-50

[WCR]

I am confused, and lost in the search of the many posts and threads discussing the difference.

Can any of you with greater experience and wisdom than I posses recommend a book, or detailed post or thread that details the differences between the Ami-Sport 56-50 case, bullet, and loaded cartridge and the original centerfire version of the 56-50 that would fit a Model1865 Burnside (with a centerfire breech block)
will the Ami-Sport fit both, but the original 56-50 only fit the original?
I have cases for both, and they measure the same. I have NIB Armi-Sport cartridges, and they measure .512 bullet diameter, I have original 56-50 rimfire cartridges, and the bullets measure .512. I have read that the original should be .520.
I would like to shoot the NIB Armi-Sport cartridges in my original Burnside, but is there a risk?

any information or direction appreciated

WCR

[Jan Buchwald]

If you stick to blackpowder there should be no risk. I use shortened 50-70 and shortene (and formed) 32 brass shot cases in my Burnside Spencer, and a .515 bullet made in a Lee  515/450 mould, reworked to cast a 40 grs bullet. Powder charge is 35 grs 2F, which is what there are room for.

[Herbert]

The main diffrence is the bullet size needed for acuracy,in the AS the groove size is .512 so a bullet of .513 t0.515 will be the best suited for acuracy,whyle the original Burncide will have a groove size of between .518 and just over .520 mine is .523.Because of the 3 groove rifling with wide lands the Burnside will oftern shoot well with a slitly under groove diameter bullet but preforms better with groove diameter bullets.Original BP loads will work fine in AP spencers but after a few shots through a original Spencer the base of the brass will slitly expand making it a tight fit in the AS spencer(this can not be fixed with full lenth sizing but can be fixed by striping the FL sizer die and sizing the casses by using a vice and knocking them out with a rod)much better to use diffrent brass for each rifle

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[Arizona Trooper]

As mentioned above, the main difference is bullet diameter. I understand (but have no first hand experience) that the Armi-Sport cases have a smaller head diameter (the same as 378 Win or 50-110 express). I do have some experience with Burnside Spencers. Their bores tend to be on the tight side. If you are lucky, 0.512" bullets may shoot OK. You are better off with 0.515". The 6 groove Spencer bores are easy to mic, the 3 groove Burnsides are a bit more of a challenge. Since the grooves and lands are equal width, you can get pretty close by driving a bullet down the barrel and measure across the corners of the grooves. Add about 0.002" for the tapered groove depth (grooves are deeper at the breech).

An easy solution when you are shooting black powder is cast your bullets soft (pure lead or 50/50 wheel weight to pure lead) Black powder will whack the bullets hard enough to expand them even if they are a bit under size and you are shooting light loads (~30 grains of FF). Have fun with it!

[Herbert]

A quick and easy way to acuratly measure odd number groove diameter bullets is to roll the bullet between the jaws off a  set of dial calipers wyle puting slite pressure on the bullet.take notice of the high reading that repeats,this will be your groove diameter,as mentioned put the bullet into the rifling from the breach and only put it about 1 inch ahead of the lead ,then knock the bullet out from the muzell and measure,bores on older rifles are oftern tapern from the breach,after you have got this measurment you can slide one through fom the muzell to check for tight spots or the diffrence in breach and muzell diameters.Would be interested in the groove size of your Burncide barell as the ones I have measured the smallest was .518 and my Burncide carbine that I hunt with has a groove diameter of .523 at the start of the rifling tapering to .519 at the muzell ,it shoots very well with a NEI .525  285 gr bullet

[WCR]

Herbert
I do not fully understand how you want me to measure the bore, but if you will describe it again for me, I will give it a try.

I have factory loaded .56-50 cartridges that were loaded for a Armi-Sport rifle, which I do not own, and I have cast .512 bullets that I use for one of my other rifles when I reload.

WCR

[Herbert]

You will first have to push a oversized bullet(.525) into the rifling from the breach (about 1 inch into the rifling),then knock it out with a rod from the muzell.Now by using a set of dial vernia or digital calipers,rotate the bullet between the jaws (keep slite pressure on the bullet with the caliper jaws as you rotate the bullet,you will get a high and low reading as you rotate the bullet,repeat this sevral times untill you are sure of the high reading,this is the groove diameter of the barrel)

[WCR]

with some assistance from my gunsmith (who will assist for free and now when it involves an old rifle) we slugged and measured the bore at the chamber to be .512 and at the muzzle to be .518.
This was the first time he has seen this particular old rifle of mine, and said that the bore looks like the rifle was not fired much at all.
Makes sense, as Springfield Armory shipped these rifles to New Mexico, not issued, then back to Rock Island,not issued,  and then sold as surplus in early 1900's.
Based on this, I think the Armi-Sport black powder loads that I have with .512 bullets should shoot very well.

Herbert--thanks for the instructions and information.

WCR

[Herbert]

If the groove diameter is .512 at the start of the rifling and .518 at the muzell you have a problem,the other way round would be very good

[WCR]

Now I am confused.

In your post you state the following:
"I have measured the smallest was .518 and my Burncide carbine that I hunt with has a groove diameter of .513 at the start of the rifling tapering to .519 at the muzell ,it shoots very well with a NEI .525  285 gr bullet"

Unless I have the two slugs mixed up (I will need to take back to my gunsmith to see for sure which is at the chamber, and which is at muzzel), my groove diameter is .512 at the start, and tapers to .518 at the muzzel. How is this a problem, and if so, dont you have a problem as well?  Just trying to understand?

WCR

[Jan Buchwald]

Go shoot your carbine, if there should be a problem, it would be precision, in that case, try a .515 bullet or bigger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0sTg9SDTvU&feature=plcp

[Herbert]

Now I am confused.

In your post you state the following:
"I have measured the smallest was .518 and my Burncide carbine that I hunt with has a groove diameter of .513 at the start of the rifling tapering to .519 at the muzell ,it shoots very well with a NEI .525  285 gr bullet"

Unless I have the two slugs mixed up (I will need to take back to my gunsmith to see for sure which is at the chamber, and which is at muzzel), my groove diameter is .512 at the start, and tapers to .518 at the muzzel. How is this a problem, and if so, dont you have a problem as well?  Just trying to understand?

WCR

Yes I see I made a mis print in measurments,it should have read .523 at the start of the rifling,not .513,sorry for the mistake.If a barrel is smaller at the start of the rifling acuracy is allmost imposible to achive.I would check the breach end again.it looks like you are going to have a faily standard Burncide barrel,this should shoot very well with the BACO .520 Spencer bullet.sorry for the mistake

[WCR]

thanks to everyone for the information

I will let you know how it shoots

[Jan Buchwald]

I dip the bullet in melted lupe. Have managed 7 shot within the 8'th ring, offhand on 50 m, standard 25 m pistol target. Its an absolute darling to shoot.

[WCR]

shot the rifle today, but had extractor issues, so no accuracy report on this date or post
WCR