Home Defense And Over Penetration

[Shotgun Franklin]

On every gun related site people worry about and constantly try to avoid over penetration of the ammo they happen to be using to guard their home. I guess it happens and there might be the rarest of the rare cases where it has factored into a shooting. I will say that in 35 years of Law Enforcement I've never had any first hand experience where over penetration resulted in injury or death to an innocent bystander.
Anyone here have any first hand experience? IMO, it's something we worry about but, like being hit by a falling star, it just doesn't happen enough to cause the worry we put into it.

[joec]

I have some first hand experience with over penetration. I was sitting at a table in a restaurant at a hotel in Columbia when two locals got into an argument across the room from me. A shot range out with the target being killed and me hit by the 38 that passed through his chest hit the table hitting me in the left forearm.  If it hadn't been for the table and the bones changing the angle somewhat as well as my left hand in my lap, it might have been more serious for me. As it turned out the bullet was lodged against the bone in my forearm just under the skin. It took 7 stitches to close the wound in my arm after the bullet was removed. It was a FMJ round. Since then I only carry JHP ammo. So in my opinion it is a serious concern especially in ones home where others might be sleeping in another room behind drywall. There is no guarantee though that a JHP won't pass through a wall also if one misses completely.

[Professor Marvel]

My Good S. Franklin -
Overpenetration issues by Good Guys does not seem to crop up too often, perhaps becasue the Good Guys actually consider the possibility...

I had, at least for a time, collected news articles with regards to such events. For the most part, we found bystanders injured inside of "hollow-wall construction" abodes  and "collateral damage" generally being caused during drive-bys and other gang realted activity that used FMJ 9mm and FMJ 7.62x39.  Any number of non-participant urban citizens have been wounded or killed by such.

There was the occasional "penetration of the apartment next door" in cheap non-masonary buildings during domestic disputes.
Any time a hunting rifle was used in an urban area over-penetration was a given.

One wack-a-doodle case occurred many years back in  Colorado Springs; A woman purchased a new .38 revolver, ammuntion, and targets. She tacked a target to her living room wall and let fly. By the second cylinderful the neighbor had called the LEO's because the bullets were transversing his living room! She did appologise ....

For those of a curious nature, one can go to the Box O' Truth and search for a variety of penetration tests...
www.theboxotruth.com

yhs
prof marvel

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[TwoWalks Baldridge]

If over penetration was only a problem 1 in 10,000 times, I would hate to be the "1".  I could without remorse send the bad guy to the other side but it would destroy me to think I killed the 4 year old girl that lives next door.

[PJ Hardtack]

'Over penetration' is one of those mythic topics gun writers love when they are promoting the latest wonder bullet design. Ranks right up there with the mythic 'cop killer' bullets of the Clinton era. Even sub-sonic .22 ammo can 'over penetrate' under the right conditions.

I live rurally with a wife and dog. My closest neighbour would be very good rifle shot. A .50 Barrett would be about the only firearm that would be a concern re: over penetration. I hear shots on a regular basis; sometimes it's guys plinking or taking a shot at a coyote or bear. I've yet to hear of any collateral damage.
If you live in an urban or suburban environment, the equation changes. Regardless of calibre or ammo type, the variables are endless - calibre, ammo type, wall material, etc., etc., etc.

Win lose or draw, you can bet your last dollar (and you probably will) that a lawyer will be adamant that firing ANYTHING constituted a risk to public safety and you were acting as a wanna-be 'Rambo' to prove your prowess with a gun.

To fire or not to fire in a potentially life threatening situation is one of those split second decisions that will have a dramatic effect on the rest of your life. People trained in self defence that use deadly force are subjected to stringent debriefing and offered post traumatic stress counselling.
The average citizen is on his own. He may have survived the incident, but is now fighting for his life in both the court system and the court of public opinion, the media painting the blackest picture possible of the shooter.

Jeff Cooper said that the court battle was 'Battle #2' and can be fought, but it matters not if you haven't survived 'Battle #1'.

[Shotgun Franklin]

I don't consider getting shot while sitting in a outside cafe as fitting into this subject. It did not involve penetrating any kind of cover or concealment and was in no way related to an act of self defense in defense of hearth or home by a person defending theirself. As for the drive by, how does driving down the street and intentionally firing multiple rounds into a house relate to home this subject. Those shooters had every intention of hitting someone, anyone in the house.
If we limit ourselves to rounds fired in self defense going beyond the intended target to strike an innocent party I still haven't heard of an occurrence.
If we try to remove every chance of ever endangering an innocent third party then we have to completely give up the idea of self defense. It is absolutely impossible to remove all danger. A good example is the use of Tasters by Police, even with training and guidelines there have been people killed as the result of drugs, medication or some physical flaw.

[PJ Hardtack]

Right on, Shotgun! "Over-penetration" concerns are an answer to an unasked question.

Re: police use of Tasers ... a couple of years back, a Polish immigrant was kept in isolation for over 12 hours with no communication, food or water. He had no English and his mother had no idea he was being held in isolation, so she left and went home.

He got a little agitated and police responded. He was 'zapped' multiple times with Taser shots, then held down by several burly cops until he died, no help to sustain life offered.

This is not an isolated incident. The fact is that in Canada, (I can't speak for the US) you have a better chance of being assaulted,  shot and killed while in custody by police than by any criminal.

We are prohibited from having Tasers or any kind of 'mace' or pepper spray. Using either on a criminal puts a citizen in more trouble than his attacker.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

I was sitting at a table in a restaurant at a hotel in Columbia when two locals got into an argument across the room from me. A shot range out with the target being killed and me hit by the 38 that passed through his chest hit the table hitting me in the left forearm

I don't consider getting shot while sitting in a outside cafe as fitting into this subject. It did not involve penetrating any kind of cover or concealment and was in no way related to an act of self defense in defense of hearth or home by a person defending theirself.

I am sorry but can not agree with you!

It would seem to me that a person struck in the chest, then the bullet hitting a table, resulting in a wound to the arm, does apply.  A person breaks into your home (a room) and you shoot that individual.  The bullet passes through the bad guys body striking your wife or child would not be something anyone would choose to live with.

A drive by shooting where the bullets penetrate the wall of a house, striking a child sleeping in her bed, shows the penetration and the danger of striking another person.  If you are defending your home and the bullets you fire penetrate the walls, they very well could strike an unintended person. 

Decisions, if they are about the type of weapon, the caliber of weapon, whether to shoot or not to shoot, it always comes down to one simple question in the end.  Can you live with the decision? 

[joec]

I don't consider getting shot while sitting in a outside cafe as fitting into this subject. It did not involve penetrating any kind of cover or concealment and was in no way related to an act of self defense in defense of hearth or home by a person defending theirself. As for the drive by, how does driving down the street and intentionally firing multiple rounds into a house relate to home this subject. Those shooters had every intention of hitting someone, anyone in the house.
If we limit ourselves to rounds fired in self defense going beyond the intended target to strike an innocent party I still haven't heard of an occurrence.
If we try to remove every chance of ever endangering an innocent third party then we have to completely give up the idea of self defense. It is absolutely impossible to remove all danger. A good example is the use of Tasters by Police, even with training and guidelines there have been people killed as the result of drugs, medication or some physical flaw.

I guess you didn't read it then, Franklin. The shooter shot a person through the chest killing him before it went through the table hitting me. So to me a pretty clear case of over penetration. No problem though since most believe a car door is protection from a gun shot or the average interior wall.

Now there are ways to lower the odds for example modern day hollow points instead of full metal jacked rounds. Not using a rifle or shot gun but a revolver loaded again with the right ammo. Also practice so you don't miss and aim for the largest party of the body or center mass.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi

To interject a little levity into a very serious subject, I hear home invasion and think of my inl-aw's neighbor ....

He was a tiny man who had been a rodeo rider in his younger days ... before he broke every bone in his body riding broncs and decimated his lungs with lucky Strikes ... non-filtered ....

So imagine this little man who, dragging his oxygen bottle behind him, listened to two kids try to break into his slider in the rear of his house ...

Imagine the kid's feelings as they heard the clack-clack of a pump shotgun and felt the glass be shot out of the windows as they ran away.

He was never bothered again ('that M-F's crazy!'). I think instead they targeted some non-gun-owning left-of-center person who would be a be a 'safer' target... LOL.

He later told me it was worth the loss of the glass to get it out that he was not to be messed with ...

[PJ Hardtack]

WWE

Good story!

It is a contradictory and immoral act to eschew self defence (and all it entails) but feel comfortable expecting someone else to do the job. This illogical stance quickly evaporates in a time when police are not required to endanger themselves in the performance of their duty - if and when they arrive.

"When you need a cop in seconds, they are only minutes away."

Countries where only the cops, army and criminals have guns make the 'wild west' look tame.

[Major 2]

How about this ....
1999 Raymond Miss. reenactment .... a Union galvanizer ( Conferedate protraying a Union infantryman ) is shot with a small caliber
Firearm. It is unknown and never discovered who fired the round ....   sniper , carzed local or ? we never found out....

Round passes through his Scrotum, upper thigh and out of his Buttock at the thickest point of the gluteus maximus.

It is here we all may sigh ! and a colective OWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW 

The round exited his double seated wool Mounted Pattern trousers.... the round hit a Musket ButtStock in the rear ranks with enough force the splinter off a good chunk.... the round then passed on to parts unknown....

[Shotgun Franklin]

Yeah, I read it. Out of thousands of shootings I'm very sure the odds of getting hit by a bullet that over penetrates are less than slim. It can happen but the only way to completely erase that very slim chance is to try to protect yourself with a sharp stick. The whole point of shooting an aggressor is to inflict enough damage to them that they immediately stop whatever they were doing. Do your best to control your shot and hit center mass, beyond that it's in God's Hands.

[Danny Bear Claw]

This post is the reason why I posted the "Glaser vs Magsafe" post here.  I'm not sure about either one of these rounds.  I've read good and bad reviews on both.    

[Shotgun Franklin]

I have no info on Magsafe. I was working in Houston when an Officer returned fire after being shot at by the Driver of a car. The Glaser, fired by the Officer, struck the car window and went to pieces. HPD then banned their use by their Officers. From my own experience I want a round that will penetrate a light barrier; car door, 1" plywood, glass or such stuff.

[Danny Bear Claw]

I feel the same way Mr. Shotgun Franklin.  Although I have Glasers and Magsafes in several calibers they are mostly curiosities in my ammo collection as I generally load my home/vehicle/self defense guns with quality JHP ammo.