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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Spencer Shooting Society => Topic started by: nactorman on September 10, 2012, 08:28:38 PM

Title: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: nactorman on September 10, 2012, 08:28:38 PM
Hi All,
  I was just wondering if any SSS folks might be interested in owning a reproduction bayonet for their Spencer rifle? I'm considering having some manufactured and just wondered if there was enough interest out there to justify the time/cost. They would be reproduced from an original piece and come with an appropriate scabbard. Anticipated cost for bayonet + scabbard would be about $55-$65 ea. Any thoughts?
  Charles Misulia
  "nactorman"
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on September 10, 2012, 09:39:04 PM
I'd definitely want one!
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Two Flints on September 11, 2012, 04:00:47 AM
Would the Spencer bayonets have a new look or would they have an 1860's appearance, you know, made to look old and worn? . . .  my rifle sure does ::) ::)  And no US markings ;D

I might be interested, too.

Two Flints
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on September 11, 2012, 01:41:50 PM
Would the Spencer bayonets have a new look or would they have an 1860's appearance, you know, made to look old and worn? . . .  my rifle sure does ::) ::)  And no US markings ;D

If you think about it, an "1860's appearance" (.... i.e. what the item would have looked like in the 1860's ....) would actually be "new" .... or at very least "nearly new".  Folks who have modern reproduction rifles, and do period reenacting, want their firearms and other kit to look new, or at least recently issued (or certainly should want that, unless they want to pass off their repros as originals!)  After all, when such kit was in use in the 1860's, it definitely wasn't a century and a half old!

On the other hand, a "new" bayonet can be artfully "aged" to better match an original firearm, after you get it.

As a Canadian re-enactor, I am fully in agreement with avoidance of "US" markings, however. 
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: PvtGreg on September 11, 2012, 02:30:34 PM
I'm in.

Pvt Greg
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Two Flints on September 11, 2012, 03:40:55 PM
Hi,

I pulled this information from Robert M. Reilly's, American Socket Bayonets and Scabbards and thought it might be of interest to anyone reading this thread.

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/SpencerBayonet1a.jpg)

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/SpencerBayonet2a.jpg)

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/SpencerBayonet3a.jpg)

Two Flints

Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Sean Thornton on September 11, 2012, 03:53:31 PM
Charles count me in as long as it is a new look to go with my new looking reproduction Spencer and that it will fit the reproduction.  I am not sure if the difference between an original rifle and a repro is much.
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Herbert on September 11, 2012, 03:54:25 PM
You will all so have to realise that a original Spencer bayonet most likly will not fit the AS Spencer as the front sight is in a diffrent position and there are at least two diffrent barrel diameters on the AS rifle that I know off
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on September 11, 2012, 05:55:26 PM
....I pulled this information from Robert M. Reilly's, American Socket Bayonets and Scabbards and thought it might be of interest to anyone reading this thread.

Thanks, Two Flints!  Saved .....
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Two Flints on September 11, 2012, 06:49:05 PM
From a recent article by Graham Priest, The U.S. Rifle-Musket Model 1855 Bayonet in the Civil War, which appeared in the June, 2011 issue of MAN AT ARMS.

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/Morebayonets1.jpg)

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/morebayonets2.jpg)

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/morebayonets3.jpg)

Two Flints
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: jim on September 11, 2012, 07:22:05 PM
I would also be interested in one,,jim
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: nactorman on September 12, 2012, 10:56:32 PM
Wow, thanks everyone for the response and the helpful info. I am going to move ahead with the project. I'll keep everyone updated as things progress.
  Charles Misulia
  "Nactorman"
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Drydock on September 17, 2012, 09:07:09 AM
For those interested in the 709 fitted with the 1855 sabre bayonet, you can use this:

http://www.regtqm.com/product-p/bay-012.htm

This is the 1855 common rifle bayonet, seen most often on the 1841 Mississippi rifle, thus it has been called the Mississippi bayonet.  The adaptor ring provided was for the Mississippi rifle, and may very well have been used on the Spencer until the socket type bayonet could be engineered, thus the relativly small number issued at the beginning of the run.
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Jobe Holiday on September 17, 2012, 09:32:47 AM
I will respectfully disagree about using a M-1855 Rifle saber bayonet on a Spencer Rifle. I just slipped an original M-1855 Rifle saber  bayonet over the muzzle of an original Spencer Rifle to check it out, and it was very, very, loose. So I measured the combination. The muzzle diameter of a Spencer Rifle is 0.815" v.s. the muzzle ring diameter of a M-1855 Rifle saber bayonet, which is 0.880". That is over 1/16th of an inch slop. You wouldn't want to even try re-enacting with a combination like that.

J.
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Drydock on September 17, 2012, 12:28:27 PM
That is a lot of clearance, I thought it would be tighter than that.  However, if one wanted to do it, it would not be a hard modification, and the 1855 is the correct bayonet for those early Spencers.  Just another alternative to consider!   ;D
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Jobe Holiday on September 17, 2012, 02:02:47 PM
OK, this is fun!

It is physically impossible to mount a M-1855 Rifle saber bayonet on a Spencer Rifle, because to have clearance for the bayonet stud, especially with a wide clamping ring, you would have to move the nose cap and stock tip back one full inch.

Actually, the M-1855 Rifle bayonet is not the correct bayonet for any Spencer. The correct saber bayonet is a Collins type, much like the ones used on the Sharps & Hankins Navy Rifles. If you will take a look at the photo on page 41, of Roy Marcot's book, you will see a very good photo of the proper saber bayonet hilt mounted on a Spencer Rifle. It is most definately not a M-1855 Rifle bayonet.

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/jobephoto.jpg)
                             page 41, (Photo Posted by Two Flints)

In addition, the M-1855 Rifle bayonet was not used on the M-1841 Mississippi Rifle. The brass hilt saber bayonet used on the Mississippi by Harper's Ferry Armory was designed specifically for the Mississippi and used the same blade, but it eliminated the heavy decorative lug on top of the muzzle ring. The later saber bayonet adaptions to the Mississippi Rifles as done by the various states for use in the Civil War all used variations of the Collins saber bayonet.

Jobe
Society of American Bayonet Collectors (SABC)
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Drydock on September 17, 2012, 04:33:21 PM
I bow to the expert, and will only say that my books are sadly dated and far too general in information!   :)
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Jobe Holiday on September 17, 2012, 06:25:20 PM
Thank you all, for taking this interesting discourse in the vein it was intended, a bit of fun research, and informational. Also, a BIG thanks to Two Flints for adding the photo that I couldn't.

Jobe
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: nactorman on September 26, 2012, 09:47:13 PM
Hi Gang,

Time for an update on the Spencer Bayonet project.

Attached are a couple of pics of original Spencer bayonets and the Armi-Sport Spencer Rifle. Notice that (as Herbert correctly surmised) the placement of the front sight on the AS Spencer is significantly different from that of an original.

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/SpencerBayonet4.jpg)

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/SpencerBayonet4a.jpg)

The original bayonet will fit, but when attached, the bayonet's socket extends about .48 inch past the muzzle of the rifle. If the mortise of the bayonet is elongated in order to make it fit the AS Spencer, the locking ring will not engage the bottom of the sight and the bayonet will be able to slide forward and back.

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/SpencerBayonet5.jpg)

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/SpencerBayonet5a.jpg)

The question I have now is which re-enactors might prefer:

A) An exact copy of an original Spencer Bayonet that fits incorrectly, or...

B) A reproduction bayonet that is similar in style to an original bayonet, but that has been modified so as to fit properly on the AS Spencer (but that will not fit an original Spencer).

I tend to lean toward option B, but I wanted to see what others thought.

I welcome your feedback.

Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: PvtGreg on September 26, 2012, 09:52:20 PM
I vote B
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: nactorman on September 26, 2012, 09:55:42 PM
I guess the photos did not attach to my previous message, so I will try once more.
 
Nactorman
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on September 26, 2012, 09:55:53 PM
It is definitely "Option B" that I'd be interested in!   ;D

Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Two Flints on September 27, 2012, 04:46:42 AM
Nactorman,

I re-posted your photos and hope I put them in the correct order that you wanted.  Also, I enlarged both photos to show the socket sections of the bayonets and the Spencer front sight.

Since I recently acquired an original Spencer Rifle, and have been searching for an original Spencer Rifle sling  ::) ::) and original Spencer socket bayonet  ::) ::) (one can dream, can't one ::)) I was hoping for a reproduction Spencer bayonet that would fit my original Spencer rifle correctly . . . is this option C :o :o

Also, I thought I’d add the post of several years ago appearing below from John Holland, N-SSA Small Arms Committee Chairperson, and his comment regarding the front sight of the Armi Sport Spencer Rifle and how it might apply to this thread ???  That comment is in italics and bold.  

______________________________________________________________________________________________
April 18, 2009, 06:18:28 pm

My most sincere thanks to Two Flints for posting my question to him in regards to the barrel band placement on an original M-1865 Spencer Rifle v.s. the new/current reproduction M-1865 Spencer Rifle by ArmiSport.

I also thank all of you who took the time to measure the original arms in your personal collections. The dimensions provided have confirmed my original thoughts that the barrel band placement on both the M-1860 and M-1865 Spencer Rifles are, in fact, the same.

The N-SSA isn't "sweating" anything! The lower and middle barrel bands on the current ArmiSport M-1865 Rifle are one full inch too far forward. The front sight is also a full one-half inch too far forward.  For the requirements of the N-SSA, even with our +/- tolerance of 3/8" for the barrel band placement, and 1/4" for the front sight placement, the ArmiSport is still too far out of our allowable tolerance to be accepted. I believe you will have to admit the N-SSA's +/- tolerances are fairly liberal. Arizona Trooper, who is also a past member of the N-SSA's Small Arms Committee, is correct in his statement that a large part the authenticity of the reproduction arms market today is a result of the early efforts of the N-SSA to maintain a higher standard of cosmetic authenticity in reproduction arms.

Again, I thank Two Flints and all others who assisted in this research project.

Sincerely,

Jobe
N-SSA Small Arms Committee
Early Cowboy Action Shooter
Rendezvouser, etc.
______________________________________________________________________________________________

Two Flints
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: PvtGreg on September 27, 2012, 08:59:48 AM
Interesting about the email from the N-SSA guy.  I just looked at their approved repeaters and note that the AS Spencer is listed.
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on September 27, 2012, 09:39:09 PM
PvtGreg:

Only the ArmiSport Model 1865 Carbine is listed .... not the Rifle being discussed here.    :'(
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: jim on October 04, 2012, 07:24:28 PM
If your going through with this I would prefer the original style for my original rifle
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Jake Jones on October 07, 2012, 11:35:33 AM
I would be interested in 1 also
Jake Jones
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Two Flints on November 13, 2012, 08:28:01 AM
Nactorman,

Any updates, new information, on the Spencer bayonets?

Two Flints
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: nactorman on November 13, 2012, 11:26:00 PM
I'm still working on this project, but things are progressing a little slower than I had hoped because we were not able to use the original bayonet as a pattern for the reproductions. Basically, I'm working on fabricating a bayonet that looks as similar as possible to the original, but that will fit the repro rifle's different sight location and barrel diameter. I still have the original bayonet and may repop a few of those too, for those who were interested in that version. I'll post some photos soon.
  Charles
  "Nactorman"
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Mannheim Bob on November 15, 2012, 12:59:14 PM
Hi All,
  I was just wondering if any SSS folks might be interested in owning a reproduction bayonet for their Spencer rifle? I'm considering having some manufactured and just wondered if there was enough interest out there to justify the time/cost. They would be reproduced from an original piece and come with an appropriate scabbard. Anticipated cost for bayonet + scabbard would be about $55-$65 ea. Any thoughts?
  Charles Misulia
  "nactorman"

  Yes, I would be interested in such a bayonet.  I have an original 3-band 1860 rifle, and a bayonet to match would be aa nice accessory for my collection.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Two Flints on February 01, 2013, 12:37:31 PM
How is the bayonet project going?  Had to ask ;D
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on August 22, 2019, 08:20:01 PM
Just wondering if this project got "shelved" and, if so, what might be the chances of reviving it?

 ;D
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Walksfire on October 07, 2019, 09:24:11 AM
As an owner of an original Spencer Carbine 1860 model, I am also interested if this saber idea got off the ground. Were Sabers only for rifles for the Navy? Or did they also get used on Calvary Carbines?
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Blair on October 07, 2019, 02:11:00 PM
Walksfire,

The sword/saber bayonet was intended or use on the Navy Rifles "only", as requested within the Navy contract. (Except for 2 hundred Rifles ordered in Oct. 1863 "without" bayonets. These Rifles were standard Army/Infantry Rifles which were made for use with socket bayonets.)
I know of NO bayonets that were used on the Carbines.
I hope this helps?
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on October 07, 2019, 11:12:09 PM
I don't believe there was any proposal to reproduce a sword/sabre bayonet ... it was going to be the socket bayonet ...

Mind you, we are not hearing from the OP, so I suspect the project didn't proceed.  Is "Nactorman" still active here?

Perhaps I should mention that a couple of years ago I was able to adapt a reproduction British pattern 1853 socket bayonet to fit on my repro Spencer rifle. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/186x812q90/923/2tFhRv.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/490x700q90/924/xhKi5X.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/270x700q90/921/QEHlzZ.jpg)

Although the socket area differs, with the channel and locking ring not being far enough forward to permit the front of the socket to be flush with the muzzle when fitted (as evident above) I was able to make other needed modifications so that it in fact fits and and locks in place quite securely.  (I believe this was also going to be a problem with the proposed reproduction Spencer bayonets if they were made to original specifications, because of the slight difference in front sight location on the reproduction rifles.)

The front sight and sight base are higher on the reproduction Spencer than on a P'1853 Enfield rifle (and,,of course the later Snider breechloading conversions of such rifles) but I was able to file out the relief slot in the bridge and locking ring so they would pass over the sight:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/477x700q90/924/VFYbdR.jpg)

Also, the Enfield/Snider-Enfield rifles were .577 caliber, so the inner diameter of the socket is a bit too generous (not as much as you might expect, however) and I was able to overcome any sloppiness of fit by puddling a bit of soft solder inside the socket, and then judiciously filing the solidified puddle lower (using a curved-profile rasp) until the socket slides snugly onto the barrel just enough to permit the locking ring to rotate firmly into engagement.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/513x700q90/921/8kapPH.jpg)

Not absolutely correct in appearance (although neither is the reproduction rifle, really, with its slight differences in front sight, nosecap and barrel band locations) but certainly adequate enough to look the part and give me a useable bayonet should I ever get around to competing in a GAF match with the rifle ...

I wouldn't be surprised if a similar adaptation might be possible using a reproduction bayonet for the .58 Springfield rifle ...
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Blair on October 08, 2019, 11:13:12 AM
RattlesnakeJack,

You are correct about the sword/saber bayonet not being considered for the repro Spencer "Army/Infantry" Rifles.
ArmiSport could correct the front sight and the band placement on the fore stock so easily at the factory.  They could and would sell many more of them if the N-SSA accepted these corrected changes. So far AS has shown no interest in doing these changes. My only opinion on this matter is that they are not interested in making more Rifles.
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Spencer Rifle Bayonets - Any interest?
Post by: Snakeeater on December 23, 2019, 08:55:46 PM
I would be interested in two of Option A (for original rifles) if and when available