Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: ndnchf on April 09, 2021, 01:58:54 PM
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I'm a glutton for punishment. I enjoy the challenge of getting long obsolete guns shooting again. I just found a nice Ball & Williams Ballard sporting rifle in .46 long rimfire. After a lot of internet searching, it seems .44-40 brass is a good parent case. I saw one post on the N-SSA site where are guy mentioned making his .46 rimfire cases by plugging the centerfire primer hole of a .44-40 and drilling an offset hole for a .22 blank. I've made something like this for 32 rimfire, but nothing this big.
BTW, I did check with RMC, they don't make them. I have an email to Roberson too, but no reply yet.
Of course dropping in a centerfire breech block would be the simple way to go, but they don't grow on trees.
So has anyone done it? I won't be surprised to hear cricket on this one, but I figured it was worth a try ;D
Steve
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ndnchf,
I admire you for your willingness to take on these out of print cartridges, and the guns that shoot them. Following your postings and threads is always educational. Thanks again and good luck on this particular one.
Dave
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Thanks Dave. I'm not sure where this path will lead, but the journey is half the fun. I cut and sectioned a .44-40 case to see how and where it would need to be drilled for the acorn blank after the CF hole is plugged. Soldering a brass plug into the hole will be the first step.
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Haven't done a .46 rimfire, but played with the commercial Spencer rimfire cases a little. I could never get them to go off, because the firing pin hits so close to the edge of the rim that it missed the rim of the .22 blank, but it sure beat the heck out of the edge of the rim of the case. Some rimfire firing pins (No 4 Rolling Block, for instance) have a larger footprint. I'm not familiar with the details of the Ballard, so it might not be an issue.
If I were working this project up I would make up a dummy case and see where the firing pin hits so I could plan on how to make up the cases.
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DJ - good idea on the dummy round. I'm new to Ballards, so not sure how much contact the firing pin has. I have several rimfire rolling blocks, they seem to hit the rim with no problem.
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Has anyone explored making new rimfire ammunition? I am not an engineer, or manufacturing guy, but small capacity projects might be feasible with recent developments. Drawing copper or brass alloys does not seem impossible to reproduce? Making it economically is obviously the trick.
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Today I made one 46 rimfire long from a 44 magnum case. This was just to see if I could do it and prove out the concept.
The CF primer pocket was filled with a brass plug, soldered in place. Then the offset .22 blank hole was drilled, reamed, then counter sunk for the rim. Then the out edge relieved to allow room for the firing pin to crush the blank.
It's not pretty, but I think it will work.
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I needed a bullet to complete a dummy round. All I have on hand of the correct diameter are Lee 459-405HB bullets. So I shortened one, then cut a heel on it. The original bullets were 300-310gr. This one comes in at 315gr, a tad heavy. But it will do as a start.
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I'd love to see a pic of the rifle.
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I'd love to see a pic of the rifle.
I only have photos from the seller. Here are a few.
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Full view.
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I made 4 more cases today. That gives me 5 to get started with ;D
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My Good NDNCHF
I love the project.
This could bring remington derringers back to life.
just out of couriousity, lcuriousty wondering,
is there a particular reason to go through the effort of making rimfires
as opposed to making a centerfire conversion or extra centerfire block ?
yhs
prof marvel
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Professor - The technique could certainly be applied to .44, .41, .38 and other rimfires. I made similar 32 rimfire cases a number of years ago and they worked well.
Why? Well, like I said, I enjoy the challenge of bringing them back to life. I have changed several rolling blocks from RF to CF. But those are pretty straight forward. This rifle is not so easy. But if someone manufactured CF conversion kit, I'd be very interested. But for now, I'm happy to make these.
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Hello ndnchf,
I remember reading somewhere a guy drilled & tapped the original primer pocket,
then ran in a threaded brass plug before soldering.
Might be a little stronger than just a plug soldered in.
Again a very interesting project.
AntiqueSledMan.
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I've read that somewhere too. The plugs are made from a 1/4" brass screw, turned down to about .203". The root of the threads still remain. This provides additional "grab" for the solder. But since the plug will be flush up against the breech block and i'll be using lght loads, I think it will be ok.
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I purchased three of these original Winchester .46 long rimfire cartridges online yesterday. I am tempted to pull one apart. I'd like to weigh the powder charge and see how fine the powder is. I'm also thinking it would be neat to have Accurate make a mold to duplicate the bullet.
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I looked at Roberson Cartridge Company's web site last week for .46 long rimfire, but didn't see it listed. So I sent them a message asking about it, but got no reply. I was looking there again this morning and now it do see it!
https://www.rccbrass.com/product/46-long-rimfire/
Either I missed it last week, or they just added it to their listing. With my new Ball & Williams Ballard arriving soon, I'm interested :-)
I'm wondering if anyone has first hand experience with Roberson's reloadable rimfire cases? How do they hold up? Do the .22 blanks fit snugly?
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I decided to go a different route on the bullets. I really don't want to stress this old boy and prefer a lighter bullet than the 295gr bullets above. Looking through my bullet stash I found some 255gr, .453" diameter. 45 Colt bullets. Since they were a little undersized, I swaged them to .457". Then cut a heel on them in the lathe. I think these will be better for the first test firing.
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I acquired three original .46 long rimfire cartridges to go along with my Ballard sporting rifle. Of course I wanted to compare them to the reloadable .46 long rimfire I'm making. The cases are an excellent match, not so much the bullets. But these bullets I just made up to test fire it. I'm working on something better.
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What are the heel and major diameters you're shooting for on your bullet?
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What are the heel and major diameters you're shooting for on your bullet?
The heel is made to fit the sized .44 magnum brass, at .425". But after it is fired, I don't expect to resize it much. So I'll adjust the heel size to fit the fired brass. Major diameter is a guess at the moment. The original cartidge's bullet is .454". My current home made bullet is .457". When the rifle arrives i'll slug the bore, then size the bullet accordingly.
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A fellow shooter is sending me a Lee 456-220-1R mold and some bullets that I think will be a good choice. I want to keep loads light in this old boy. This 220gr bullet with a mild charge of BP or a sub should be just the ticket. All that is needed is to turn a heel on them.
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When is a .46 long rimfire not a .46 long rimfire? Today!
My Ball & Williams Ballard sporting rifle arrived today. I immediately slugged the bore. To my surprise it was not .46 cal as the seller thought (it has no caliber markings). It is .435" groove diameter - a .44! No big deal, it doesn't matter to me. Chamber measurements are in my rough sketch. It dawned on me that my .44 S&W American heel bullets are perfect. They come from the mold at .435". I dropped a bullet into the chamber until it stopped on its own. Then measured back to the breach face - .940". The heel is .150 long. That gave a max case length of 1.090". Backing off .040" to allow for fouling, I came up with a case length of 1.050". As for a case, .44-40 is a better match than .44 mag. It is closer to the chamber base diameter. So I cut down a sized .44-40 case to 1.050", seated a .44S&WA bullet and it chambered perfectly.
It looks like I need to convert some cut down .44-40 brass to rimfire this week. :-)
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I just went out a test fired one of my home made rimfire cases. It worked and went bang!
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I took the .44 long rimfire Ballard rifle to the range this afternoon for the first time. I have to admit being just a little nervous shooting a 157 year old rifle for the first time! I made a short video, check it out to see how it went :-)
https://youtu.be/aq3CqFQd36E
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That is just SOOOOO Cool !
I love shooting the old classics
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:) PLUS ONE too Major 2!! Well Done!!
Stay safe out there
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Great video and back story! Were 44 henry shells compatible with that rifle back in they day?
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No, 44 Henry was different. It seems everyone made there own according to their whims. My .44 rimfire rolling block is similar, but different too.
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Hello ndnchf,
I don't have dimensions for the 44 Long Ballard in rim-fire,
but I do have the 44 Long CF Ballard.
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Hello ndnchf,
I don't have dimensions for the 44 Long Ballard in rim-fire,
but I do have the 44 Long CF Ballard.
Thanks, that's good info. I've found considerable variation from published dimensions. It seems each manufacturer made their chamber reamers as they saw fit. Mine is similar to what you posted, but not the same. My thought on these early rifles is to use published data as a starting point, but then messure the chamber, then make brass to fit.
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http://www.cartridge-corner.com/rimiden.htm
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Ballard sporting rifles armed the "Red Sash" home guard volunteers at the Fenian attempt to invade Canada at Eccles Hill, may 25, 1870. Likely the same .44 Ballard Long cartridge.
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=57147.msg727356#msg727356
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I wonder if any of the Fenians carried Remington NMA conversion revolvers. These were altered from percussion to the same .46 rf cartridges in 1868/69.