Author Topic: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?  (Read 19064 times)

Offline US Scout

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2010, 05:43:57 AM »
It may have. Some people say Custer was looking at running for president (true or not), and if he had scored that big victory at LBH, he might have been President Custer. He was a war hero after all. That would have changed things a bit. :)


I would argue that he wasn't running for president but promotion, hopefully to brigadier general.  At the end of the war he was a major general of volunteers but reverted to his regular army substantive rank of captain.  With the formation of the 7th Cavalry and his political influence he was able to be appointed it's lieutenant colonel.  He had been offered full colonel in command of one of the black regiments but turned it down.  By 1876 he was frustrated at still being a lieutenant colonel 12 years after the war ended (and no doubt irked that Crook, also a lt col was serving in his brevet rank of brigadier general).  Also, he was in bad favor with President Grant and Sheridan, so was looking for a way to redeem himself.  Many historians believe he was hoping to recreate his "victory" at the Washita.

Offline The Wizard

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2010, 10:04:09 AM »
LTC George A. Custer was the defacto commanding officer at the time of The Battle of the Little Big Horn but who was the full bird colonel who was actually the commanding office of the regiment?  At this point in time the colonel was on detached duty leaving the XO (LTC Custer) in command.

Offline scooter

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2010, 10:51:42 AM »
US Scout

Well said.

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #23 on: Today at 03:19:24 AM »

Offline W.T.

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2010, 11:11:00 AM »
Hmmm.

Well, if Custer had stuck to the plan...

The plan, of course, was that three large army groups would gradually converge on a general area unti the body of Sioux and their allies were located, and then attack from three directions.  Game over.

But, if Custer had stuck to the plan, his command would have been but part of a greater campaign and battle, and afforded him no opportunity for "single-handedly" bringing the Sioux to heel.

Bad pay, obsolete gear, no ammo for target practice, etc., etc., all doubtless played a part, but one guy - one frustrated, egomaniacal, vainglorious, overeager, pride-blinded numbskull - screwed the pooch here, going for personal gain, and getting a lot of people killed. 
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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2010, 11:16:45 AM »
LTC George A. Custer was the defacto commanding officer at the time of The Battle of the Little Big Horn but who was the full bird colonel who was actually the commanding office of the regiment?  At this point in time the colonel was on detached duty leaving the XO (LTC Custer) in command.


Col Samuel D. Sturgis, on detached duty at the Fort Jefferson (he may have been in command there).  It was not unusal for colonels to be detached for other duties, such as command of a district or court-martial duty, usually in their regular army brevet rank.  Sturgis was a Bvt major general I believe.  

He assumed command of the 7th in 1869, and would take the field after Custer's death, even though he was well above 50 years of age.

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Offline MJN77

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2010, 11:27:50 AM »
Hmmm.

Well, if Custer had stuck to the plan...

The plan, of course, was that three large army groups would gradually converge on a general area unti the body of Sioux and their allies were located, and then attack from three directions.  Game over.

But, if Custer had stuck to the plan, his command would have been but part of a greater campaign and battle, and afforded him no opportunity for "single-handedly" bringing the Sioux to heel.

Bad pay, obsolete gear, no ammo for target practice, etc., etc., all doubtless played a part, but one guy - one frustrated, egomaniacal, vainglorious, overeager, pride-blinded numbskull - screwed the pooch here, going for personal gain, and getting a lot of people killed. 

+1

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2010, 10:11:32 PM »
Hmmm.

Well, if Custer had stuck to the plan...

The plan, of course, was that three large army groups would gradually converge on a general area unti the body of Sioux and their allies were located, and then attack from three directions.  Game over.

But, if Custer had stuck to the plan, his command would have been but part of a greater campaign and battle, and afforded him no opportunity for "single-handedly" bringing the Sioux to heel.

Bad pay, obsolete gear, no ammo for target practice, etc., etc., all doubtless played a part, but one guy - one frustrated, egomaniacal, vainglorious, overeager, pride-blinded numbskull - screwed the pooch here, going for personal gain, and getting a lot of people killed. 
Again you're judging by todays standards. There was no satelite imaging. There were no Blackbirds . There were no satelite phones nore even radio to coordinate the 3 columns. Custer used accepted standard army tactics in ways that he found to be successful in the previous 12 years on the plains. It's easy o critisize 140 years after the fact. Good judgement is born of expirience. Expirience is born of bad judgement. In Custers case he had previously been lucky enough to survive his bouts of bad judgement and therfore had no reason to believe that his tactics employed bad judgement.
Yes, he should have kept his command togetherbut he had no way to know that the Sioux would stand and fight that day. In his expirience they never had before.
I am neither a lover or a hater. At one time I fell in the hater camp. However; A few years ago I had a boss who had worked in the the achiological unit the worked the site following the big fire. He told me not to judge by todays standards and politics. It was hard not to listen to a man with his education and expirience.
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Offline W.T.

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2010, 07:49:06 AM »
Well, we'll agree to disagree.

Somebody with a lot more knowledge than me is gonna have to answer this definitively, but I was given to understand that whichever of the three major army groups first located the main body of the Sioux and their allies was to contact and then coordinate with the other two, and then all would move against them in concert.

That, so I was told, was the plan.  Soooo...today's standards nothwithstanding, Custer just didn't follow the plan that he was charged with.  His impulsiveness in attacking at once was no doubt informed by his experience of the Sioux - he did not think they would stand and fight - and his ignorance as to their actual numbers, but - so I was told - there was a plan as described, and he just didn't follow it.

Large-scale field manuvering was not unknown at the time, and the powers commanding the campaign had developed a plan meant to pin down the exact location of the enemy, surround it with superior forces, and end the adventure with a minimum of fruitless chasing, also thereby conserving resources and troopers lives. 

The campaign design was developed by the standards of the time.  Custer acted in accordance with his personal motivations; his "audacity" had, after all, always succeeded in past and served him well in garnering personal glory and honor.  This time, it left him dead on the prairie.
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2010, 09:53:48 AM »
Again you're judging by todays standards. There was no satelite imaging. There were no Blackbirds . There were no satelite phones nore even radio to coordinate the 3 columns. Custer used accepted standard army tactics in ways that he found to be successful in the previous 12 years on the plains. It's easy o critisize 140 years after the fact. Good judgement is born of expirience. Expirience is born of bad judgement. In Custers case he had previously been lucky enough to survive his bouts of bad judgement and therfore had no reason to believe that his tactics employed bad judgement.
Yes, he should have kept his command togetherbut he had no way to know that the Sioux would stand and fight that day. In his expirience they never had before.
I am neither a lover or a hater. At one time I fell in the hater camp. However; A few years ago I had a boss who had worked in the the achiological unit the worked the site following the big fire. He told me not to judge by todays standards and politics. It was hard not to listen to a man with his education and expirience.


Well said Jerry, I think I know the boss you are talking about.  A friend of mine helped here at the state labs with the cartridge work from the site, he has told me the same thing Roy told you.

No matter how it ended though one must remember had Custer stuck to the original plan, (and his orders did give him the option.)  one unit would have never made it, (Crook's) and the other two would have found an empty camp.
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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2010, 12:45:06 PM »
Well, we'll agree to disagree.
I can agree with that. ;D

...but I was given to understand that whichever of the three major army groups first located the main body of the Sioux and their allies was to contact and then coordinate with the other two, and then all would move against them in concert..

I've never read that, but even if that were the case, they knew at the time that this wouldn't be completely workable given the communication and travel limitations of the time. After all Crook had had an encounter with Crazy Horse and friends the week before. The 2 northern columns knew nothing of it at the time the 7th left Terry and Gibbon. It can be argued that had this been known the outcome might have been different.

That, so I was told, was the plan.  Soooo...today's standards nothwithstanding, Custer just didn't follow the plan that he was charged with.
Again it can be argued that he did follow the plan. The plan was to use 3 converging columns in a pincers movement to corner the hostiles and make them fight. By dividing his command into 3 battallions he caught the village in that pincers movement and they did fight.

Other officers have attacked numerically superior forces with men who hadn't slept in 2 days and survived... and even won. These officers have often been considered geniuses, but since Custer died he's an idiot.?  ::)
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Offline W.T.

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2010, 01:03:22 PM »
Oh, point absolutely well-made, and taken, too.  And I appreciate the discourse made in good faith, and the education for myself.

Well, while this dead horse is thoroughly flogged into pemmican here, I find that I am still at a loss...

three large armies afield in manuver, working around a general area, looking for a massed foe according to a plan.  with latitude for individual discretion, what with communications being so difficult and all, but with the objective of putting the Sioux in a three way vise.

modern forensic examinations have unearthed huge amounts of new info in the last twenty years, and as the picture has become more complete, given rise to whole new theories of the whats, whys, and wherefores, some hinting at a little rehabilitation of the hapless fella's reputation.

So - as I understand it, mind - he divides his command and goes probing.  Ok so far.  And having located the Sioux, it wasn't like he could have lost them, but, reasonably, could have continued to keep contact with their whereabouts and sent word in order that the manuver take final shape.  Nothing to be lost by standing off and keeping tabs, after all.  Except a chance at personal glory.

But then, ahorse some distance out, he receives the reports, the intelligence, the recommendations of his own scouts, who say, in effect, "Ah, you might not want to go charging in down there..."

And it is in that moment that the die is cast, because damned if he doesn't go charging-in anyhow.  And got his clock cleaned.

Why did he do that?

and no, he's not an idiot; he had "issues" of pride and self-blindness, a plague often seen in military, even all human, history... 
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2010, 01:16:47 PM »
 Nothing to be lost by standing off and keeping tabs, after all.  Except a chance at personal glory.

 

What would have been lost that most don't seem to understand, it the whole dang village, when the found out what was up and it would have happened no matter how well they hid, the village would have broke up and been gone in all directions.  Happened far more often that a village found in place waiting to be attacked.  And by the Indian accounts they were going to leave the next morning and break up anyway. 

So back to nothing.  And for right or wrong (this is not the discussion here) it finally got the powers to be in Washington to decide the job could not be done with the resources at hand.  And by a year later, for the most part the Lakota "problem" was solved.  Had yet another village escaped, that most likely would have never happened so soon.
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Offline W.T.

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2010, 02:29:09 PM »
Thank you, Sir; now that makes sense to me.

ignoring the intelligence of your own scouts, howsomever, don't.  Boy just got his blood up, is all, and then they relieved the pressure of it for him.

Make no mistake: I ain't channeling Libby Custer nor calling for a rope.  This is not the first instance of command misjudgment, nor was or will it be the last.  My own late commander, an MG of the field and not the staff variety (since it looks to be ok to cite higher authorities without accusation of non-sequiter or irrelevance) - once told me, "Troop, all organizational and operational f***-ups represent a failure of management and command."

That goes all the way to the top.  Fellas have, in this thread especially, pretty expertly and solidly detailed the "command" failure of Congress to properly fund and equip, and the ossified and turgid nature of the Army leadership itself - a chain, in other words, of command failures, of which George was just the last link.  And who paid?  Guys getting $13 bucks a month.  As it ever was.

By the lights of the times, or any times, once adjusted for culture, yeah, the troops of the 7th were combat-ready.  The fact is that nobody learned from the example of Fetterman, who, "...with 80 troops..."    There was no little amount of White Man's arrogance and hubris at work here.

Well, makes for a lively and interesting conversation, for which I thank all.  Learned a lot outta the thread, and didn't expect to make converts nor to be converted...if we all came around to the same way of thinking, why, there'd be nothing left to talk over... ;)
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2010, 02:53:28 PM »
Thank you, Sir; now that makes sense to me.

ignoring the intelligence of your own scouts, howsomever, don't.  Boy just got his blood up, is all, and then they relieved the pressure of it for him.



There is a problem with that also, but it takes a lot of serious historical study to understand.  Time and time again you will read elsewhere that the Indian had a hard time making numbers higher than a 100 understandable, no problem their culture didn't need it.  So with that how did they really let him know how many there really was?  Yes Boyer and Reynalds were also there, but they were not always considered reliable either in some circles. 

So to be truthful, there is no proof that Custer really understood the amount against him, or even had a good idea when he went out from the Crow's Nest that morning.  He had planned on waiting till morning, hidden, but the lost box of hard tack and the Indians finding that made that not a good idea.  And as for Custer I'm pretty much in the middle as far as him, just want things seen from all angles like history should be, not as the Dustin Hoffmann charector Jack Crabb saw it.  Funny after Little Big Man all of a sudden most everyone who had not really did a good job of studying history hated Custer and called him a fool.
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Offline Four-Eyed Buck

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2010, 03:45:35 PM »
Are they still digging there? Or has it grown back over preventing further digs?............ ::) ???
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Offline W.T.

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2010, 04:34:10 PM »
Got no use for "Little Big Man", and certainly not as history.

.
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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2010, 04:43:27 PM »
WT you made a few good points. One is the problem of finding the villlage and Del pointed out that they move. After Crook and Terry joined forces nearly a month later they had a good trail to follow and they still couldn't catch up with them before the village broke up.
Then you mentioned Fetterman. I think (and this is purely speculation and opinion) That what has been considered as Custer's ego may have been more of the prevailing attitude among whites at the time that there was no possible way on earth that stone age warriors no matter how many, could beat a regiment of "genetically superior" white soldiers equipped with modern weapons.This attitude went all the way to the top of the chain of command. Sherman and Sheridan both exclaimed that the news accounts of Custer's defeat were lies. After all  they had to be the indians weren't capable of beating white soldiers en mass. I think the biggest mistake Custer(and Fetterman for that matter) made was underestimating the skill of their opponent. So in this light I would think that the question wouldn't be so much "why didn't he listen to his scouts?", so much as it should be "Why would he listen to them?"

4-eyed Buck To the best of my knowledge the dig took place over a short period of time( just a few months) following 1983 prairie fire and is not on going.
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Offline Delmonico

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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2010, 04:45:22 PM »
Are they still digging there? Or has it grown back over preventing further digs?............ ::) ???

As Jerry said it was a short time.  perhaps we need another fire.  One big problem is the National Cematary covers part of the battle field, one we of course can't did there, and if we could the ground has been distirbed.
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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2010, 04:48:49 PM »
I think the biggest mistake Custer(and Fetterman for that matter) made was underestimating the skill of their opponent.

And both times the Lakota rallied around leaders and fought more like whitemen than Indians.  Most times the Indians fought for personal glory rather than as a unit to defete a defined enemy. 
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Re: The 7th, Were They Combat Ready?
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2010, 05:15:36 PM »
Gents, I think that there may have been small-scale supplementary digs off-and-on in selected sites around the area since the first.

I need to get back out there.  The visitor's center is first-rate.  It is most impressive; still, as Antietam is still; not hard to visualize the ridge beyond with 12,000 horses or see the miles of teepeees along the little river.
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