New Berretta Break top

[Doc Hawken]

I was looking at the new Berr. break top, I have forgotten the name but nonetheless I think my Russians are far better looking. Scandulous amont of money for it as well, or at least it seems so to me. I would love to see what Taurus could come up with.  Hawken

[Zip Wyatt]

I can't find one to look at.  I've called everyone in town without success.  Is Beretta doing this on purpose or is the production just ramping up?

Zip

[Scattered Thumbs]

I sure would have liked to see the Laramie come out under the Uberti name instead of Beretta's, the price wouldn't have been so steep I guess.
Nevertheless I'm considering one, not for CAS but for ISSF centerfire pistol ( that sure would make a change from the Hammerlis and Walther space guns we generally see in those events  ), off course it would have to be in .38 spl.
It will take me a while to get the money though.

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[Virginia Gentleman]

At the last show the Berettas were going for something like $990.00.  A bit high priced for me.

[Rapid Lee]

I sure would have liked to see the Laramie come out under the Uberti name instead of Beretta's, the price wouldn't have been so steep I guess.
Nevertheless I'm considering one, not for CAS but for ISSF centerfire pistol ( that sure would make a change from the Hammerlis and Walther space guns we generally see in those events  ), off course it would have to be in .38 spl.
It will take me a while to get the money though.

Scattered Thumbs, I thought I was the only CAS shooter that also shot ISSF pistol; the centerfire pistol event is my favorite.  I too have lightly considered using my original New Model #3 Target in 38-44 for the centerfire event      However, I recently bought a Manhurin MR 32 Match (single action!) revolver for this event, and it's a hoot to shoot! 

Rapid

[Scattered Thumbs]

I sure would have liked to see the Laramie come out under the Uberti name instead of Beretta's, the price wouldn't have been so steep I guess.
Nevertheless I'm considering one, not for CAS but for ISSF centerfire pistol ( that sure would make a change from the Hammerlis and Walther space guns we generally see in those events  ), off course it would have to be in .38 spl.
It will take me a while to get the money though.

Scattered Thumbs, I thought I was the only CAS shooter that also shot ISSF pistol; the centerfire pistol event is my favorite.  I too have lightly considered using my original New Model #3 Target in 38-44 for the centerfire event      However, I recently bought a Manhurin MR 32 Match (single action!) revolver for this event, and it's a hoot to shoot! 

Rapid

Howdy Rapid Lee,

No you're not alone.  I've been shooting standard pistol, rapid fire pistol and center fire pistol long before I started CAS.

In center fire pistol I'm getting the " This guy is crazy" look from fellow shooters cause I retired my Hammerli 280 and started shooting with a S&W Model 14 in .38 SPL.  I can't still match what I could do with the Hammerli (around 570 points) but I hope I can improve that. The funny thing is that I'm almost on pair with my former scores in the first part of the event, it's in the duel part that I'm still a bit behind  I'm using the standard factory grips. I don't want to go anatomic.

PS. You got an original New Model # 3 in .38-44. Now I'm feeling envious. 

[Rapid Lee]

Scattered Thumbs,

I started shooting int'l pistol more than 20 years ago in college, but not before I bought my fiirst Colt SAA  .  I shoot all the events, but haven't got to try rapid yet with the regular 22's.  I first started shooting the CF event with a smith model 14 and Morini grips; I quickly worked up to the high 560's but I felt like my hand was taking a beating from the 38's with the anatomical grips.  I also started to believe that the 32's had an advantage since they were scored with a 38 plug, so I started playing around with some other guns, first a model 52 and then a Unique DES32.  I also tried a S&W model 16 but they don't work worth a darn with 32 S&W loads.  Then I lucked into the Manhurin which also has Morini grips on it.  I shot my first match with it last weekend (the IN state championship) and easily shot a 568 with not a lot of practice.  I think the mid 570's should be easy to get to, maybe a 580!  For me a revolver is more fun to shoot in that match than a semi; you also don't have to chase brass!

Doc Hawken,

My apologies for hijacking your thread!  I would also love to get one of the New Model #3 replicas but I'm hoping maybe Navy Arms will import a slightly more authentic version (like in 44 Russian) than Beretta at a more resonable price!

[Scattered Thumbs]

you also don't have to chase brass!

 



Doc Hawken,

I also apologize for hijacking your thread.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

I see the list price at over $1100...

Sorry, but, no pistol is worth that, unless I am the holding it and there is a bank teller standiing at the business end of it.
(couldn't resist...heard that one during the last match I was at...been waiting all this time to use it)

Navy Arms are only $550 or so...tough to justify the exta cost when Beretta 92FS is the only Auto I could never get to shoot right.
(half dozen 1911s, S&W, Springfields...etc in my locker and I can drill 2" groups at 15yards...that damn italian job never held better than 7")

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,

At the request of Joss House I am posting this report on the Beretta "Laramie", a sorta clone of the S&W New Model #3.  I say "sorta" because there are distinct differences between the originals and this rendition.

I acquired access to one due to a request from a number of customers for holsters to fit the Laramie.  Since the gun is a live piece, rather than a welded up dummy like I usually use to block my holsters, I figured I might as well fire it.

I have shot originals SA top break S&W's in the past, and like the NM#3's the best of them all!

The Laramie is, as are most of the S&W clones, about 7 percent larger in dia. than the originals in 6.5" length, and about 10 percent thicker in the topstrap.  In addition, the Laramie is longer in the frame and topstrap, to acommodate the longer cylinder necessary to accept the .45 LC and .357 Magnum length cartridges.

The Laramie also has a different sighting arrangement than the originals.  Rather than a narrowly-grooved little bulge on top of the strap, with the latch rounded and knurled, the Laramie has a blade across the rear of the latch,  held to the rear of the latch by a clamp held by two small screws. The blade has a square notch cut into it, and the outside top corners are cut off at about a 45 deg. angle, making it less likely to gouge into the inside of a holster or to catch on something.  This arrangement allows one to change the point of impact...SORTA!  To move the blade, you have to first find a screwdriver with a blade thin enough and narrow enough, but strong enough to loosen the two little screws that hold the clamp to the latch.  You can then slide the blade around.  In NO WAY is this a click-adjustable sight like a Ruger or S&W.  SASS should NOT consider it as such any more than a driftable rear sight might be in a dovetail. As a matter of fact, a driftable sight would be easier to use!

As to elevation, my gun is hitting 6-8" HIGH and about 1" left at 25 yds with everything from Blackhills .45 LC ammo to 200 gr. handloads.  This will require lowering the rear sight by around .060"! There are a couple of ways to do that.  Since one normally aligns the top of the front sight with the top of the blade, centering the front sight in the rear notch, one either needs to file down the top of the blade (and possibly deepening the notch), or to file the amount of metal off the bottom of the blade.  Since I have to keep the original configuration to properly fit holsters ordered, I will probably get a space rear blade and keep the original for holster making.  Of course that is liable to require that I re-sight the gun each time I have to change back and forth.

On the other hand, two customers, both of whom have 5-inch barreled guns report their guns shoot "dead on", though they didn't specify at what range or with what ammo.

The 6-1/2" barreled gun IS a bit muzzle heavy, but I don't find it objectionably so...no more than my 7-1/2" OM Vaquero.

As mentioned, this Laramie is chambered for .45 LC.  Tolerances are fairly close, .004" barrel/cylinder gap with Winchester ammo loaded.

Then came a shock!  The gun would not accept Starline .45 Schofield brass without the heads rubbing on the recoil shield. Well, I thought, that's probably a problem unique to this gun, and I contacted Beretta. (Although the barrel of the gun is stamped on the right side with "A. Uberti", you go to Beretta's customer service department, NOT Uberti's!)  Then I got ANOTHER SHOCK!  After e-mailing Beretta, I received a reply (to their credit, it only took one business day)... The Laramie is NOT INTENDED TO BE USED WITH SCHOFIELD ammunition, as the "head" of the .45 Schofield is larger than that of the .45 LC." 

Now the interference with the Starline brass is probably only .001" or so.  With the barrel/cylinder gap at a minimum (you can go up to about .006" without problems), you'd think they could have avoided this problem. Especially since all Colt's and Colt's clones can handle the Schofield ammo!  Even New Model Blackhawk Rugers and Old Vaqueros can handle the Starline brass if about .001" is filed off the diameter of the cylinder ratchet boss to prevent interference with the RIMS (NOT the heads).

I don't understand Beretta's thinking on this one!

While I DO understand them chambering the guns in .45 LC and .357 Magnum, due to the popularity of those cartridges in CAS, I really wish they would chamber them in .44-40 and also in .44 Special (close enough to .44 Russian).

The cost of these guns is going to be a deterrent to large sales.  I would have thought they could have produced them a bit cheaper, say in the $600-$800 range MSR, more like the NM Russian or Schofield Uberti's.  The lack of interchangeability in the .45 cal. cartridges is also a minus, IMHO.

Apart from that, there are several things I definitely LIKE about the Laramie:

One is the rebounding hammer, like the original NM#3's have (EXCEPT for certain target models).  This would allow you to safely carry the gun with all six chambers loaded, though, SASS and prudence dictates leaving an empty chamber under the cylinder. (Which BTW, I DO even with my transfer bar Rugers!)

Another nice feature is that the hammer spur comes further back and lower for easier cocking with the shooting thumb when shooting Duelist.

So far as "out of the box" is concerned, the Laramie is no worse than most, and better than some.  I did have to knock a sharp edge off the trailing edge of the bolt to keep the cylinder from rotating backwards out of the bolt cuts in the cylinder. A couple of swipes with a ceramic knife sharpener took care of the problem. The trigger pull runs about 4 lbs, which isn't bad.  It has some creep which a good smith can probably take care of.  I've certainly seen worse out of the box!

Well, there you have it, Pards! Hope this is of interest to you.

Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those in harm's way in the defense of Freedom! God Bless America!

Your obedient servant,
Trailrider

[Rapid Lee]

Hi Trailrider,

Thanks for the nice report.  I find it very curious that Beretta/Uberti have managed to figure out a way to screw things up with Starline's 45 Schofield brass.  I have a Navy Arms/Uberti Schofield that I shoot exclusively with Starline Schofield brass with no problems whatsoever.  A friend of mine has two of them (one of which I sold to him) who also uses Starline brass without any issues.  I've never heard any complaints about this before from anywhere else either.  How could they be so dumb   It would be a moot point with me if they offered them with the more traditional calibers...

Rapid

[Scattered Thumbs]

Thanks for the report Trailrider.
They should have stick with the .44 Russian cartridge instead of going to .45 Colt, this New model #3 was obviously made from the Russian model and not from the Schofield that's probably why it won't take the rims of the .45 Schofield.
Anyways when, and if, I buy one of these I'll go for the .38 Spl since its closer to one of the original calibers. Unless they decide to make a .44 Russian version.

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,
That's the weird thing about this headspace problem.  It isn't about the head diameter of the two cartridges, nor is it about the rim diameters.  There is plenty of clearance between the rims of the Schofield brass and the ratchet boss on the rear of the cylinder.  (Ruger large-frame cylinders DO have a problem with the rim diameter, though, it, too isn't so bad that a couple of swipes with a file on the outside of the boss won't take care of.

The rims on the Starline .45 Schofield brass are only about .002-.003 thicker than Winchester brass.  On my gun, I even have a little "feel" when spinning SOME Winchester .45 LC brass in the cylinder!  You can't fix this with a chambering reamer.  It has to do with the amount of headspace and endshake in the cylinder.  And the interference isn't all the way around the recoil shield; it's only when the rounds come up to the 11 o'clock postion that they catch on the raised portion of the recoil shield, around the firing pin.  Relieving this by a couple of thousandths would fix it, but then you'd have to mess with the firing pin protrusion.  Take too much off that and you've go real problems.  A job for a competent gunsmith for sure.  The other way to do it would be to take a bit off the front face of the cylinder bushing and the cylinder face.  But my lathe won't take the large diameter of the cylinder, and isn't precision enough to do it without messing things up. You might also be able to take some off the rear face of the cylinder and the ejector star, but, again that's a job for a 'smith. 

I'll let folks know as soon as I get the problem solved, but I've got to use the gun for forming holsters for awhile, so it may be some time...

[Scattered Thumbs]

Trailrider,

I think I now understand what the problems is. It is a common adjustment on the Italian Schofields and Russians, to have to stone that raised portion where the firing pin comes through. I've done this to a couple of Schofields that were binding as the next round was rotated into battery. It seemed to be dragging on the primer. Not good. Stoning should help a bunch.

Joss

Had to do that to my Schofield too. The rims would snag on the step of the raised portion, that using regular Starline .45 Colt brass. I sort of ramped the step.

[Grapeshot]

I was thinking of replacing the barrel latch on my Navy Arms/Uberti #3 New Model Russian with the barrel latch/rear sight asembly of the Larimie.  Can this be done, or will I have to modify the original latch assembly of the NM Russian to accept the sight and screws of the Larimie?

Where do you find spare parts for the Larimie?  VTI doesn't show them on their web site.

[Grapeshot]

I gave VTI a call during lunch and they put one on special order for me.  The gal there said she was going to go to Italy on another matter and would try to get Uberti to pull a latch/sight assembly for me.  Man, you can't beat service like that, especially if she pulls it off.  My hat's off to VTI for even offering to do that.

[Silver_Rings]

Grapeshot, you must be special for her to travel to Italy to pick up some parts for you.   The parts are $5 and shipping and handling are $3,000. 

SR

[Rapid Lee]

Actually, if I remember correctly (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), VTI is owned by Aldo Uberti's daughter, who previously owned/ran Uberti USA before the parent company was sold to Beretta.  So I would guess she probably still has some connections...

Rapid

[turnin fool]

I just got my hands on a Laramie 5 in. yesterday.  Let us say I was way less than impressed.  The feel is off to me, it might be better in the 6.5 in. (hope so).  I own and shoot a number of Berretta guns but this will not be one of them.  Summing up there are four things I didn't like: feel, finish, sights and price.  Also, what's with the large screw on the top strap, does it release the cylinder?

[Doc Hawken]

Yes indeed, it does release the cylinder...it`s a Uberti Russian with silk stockings!!   Doc