HODGDON'S 777

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Howdy to the camp!  As I was shooting my Smith and SpenceR last night, I had an interesting experience.  The Spencer digests 777 with no signs of preasure.  When using the Smith with hard rubber cases, however, the 777 was not a good idea.

The Smith rubber cases are very durable.  I loaded one single case 6 times with 35 grains FFFG Goex and the Maynard bullet.  The case showed minor swelling in the portion that is exposed when the breech is open, but is still re-usable and chambers easily.

A load of 35 grains of 777 was a different story.  The rubber case ruptured and the blast through the breech actually popped up the large flat barrel catch far enough to allow the breech to open.  A minor singing and a moment of pucker factor are all I suffered.  The brass cases used by the N-SSA types would work, but the 777 is too hot for the rubber cases.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Years ago, when 777 first came out, I was interviewing Hodgdon's own "Birdshot" about it for a Cowboy Chronicle article.  He said that all 777 charges should be reduced by 15% by volume from the BP load.  I have done this with the 56-56 Spencer, a 39 grain charge of 777 by volume, is about equal to the 45 grains of FFG BP.  Granted, I was using 35 grains by volume of 777 in the ruptured Smith case.  That was still no more powerful than a 40 grain BP load. 

There must be some different dynamics here.  I have loaded as heavy as 45 grains volume of 777 in a Taylor's 56-50 without signs of presure.  Any thoughts from the camp?

[Appalachian Ed]

Come on guys.. It's a SIN to burn anything other than the holly Black in these guns. Stay away from the fake powders. Smokeless is just a passing fad.   

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[Will Ketchum]

Come on guys.. It's a SIN to burn anything other than the holly Black in these guns. Stay away from the fake powders. Smokeless is just a passing fad.   

Easy for you to say Ed.    However there are places around the country where it is illegal to store black powder in your home.  Also it can be very expensive to buy in areas where it is closely regulated.  Another concern is if you want to travel by commercial air to a distant shoot you can't bring ammunition loaded with "real" black powder aboard the plane.  You also can't ship it ahead without paying a haz mat fee.

I felt pretty much the same way as you until I ran into some of the above.  So now I let others do as they must or choose so they can enjoy at least some of the mystique of shooting the smokey stuff

Will Ketchum

[Fox Creek Kid]

Another concern is if you want to travel by commercial air to a distant shoot you can't bring ammunition loaded with "real" black powder aboard the plane.

You cannot fly with real BP but you can travel with ammo LOADED with real BP.   

[Appalachian Ed]

Good point, fortunatly I have never had to do without the black.

[Will Ketchum]

Fox Creek, maybe on your airlines but not here. Each has their own rules.   I asked and they said "NO".  Even in loaded rounds it is considered an explosive by them.  Heck even for smokeless they want it in the original boxes.  They let me get by with plastic when I told them they held up better than the cardboard ones ammunition comes in.

Will Ketchum

[Fox Creek Kid]

Ketchum, you oughta think about moving out of that People's Republic Of Wisconsin. 

[Will Ketchum]

Ketchum, you oughta think about moving out of that People's Republic Of Wisconsin. 

Well pard it's not the state.  It's the local airline regulations.  I can own as much black powder as I want.  I can only store what is legally allowed by Federal law.  It isn't hard to find BP here like it is in California.  The local hardware store handles it.  I was speaking about those not so fortunate.

Will Ketchum

[Greg Edington]

Hello,

I am happy to hear that you were not injured when your Smith case ruptured.  I think many of us have had near mishaps shooting black powder at one time or other.  I remeber my first smoothbore muskets hammer would blow back to full cock when I was a kid and I thought that was neat until told otherwise and got the nipple replaced.

Smith Load Diagram using a 52 Cal. Wilkinson Carbine bullet

I think Hodgdon 777 is Ok for the Smith it's just that there are some other factors to be considered.  Hodgdon 777 is what is known as a Scultze type bulk powder and is loaded bulk for bulk with regular black powder. Scultze type powder was by a Prussian Captain E. Scultze around 1870 and was used as a semi-smokeless bulk powder into the 1950's.  Scultze type powders like 777 are made of either Nitrocelluose or Nitroligin (nitrated wood pulp) with potassium nitrate as a burning rate moderator. Bulk type powders were loaded in Spencers rounds and the old 2 1/2" shotgun shells so that's why Hodgdon 777 seems to work so well in your Spencer.  I do think you think you have two factors working against you for your Smith load.

The first factor is 35 grains of Hodgdon 777 by volume is about a 10-20% overload. Hodgdon 777 will compress a bit so quite a bit of powder can fit into the case.  A full Smith case using a Wilkinson carbine bullet with a uncompressed load of Hodgdon 777 holds only 23.5 grains of 777 powder and 40.1 grains of Elephant FFFg.  Hodgdon 777 is about 20% hotter per volume than regular black powder so 35 grains of Hodgdon would be about equivalent to 42-45 grains of black powder.

Bernard, the second factor is check your your bullet size.  Hodgdon 777 is Scultze type bulk powder   Hodgdon 777 burns at a similar rate to BP, but it is still a progressive type powder and it will burn faster if compressed.  The bullet if too large large bullet might swage fine with BP, but its generating much higher pressures with Hodgdon 777 while the bullet is swaging if it is big.

I've had Smith cases rupture shooting 40 grain loads of FFg powder and the latch kept the action closed so I imagine your Hodgdon 777 load was generating quite a bit more pressure so there had to be another factor than a slight overload.  You might be lucky you were shooting a plastic case instead of a brass one.  The plastic Smith case ruptured venting the excess pressure before the action failed.  I've seen the same thing with 45 ACP 1911's in IPSC matches with double charges, the case will rupture before the barrel fails, the grips and magazine are usually another story, but the shooter and pistol are relatively intact.

One thing you might want to do if you already haven't done it is invest in a sizing die to size the bullets down to 0.515" and reduce your charge of Hodgdon 777 down to around 20 grains. The below photo shows carbine rounds made from 54 caliber CSA Gardner bullets. The Gardner bullets used in this photo weighed either 444 grains or 384 grains The neat thing about this photo is that the 384 Grain carbine version of the Gardner is sized to 0.515" from a 0.544" minie.   I originally thought that this might have some applications for the Spencer, but the bullet nose is too long, and the flat too small.

L-R 384 gr. plug base 0.544" Gardner side & bottom view, 0.515" Gardner bottom & side view sized from 0.544" Gardner one pass, 0.515" 384 gr. Gardner in Smith Case ready to fire, Inserted paper 444 gr. 0.536" Gardner with twist tail for Sharps, Inserted paper 444 gr. 0.536" Gardner with regulation folded tail for Sharps.  The Sharps cartridges were nitrated/waterproofed with nitrocelluose lacquer (collidion.) You might notice that the hollow base walls became slightly thicker from the sizing process.

The sizing dies I used to this were back engineered from descriptions, and drawings of captured CSA equipment from Richmond Laboratories, done by the Union army Ordnance Corp after the Civil War was over.  I found out in letters from Col. John W. Mallet superintendent of the Confederate States' Ordnance Laboratories to General Gorgas that the Confederates were sizing lubed 63 caliber Gardner bullets down to 0.562 in a single pass through a sizing die.    I found that with the right sizing system minie', Gardner, and carbine bullets can be sized large amounts and still be usable.  The 54 caliber bullets used in the above photo were sized down 0.029" yet still have nice grease grooves w/o major bullet deformation.

I think that with proper work a shooter might be able to adapt this system to shoot the right 54 caliber and 52 caliber Spencer carbine bullets from the same mould.   The bullets in the above photo were sized on a small inexpensive RCBS Partner reloading press using a threaded 7/8 X 14 sizing die. The big advantage of the CSA system is that new sizing dies are cheaper than new moulds. John DeWald at North East Trade Company helped me back engineer the threaded sizing dies and the new versions of his production sizing dies incorperate some of the lessons learned from the CSA sizing systems.  I hope the info helps with your Smith 777 loads.

Best Regards:

Greg Edington 

[Steel-eye Steve]

Howdy to the camp!  As I was shooting my Smith and SpenceR last night, I had an interesting experience.  The Spencer digests 777 with no signs of preasure.  When using the Smith with hard rubber cases, however, the 777 was not a good idea.

The Smith rubber cases are very durable.  I loaded one single case 6 times with 35 grains FFFG Goex and the Maynard bullet.  The case showed minor swelling in the portion that is exposed when the breech is open, but is still re-usable and chambers easily.

A load of 35 grains of 777 was a different story.  The rubber case ruptured and the blast through the breech actually popped up the large flat barrel catch far enough to allow the breech to open.  A minor singing and a moment of pucker factor are all I suffered.  The brass cases used by the N-SSA types would work, but the 777 is too hot for the rubber cases.

I've had 35 grains of Swiss FFFg rupture the case also. Rather exciting when wearing a short sleeve shirt.

[Bead Swinger]

As cute as the Smith might be, I think this evidence clearly settles it.  The Spencer is clearly a superior weapon.  \

Gwarsh almighty - http://bio-degradeable cartridges - what d'you expect them NOT to rupture sometimes?  You'd think it was invented by someone at Greenpeace.