Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: Chance on March 19, 2018, 12:18:36 PM
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Does anyone use this powder for CAS loading? I'm looking for loads for .32/20, /38/40 and .44/40
Chance
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I just checked their reloading pages. No listing for the classic W.C.F. cartridges?! ??? :'(
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/cowboy-action-reloading/
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I use 9.7 gr with a 160 gr lead bullet in my Krag. A nice load that's got some juice but is easy on my steel. Can't help you with the other loads I'm afraid. Liked the Tin Star better than the fluffy donut powder whose name eludes me right now.
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I just checked their reloading pages. No listing for the classic W.C.F. cartridges?! ??? :'(
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/cowboy-action-reloading/
I checked that already and cannot understand why they make a "cowboy" powder without catering for these classic calibres.
Chance
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Handloader magazine no.288 Feb/March 2014 had an article on it. Might be helpful if you can get a copy. Sometimes the publisher has back issues.
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At End of Trail several years ago I wound up with 2 lb of this powder. Never could find Reloading Data for the cartridges I wanted to reload. What am I missing? Seems like Evil Roy was the spokesperson for this stuff for some time. And they certainly have branded this powder for cowboy action shooting which one would surmise means cowboy ammo reloading...
I still have those two pounds, by the way. One of these days I'll figure it out.
;)
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In the past I had trouble finding it listed as Tin Star, but found more info "here and there" through search engines by using
N32C as my search criteria. I'd try the VV alphanumeric naming of Tin Star (N32C). Just leave Tin Star off and type 44/40 N32C or 44 wcf N32C.
https://www.vihtavuori.com/powders/tis-star-powder/ (https://www.vihtavuori.com/powders/tis-star-powder/)
Yes, I also think it's a baffoon move for them to market a "Cowboy Powder" and not have official load data for Dash cartridges. Especially when they have had over a decade to come up with some data. But... it's their house.
I haven't used any in years, probably because I'm chea... ahem.. thrifty ;)
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I swear that if you took the little cylinders that are Tin Star and sliced them into little washers it would be TrailBoss.
It may not be, but it sure looks like it.
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Ahem. Not to fling disparaging connotations at Vihta whomever ..... but powder for those "classic" old "dash" calibers is simple to find. Just start with ffg or fffg. The actual recipe is easy to find as well.
this has been one of those "public service" announcements not intended to provide an real meaningful additional information to the OP nor incite excitement over new and wonderful previously unknown data. Therefore can and probably should be disregarded by everyone. :o
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Ahem. Not to fling disparaging connotations at Vihta whomever ..... but powder for those "classic" old "dash" calibers is simple to find. Just start with ffg or fffg. The actual recipe is easy to find as well.
this has been one of those "public service" announcements not intended to provide an real meaningful additional information to the OP nor incite excitement over new and wonderful previously unknown data. Therefore can and probably should be disregarded by everyone. :o
why, thank you coffin ;D
yhs
prof marvel
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This thread got me curious enough to order Handloader No. 288 to see what it had to say about Tin Star. Also has articles on 45-70 which I recently started playing with.
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Is there any indication of how it should be used in the calibres I mentioned? If so Ill order a copy.
Chance
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Here's my experience...
.45 Colt...7.3 gr. Tin Star, 250 gr. RNFP lead bullet - 640 fps
8.3 gr. " " - 842 fps ....this in SAA 5 1/2" revolver
8.5 gr. " " - 1033 fps ...this in Pedersoli Colt Lightning rifle 20" bbl.
Pleasant loads to shoot. Shoots to the sights at 25 yards. No excess pressure signs. With Lightning rifle, almost no blowback.
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Is there any indication of how it should be used in the calibres I mentioned? If so Ill order a copy.
Chance
I will be sure to let you know if there is data on the Winchester dash cartridges. I am also interested in the same information and it should be here in a few days as I received an email that it was shipped today.
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Is there any indication of how it should be used in the calibres I mentioned? If so Ill order a copy.
Chance
Received my copy of Handloader #288 which has an article on Tin Star by R.H. VanDenburg. He only mention 44-40 in your list as a load of 7.5 grains under a 200 grain bullet for a velocity of 793FPS out of a revolver.
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Thanks for that, tb.
Chance
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I've been experimenting with Tin Star for a few weeks now in .45 Schofield with 200 and 225 gr. bullets.
It's working nicely for me, particularly with the 225 gr. projectile. It isn't as bulky as Trail Boss but does fill the cases to the point that the dreaded double charge is not a worry.
Load data is scarce so start low, use a chronograph, and watch carefully for excess pressure signs. :o
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Stand by for a rare Bunk rant
Or simply fill the case to the bullet (any weight) base with FFFg or FFg honest to god real black gun powder, or APP which also will work and go on your merry way.
Put chronographs on Craigslist and get back to basics.
Remember it don't matter how fast it goes it matters where it goes. If it don't go where you aim it that load ain't worth a plugged Mexican peso
This ain't rocket science people it is hit an 18" diameter disk a few yards away or a critter at any range because you have practiced... a lot. Practice and testing is the goal of accuracy and precision..
Precision and accuracy is what we all try to acquire remember it means shooting a tight group (precision) right where you are aiming (accuracy).
Rant completed
Bunk
Gee that felt good!
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??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Why, thank you Bunk for your heartfelt feelings
(which may not help Chance with smokeless load data for Vihtavouri powder)
but clearly hearkens back to the good old days of simplicity and charcoal. ;D
hope you feel better getting that off your chest LOL. :)
meanwhile we bring back the thread to data for strange foreign ( possibly Finnish?) powders.... :P
yhs
prof ( its all good) marvel
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Been loading 9.7 TS in my .30-06 1903 Springfield rebuild behind 165 and 193 gr lead. Hitting my 70 yd plate without too much trouble. Still working on the old sporters remilitarization. Eventually I’ll put it on some cardboard to see what the group really looks like.
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Why, thank you Bunk for your heartfelt feelings
(which may not help Chance with smokeless load data for Vihtavouri powder)
but clearly hearkens back to the good old days of simplicity and charcoal. ;D
hope you feel better getting that off your chest LOL. :)
meanwhile we bring back the thread to data for strange foreign ( possibly Finnish?) powders.... :P
yhs
prof ( its all good) marvel
Yup. Made in Finland, the land of heroes and gentlemen ;)
-Bulldog
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Bringing this back around...
I've yet to exhaust my stash of Trail Boss but I am getting close. Once I do I am going to try this Tin Star I have that has been sitting patiently in my cabinet since 2011.
Can anyone comment on whether this stuff is as dirty as Trail Boss? I've found TB in 45 Colt tends to leave plenty of soot residue in the rifle. Just wondering if Tin Star is any cleaner burning?
Thanks!
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I find it cleaner than Trail Boss; the residues seem to corrode the brass less also.
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When I had my one can of TB I was working on .30-40 rifle loads and didn’t notice how clean or dirty that it was. The Tin Star seems to be as clean as Clays. I just didn’t like the metering and how much you actually used to get 10 grs of the stuff. I’m using just about the same weight of TS which acts like normal reloading propellant.
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What's a .45 Colt load with Tin Star?
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I put 7.5 gr. In 44 40 for 1050 FPS in my marlin 24 inch barrel
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I am not sure about loading a powder i cannot pronounce or spell really.
Having said that if it is not called FFg or FFFg I have absolutely no interest in it.
It is just another one of those fad powder that will not last. Only the one true GUN POWDER has stood the test of time.
Seen any Hivel 2 lately?
Bunk
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Here's what RH VanDenburg had to say in Handloader 288...
38 spl - 150 gr. bullet - 5.0 gr. TS - 847 fps
44-40 Winchester - 200 gr. " - 7.5 gr. TS - 793 "
44 Russian - 250 gr. " - 4.5 gr. TS - 751 "
45 Colt - 250 gr. " - 8.3 gr. TS - 842 "
45-70 - 300 gr. " - 16.0 gr. TS -1295 "
400 gr. " - 15.0 gr. TS - 1119 "
When I first bought Tin Star, I guessed at a load for .45 Colt, and shot 7.3 gr. TS with 200 gr. RNFP bullets out of my 5 1/2" Pietta SAA's, giving me 640 fps. This was a very pleasant load to shoot, and shot to the revolver's sights at 25 yards.
I loaded 8.5 gr. and a 250 gr. RNFP in my Colt Lightning (Pedersoli) giving me 1033 fps and almost no blowback, and shoots to the sights at Cowboy distances.
I much prefer Tin Star to Trail Boss for shooting and reloading qualities. Shoots cleaner, too, IIRC.
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I was gifted with a lb. of "Tin Star" but haven't loaded any of it to date.
"Handloader" magazine recommended the following:
44-40 - 7.5 with 200 gr for 793 fps
.45 Colt - 8.3 with 250 gr for 842 fps
.38 Spl. - 5.0 with 150 gr for 847 fps
.44 Spl. - 6.3 gr with 250 for 768 fps
Looks to me like you could go a little either way just fine.
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If it don't go where you aim it that load ain't worth a plugged Mexican peso
Gee that felt good!
I can live with that
I agree but if you can hit what you are aiming at and do so at original velocities.........
(https://i.imgur.com/8svUSRs.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/745JxMK.jpg)
..........."Gee that felt good"
Seriously, I have been checking in on this powder from time to time to see if they ever published a load for the 44-40. Funny thing is that they mention the 44-40 directly as one of the cartridge it was used for. https://www.vihtavuori.com/powders/tis-star-powder/
(https://i.imgur.com/rwV1yh0.png)
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I am not sure about loading a powder i cannot pronounce or spell really.
Having said that if it is not called FFg or FFFg I have absolutely no interest in it.
It is just another one of those fad powder that will not last. Only the one true GUN POWDER has stood the test of time.
Seen any Hivel 2 lately?
Bunk
I have a can!
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Well, heavenly Carbuncles...
Notwithstanding Monsieur Austin's excellent results,
If Evil Roy promotes it, perhaps someone might ask him for his load data?
yhs
prof marvel
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Found this over on the Cast Boolets forum
In the 38 SPL the N32C Tin Star proved to be a very good powder. I tested with the 105 and 125 gr cast bullets with 3, 3.3, 3.6, 3.9, 4, 4.2, 4.5 and 4.8 gr of TS. Psi ran from 9,200 to 14,900. Velocity of selected loads from Uberti ER with 4 3/4" barrel were; 3.6 gr at 607 fps, 3.8 gr at 672 fps and 3.9 gr at 716 fps. The 3.9 gr load was recommended for CBA shooting.
The 125 gr cast was tested with 3.8, 4.0, 4.2, 4.5, 4.8, and 5.1 gr N32C Tin Star. Psi's ran from immeasurable (not enough psi to expand the .38 SPL case and put strain on the barrel) to 18,800. The 3.8 gr load ran 688 fps and the 4 gr load ran 745 fps out of the 4 3/4" barreled revolver. Accuracy was also excellent out of the Contender test barrel up through the 5.1 gr load which was at the SAAMI +P MAP for the cartridge.
The N32C was excellent in the 44 SPL under a 205 gr cast bullet. A selected CBA load of 4.6 did not have sufficient psi to measure. Velocity was 643 fps from the 5.9" revolver SAA barrel. Accuracy was 2.6" for the 10 test shots at 25 yards. Internal ballistics were excellent with an SD of 9 fps and an ES of 28 fps. A max load of 6 gr gave 14,500 psi also with excellent internal ballistics.
In the 44 Magnum under the 205 gr cast bullet 4.5 to 6.6 gr N32C was tested. No PSI measurement was recorded as even the 6.6 gr load did not give sufficient psi to expand the magnum cases and put a measurable strain on the Contender barrel. That generally requires 8,200 - 9,000 psi. The selected TS load of 6 gr with the 205 gr bullet ran 697 fps out of the 5.9" SAA barrel.
In the 45 ACP 5 gr of N32C was found to be excellent under a 230 gr cast bullet. The psi was 13,800 and velocity out of the 5" M1911 was 752 fps. Accuracy was excellent.
Larry Gibson
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Tin Star looks like SR4759 just lighter in colour.
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I've been experimenting with Tin Star for a few weeks now in .45 Schofield with 200 and 225 gr. bullets.
It's working nicely for me, particularly with the 225 gr. projectile. It isn't as bulky as Trail Boss but does fill the cases to the point that the dreaded double charge is not a worry.
Load data is scarce so start low, use a chronograph, and watch carefully for excess pressure signs. :o
It's not as bulky, but notice that it takes more powder weight to make the same charge as Trailboss, so the case fill is similar.
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I’m just getting into CAS so I picked up some of this and some trail boss to try , figuring if it was made for CAS it had to be pretty good.
I put a post out on the sass site and everyone there hates it . Quite a few seem to dislike trail boss also .
Only got a pound of each so I might as well try it myself .
Experimenting is half the fun
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Didn’t like the TB, went through a hopper full in no time during load development. The Tin Star is easier to meter, doesn’t bridge, it acts like regular powder. TS works for me, as you said experiment with them and see what you like.
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44-40
6.4gr Trail Boss
If I ever see any TS on the shelf at my local gun shop, I will try some.
25 yards and 265 yards
If I recall correctly, the white paper at 265 yards was a sheet from a desk calendar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcWcV3e-6Rs&t=31s
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Bryan --did you get a velocity on that 6.4gr of Trail Boss charge?
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I did, a blistering 974fps!!!!!!
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A while back I testes some Trail Boss with my PressureTrace strain gauge system.
6.4gr 945fps @ 7,224psi (maybe 8,000cup)
9.3gr 1,250fps @ 15,182psi (maybe 18,000cup) Magma design bullet sits on top of powder with no compression. Bullet seating depth .300"
Bulk Powders vs Bulky powders
It is my belief that Dupont manufactured the first smokeless powder used by Winchester in the 44-40. John Kort dissected several cartridges and found what he thought was Dupont No.2. He experimented with this powder, about April 2013, which he discovered to be as advertised by replicating such loads. Directly replacing black powder per volume, 17gr of Dupont No.2 was a "BULK" powder for the 44-40, produced 1,300fps but pressures are unknown to me. Looking at published loads in the 1930's, the 44-40 rifle loads that replicate 1,300fps show 10,000cup with certain powders like 2400 and Unique and possibly Sharpshooter and Lightning powders using the 200gr JSP. It has been reported that today's IMR-4227 has the same burn rate but yet 17gr (less volume) only produces 1,127fps @ 10,643psi (12,500cup). My tests using 19gr of IMR-4227 gave me 1,296fps with a 427098 @ 11,000psi (13,000cup) better replicating early smokeless powder loads in both velocity and chamber pressures. Better yet, 22gr with a Winchester JSP (.4255") gave 1,386fps @ 12,035psi (14,000cup).
The second powder I believe to have been used would be Laflin & Rand's Smokeless Sporting Rifle Powder...also using 17gr for the 44-40. Both Dupont and Laflin & Rand bulk powders appear to be "blonde" in color. This powder was only available for a year or less when taken over by Dupont.
What I believe to be the third powder used by Winchester was Laflin & Rand's "Sharpshooter" or at least Dupont's "Sharpshooter" by 1903. Both powders were perforated disc or very thinly sliced tube powder. Although a "bulky" powder, it was not a bulk powder but was also specifically advertised as a black powder replacement and noted as such on the powder cans "For Black Powder Rifles". Ironically 19gr of Dupont and Hercules Sharpshooter, by 1914, was noted as a High Velocity load. Sharpe's 1937 handloading manual notes 19.6gr of Sharpshooter produced 20,000cup. However, Sharpe also notes that 17.3gr of Sharpshooter (1937) with the JSP produced 1,305fps(normal factory velocity) @ 14,000cup (maybe 12,000psi) and 14gr producing 1,260fps but does not list pressures but would certainly be less than 14,000cup. It has been said the 2400 has a similar burn rate. If so, Lyman's 49th lists 18gr of 2400 with a Speer 200gr SJHP (#4425) @ 1,380fps and 14,600cup. 20gr of 2400 with a Speer 200gr SJHP #4425 @ 1,638fps and 19,000cup. My results differed as expected showing 1,300fps with only 16gr @ 9,000psi (maybe 11,000cup) and 1,672fps with 20gr of 2400 @ 15,618psi (maybe 18,000cup).
My testings with Trail Boss as a Bulky powder
Published 6.4gr max with an Acme Magma bullet produced 900-1000fps (945fps)@ 7,224psi with great plinking accuracy but also did well out to 200 yards but may not retain enough energy for harvesting game.
However, a caseload were the bullet sits on top of the powder like black powder, held 9.3gr. This load gave me 1,250fps but at a cost of 15,182psi which could be close to 18,000cup.
Thus the burn rate vs velocity doesn't match very well when comparing Trail Boss to early Dupont bulk powders or even later bulky powders used for high velocity loads.
In 1913, Dupont introduced SR80 (Sporting Rifle). It was a granular type powder. similar in appearance to Dupont No.2 smokeless powder but was faster burning and was not a "bulk" type powder. It's burning rate was in the same range as Sharpshooter. Sharpe's 1937 does not list chamber pressures for this powder.
“Sharpshooter” and "SR80" fueled millions of .44-40 smokeless factory cartridges up until at least the 1950’s (SR80 was discontinued in 1939) when ball powders began appearing on the scene. Winchester switched to a ball powder similar to the old W630 which also has a similar burning rate to 2400. Remington continued to use “Sharpshooter”. I recently dissected some Winchester Super X cartridges and discovered the same type ball powder with a 12.8gr charge. Winchester last offered this load in 1978, then in 1979 Winchester began using a disc shaped pistol powder of which I weighed at 8gr. This is when the advertised velocity dropped from 1,310fps down to 1,190fps.
My "go-to" powders that seem to equally replicate velocity and pressures and most importantly accuracy are;
1. 25.8gr of Reloader 7 with a 220gr lead bullet @ 1,361pfs and 12,000psi (est. 14,000cup). Factory standard velocity loads. (1894-1978)
2. 24gr of IMR-4227 with a 200gr JSP @ 1,590fps and 18,000psi (est. 22,000cup). Factory standard High Velocity loads. (1903-1938)
These are the only two powders that give the greatest accuracy, retain energy (out to 200 yards and greater) and produce the least pressures in my tests.
Overview
Dupont No.2 vs IMR-4227
17gr of Dupont No.2 "BULK" powder produced 1,300fps but pressures are unknown
17gr of IMR-4227 (less volume) produces 1,127fps @ 10,643psi (12,500cup)
22gr of IMR-4227 with a Winchester JSP (.4255") gave 1,386fps @ 12,035psi (14,000cup)
No Data
17gr of Laflin & Rand's Smokeless Sporting Rifle Powder - no data found
Sharpshooter vs 2400
14gr of Sharpshooter (1937) with a 200gr JSP produced 1,260fps no pressures listed but would certainly be less than 14,000cup
17.3gr of Sharpshooter (1937) with the JSP produced 1,305fps(normal factory velocity) @ 14,000cup (maybe 12,000psi)
19gr of Dupont and Hercules Sharpshooter (1903-1914) was noted as a High Velocity load @ 20,000cup.
16gr of 2400 with a Speer 200gr SJHP #4425 @ 1,300fp @ 9,000psi (maybe 11,000cup)
18gr of 2400, according to Lyman 49th, with a Speer 200gr SJHP (#4425) @ 1,380fps and 14,600cup
20gr of 2400 with a Speer 200gr JSHP #4425 @ 1,672fps @ 15,618psi (maybe 18,000cup).