Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Drydock on August 02, 2013, 07:41:28 PM
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Got a Trapdoor or a Krag, and want a uniform to go with it? The 1884 Brown Canvas Fatigue uniform is an easy way to get into the ranks, and comfortable enough, even in hot weather, that I use it out on the farm for brush busting and armidillo hunting.
http://www.history.army.mil/html/museums/uniforms/survey_uwa.pdf Page 35
Introduced in 1884 as a barracks duty/stable cleaning outfit, it was soon found so comfortable, particularly in the southwest, that troops wore it in the field, in essence becoming the first really practical battle utility uniform. Officers quickly adapted it for their own use. Highly popular both in Cuba and the Phillipines, though not often seen in pictures, as troops preferred to be illustrated in their more traditional "Blues". This uniform was standard issue to all enlisted ranks from 1885 to 1911. (Officers bought them from the post Quartermaster) Trapdoors to 03s were carried by folks dressed in these.
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Shirt: M1883 pull over flannel http://www.riverjunction.com/Shirt--Indian-Wars-Military-Shirt--Flannel--Heirloom-Brand--Navy-Blue_p_42.html# THis is a cotton flannel, River Junction also markets a wool flannel at twice the price. The specs only say flannel, and this is a fine shirt. I have seen both 3 and 4 button plackets in various pictures, depending on the contractor. 1899 and later troopers began sewing rank on the sleeves, and officers began pinning rank devices to the collar. Don't do it if you're carrying a trapdoor!
Trousers: 1884 Cotton Duck http://www.riverjunction.com/Trousers--Suspender-Pants-Gold-Rush-Jeans--Heirloom-Brand_p_81.html As accurate as any custom pants I've seen. If you want to get fancy you can sew on some seam stripes.
Hat: 1883 drab, Bracher/star/snowflake vent http://www.riverjunction.com/Wadell-Hat-Campaign-hat--Wool_p_109.html Down at the bottom you can pick the vent you want.
Shoes. Black, leather, lace up. Ankle high. You've got black shoes with laces, you're fine.
Thats the basic field uniform. You want to get fancier?
Tunic: http://www.quartermastershop.com/1872_and_on_us_enlisted/m-1884_enl_canvas_bls.html#.UfxO_tJaySo The best, worth the money. Sew on some stripes if you want to be a noncom. Pin on some shoulder straps if your one of them occifers. This is a field uniform, save all the braid and facings for the ballroom.
Leggings: These are nice to have, keeps out the dust and bugs. http://www.whatpriceglory.com/shopexd.asp?id=5119&bc=no THe only difference between these and the ones adopted in the late 1880s is that the older pattern used a leather strap. Some cut off the web strap and rivet on a leather one. But I'm not gonna look under your shoes to check.
Some of this stuff can be found on other sites. Wild West Mercantile has brown duck clothing, prices vary. I've picked up two pairs of Trousers off trade tables at various shoots, 20 bucks. Any old brown cowboy hat of moderate brim and crown works fine. Leggings can be found at Army suplus stores for a few dollars, though you will look long for ones big enough for modern legs. You might have a long sleeve blue pullover hanging in a closet somewhere, and Carhart makes a lot of brown canvas jackets and pants that can be adapted. I've seen a lot of those in 2nd hand stores.
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Shirt: M1883 pull over flannel http://www.riverjunction.com/Shirt--Indian-Wars-Military-Shirt--Flannel--Heirloom-Brand--Navy-Blue_p_42.html# THis is a cotton flannel, River Junction also markets a wool flannel at twice the price. The specs only say flannel, and this is a fine shirt.
Very good points!
I will split hairs on one point though. The 1889 regs do actually say "Dark-blue wool flannel, Army standard,"(emphasis mine) Now having said that If a man chooses to buy cotton flannel, that is his choice. I actually own the wool version from River Junction and can attest to it's quality. The wool is good quality so it isn't itchy and even in the 100+ degree weather we had at the Department of the Missouri Muster I found it to be more comfortable than some cotton shirts I've worn.
The uniform I'm shown wearing below is almost exactly the uniform options Col. Drydock has described. The Regs do give officers the option of wearing a black hat, but by next year I will probably own the River Junction drab hat.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img842/9031/i86y.jpg)
This is a uniform that is comfortable, practical, and won't break the bank.
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Hi,
I still like this Uniform and rifle better ... but I already own them ...*S*
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/OSLHcemeterytour020.jpg) (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/WaddWatsonEllis/media/OSLHcemeterytour020.jpg.html)
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Excellent post, Drydock!
You can do much the same thing for 1898 to 1900 Marines. Most of the uniform is the same. Make sure you get the hat with the snowflake vent. You'll need to get the 1892 version of the EGA from S & S Firearms. The actual Marine campaign shirt was NOT identical to the Army shirt, in spite of what most sources will tell you. I'm working with a local seamstress to provide an economical source for those. If you want to wear an Army shirt, that would also work, as you see both in photos from the time, at least once in the same photo. (My theory is that as Marine shirts wore out in the Philippines, Marines stole.......I mean requisitioned Army shirts.) The trousers were the same. I've seen quite a few usable leggings on e-Bay. Just make sure you get the Marine or Navy version in khaki. (They have less eyelets than the Army leggings.) If you need a size chart to see what size to look for, go to Atthefront.com and look for the legging size chart. Marines could use either black or brown ankle boots, and e-Bay can be a great source for those, especially if you have normal size feet. (It took me a while. 15B's are NOT that common!) I would recommend getting good quality boots, such as Red Wings, as sore feet can take a lot of fun out of a day of shooting. They're usually pretty darn reasonable used. Blue double row Mills cartridge belts can be had from S & S Firearms.
I'll probably think of more later, but that gives you a start.
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Sans the vent holes and a much narrower ribbon my circa 1971 Clay colored resistol does not look bad. Leta sewed me up 1884 uniform a few years ago. Last year I wore the wool shirt, regular brown (no officers stripes) dressed as I private of the 6th infantry in the WR uniform competition, lost out to dress uniforms Congrats to CPT Baylor and Cow Town Scout they looked really sharp as did Rev Barry M Deep in his Brigadier General Doughboy or Wild Bunch Era Wool tunic and fantastic belt and boots.
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Thanks for the excellent post.
For those who wish to use their '84 uniforms with an earlier impression as I do then you need to leave off the leggings, or do as Drydock suggests, and use the M1888 pattern leggings.
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The best source for the M-1888 leggings is a vendor on E-bay named 3040steawrt (J.C. Stewart the author of Cowboys in Uniform) They aren't cheap, but they are perfect.
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Drydock, do people actually hunt armadillo. Always thought they were born on the side of the road dead in LA
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They're a newly reintroduced pest around here. There's a nest of the things on our ridge, I've gotten a couple, scouting for the rest. The GAF spec lead bullet load works dandy on these. Its a good way to pass some time in the back woods with a rifle in hand.
BTW, www.cooncreekoldwest.com is the place to go for all your accoutrements. Mills belts, canteens, haversacks. Great folks. Leta can make anything, and if Buck don't have it, give him a call and he'll find it.
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Two years ago when we went to Louisiana I was surprised how far north in Kansas we were seeing them.
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Now, if you substitute these pants: http://www.wwmerc.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=CM837&type=store&category=3930 you would then have the basics for the M1899 Kahki uniform. You can then go to the Quartermaster Shop or Coon Creek when you're ready for the Jacket.
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Got a bottle of RIT dye and looking for those USN/USMC Leggings?
Used: http://wardenssupplyco.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=774
New: http://live.qm.snapshotdesign.com/Brands/LawPro/Parade-Drill/White-Canvas-Leggings.axd
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I still like this Uniform and rifle better ... but I already own them ...*S*
Hey WWE
Y'all ought to join us join us at a muster sometime!
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Drydock makes a very good point that a very acceptable uniform can be had on a budget. Not everybody can afford to museum quality reproductions and you don't need to to enjoy the GAF Musters.
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Pitspr,
Sirrah, it really would be my honor ... but do you think you Northern Boys would be ready for a .50 Cal. Maynard?
I have some brass and some lead bullets, but there are these peculiar laws against transporting black powder now ... so yeah, when you have a muster on the left coast, like I said, I would be honored .... *S*
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We'd love to have you out, Wadd, and that Maynard is a really nice thing, but I think our era of rifles begins with fully self contained cartridges, so Maynard and paper-cutter Sharps, etc are too early. BUT, you can show up with your uniform and your cowboy rifle and still shoot!
Oh, and back to the original topic, my SAW outfit is pretty much what Drydock is talking about, hat and campaign shirt(wool) from River Junction, Mills belt and leggings from Coon Creek, Pants from for sale table at a match, shoes(CW brogans) from CASCITY classifieds. At my first Grand Muster, I had just the hat from River J., Wal Mart blue flannel long sleeve shirt, WM khaki pants, and my 30-40 cartridges stuck into a 20ga shotgun belt, 2 per loop. Pretty much a bargain basement outfit.
Also, my French Foreign Legion outfit is all from Wal Mart, modified white Wrangler shirt, modified painter pants, and some blue cloth from the sewing aisle for the sash, hat cover from Blockade Runner. About $50 all together(Already had a CW Kepi to go under the cover)
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For that matter, Wadd, forget the headache about transporting arms and ammo. Come on out and we'll find armament and cartridges you can use.
RCJ
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Pitspr,RCJ et al,
I have always wanted a Krag; perhaps this is the time for it ...
But I have just looked up a short sword for the Californio routine at $249.00. Then there is the cost of transporting it all ... when and where is the next muster?
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Grand Muster is coming up, first weekend of October in KS, only about an hour away from Kansas city. Two smaller ones, near Chicago, Aug 31 and Sept 28. So far, we haven't got anything going outside the Midwest. Kansas, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri. Texas seems to have faded out, at least for now.
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WWE
Like RCJ said leave your weapons and home we'll find stuff for you to borrow. Oh, and you likely wouldn't be the only reb there. Join us in Oct. in Garnett KS I'll bet we could find somebody to pick you up at the airport. Who knows maybe you'll have so much fun you might get a bunch of guys together out there on the west coast and have your own Dept. Muster. ::) 8)
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Pitspr,
Okay October in or near Garnet Kansas ... I will hopefully have the shekels by then ... (bought too much gear for Gold Rush Days) ...
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Great! Visit the following threads for more information and registration forms:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,45768.0.html (http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,45768.0.html)
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,49012.0.html (http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,49012.0.html)
...And now back to our regularly scheduled program. ;)
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I've got a Spencer he could capture. ;D
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One would think once loaded in to brass, we have ammunition. Stick an orm d label on it an mail it.
Any one out there know if that would work. Some how folks can order bp ammo and get it shipped to the house. Are there special rules for BP ammo I do not know about?
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Fixed ammunition is fine, I suspect its loose powder for percussion weapons that is the problem here.
BTW i've got an extra Krag if you'ld like to try that. Or a .45 Colt Henry.
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I'll most likely have at least one extra rifle and 2 extra pistols
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I'll most likely have at least one extra rifle and 2 extra pistols
But that's no reason to leave the Maynard home - some of have never seen one in person, let alone fondle or even shoot one ;D
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Good point, Stu! If the powder and caps are too much problem to bring, just bring the empty cases and bullets, I'm sure we can arrive with some powder and caps.
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I was reading the posts on the 1884 uniform and got some ideas. I am not a mameber of the GAF, but do Civili War reenacting (20th Maine, Co. G). I wanted something different to wear for SASS shooting and will be putting together a 1884 Uniform. I have the hat on order from River Junction and will be ordering the pants. I am not sure if I will buy the shirt from them or have a local seamstress make me one. I already have a pair of CW Brogans and some USMC WWII leggings for use. Of course then I will have to get the Trapdoor and all the stuff that goes with it, but it should be fun. ;D
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I am not a mameber of the GAF
Why not? It's free and easy. Just fill out the form on the "Enlist/Recruit" page at http://www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org/
I ...do Civili War reenacting (20th Maine, Co. G).
I come to the GAF from reinacting too. I portray a Sgt. in Co. C 9th infantry 1876 which would have put me at Rosebud and Slim Buttes like you were at Gettysburg. I had never shot an action match until after I joined the GAF.
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Pitspitr, You talked me into it. ;D I went to the GAF website and sent in my enlistment papers!
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I went to the GAF website and sent in my enlistment papers!
That's great news! Now start making plans to join us at a Muster! ;)
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I did some digging around for an 1884 uniform. Have a pair of WWII USMC leggings that will work for a while. I also have my CW Brogans. I have ordered the pants from River Junction and have already received the hat which i think is nice. I will have to wear the hat while hiking in the sun so I can get some nice sweat stains.
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I ordered a new pair of '84 trousers from Quartermaster Depot in Florida. They arrived a couple of weeks ago and they are excellent.
http://www.quartermasterdepot.com/spanish-american-war-c-6.html?zenid=f0e95c1eac197d1bb11d111f6e4790ca
ar $85 you will not be disappointed.
I am a huge fan of Dan at Quartermaster Depot!
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http://www.quartermasterdepot.com/spanish-american-war-c-6.html?zenid=f0e95c1eac197d1bb11d111f6e4790ca
ar $85 you will not be disappointed.
Looking at the photos their patterns look right and their prices look really good!
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Look at me necroposting here. Was the 1884 uniform ever worn in the field during the late Indian War period? I seem to remember seeing something about it, but can't find the source again.
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It was worn extensively in the southwest, as well as Cuba and the Philippines. Leonard Wood asked for it in particular when outfitting the 1st USV, due to his experience with it during the last Apache campaigns. Not seen much in pictures unfortunately, as most of the men wore blues in the studio shots of the times.
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Did the Cavalry wear leggings or boots? Stripes on the sleeves or not? I think they were the web belt also, didn't they?
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Leggings replaced boots in the late 1880s. Stripes on shirtsleeves was first seen in the Phillipines in late 1898/early 1899. Web cartridge belts first appeared in 1876, the full "Mills" belt in 1880, with the Double row belt coming in with the Krags in 1894.
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Were shoulder holsters used during that time period? For obvious reasons that would work best for me. I was thinking an 1877 or 1879 crossdraw shoulder holster. It sits at the right angle for my chair.
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Regarding the leggings, is there a site where I can find out how they were laced. I can do WWII leggings, but want to make sure that is do the 1884 one correctly.
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There is no US "issue" shoulder holster from that time period. However, officers were expected to purchase their own equipment, and once in the field a lot of non issue was seen, both officers and enlisted. Certainly, if conditions make one useful to you, then by all means use one.
The US army leggings from 1884 on lace up just like the ww2 ones. The only real difference is the strap under the shoe. Leather for Pre WW1, web for post. The Marines had some different ones with all eyelets due to a contractor dispute over the "hooks". Ned could tell you about those.
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Were shoulder holsters used during that time period?
Yes. There is a photograph that is described as 2 NCO's (though you wouldn't be able to tell it as they are wearing mostly civilian clothing). As Drydock said they were all private purchase, but because of the picture we know that at least 1 soldier had purchased one.
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Excellent. Thanks, guys. I know things were looser in the field as far as regulations go. It still is in many ways. I doubt a shoulder rig was worn in garrison.
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I doubt a shoulder rig was worn in garrison.
Right.
(We don't spend much time in garrison) ;)
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Right.
(We don't spend much time in garrison) ;)
We haven't been in garrison since 2009(Muster at Ft Hartsuff)
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Were shoulder holsters used during that time period? For obvious reasons that would work best for me. I was thinking an 1877 or 1879 crossdraw shoulder holster. It sits at the right angle for my chair.
CAVU45,
A bit late in posting . . .
for what it's worth, many European military revolver holsters were suspended by a shoulder strap, besides having a sewn belt loop on the back. Both my 1882 Swiss Ordnance revolver and my 1892 Lebel revolver came with original military holsters in that configuration.
I see no reason why that kind of a set-up couldn't be used by shortening up the strap buckle so it would hang at convenient height for you.
I'd be happy to take some pics and post examples if interested.
RCJ
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Thanks, RCJ. I'd love to see the setup. I'm having a hard time picturing it.
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1882 repro - front.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/1882Repro-front_zps091d1b0b.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/RiverCityJohn/media/1882Repro-front_zps091d1b0b.jpg.html)
1882 Original - rear.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/1882Original-rear_zps72d7b85c.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/RiverCityJohn/media/1882Original-rear_zps72d7b85c.jpg.html)
1892 Original - front and rear.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/1892LebelOriginal-front_zps46e8b73c.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/RiverCityJohn/media/1892LebelOriginal-front_zps46e8b73c.jpg.html)
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/1892Original-rear_zps42932f40.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/RiverCityJohn/media/1892Original-rear_zps42932f40.jpg.html)
The strap for the 1892 Lebel broke and I'm making a new one. Same idea, though, as the 1882 Original and Reproduction.
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Where can you find laces for WWI/II Leggings?
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I know you can get them from atthefront.com. They do great World War 2 stuff.
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RCJ, Thanks for the pics! Interesting concept. It looks almost like an old Sam Brown belt attached to the holster. I would need to modify the position of the belt loops a bit.
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Same idea.
My thought being perhaps you could use a shortened shoulder strap without threading a belt through the belt loop.
Just like any shoulder holster, your off hand would naturally come up to steady the holster while pulling your sidearm, keeping the 180degree rule in mind.
RCJ
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Where can you find laces for WWI/II Leggings?
What Price Glory has them at $2.00 a pair.
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Thanks
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The nice thing about What Price Glory is that they're sure to have something else you want/need as well!
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What Price Glory has been the primary source for the Boer impression I'm putting together for next year's Muster. Specifically the Scandinavian Korps.
The quality of their products for such reasonable pricing, and the rapidity of delivery, can't be beat. Only had one goof-up and Jerry made it right immediately.
RCJ
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Same idea.
My thought being perhaps you could use a shortened shoulder strap without threading a belt through the belt loop.
Just like any shoulder holster, your off hand would naturally come up to steady the holster while pulling your sidearm, keeping the 180degree rule in mind.
RCJ
I think I understand what you're saying. Two straps. One around my neck and the other using the belt loops with a shorter strap around my chest. The holster and gun would sit straight up and down under my arm. Wouldn't the barrel of the gun be pointed behind me, even if only briefly, during the draw?