Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => NCOWS => Topic started by: Gomezy3k on October 08, 2019, 06:53:21 PM
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Life member 153
In the years I have been getting The Shootist I noticed something. Where are the young shooters? It looks like most of the members are getting as old as I am (68) or close to it. In the last issue of The Shootist I only saw 4 or 5 young people. We need to figure out a way to bring in more young people to shooting. I am not sure how to go about it so figured maybe others can come up with some ideas. Since I am the only NCOWS member here in Vegas (that I know of) I shoot with the SASS group and they are pretty much in the same boat. I don't recall any young shooters in any of their posse's either.
Anyway just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and see what everyone comes up with.
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Well .... Actually .... Nah, no help here. I'm not an NCOWS member (almost, once) but just thought I'd offer that NCOWS and CAS are inna same boat. Too few newbies. Kids aren't running around the neighborhoods playing Cowboys and Indians anymore. Sad.
PS: Forgot to add (almost), the newbies we have in SASS are really winning real regular. Youth is totally wasted on the young.
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Reality has or lack of it has settled in
anyone beyond our Baby Boomer Generation & Generation X are exposed to electronic games & gadgetry,
Unless Xennials
Millennials
Generation Y, Gen Next - iGens Generation and Gen Z go with a HIP Granddad (US) The hobby is lost in 10 - 15 years 20 tops
Gloomy yes.... a few sparks exist a hand full of youths will attend....
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Kids aren't running around the neighborhoods playing Cowboys and Indians anymore. Sad.
Well, if you think about it, how much fun would it really be playing "bovine persons of indiscriminate sex and native americans"?
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"bovine persons of indiscriminate sex and
native americans"? indigenous persons ?
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Yep, exactly! Besides, can you really imagine the fuss you'd have if the neighbors saw you chasing a kid in mocasins with a feather on his head with your finger, or God forbid, a pink or purple toy gun pointed at him or her or xi :o
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they suspend kids today in schools for pointing a finger even if they don't say bang
Then there is case where a 9 year old bit his peanut butter sandwich in the shape of a gun and was expelled ?. EXPELLED for a fricking sandwich shape :o
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Then again, I recall indiscriminate sex as still a thing among youth . . .
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Well there is that ;)
Maybe "undetermined" was the word I should have used?
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One of the hottest video games in the last couple of years is Red Dead Redemption which has a lot kids playing old west scenarios and has got their attention. There are even some airsoft fields with western towns playing a more real-time version of the game. However, these days if a kid said he wanted to go shoot real cowboys guns his mother would go nuts and the kid would get kicked out of school for mentioning it.
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We have a few kids, that shoot with us (Berger Sharpshooters and the South Carolina bunch) from time to time. They are the grand kids of several of the posse members. Several of them are in there 20's and off to the military or college, which has slowed their participation. A decent western has not been produced in years, i.e. one that you could take an 8 or 9 year old to see because of the language. Movies and TV westerns is a big part of why we do this.
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Trap, I and Col. Diamond have become involved with the 4-H Western Heritage Program. It is kinda like NCOWS for kids. They shoot old west style arms, develop personas and learn how the old west really was. I would encourage posses to look into this program. We have 3 or 4 4-H WHPs going in Kansas and 2 or three in Missouri. They are also in California & Montana.
If you are interested in getting one started in your region, I would encourage you to contact Trap. He started in in Kansas and has mentored others.
Books
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We have priced, ISPC'ed and tuned guns to the point that we discourage young'ns. Remember 30 years ago: stages shooting from a wagon, stages shooting from a saddle on a barrel, If the Duke would have carried/used/worn it, it is good to go, life size targets. A lot of fun for F(funny) New Guys.
Now not so much: need 4 guns (~$2,000), need them tuned (~$1,000), need ~$500 in clothes; then stand upright while shooting at lightning speed at steel targets you could hit by throwing your bullets.
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Preaching to the choir, Jeremiah . . . ;D
RCJ
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I would add that another problem is that history, particularly American history hasn't been taught in school for years. What passes for "history" in school is an indoctrination in political correctness.
Jeremiah's points, no knowledge of history, and the general anti-gun attitude from politicians and educators are all combining to kill off what was a lot of fun in the immediate aftermath of the first End of Trail match back in the 1980s when I first tried CAS.
In 1994 I started my own business and had to sell my 19th Century guns to fund it. When I was again in a financial position to get involved, I found it had turned into IPSC in boots. After watching a match in the early 2000s I decided not to get involved again. It had become kind of silly. Sad really.
Dave
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We have priced, ISPC'ed and tuned guns to the point that we discourage young'ns. Remember 30 years ago: stages shooting from a wagon, stages shooting from a saddle on a barrel, If the Duke would have carried/used/worn it, it is good to go, life size targets. A lot of fun for F(funny) New Guys.
Now not so much: need 4 guns (~$2,000), need them tuned (~$1,000), need ~$500 in clothes; then stand upright while shooting at lightning speed at steel targets you could hit by throwing your bullets.
This sounds more like SASS than NCOWS. 4 guns are not required in NCOWS, though if chosen as the class, all four can be used. We do not permit short stroking, so that expensive "tuning" goes away.
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You can still get started in SASS for about what you could have 20 years ago. But yes, that is still expensive. Going "IPSC" with modifications and such is a personal choice, not a requirement. Fortunately, I can still play their game my way. The most expensive parts I've had to buy have been a few springs. Being single, I can spend my money on what I want, but have chosen to spend it on more and different guns. I'm even getting a little faster, breaking 30 seconds regularly :) . I still enjoy watching the fast guys, they have fun with their short-stroked Rugers and gamy-looking leather. The nit-picking-details of the ever-growing rulebook can get a little tedious, but it tends not to bother me since I don't push the envelope. Anyway, that's SASS. Lowered participation in NCOWS and SASS I think are both due to the primary audience, us, getting old. Other reasons, sure, but growing up with westerns really ingrained it into our psyche.
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We have priced, ISPC'ed and tuned guns to the point that we discourage young'ns. Remember 30 years ago: stages shooting from a wagon, stages shooting from a saddle on a barrel, If the Duke would have carried/used/worn it, it is good to go, life size targets. A lot of fun for F(funny) New Guys.
Now not so much: need 4 guns (~$2,000), need them tuned (~$1,000), need ~$500 in clothes; then stand upright while shooting at lightning speed at steel targets you could hit by throwing your bullets.
As OK Tom mentioned, you are not describing NCOWS at all which I feel needs to be mentioned again since we are on the NCOWS page and I don't want people to be discouraged by your post.
Maybe half of our shooters shoot more than two guns, none of the short stroke race tuning is allowed, you can get into a basic outfit for really no more than a person would pay for a set of modern everyday clothes.
However I do agree this is the perception many get which may discourage a lot of potential new members which once again I would stress this is not required to play the game and have fun. In fact the ones having the most fun are probably the ones not playing the race game.
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Regarding my earlier comments. I did misstate the number of guns required for NCOWS. I stand by my comments regarding ?Tuning?. This is philosophical, but to me, tuning is more than short stroke kits. If you disassemble a gun that works fine to replace springs, hone any hint of a burr, hone the chambers of a shotgun to make shucking shells easier, etc. you are tuning. There is nothing wrong with this, I have tuned my guns. But it is another step between a FNG and old hands.
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Regarding my earlier comments. I did misstate the number of guns required for NCOWS. I stand by my comments regarding ?Tuning?. This is philosophical, but to me, tuning is more than short stroke kits. If you disassemble a gun that works fine to replace springs, hone any hint of a burr, hone the chambers of a shotgun to make shucking shells easier, etc. you are tuning. There is nothing wrong with this, I have tuned my guns. But it is another step between a FNG and old hands.
Point taken. However, the cost of this type of tuning won?t approach that $1000, unless one takes their firearms to the wrong person to do the work. If one can do this for themself, cost is around $30 to $50 per gun, which includes some extra for the cost of stones. If one does not have the know how to do it, then my advice is to check out pricing and reputation carefully from several places before spending the money. Sometimes, it will cost more because you?re buying a name. The new person should comparison shop. A good example is a Pietta made revolver needs no tuning out of the box, and is usually a few dollars less than a Uberti made revolver. Buying a rifle or, if you want to go 4-gun, a shotgun, the same comparison shopping needs to be done.
All that being said, NCOWS matches tend to be less of a race anyway, by virtue of their rules against any modifications beyond springs and some polishing.
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It is not cheap. However other than ammo, the stuff lasts forever.
I created a 1890 Gambler character for last years National Match.
Hat
borrowed
Shirt
Made by my wife in 2005
Tie
River Junction Trading Co. $ 15
Vest
Second hand $ 20
Coat
Thrift store $ 5 (modified by me)
Pants
Hamilton Dry Goods $ 20
Boots
Thrift store $ 20
Original Smith & Wesson DA .38
Gun Show $ 250
Dave Scot Shoulder Holster - $ 75
Uberti 1866 Winchester - $ 900
I believe that the total comes to $ 1305. Pro-rated over 10; its not that expensive.
Books
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Regarding my earlier comments. I did misstate the number of guns required for NCOWS. I stand by my comments regarding ?Tuning?. This is philosophical, but to me, tuning is more than short stroke kits. If you disassemble a gun that works fine to replace springs, hone any hint of a burr, hone the chambers of a shotgun to make shucking shells easier, etc. you are tuning. There is nothing wrong with this, I have tuned my guns. But it is another step between a FNG and old hands.
When I first started shooting NCOWS I ran an out of the box Cimarron 1873 and a Uberti cattleman I picked up at my local gun shop for a good price because they couldn't find any other buyer for the 44-40. I ran those two guns bone stock for two years and even came 4th one year in the open working cowboy class back then. That is saying a lot considering I'm slow as molasses on a cold winter day and no amount of action work will ever make me fast.
My point is that proves you don't need to do that action work you mention and now that I do action work to all of my guns I spend a total of about 30 dollars per gun and know quite a few gun plumbers that will do pretty much the same thing parts and all for 100 bucks. Far from the 1000 you mention and as I said above it's not necessary. Sure they may feel better and more importantly it's better for the gun but you mislead people saying they are going to have to spend that kind of money getting into the game.
I also started with an outfit from Hamilton Dry goods for 69 dollars which they still offer, put on a pair of my round toe work boots and reshaped an old hat. Good to go with my outfit for 69 dollars. I'm a long time leatherworker so obviously built my own gun rig but you can get into a custom holster and belt pretty reasonable depending on what a person wants, there are several makers that are NCOWS members that will help a fella out.
So yes I don't deny it's still an investment buying a couple guns and some accessories but please don't discourage potential new members by making it sound like they will have to take out a second mortgage to come out and have fun.
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Some of the comments, my own included, that seem more directed toward SASS are in my opinion still relevant. Where do most of the NCOWS shooters come from but SASS clubs. If SASS folds its tent and goes home how long, as a stand alone entity, will NCOWS last?
I didn't hear about NCOWS until about a year after I had to give up CAS when I started my own business. Had I know about it I think I would have joined you guys and tried to find another way to finance my business other than selling my 19th Century firearms. I would probably have been the only NCOWS member in AZ at the time but I would have signed up because I have been a Western history student my entire adult life and then some.
The point about the younger generations not being taught history is, I wonder how many serious students of the settling of the West are out there among the 30 and under crowd. Apparently not many given the trends we are discussing.
YMMV,
Dave
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Some of the comments, my own included, that seem more directed toward SASS are in my opinion still relevant. Where do most of the NCOWS shooters come from but SASS clubs. If SASS folds its tent and goes home how long, as a stand alone entity, will NCOWS last?
True, many of our members are people that leave SASS for something a bit more historical, without the arms race. But many more have never been associated with SASS. NCOWS has been a stand alone organization since it was founded in 1994. Rules have evolved some over time, but one thing has been constant - so called race guns are not permitted. Yes, you can, if you like, slick the action up a bit. Even change out the springs for lighter weight. But that is about it. Enough has been said about the outfit and how inexpensive it can be. But, should SASS fold its tent (an unlikely situations, since speed shooting draws a lot of people to it, be it Western, 3-Gun, IPSC, or any of the other tacticool styles), NCOWS will still be there, as long as there are folks interested in the historical aspect.
Back to the purpose of this thread, we do need to get more young people interested and participating. The general membership is aging. Without new, younger people coming in, NCOWS would head the way of the dinosaur as we get old and begin to reach end of life. But the same could be said about SASS - its membership is also aging. It has a larger base of members than NCOWS, and as I mentioned, the highly competitive speed shooting has its draw for certain people. Having served for years as the National Secretary for NCOWS, I am quite familiar with the demographics of new members. Many join for the magazine (it is much nicer than a newsletter). Many join just because they agree with our principles. Many never even join a shooting posse. And many come in as seniors (over 60) as a new hobby. Then again, many younger people join, even with their families. Lately, I have processed new memberships for grandchildren of long term members. I think we will hang in there.
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One thing to point out as mentioned, copious amounts of "field-tested" gear, clothing and firearms are readily available because individuals are always upgrading, recycling due to weight change, or just thinning out their closet or gun safe.
Most clubs have regular table sales of member's used stuff, and the prices are at a bargain.
Add to this, every club would grant generous allowance while a newbie assembles their kit. They'll even loan stuff to get you started.
It's not like we stand back to see if someone new has the strength and endurance, the wherewithal, to scramble up over the rim of the canyon to join us. Hell, we're reaching a helping hand over the edge or throwing down ropes to help you make it. We all want new converts to the sport.
RCJ
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All that being said, NCOWS matches tend to be less of a race anyway, by virtue of their rules against any modifications beyond springs and some polishing.
This may a bit off topic but I'd to add this to Oklahoma Tom's fine comments. At the 2016 NCOWS Midwest Regionals Red Lodge Rambler shot one 1858 Remington Revolver in a two pistol class and loaded an extra cylinder on the clock. Beartooth Billy shot a clean match using four Firearms that were all over one hundred years old. Those Gentlemen were fun to watch.
For my Grandson who has shot NCOWS and SASS matches with me, I bought him a pair of $10.00 black jeans from Walmart. I removed one of the back pockets and belt loops then installed suspender buttons.
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First a CAVEAT: I'm not an NCOWS member. I have however, been playing in the SASS game for well over 20 years and was, for most of 20 years a CAS Gunsmith (I retired). I have always felt the technology race was somehow "wrong" even though I made a pile of money doing it. SO:
The CAS games are suffering the same fate. The days of Saturday matinees, Saturday morning reruns of old Westerns and Prime Time TV Western programs are long gone. Those of us who grew up playing Cowboys and Indians throughout the neighborhood are now ..... some older. We're just getting too old to play. The young today are growing up on electronic screen games and Virtual Reality games. No interest in what we do.
Because of the above, the CAS games we play, both SASS and NCOWS are slowly dying. Kicking, screaming and clawing off the cliff, but dying none the less. Not enough infusion of young folks that wish to do what we do. It's an inexorable failing, something like the demise of the Glaciers. And it's a crying shame.
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No Sir, it won?t ever be over! As long as we keep showing up and shooting matches, it will keep going. As long as there is one father, or one grandfather, bringing his kid to the matches and teaching her or him to shoot, it will not be over. I know this because that?s me doing just that.
With all due respect, we must not let ourselves get discouraged when participation seems to slow down. We need to have faith and each of do our best to keep it going. Maybe we will have a small turnout sometimes, but at other times we will have more attendees. The idea is that if you believe in this and if you enjoy it then let?s keep working at it, and at recruiting new members.
Frankly, I have personally enjoyed more quality family time at our matches and other NCOWS events than nearly anything else we do, and my kids feel likewise. Please consider coming to a match and please consider joining NCOWS. You don?t have to shoot fast to have fun shooting, but if you like to shoot fast, some our folks will happily give you a run for your money.
As always, I remain,
Yr. obt. svt.,
Sgt. Henry, Marshal
SC Old West Shootists
(An NCOWS posse)
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Hi,
I shoot at both Oklahoma City Gun Club and Tri-City Gun Club. Many of the youngin's are shooting a similar course of fire to SASS, but using Glocks and pistol caliber carbines of some sort. I'm also amazed at the number of shooters in High Power. I never got into it because the (then) closest high power range was 2 hours away.
Just another $0.02.
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never to old or to infirmed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB7iz1HTh9U
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I hope there wasn't anything downrange for a long ways. Looked pretty irresponsible to me to not have someone competent spotting Grandma. I am glad they got her involved, but you have to be safe.
My .02, Mike
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There is an NCOWS posse near me, but my problem is expense of clothing, leather, and long guns.
I really want to join. Clothing for me may be difficult due to size and I am retired medically so pension is..... weak.
I have the handguns, and reloading set up and have been eyeing this for a bit.
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If size you mean 2XL shirts, vests and pants in 42+", let me know. I'll donate some quality "field-tested" duds.
RCJ
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I appreciate it River City John!
But I'm meaning 4 or 5x depending on maker..... :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Hey...2 years ago I wore 8x.... :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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Good for you, medic15al!
Like many, my closet is a testimonial to weight fluctuation. I likely have 3XL in shirts and vests, and up to 50"-52" in pants. Offer still stands seeing as you are slimming down. Maybe we'll meet somewhere in the middle soon . . .
So let me know.
Are you handy with needle and thread? I may still have the odd pattern good for all sizes, and some bolts of fabric I'll never get to. Plus, if you check out the second-hand clothing shops, there are lots of clothing begging alterations that will be good for period look.
There have been several articles in The Shootist about altering modern clothing to look period. I don't have them bookmarked, but one was making a sack coat.
Here's Marlan Ingram's excellent article on creating the look.
http://ncows.com/library/pdf/CreatingTheOutfit.pdf
Our Secretary, I believe, was working with someone who was putting all past articles, with index, in The Shootist online for reference. Perhaps someone can chime in on whether this has been done.
RCJ
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Just noticed this thread. I too, am not an NCOWS member. The BP club I belong to is the umbrella to four shooting clubs. Three are BP clubs, two lost their ranges. The other is an NCOWS club. So, by agreement belonging to one club gives you open invitation to shoot with any of the other clubs. I have only been to two matches. This past weekend was my first one shooting. Now, since I have been involved with BP shooting and historical reenacting since the early 90's. I'm probably not your typical first timer. I had enough clothing and my buddy had a spare sabre belt and a couple of holsters that I borrowed to start. I confess, I sold all my CW stuff quite a few years back. In the interim being the type I am. I purchased a pair of 1884 trousers and an 1874 Infantry blouse from S&S Firearms. Then bought an 1873 Trapdoor that I had been eyeing for awhile and an Uberti SAA that fell in my lap. I do have a couple of reenactor grade brass framed (yeah I already hear the chuckles) BP revolvers that I plan to use in the future, I'm a glutton for punishment. My point, I spent some money to do this but I didn't have to. I heard mention that even local clubs should adhere to the Talleybook. I wanted to be dressed and at least look like I fit in. I have seen guys show up in modern jeans, cowboy boots, tennis shoes and t shirts. They weren't made unwelcome, turned away or not allowed to shoot. If you are interested, I say go. You might be pleasantly surprised.
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Just noticed this thread. I too, am not an NCOWS member. The BP club I belong to is the umbrella to four shooting clubs. Three are BP clubs, two lost their ranges. The other is an NCOWS club. So, by agreement belonging to one club gives you open invitation to shoot with any of the other clubs. .....
Thank you Robert -
time to smell the burnt toast.
If we are to survive, this is how we must do it. Regroup and cooperate.
We grew up on cowboy films, tv etc. Some on real farms and ranches.
Kids now are growing up on computer devices.
If they are aren't in a rural setting they almost certainly won't be shooting.
yhs
prof marvel
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PLUS ONE too Professor Marvel.
Don't look now. Butt. CAS and NCOWS and SASS are slowly dying. Kicking and Screaming, but dyeing none the less. No "B" Westerns. No proliferation of Old West movies. No Saturday Matinees.
No Westerns/Cowboys on TV. Rather than being saturated with "Cowboy" and "Westerns" the youth are sitting on "something" with a Game Controller. Sorry. This tirade is the same thing the Prof. said just more Verbose. Burma Shave
Hide and Watch
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I'm just living the life as long as I can. Over the past few years, a number of folks locally have expressed an interest in NCOWS, but alas, when it was time to put up or shut up, we never heard from them again. And these were not youngsters. We are still scratching our gray and bald heads trying to figure out what turned them off. I'm told the same is happening in most of the other reenactment groups.
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And this is sad as I'm really wanting to get in it. I need to go to next shoot and see what I can do.
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“A man is not finished when he is defeated. He is only finished when he quits.”
(Roger Stone, quoting Richard M. Nixon)
In our posse we have a young man, in his early 20s, who shot his first match earlier this year. He returned and joined up at the next match. Recently he invested in a pair of new Vaqueros and his own gun belt and holsters. Last match he acquired a Winchester 1897 from another member. We are on the lookout for a Model 1873. By way of full disclosure he is family. But he was committed enough that he spent his own money on his guns and equipment.
Most of our posse are also active SASS members and those matches are very well attended by all age groups. Most of the same folks attend most of the matches each month, regardless of home posse affiliation. Many SASS, as well as NCOWS, folks have come and helped me learn the ropes for holding matches, when I was much newer at doing that. I am still learning and I am still very grateful for all the help I receive.
When we get new shooters we all work at trying to make them feel welcome. That was one of the first things I noticed when I was new and a big part of why I signed up. When our matches are over, unlike those of some other shooting disciplines, we Cowboys don’t cut and run. Everyone stays and helps put the steel away. NCOWS or SASS, it’s just the Cowboy way.
I have always observed a high level of commitment amongst all of the Cowboys in general, at the matches, conventions, and other events. It saddens me when folks talk like all of this is dying. If everyone were to believe that, then maybe it really would be over. We keep holding matches and folks keep showing up to shoot. I don’t think they come just for the coffee and donuts. The important thing (as my father once told me) is to get back up on that horse and not to quit.
We normally shoot the second Sunday of each month (except November) and the 5th Saturday of such months in which they occur. New shooters are welcome and are given a year’s grace to get outfitted. Please go to the ncows.com website for more info on NCOWS, ours and other posses, and our match schedules and locations.
Thank you and as always, I remain,
Yr. obt. svt.,
Sgt. R. Henry, Marshal
S.C. Old West Shootists
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"When we get new shooters we all work at trying to make them feel welcome. That was one of the first things I noticed when I was new and a big part of why I signed up."
Yr. obt. svt.,
Sgt. R. Henry, Marshal
S.C. Old West Shootists
[/quote]
I haven't joined the organization but that above statement stuck with me. Being new to this manner of shooting, When all was over, I was asked if I had a good time? All I can say is ... yep...
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As far as "tuning" goes, it's not "parts changing" !! It involves parts manipulation, understanding of "forces applied" the replacement of flat springs vs coil torsion springs. Knowing what to do /not to do is key and that comes from "those that know". It's an art that is about to be lost forever so embracing those that can help rather than making them " expensive necessities " that can offer a "safe" race gun rather than a "fixed up" stocker may make more sense?
Mike
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In our neck of the woods, the SASS matches are generally well attended. The SASS participants enjoy the very close targets and speed. Unfortunately, getting just a few to experience NCOWS has been very difficult. In the past couple of years I think we have only attracted maybe 3 new individuals. We bend over backwards to make newcomers feel welcome. There are plenty of guns to loan, and a complete kit can be put together over an 18 month period.
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"When we get new shooters we all work at trying to make them feel welcome. That was one of the first things I noticed when I was new and a big part of why I signed up."
Yr. obt. svt.,
Sgt. R. Henry, Marshal
S.C. Old West Shootists
[/quote]
“I haven't joined the organization but that above statement stuck with me. Being new to this manner of shooting, When all was over, I was asked if I had a good time? All I can say is ... yep...“
That’s the Cowboy way. Welcome aboard.
Sgt. Henry
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Wife and I have been NCOWS members for maybe 3 years. We enjoy it immensely, and it is the camaraderie as much as it is the actual shooting. We have sons and grandsons that like to shoot. Even a couple of grand daughters. I have shown them my small collection of cowboy guns and they all love those guns. They have all been invited to attend one of the shoots, but so far, none have shown up. I still have hope.
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One of the hottest video games in the last couple of years is Red Dead Redemption which has a lot kids playing old west scenarios and has got their attention. There are even some airsoft fields with western towns playing a more real-time version of the game. However, these days if a kid said he wanted to go shoot real cowboys guns his mother would go nuts and the kid would get kicked out of school for mentioning it.
Red dead (at least the new one) is pretty mind blowing in its attention to minute historical detail. Feels like walking into an living old photo at times. They obviously take liberties, but there's plenty of places where they don't.
And true, it's beloved by critics and fans alike. The interest in westerns is there.
Something else, "playing dress up in public," or "cosplay" as they call it now, is far more acceptable than it maybe ever was was for teenagers and even people in their 20s-40s. So the costuming aspect shouldn't be a barrier either.
Going to gun ranges, even in California before I moved 2 months ago, I saw a ton of young people out there. So I don't know if its just about helicopter moms.
There might be a self-fulfilling prophecy at work — many young people may be finding out about western shooting online, see event pics and check out their local posse on the internet and see no young people at all, and thus think it isn't an activity for them / feel like it would be awkward to show up and socialize with strangers who are decades outside of their age range.
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Alright... from a "younger" shooter's perspective... NCOWS L-198
Background first... I am an teacher, a parent, and an Eagle Scout, an NRA Certified instructor, a part time gun sales associate, and otherwise active gogetter.
For all organizations there has been a decline in committed membership (religious, masonic, scouting, and the list goes on...)
Fear is what drives education, not indoctrination... even your most conservative teachers are afraid of offending x and losing our meager salary... I have seen some very poor decisions made, because we were afraid of what someone "might" say. Sure there are those who do believe in disarmament and schools are not fighting that either. I am not allowed a first amendment as a teacher, because I am in a position of authority. With this, I agree with the statement "No action, is an action!" (Sorry, that is as political as I will be, hopefully it was not too much for the forum rules...)
As a younger person money is a barrier... loving my kids comes first, feeding them and giving them life experience and opportunities follows closely behind (I hear some of you saying, "teaching them about firearms is loving them and giving them experience" and I agree)
I would say the number one barrier for new shooter's has always been and always will be TIME... (this is the same problem for other organizations, as well)...
Finding a range, finding equipment, finding accouterments, finding or making ammunition, research, research, research. All to walk up to a match or annual meeting to have some curmudgeon criticize your work, because it isn't correct. (Thankfully, this never happened to me... I have the best Posse!!)
Getting to and from matches isn't always easy and the matches sometimes take all day... not terrible to spend a day out shooting, but then comes the cleaning, the reloading... not to mention my wife at home with the younger ones who won't keep their muffs on. All worth it to the right person!
It isn't "easy" to find NCOWS, SASS,or BP organizations, or the right firearms. It is easy to find modern firearms, and if someone is only going to buy a single firearm, then they will miss out on the fun of CAS.
Reactive targets make the world go 'round
I put forth... (and am going to propose to my posse...)
If a club would have an open range day...
A publicized day (or two) where "other" firearms are welcome with all members helping to run small scenarios, educate on period correctness, shooting style, and the chance to see how fun single actions really can be... (kind of a mini convention) Then awareness would increase, fun with firearms would increase, and membership would increase!
The Scouts were starting to do CAS (your posse might also volunteer some help with that if they are running this at their summer camps)
Knob Creek anyone?
This would increase security needs as it makes people aware of your range, but the awareness of the sport would breath new life into the posses.
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Money is a big problem for the younger generation. I have a grand daughter that seems quite interested, but I may need to step up and help her with purchasing the correct rifle and revolver.
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At 56, I’m not sure I count as new blood, but, though I’m an experienced shooter, I’m brand new to the whole CAS thing, in fact I haven’t attended a match yet.
I will say I’m much more drawn to the history, and somewhat to movie characters I’ve always liked, and of course to the shooting itself, though the speed thing is less interesting.
Anyway, hoping to hit a match in the coming weeks, if it doesn’t get cancelled, and we’ll see where I fit in to this world.
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Snake Oil,
our club, Blue River Regulators, regularly(pre pandemic) offers a Greenhorn shoot to introduce potential members to all the fun. Our people provide guidance at each stage and most bring an assortment of hardware and leather to try.
We once hosted a group from Scandinavia, outfitted them with clothing, leather and firearms. Great fun to see their smiling, appreciative faces.
RCJ
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At 56, I’m not sure I count as new blood, but, though I’m an experienced shooter, I’m brand new to the whole CAS thing, in fact I haven’t attended a match yet.
I will say I’m much more drawn to the history, and somewhat to movie characters I’ve always liked, and of course to the shooting itself, though the speed thing is less interesting.
Anyway, hoping to hit a match in the coming weeks, if it doesn’t get cancelled, and we’ll see where I fit in to this world.
Obviously speed does enter into the picture, but in my opinion, accuracy is more important. I will never be fast, I am simply too old and wobbly, and so what if I don't get a good score? I still have a LOT of fun.
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I am afraid a combination of the new administration's luke warm stance towards guns, COVID and the non-availability of bullets will pretty much doom CAS and many other gun sports to a slow death. I have not been able to find .45 Colt ammo locally for 6 months and online it is high as a cat's back. I am hearing it might b 2022 before the supply returns o 2019 levels.
PLEASE do NOT take this thread any more political than I just did. I would hate to see it locked.
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I am afraid a combination of the new administration's luke warm stance towards guns, COVID and the non-availability of bullets will pretty much doom CAS and many other gun sports to a slow death. I have not been able to find .45 Colt ammo locally for 6 months and online it is high as a cat's back. I am hearing it might b 2022 before the supply returns o 2019 levels.
PLEASE do NOT take this thread any more political than I just did. I would hate to see it locked.
I think we all have those same thoughts and fears, but I am TRYING to maintain a positive attitude about the whole thing. I have enough ammo already loaded to get us through this next season, but after that it gets sketchy.
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For the ammo thing, I think if someone can't get primers, (possibly me) or
other components. That we should relax a rule or two. For instance, if they have
22 ammo and guns, we should do anything to get them to shoot. IMHO.
BTB
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As long as we're not going political, Thank God for a new administration!
(I didn't want to, but I just had to go political. ;D)
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:( Oh Poo :(
Sadly, NCOWS suffers the same malady as CAS/SASS. No "real" new blood. Current young haven't been raised on Saturday Cowboy Matinees, B Western movies, Prime Time Western Shows, all that stuff. they have grown up with First Person Shooter electronic games on their Play Stations. Younger parents suffer the same conditions.
Add to the above, the current lack of shooting supplies and things get even worse. I have been commenting on the Slow, Lingering Death of CAS for some time now. It's obvious with the universal decline in participation. Winter Range and EOT use to host 850+ shooters. Now lucky to break 500. Same Same with the "Annual" matches around the country. I don't see any kind of fix anytime soon.
Current and past politics will have little if any effect. While welcomed by the Majority, don't expect and earth shaking changes to most firearms policies. Some Yes, most no. Relax. Don't get yer knickers in a twist. Bad things just aren't gonna happen. Look Forward with anticipation of a better tomorrow.
People are Hazardous to yer Health
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Obviously speed does enter into the picture, but in my opinion, accuracy is more important. I will never be fast, I am simply too old and wobbly, and so what if I don't get a good score? I still have a LOT of fun.
What’s the saying the “operator” guys like to use... “slow is smooth, and smooth is fast”.
I’m looking forward to shooting, it’s been a while since I’ve been to a range.
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Blue River Regulators, regularly(pre pandemic) offers a Greenhorn shoot to introduce potential members to all the fun. Our people provide guidance at each stage and most bring an assortment of hardware and leather to try.
RJC, thank you for the insight that it can work... if you wouldn't mind sharing an invite to your next greenhorn shoot I would appreciate it... I may not be able to make it, but would like to try, just to see it first hand.
How did you get hooked up with a group from Scandinavia?
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I'm not really sure how we ended up with our Scandinavian guests. I believe they were going to be in the area for business or agricultural trade purposes and had the itch to do some Cowboy shooting and contacted one of our members. Hopefully someone from our club will jump in and give the history.
I do know the Japanese businessmen who shot with us one time were from Corporate headquarters of a local manufacturing plant where several of our members were employed.
Next time we plan a Greenhorn shoot, we'll let you know.
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For the ammo thing, I think if someone can't get primers, (possibly me) or
other components. That we should relax a rule or two. For instance, if they have
22 ammo and guns, we should do anything to get them to shoot. IMHO.
BTB
JCR did that for a while back during the ammo/primer shortage about ten years ago.
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JCR has tried a couple of things to attract new shooters with minimal success.
We once set up a table display at one of the bigger gun shows and posse members manned the table to explain what NCOWS was all about. It attracted a LOT of attention and interest at the show but few ever showed up at the range. I think our range being an hour away had a lot to do with that.
We also tried an "Introduction Day" where we invited people to give it a try for free and even offered to loan guns and provide ammunition to try shooting a stage with instruction. We had a few people show up and a couple even joined the posse.
I am not sure what it is that holds people up. I have talked to a lot friends about our cowboy matches and they seem interested and say they would like see or try it someday but they almost never follow through.
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I am not sure what it is that holds people up. I have talked to a lot friends about our cowboy matches and they seem interested and say they would like see or try it someday but they almost never follow through.
Performance anxiety coupled with wallet anxiety . . .
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Last winter I spent a couple months in Tombstone Az. I printed up
new membership brochures before I retired. I left a pile at the front
street museum in Dodge City. And handed out several in Tombstone.
Unfortunately no one had heard of NCOWS, they have a SASS club there
and lots of reenactors, so the perfect fit right?? The thing I heard the
most was, it sounds really cool but there are no posses or shoots within
hundreds of miles. So to pay $45 for 4 magazines, they just aren't doing
it. We need a couple people there to get a posse started, but me being
1500 miles away is pretty hard. Our group, being a historical group I would
absolutely love to see a posse in those 2 towns.
BTB
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If you are ever back in Tombstone give me a call. Cell # sent in a PM.
wM1
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My oldest son is now a member.
Slim
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My oldest son is now a member.
Slim
I'm proud to know Runs with Scissors, a great young man!
Major B. N. Scotty
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Runs With Scissors is a great alias. There was a gunsmith in Austin with that alias (SASS, although I don't know if he actually joined or not) who was just stopping CAS about the time I started.
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I am not sure what it is that holds people up. I have talked to a lot friends about our cowboy matches and they seem interested and say they would like see or try it someday but they almost never follow through.
.....I'm late to the party on this since I only became involved last year. Even then it was difficult to find lead bullets, brass and large rifle primers for a 45-70. That situation sure isn't improving. Unless you have years worth of supplies, shooting is going to be limited. I'm retired and spending savings to shoot isn't high on the list. Coming from a BP background, the amount of shooting alarms some.
At least around here, your garden variety shoots are usually only 20-25 shots. Coming to a CAS event and shooting 90-100 rounds and using 4 guns in addition to spending a whole day. It's more than some want to commit to. Don't get me wrong here. The local club has some classes that allow one to shoot with a lesser number of guns. There are some in the club not in favor of these classes due to minimal participants. If you have to purchase your firearms. Attracting new people is going to be difficult in the short term. Just my .02rmabling cents.......
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.....I'm late to the party on this since I only became involved last year. Even then it was difficult to find lead bullets, brass and large rifle primers for a 45-70. That situation sure isn't improving. Unless you have years worth of supplies, shooting is going to be limited. I'm retired and spending savings to shoot isn't high on the list. Coming from a BP background, the amount of shooting alarms some.
At least around here, your garden variety shoots are usually only 20-25 shots. Coming to a CAS event and shooting 90-100 rounds and using 4 guns in addition to spending a whole day. It's more than some want to commit to. Don't get me wrong here. The local club has some classes that allow one to shoot with a lesser number of guns. There are some in the club not in favor of these classes due to minimal participants. If you have to purchase your firearms. Attracting new people is going to be difficult in the short term. Just my .02rmabling cents.......
In favor or not ALL of NCOWS allows two gun categories and they seem to be the most popular even when ammo and supplies are not limited. Unless your local club you speak of is not NCOWS.
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In favor or not ALL of NCOWS allows two gun categories and they seem to be the most popular even when ammo and supplies are not limited. Unless your local club you speak of is not NCOWS.
...yes, we have the two gun categories. Two pistols or one pistol and a single shot rifle is still 60 rounds. A buddy and I between us are OK supply wise for a bit. If you are just starting and have nothing. It's going to be tough sledding until or unless things settle down. Yes our local group is NCOWS.
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I think a lot of the shooting sports are having tremendous difficulty nowadays, between the still out of control covid, job losses, business closings, quarantines, the reloading component and ammo unavailability and the big elephant in the room - the new administrations attempts to curtail our the 2nd Amendment rights. Folks are afraid to shoot ammo or use components that they aren’t sure that they can replace let alone the outrageous costs associated with a simple 150 rd monthly match. I really can’t see anyone new getting involved in an organized shooting sport in the foreseeable future. A sad time. I saw the writing on the wall years ago and bought reloading supplies. I don’t belong to NCOWS as my cas club is a combination of SASS [unaffiliated] and WASA, in fact we shoot a WASA match next Saturday, a double action and a 1911. Unfortunately Americans have a ways to go before we are back where we were before covid. Stay safe all.
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I've been following this topic since Gomezy3K started it about 16 months ago. Needing new blood. Really nothing new, more of a continuous issue. A few months back I finally joined NCOWS, and also picked up 20+ years of Shootist magazines, which I am very slowly going through. I read that in 2000, there was a membership-drive called "2000 in 2000". After a year or so, the tally showed 134 (IIRC) new members in 2000. With the natural attrition of some folks passing on and others dropping out, it was close to a wash. Bear in mind that this was during the humongous growth period of CAS.
I don't have any answers. Some ideas folks come up with can help but I think only a little bit. But I do think the sport will continue for some time, just slowly fading. The current ammo/primer situation certainly doesn't help, but it is temporary. I haven't been to an NCOWS match yet but intend to this year. Since the nearest club is about 5 or 6 hours, I will be danged if I'm going to go and just shoot 2 guns! Fortunately I should be in pretty good shape for this coming year with ammo.
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I think a lot of the shooting sports are having tremendous difficulty nowadays, between the still out of control covid, job losses, business closings, quarantines, the reloading component and ammo unavailability and the big elephant in the room - the new administrations attempts to curtail our the 2nd Amendment rights. Folks are afraid to shoot ammo or use components that they aren’t sure that they can replace let alone the outrageous costs associated with a simple 150 rd monthly match. I really can’t see anyone new getting involved in an organized shooting sport in the foreseeable future. A sad time. I saw the writing on the wall years ago and bought reloading supplies. I don’t belong to NCOWS as my cas club is a combination of SASS [unaffiliated] and WASA, in fact we shoot a WASA match next Saturday, a double action and a 1911. Unfortunately Americans have a ways to go before we are back where we were before covid. Stay safe all.
My thoughts as well
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Hi
In the past, more sports were populated by kids who tagged along with their parents including trap, skeet, golf, tennis, hunting, and reenacting. With the advent of McDonald's being a "career" as opposed to a high school job, anybody with children (that isn't related to Bezos) can't afford most of those sports anymore. That's afford for their children and possibly for themselves. My Dad was born in 1919 and said he played 18 innings of unofficial baseball a day during the summer, and 27 innings on the weekends.
I played a lot of baseball growing up, way more unofficial than official.
My kid born in 1987 played more than double the hours of official baseball than he did sandlot. Heck except for me playing pitch and catch, he didn't play any unofficial.
In short, its not just a reenacting problem or even a shooting problem.
Later
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From my observation at $1 plus round , = $30 stage and $180 a 6 stage match :o
add that to start up guns prices.....
reality sets in ...and nobody is gonna ....they may have interest , but Green fees are cheaper ! and fishing puts food on the table.
The hobby was on a collision course as current participants aged out , covid pandemic & the Ammo/component shortage
have hastened the due course.
Local range is seeing little attendance, as shooters are conserving what they might have, in hopes prices and available supplies might return to more palatable level
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It has become a very expensive sport as everything that makes shooting what it is is a consumable, powder, primers and bullets. You might occasionally recover some lead to recast. At least hunting puts something in the freezer if you have a legal place to hunt. The alternative is that we are just gun collectors. I’ve said it for years that while there are a lot of gun owners and gun collectors in America there are too few shooters, even more new gun owners today. If there were as many shooters as golfers and tennis players our sport would be rock solid with no threats to it’s future. Major2 has correctly stated our sport’s dilemma but unfortunately I don’t see any real solution. CAS had kicked the can down the road but if you removed the old farts from the sport how many would be left. The failure of Founders Ranch is a prime example. I plan to enjoy my firearms as long as I can afford to and am physically able to. Stay safe all.
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It has become a very expensive sport as everything that makes shooting what it is is a consumable, powder, primers and bullets. You might occasionally recover some lead to recast. At least hunting puts something in the freezer if you have a legal place to hunt. The alternative is that we are just gun collectors. I’ve said it for years that while there are a lot of gun owners and gun collectors in America there are too few shooters, even more new gun owners today. If there were as many shooters as golfers and tennis players our sport would be rock solid with no threats to it’s future. Major2 has correctly stated our sport’s dilemma but unfortunately I don’t see any real solution. CAS had kicked the can down the road but if you removed the old farts from the sport how many would be left. The failure of Founders Ranch is a prime example. I plan to enjoy my firearms as long as I can afford to and am physically able to. Stay safe all.
Shooting overall is not a cheap hobby but compared to other shooting sports CAS is pretty cheap.
It's probably comparable to 3 gun or trap shooting it's all in how much you shoot but CAS doesn't require real expensive reloading equipment and the guns, brass, and bullets are cheap compared to other shooting sports like bench rest, PRS, F-class, etc.
The guns are an investment, decide to do something different and you can pretty much get your money back. CAS guns pretty much last forever unlike rifle shooting where you are replacing barrels every few thousand rounds.
I used to truck pull in my younger days so I consider any shooting sports a cheap hobby. LOL Now that I'm retired I have to do what I can afford and enjoy and CAS is one of the cheapest shooting sports and I love the history aspect of it.
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I hate to hear all the gloom and doom about cost. The first shoot I went
to 20 years ago, I bought 44/40 ammo and very quickly decided I had to
reload. So reusing brass and casting bullets, it was costing me about 4 cents
each. Now if I load smokeless and have primers at normal cost, it's about 8 cents.
So still a very cheap sport/hobby. I paid $3100 for my Shiloh sharps 15 years ago
and have enjoyed it immensely, and have been offered more than I paid for it a
couple times. So my friends go buy a $60,000 bass boat or a $10,000 snowmobile
and see how much you get in a couple years.
BTB
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I just moved to North Texas and would love to go to a Ncows 22 LR shoot. better then nothing.
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In my neck of the woods, hunting, shooting, and many of your outdoor sports are on the decline. And I live in a fairly rural area.
Cost, time, and competition from other endeavors certainly plays a part. If you live in an urban area, it’s even harder. I can shoot in my backyard but if I had to drive and pay, it would be a deterrent. And an anti gun administration doesn’t help matters at all.