Author Topic: More Military Trivia  (Read 8269 times)

Offline Gripmaker

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More Military Trivia
« on: September 13, 2006, 06:37:49 PM »
Can anyone out there tell me how many military positions having a rank are actually held by civilians? I am not referring to Sec. of Army, Navy, etc. or Sec. of Defense as these are civilian positions. At present, I can only think of 2 but there may be more.

Offline Old Top

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2006, 12:33:19 AM »
Gripmaker,

Commander in Chief (President) comes to mind but I do not beleive that is what you are looking for.  The other is the Surgon General, could that be one that you are thinking of?

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Offline Frenchie

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2006, 06:54:14 AM »
The Surgeon General is one, I think; he's the head of the US Public Health Service and they have uniforms similar to those of Navy officers.
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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #3 on: Today at 06:16:44 PM »

Offline Gripmaker

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2006, 07:44:49 AM »
Top, Frenchie,
                     You are both correct so far. I can think of another but there may also be a third (or more). Does the US still have a "Solicitor General" with the GAO?

Offline Books OToole

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2006, 11:08:51 AM »
What brand, caliber, barrel length, etc. sidearm did Col. Leonard Wood carry in Cuba?

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Offline Frenchie

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2006, 08:09:11 PM »
Grip, Books, got me, I'm stumped and can't find anything on the 'Net.

Here's one: A lieutenant is subordinate to a major, but a major general is subordinate to a lieutenant general. Why?
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Offline St. George

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2006, 08:41:48 PM »
 Smith & Wesson - .44 Double Action - First Model - .44 Russian - s/n - 475XX range...

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Offline Sam Perfye

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2006, 08:42:55 PM »
Frenchie, A major general is subordinate to a lt.-general because the original title was sergent-major general. Can't remember when the change took place, heck I can't even remember why that little tidbit stuck and so much other info didn't. Seems to me this was a British thing but I'm not sure. See ya at the muster. Al
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Offline Gripmaker

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2006, 08:46:06 PM »
Frenchie,  Because the Lt. General has one more star (that is an example of military intelligence).
               Booke's had me stumped too until I decided to just BS my way through and see what
                he says.

Hey Bookes,  How about a John Wayne special, Colt, 45 cal. 7 1/2" barrel. By the way, who WAS
                    Gen. Leonard Wood?

Offline Gripmaker

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2006, 08:49:35 PM »
OK Guys, I surrender.  I bow to your superior research capabilities and/or memory. I guess what makes this so much fun is that if you allow patience to have her turn, someone will come up with the correct answer and education marches on.

Offline Dr. Bob

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2006, 02:42:48 AM »
Additional General Information

From the War of 1812 to the start of the ACW, the highest rank in the Army was Maj. General.  Winfield Scott was a MG from the War of 1812 through 1863.  Yep, 50 years!  During the ACW two ranks were added above MG, Leiut. General and General.  Maybe that since a General [4 Star] was in over all command, they thought the next lower woud be his Lt. General and there were already the ranks of Major & Brigadier General.  Suppose that if could have just as easily been Colone General as used in some European armies.

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Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2006, 09:51:34 AM »
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Offline Frenchie

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2006, 10:08:17 AM »
Shalako's got it. From Wikipedia:

History
In the 16th century, the sergeant major was a general officer. He commanded an army's infantry and ranked about third in the army's command structure; he also acted as a sort of chief of staff to the army's commander.

In the 17th century, sergeant majors appeared in individual regiments. These were field officers, third in command of their regiments (after their colonels and lieutenant colonels), with a role similar to the older, army-level sergeant majors (although obviously on a smaller scale). The older position became known as sergeant major general to distinguish it. Over time, the sergeant was dropped from both titles, giving rise to the modern ranks of major and major general.

The full title of sergeant major fell out of use until the latter part of the 18th century, when it began to be applied to the senior non-commissioned officer of an infantry battalion or cavalry regiment.

It is about this time that the U.S. and British histories of the title diverge, with the American Revolutionary War.


United States
The first official U.S. use of the term was in 1776, when a sergeant major was appointed to the headquarters of each infantry battalion of the Continental Army. In 1920, with the standardisation of the army's enlisted pay grades, it ceased to be a title of rank or grade. However, it survived as the job title of the senior NCO of a battalion, and was re-introduced as a rank in 1958 when Congress authorized the E-8 and E-9 pay grades. The appointment of Sergeant Major of the Army was created in 1966. Command Sergeant Major got separate insignia in 1968.

The U.S. Marine Corps got its first sergeant major in 1801. This was originally a solitary post, similar to the modern Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, but by 1899 there were five of them. The title was abolished in 1946 but re-introduced as a rank in 1954; the post of Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps was established in 1957.


United Kingdom
The British use of the term was formalised in 1797, when the sergeant major was added to the battalion or regimental staff. When chevrons were introduced as badges of rank, he wore four, later under a crown.

In 1813, cavalry regiments introduced the Troop Sergeant Major to replace the Quartermaster as the senior NCO of a troop; this required the existing position to be explicitly redesignated the Regimental Sergeant Major. Later, the rise of the squadron as the principal sub-regimental unit saw the corresponding introduction of the Squadron Sergeant Major (SSM). The infantry, however, hung on to the undifferentiated, one-per-battalion sergeant major until the eve of the First World War, when the introduction of the Company Sergeant Major forced them to adopt the RSM title as well. (As an infantry regiment could be, and usually was, made up of a number of battalions, one would logically expect the new title to be Battalion Sergeant Major rather than Regimental Sergeant Major: perhaps the infantry felt this would imply a lower status than their cavalry equivalents.)

In 1881, the cavalry RSM and infantry Sergeant Major were among a number of senior non-commissioned positions that were confirmed with warrants, making them warrant officers. This was extended and rationalised in 1915, with the introduction of the new ranks of Warrant Officer Class I (WOI) and Warrant Officer Class II (WOII). RSM became an appointment of the former, CSM and SSM of the latter.
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Offline Books OToole

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2006, 10:23:25 AM »
I knew from The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wessons by Supica and Nahas that General Leonard Wood ordered one.

I was hoping that I could find evidence that he had it in Cuba.  Alas, it doen't look like that was the case.

Col. Roosevelt had a New Model 3, according to the same source.

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Offline Grapeshot

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2006, 11:47:34 AM »
Grip, Books, got me, I'm stumped and can't find anything on the 'Net.

Here's one: A lieutenant is subordinate to a major, but a major general is subordinate to a lieutenant general. Why?

IN THE OLD DAYS OF RANKING, General ranks went something like this:

Brigadeer
Major General
Lieutenant Colonel General
General

This proved to be rather confusing so the "Colonel part was dropped and what was left was Lieutenant General with the meaning that he was subordinate to a General.
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Offline Grapeshot

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2006, 11:51:55 AM »
who WAS
                    Gen. Leonard Wood?

Former US Army Surgeon who was given command of the First US Volunteer Cavalry during the Span/Am war.  Was promoted to General prior to the Assault on Kettle Hill and passed command of the "Rough Riders" to Colonel Teddy Roosevelt. 

Fort Lenard Wood, Kansas was named after him.
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Offline Books OToole

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2006, 11:58:13 AM »
For the record,  Col. Roosevelt loathed the nick name Teddy.  (and wasn't fond of T.R. either)

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Offline Dr. Bob

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2006, 12:08:41 PM »
Ft Leonard Wood is located in east central Missouri near the town of Waynesville.  The only rifle range I have ever been on where there was sand blowing in my face while it was raining!  One March we had snow flakes the size of half dollars and you couldn;t see the targets from the 200 yard line.  Only lasted 15 min.or so, but it was certainly quite an experience.  Many fond memories from my youth as a high power rifle shooter.
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Offline Trailrider

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2006, 12:30:13 PM »
IN THE OLD DAYS OF RANKING, General ranks went something like this:

Brigadeer
Major General
Lieutenant Colonel General
General

This proved to be rather confusing so the "Colonel part was dropped and what was left was Lieutenant General with the meaning that he was subordinate to a General.

Gentlemen:

I believe there is another possible "heritage" for the rank of "Lieuntenant General"...  Back in the days of the Roman empire, the Latin word "Imporator" was translated (according to my late Latin teacher...who was a re-incarnation of Julius Ceaser) as either Emperor or General, probably due to Julius Ceasar having been both.  The word "legatus" was translated as "lieutenant".  But the term did NOT indicate a rank corresponding to our O-1 & O-2, a low-ranking officer, but rather to the second-in-command of an army.  (Note: "lieutenant" also comes from French??? for "in lieu or instead of the "tenant" or holder of command.)  The book "Lee's Lieutenants" refers to generals like Stonewall Jackson, James Longstreet, etc., not to junior grade officers.

I suppose that since the rank of Maj. General already existed, the U.S. Army felt it inappropriate to change the designations for the (now) O-8 paygrade, and so put the rank of general-in-chief at "General" (4 stars), and his next-in-command at his Lieutenant General.

Can't swear to this, but it's also a probable consideration in how the top rank structures came about.

Now can you Navy types give us the low-down on how the business of Commador and Rear Admiral (lower half) and RA (upper half), but with the modern practice of both RA ranks wearing 2 stars (which, I understand, does not please BG's of the Army, AF and Marines)!  ;)
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Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: More Military Trivia
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2006, 01:20:13 PM »
My father went to basic at Fort Leonard Wood in the late 50's.

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