Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: Doug.38PR on July 30, 2014, 01:18:23 AM
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Would that have really made a difference as is so often claimed?
The Trapdoor .45-70's advantage of shooting beyond the range of the Indian's bow and arrow and lever action rifles.
But then we are still talking about 4000 Souix and Cheyenne braves against 200 something odd American troopers.
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They still (probably) have had their butts kicked, but not as bad. I think the issue was is they 7th were out maneuvered and out numbered by the Sioux and Cheyenne.
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Go to the 'Spencer Shooting Society' forum, and look this one up.
Topic: Thoughts on Spencers back in 1868...56-50 vs 50-70 (Read 5268 times)
Scouts Out!
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Close air support might have saved Custer's backside.
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If you read the threads in SSS, you'll find the Army's rationale for using a hard-hitting single-shot.
That said, nothing can beat thorough training, and in order to do that, you have to be able to back it up with funding for ammunition, amongst other things - something that the frontier Army just didn't have.
Custer's Seventh - like every other Frontier Army outfit - was filled with newly-arrived immigrants and men trying to get to the gold fields while eating Army rations.
They weren't elite, well-trained, highly-motivated, agile, mobile, and hostile troopers by any stretch of the imagination.
Custer was conventional Cavalry combat-experienced, and an experienced leader of men - ask the Michigan Wolverines - but he was also hungry for glory and a chance to redeem himself - and he - like everyone else - seriously underestimated his foe's capabilities.
Never before - and never since - would American troops encounter the number of Indians in one place and cocked, locked and ready to rock - and they reminded the Army that there were still lessons to be learned on the modern battlefield - lessons we would take to heart.
It would take Crook's implacable Infantry to bring the Indian Wars to a close - but there was no way John Ford could add 'romance' to hard-campaigning dogfaces who pursued in winter, so that part of the truth is always left to the dust of history.
Scouts Out!
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Don't loose sight of Crooks buttkickin a few days earlier on the Rosebud, by the same bunch that took Custer out. Problem with that one is while it was nearly as big of a castastrophy as the mess on the the Greasy Grass, Crook didn't leave behind a grieving widow.
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Crook had less than a dozen casualties, fought a tactical draw, and withdrew to resupply. It was certainly not a triumph, nor was it a catastrophe.
As to the Spencers, the Army wanted a weapon that would reliably penetrate the frontal muscle mass of a Horse. You kill the horse, you stop a mounted enemy. Numbers, tactics, lack of training, lack of experience, and failure to appreciate the tactical capabilities of the enemy,(as opposed to the tactical history) doomed half of the 7th. The other half, with the same weapons, dug in on high ground and survived.
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In the Civil War Custer proved himself as a capable cavalry commander. At the Little Big Horn he picked the wrong time to have a bad day.
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Crook had less than a dozen casualties, fought a tactical draw, and withdrew to resupply. It was certainly not a triumph, nor was it a catastrophe. (snip)
I can't find my references for the number of casualties suffered by Crook's command right now, but IIRC it was more than a dozen. Capt. Guy V. Henry was shot in the face, ultimately surviving with the loss of sight in one eye. Trumpeter Snow was shot through both wrists, probably maimed for life (no record of his subsequent recovery), to name just two. Meinhold's Co. B, 3rd Cav was "badly cut up". Regardless, Crook's command reportedly expended over 50,000 rounds of ammunition! In the sense that Crook's immediate command was nowhere near whiped out, it wasn't a catastrophe. Crook claimed he won the battle since he "held the field" (the Indians, having fought enough, figured it was time for a break and...broke off). But in the strategic sense, the Battle of the Rosebud was an out-and-out disaster. Why? Because the original concept of the Big Horn & Yellowstone Expedition of 1876 was for Terry & Gibbon to act as the anvil, while Crook dropped the hammer on the hostiles. Had Crook not "dropped back to resuplly" (he messaged for Wesley Merritt and the 5th Cav, with Buffalo Bill as chief scout, to come up, and then waited around fisheing and hunting at Big and Little Goose Creek...where Sheridan, WY, is today). That delay and the lack of communications effectively resulted in the LBH debacle! In point of fact, what the BH&Y Expedition needed to success was camm between Terry/Gibbon/Custer and Crook, plus tacair cover and arty support. (Ironically, Custer was the first airborne observer during the CW!) But then there's no use wishing for technology that's 80 years in the future.
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Went and backchecked, approx. 20 killed, 40 wounded. Not a catastrophe, but a tactical standoff resulting in a local strategic victory when combined with Greasy Grass. (LBH)
The whole thing was a tactical planning debacle, all based on the Sioux and Cheyenne dispersing on contact. When they concentrated instead, the whole thing had to, and did, fall apart.
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If Custer would have slowed down a bit and kept his ego in check, he would have done better to take the three Gatling Guns that were offered to him along with the rest of the troops. In the end, it may have not changed the outcome, but it would have been a more even match. JMHO.
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Glad this thread got moved, maybe my post wont get deleted here
seems that my dislike of custer is not tolorated in the historical society section :P
Being part Lacota Sioux I hate custer with a passion and glad my ancestors wiped his murderous rear end off the planet!
There are several other murderous blue bellies that I can rant about but this is a custer thread.
personally i dont think GAC stood much of a chance from any combat stand point because of the fact he was grossly out manned
I think he knew exactly what he was walking his men into, I also believe his big ego is what got him and his men killed not bad inteligence/ recon or the lack of inadequate weaponry theory.
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I can certainly understand your feels about Custer. Yes, he had a huge ego, was pretty well fearless, which translated into a disregard for his men. A big ego has and can affect judgement and analysis of intel, lulling you into a false sense of security, which can lead to tactical mistakes. I recall another military genius, who let his ego to discount reports of the enemy's backers coming at his troops in overwhelming numbers. Were it not for close air support, covering the retreat of that general's troops, as well as the bravery and professionalism of these troops, the disaster would have made Custer a mere footnote in history. And the latterday general was a military genius and planned and ordered a number of campaigns. Any idea to whom I refer? An old soldier whose ego was so great, he ignored the order of his commander, and ultimately just...faded away! ::)
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I can certainly understand your feels about Custer. Yes, he had a huge ego, was pretty well fearless, which translated into a disregard for his men. A big ego has and can affect judgement and analysis of intel, lulling you into a false sense of security, which can lead to tactical mistakes. I recall another military genius, who let his ego to discount reports of the enemy's backers coming at his troops in overwhelming numbers. Were it not for close air support, covering the retreat of that general's troops, as well as the bravery and professionalism of these troops, the disaster would have made Custer a mere footnote in history. And the latterday general was a military genius and planned and ordered a number of campaigns. Any idea to whom I refer? An old soldier whose ego was so great, he ignored the order of his commander, and ultimately just...faded away! ::)
I would have to guess either Patton or MacArthur
Heres some pretty good reading concerning the treatment of the North American nativves by the government who brought us the US Constitution ::)
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I just read this string and agree pretty well with all the comments including st8lineleathersmith.....I understand completely friend your hatred......
I realized from reading y'alls comments however, the knotheads who run the US government haven't changed their attitudes too much since then.
I believe they still think intimidation with arms will quell the crowds.
The Army back then expected the Indian nations gathered together to bolt and run when up against the full firepower and might of the US Army and this didn't happen......the only person who in my estimation who got his victory fairly was Buffalo Bill in his duel with Yellow Hand, two months after Custer and his troops were killed. Each on horseback and armed with repeater rifles.
Today the US gov. still underestimates folks thinking they will run when confronted with armed gov. agents....jack boots, etc.......example: Bundy Ranch and currently Ferguson MO.
Black uniforms make people mad, not afraid (unless they are alone) Military weapons don't scare anyone (again unless they are alone) Custor found this out, Crook found this out, BLM found this out as did the local over armed police in MO.
This'll probably get deleted but I needed to vent..............
Griswold
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I can certainly understand your feels about Custer. Yes, he had a huge ego, was pretty well fearless, which translated into a disregard for his men. A big ego has and can affect judgement and analysis of intel, lulling you into a false sense of security, which can lead to tactical mistakes. I recall another military genius, who let his ego to discount reports of the enemy's backers coming at his troops in overwhelming numbers. Were it not for close air support, covering the retreat of that general's troops, as well as the bravery and professionalism of these troops, the disaster would have made Custer a mere footnote in history. And the latterday general was a military genius and planned and ordered a number of campaigns. Any idea to whom I refer? An old soldier whose ego was so great, he ignored the order of his commander, and ultimately just...faded away! ::)
Douglas McArthur ignored intelligence reports and got the 8th Army (in particular the 2nd Infantry division) chewed up along the Chongchon river. Only the fact that their commander essentially dis-obeyed orders and concentrated his command (as well as the fighting quality of the troops) allowed the Marines to excape relatively intact from the Chosin reservoir. Korea: November/December 1950.
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Two or three A-10 Warthogs loitering overhead might have made the fight unnecessary. But if they had to be called in for support after the fight started Custer still gets a hair cut. Too many indians, too close and no effective cover.
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Obviously some serious historians have weighed in already. James Donovan's "A Terrible Glory, Custer and the Little Big Horn the Last Great Battle of the American West" is a very comprehensive read with over 90 pages of endnotes, some a paragraph or more in length. It delves into Custer the man and a lot of inferences as to what shaped his decision making at the Little Big Horn based on previous experience against the plains Indians. It brings the reader along so by the time the LBH battle is chronicled, the reader is not surprised by Custer’s decisions.
One thing I did not know was the abysmal state of combat readiness of the 7th immediately prior to the campaign. Custer spent about two months or more politicking back east and left the train up for the campaign in Reno's hands. Reno failed miserably in that regard. A simple example, logistics; the pack mules that among other things were carrying the Gatling guns and upwards of 25,000 rounds of assorted ammunition were not trained to carry the loads and proved to be nearly unmanageable once on the trail. This was above and beyond the questionable quality of the individual troopers.
The 73 Winchester was chambered in .44-40 – considered formidable at the time but would it have been powerful enough to knock down a horse if not through the heart or lungs (ref to a prior post about the Army’s rationale in part for the big .45-70 cartridges)?
Nice to muse about the difference true repeating rifles might have made. My take after reading Terrible Glory twice was that the sheer size of the force that hit Custer and the 200 plus under his direct command on the ridge was simply too much.
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The 73 Winchester was chambered in .44-40 – considered formidable at the time but would it have been powerful enough to knock down a horse if not through the heart or lungs (ref to a prior post about the Army’s rationale in part for the big .45-70 cartridges)?
Nice to muse about the difference true repeating rifles might have made. My take after reading Terrible Glory twice was that the sheer size of the force that hit Custer and the 200 plus under his direct command on the ridge was simply too much.
Just my own thoughts about the 1873 Winchester
from my understanding this was what many of the native tribes who did actually have a fire arm were equipped with and not really a good accurate number of how many is known to have been used in the battle.
there is the advantage of the .44-40 having a higher cartridge capacity and a shorter stroke of the action than the .45-70 govt therefore the tribal warriors could get off more well placed shots before needing to reload and due to the difference in cartridge size more .44-40 cartridges could be carried easier.
I understand the tactical standpoint of knocking down the horse from the government troops but I seriously doubt many of the Native Americans were aiming at the horses seeing the horses were held in much higher esteem than the blue coats riding them
however I think for the most Custer troops perished from arrow's Spears, knives and war clubs not 1873 Winchesters
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just my thoughts
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Catching up on an old thread, but I believe the key the battle from G. Custer was a lack of logistical support.
There was a reason he sent the urgent request to "Bring Packs"...even mentioned it twice in his dispatch.
A faster-firing gun would have used the ammunition supply faster, but due to the lighter weight of ammunition for the repeaters more cartridges could have been brought to the fight by each soldier....Assuming the command would issue a higher number of rounds per man.
Interesting (to me) these same discussions take place today regarding current military weaponry.
Slim
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If Custer had only been armed with repeaters........
Since Custer separated from his pack train, his unit would have faced the same overwhelming force with possibly twice the rifle ammo they had for their trapdoors. It's not really clear what amount of ammo they would have been carrying for Winchesters or Spencers, but they weren't exactly overloaded with 45LC. It's really not clear what the Army would have decided was an appropriate load for the trooper's horse. And the ammo in the pack train Custer chose to leave behind, out of reach, didn't play a part at the time no matter what caliber.
Repeaters and Schofields would have probably changed the outcome. There probably would have been a higher loss on the Indian's side. Since they fairly quickly over ran Custer's 1/3 of his forces, the loss probably would not have been much higher on the Indian's side, but the same 100% of Custer's party.
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Less than 200 facing thousand would be mentally debilitating beyond our grasp. What I had in my hand would not help
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As long as we are playing "what-if-s" I wonder if anyone has thoughts on the recent mobility
tactics of ISIS in Syria and Iraq. Call me "crazy" but the first thing I thought of were the Commanche
tactics across Texas and the Moro fantics in the Phillipines. Patton, Guderian and Rommel all proved
the effectiveness of mobile warfare. I also think that Crook and MacKenzie proved the worth of doggedly
following the enemy into his strongholds.
If you're wondering where this is all coming from, I was one of those folks listening to the news the other day
when the Secy of Defense stated that Iraqi-s didn't have the will to fight and like somebody mentioned before
the 7th Cav folks were not battle-hardened ACW vets. I'm wondering if there are things our modern military
can apply from the Indian Wars. Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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If Custer had only been armed with repeaters........
Since Custer separated from his pack train, his unit would have faced the same overwhelming force with possibly twice the rifle ammo they had for their trapdoors. It's not really clear what amount of ammo they would have been carrying for Winchesters or Spencers, but they weren't exactly overloaded with 45LC. It's really not clear what the Army would have decided was an appropriate load for the trooper's horse. And the ammo in the pack train Custer chose to leave behind, out of reach, didn't play a part at the time no matter what caliber.
Repeaters and Schofields would have probably changed the outcome. There probably would have been a higher loss on the Indian's side. Since they fairly quickly over ran Custer's 1/3 of his forces, the loss probably would not have been much higher on the Indian's side, but the same 100% of Custer's party.
Several years ago I read an article about research at the Little Big Horn. The scientists were trying to determine just what weapons were used by the Indians and the 7th Cav during that battle in June of 1876. Using metal detection equipment it took several months of surveys to complete their effort.
The majority of shell casings were .44 Henry with some .44 WCF in the perimeter outside where the troopers finally stood their ground .......majority quantities found of the US 7th Cav positions were .45-70 with some 44 WCF, probably from the Pawnee scouts. Interestingly enough, no .45 Colt or Schofield shell casing were discovered.....which means either the troops never got to shoot their pistols or never had the opportunity to reload.
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Well, Reno used his head, got into good ground, and wasn't wiped out and he had the same firearms. I think Custer underestimated his enemy. Got strung out and chopped to bits. Probably would have been the same with the better firepower.
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Firepower can certainly make a difference...up to a point. Defensive positions make all the difference when being attacked by a greatly numerically superior force. In the Beecher Island battle, Sandy Forsyth's 50 scouts were probably outnumbered 4-to-1. A number of his scouts had been killed or wounded, including the major, himself, as well as his second-in-command, 1LT Fred. Beecher, who was morally wounded. The Cheyenne were primarily mounted, and should have been able to roll over the scouts. But the scouts were dug in on the sandbar (island) in the mittle of the shallow creek, and were armed with Spencer Repeating Rifles (termed carbines, but they may have been armed with Spencer rifles from 3rd Infantry stores), plus a few Trapdoor Springfields (.50-70), and at least one Henry Repeating Rifle belonging to Fred Beecher. The consolidated position plus firepower made the difference. It made the difference in the case of Reno's and Benteen's troop, although firepower, per se, was less of a factor than the position. There are other examples, but I won't take the bandwidth.
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Training and discipline - coupled with experienced leadership on the ground make the difference as well.
Custer's troopers had none of that, and when everything suddenly exploded all around them, they were overwhelmed, as inexperienced soldiers often are.
Since this is one of those 'What If' threads - they could 'all' have had Henrys, and they would still have fallen.
But think on this:
What if they'd been Custer's Civil War Cavalry command - the Michigan Wolverines?
Those boys were well-disciplined, battle-tested and battle-hardened - experienced killers with good Non-Coms and Company-Grades, and were under the command of a man they trusted.
Given like numbers, they'd have given enough of an accounting of themselves that the battle would have just been another of the many battles comprising the Indian Wars.
Scouts Out!
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I think the other thing to remember is they under estermated the numbers of indians they would in counter and the wrong mental attitude to plan properly.
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Bluntly, they weren't well-trained and they were exhausted - with tired horses.
Suddenly encountering all those hostiles primed and ready just erased all sense of discipline and unit cohesiveness in the face of abject fear, and nothing had previously prepared them for that.
Scouts Out!
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A combination of latest survey of the battlefield as well as a review of the testimony of
Native American accounts seems to suggest that rather than a battle, Little Big Horn
was a rapid series of skirmishes over a rather wide area leading up to the final encounter.
As mentioned earlier, had the troops been battle-tested and rested, a secure and well-defined
perimeter would have been established with defined fields of fire and it may have been enough to give
the attacking forces pause. Throw in the technology and it may well have tipped the balance...maybe.
As it is, examination of remains of troopers suggests a prevalence of disease, arthritis and infection
not previously in evidence. Add to this the heat, poor nutrition and lack of adequate rest for man and beast
and I think the outcome was unavoidable. Just sayin...
BTW: As I understand it, there may have been one fella who survived the battle. Seems a fella was shot and his horse bolted.
In telling his tale years later there was some evidence to substantiate his testimony. Anyone else ever heard of this?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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I can't remember the details but I heard that story. On Custer's movements, I thought he was taking the fight to the NDNs and they couldn't believe it because of their numeral superiority.
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Bruce--- the man that may have survived the LBH is Frank Finkel. There is a very interesting book on his
Possible escape and also articles you can google up. There is no absolute proof but I personally believe
The story. There are pros and cons that are interesting to weigh.
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But no actual facts or scholarship to back it up.
Oh, well...
Why let facts get in the way?
Scouts Out!
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Bruce--- the man that may have survived the LBH is Frank Finkel. There is a very interesting book on his
Possible escape and also articles you can google up. There is no absolute proof but I personally believe
The story. There are pros and cons that are interesting to weigh.
Thanks, Tree:
I think I ran into a TV program during a channel-check. I'm going to GOOGLE for a bit today.
IIRC there was some truth to the trail he described getting away from the battle, and some abandoned
items were found approximately where he might have left them. OTOH, there was also some talk about his having been grazed
and lighting-out before the battle was actually joined. IDK.....just musing now..... Thanks again.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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The book is " Custer Survivor" by John Koster. It is on Amazon.com. If your local library does not have it
They can get it thru inter library loan. It's a fun read.
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Off hand, given the soldiers were hacked apart and riddled with hundreds of arrows, etc.- it doesn't seem possible anyone escaped.
The Fetterman Massacre, I think (not sure) that the troops got strung out pursuing what they thought was a handful of NDNs and then the jaws of the trap were sprung. Custer has to bear some responsibility for how everyone was deployed.
If Custer had better arms, plenty of ammunition, and had taken up a good defensive position- could he have survived? Well, since Reno did, it may well have been possible.
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A Semi uninformed Personal Opinion:
I think The "Generals Involved" were still Fighting the Previous War, rather than fighting the Present War, using Current Intelligence/Information available at the time Before the 'campaign' was started.
Question 1: How many Cartridges were issued to individual Troopers for Carry on his Person?
Question 2: What was the Total Cartridge number Issued per Trooper, including both the Personal load and the Pack train Load?
I am GUESSING, but It seems GAC figured resupply was only scant hours away when in fact it was much Further in time from the point of his need in Battle.
It appears he was fighting an American Civil war Campaign, where Resupply was close at hand normally, rather than an Indian wars Campaign, where Resupply was further away in time and distance.
If my Understanding iis Faulty, please correct me.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
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Most of the soldiers had most of their ammo in their saddle bags. Subsequently, when the horses got ran off by the Indians, they were stuck with what they had on their person, which wasn't a whole lot. Basically, they ran out of ammo.
Re: Gatling guns. They wouldn't of helped Custer at all. Hard to maneuver in that type of terrain with the Indians being scattered and undulating ground. Reno may have had a better opportunity with the Gatling guns when he was in the valley, as it was level ground and the Indian village to his front
The view from my saddle
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Training and discipline - coupled with experienced leadership on the ground make the difference..
Custer's scared, green troopers had none of that, and when everything suddenly exploded all around them, they were overwhelmed, as inexperienced soldiers often are.
Since this is one of those 'What If' threads that everyone's so fond of - they could 'all' have had Henrys, Spencers, Winchesters and a Gatling or three, and they would still have fallen, because 'terror' would have caused them to give up their positions and seek shelter and safety with the larger force.
Nowhere before or since would the Frontier Army encounter the number of Indians all in one place and ready to dance, but dance they did at the Greasy Grass, and Custer's men weren't ready for that, by a long shot.
But think on this:
What if they'd been Custer's Civil War Cavalry command - the Michigan Wolverines?
Those boys were well-disciplined, battle-tested and battle-hardened - experienced killers with good Non-Coms and Company-Grades, and were under the command of a man they trusted.
Those were men that knew their trade of killing - led by the men who'd trained them.
Given like numbers, they'd have given enough of an accounting of themselves that the battle would have just been another of the many battles comprising the Indian Wars.
Taking a look at actual forensic evidence as gathered during the archaeological finds, you'll see:
Forehand & Wadsworth .32 Rimfire
Colt .36
Colt .38
Sharps .40 -.45 and .50
Ethan Allen or Forehand & Wadsworth .42
S&W American .44
Evans Old model .44
Henry .44
200-gr .44
Miscellaneous and Unknown .40
Winchester .44-40
Colt and S&W .45
Springfield .45-55
.45 Unidentified
Spencer
Unidentified .50 rimfire
Springfield .50-70
Maynard
Miscellaneous and Unidentified .50
Starr
Enfield
Round Ball - .44, .45, .50
Shot
No identifiable Webley rounds were found.
The above are attributal to all of the sites investigated.
More on this is found in 'Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Big Horn' - by Scott, Fox, Connor and Harmon.
It's the record of the digs conducted across the battlefield after the grass fires of August 1983 stripped off all of the thatch and underbrush of the site - and the follow-on 1984-85 dgging season that completely covered the area.
This is the print version of what you've seen on 'The History Channel', and it goes into great depth, as archaeological work does - yet it's compelling...
Scouts Out!
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(snip for bandwidth)
Question: How many Cartridges were issued to individual Troopers for Carry on his Person?
Question: What was the Total Cartridge number Issued per Trooper, including both the Personal load and the Pack train Load?I am GUESSING, but It seems GAC figured resupply was only scant hours away when in fact it was much Further in time from the point of his need in Battle.
It appears he was fighting an American Civil war Campaign, where Resupply was close at hand normally, rather than an Indian wars Campaign, where Resupply was further away in time and distance.
If my Understanding iis Faulty, please correct me.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
Standard issue was usually 60-100 rounds of .45--55 carbine or .45-70 rifle rounds. BUT...depending on how the trooper was packing his ammo, he was probably wearing no more than 40 rounds in a saddler-made prairie belt, or 20 rounds in a single Dyer pouch and the rest in his saddle bags. (The M1876 canvas belts had around 52 loops. He would have been issued 24 rounds of .45 Colt pistol ammo, some probably carried in a converted CW pistol cap pouch, 5 or 6 rounds in the revolver (depending on how safety conscious his NCO or company commander was).
According to an Indian who participated in the battle, it took "no more time than a hungry man to eat his lunch!" for the Indians to overwhelm Custer's immediate command. I seriously doubt Custer's troops either ran out of ammo or had their carbines jam from the heat and fouling produced by rapid fire. They didn't live that long! It is estimated (based on the archeological dig) that around 243 INdians had firearms of any kind...more than Custer had men in his battalion. But the major factor in thei anihilation was that the troops were spread out (except for the Last Stand group), and were facing a deadly assault from rapid-fire, high trajectory anti-personnel weapons...arrows!
BTW, the Indians weren't ready and waiting for Custer. Most had been participating in a Sun Dance ritual the night before, and were asleep. They just reacted faster to Reno's attack, and then circled around to engage Custer once Reno's forces had been "contained". Were it not for having twice the men, and some luck, Crook might have faced the same fate at the Rosebud, a week earlier.
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I know this is an old forum, but if you read "Black Elk Speaks"; He and his cousin used "six shooters", while his brother used a shotgun. so they could've been old percussion cap ones, later he said when he was in canada. both him and his dad had repeaters.
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Firepower does not compensate for poor planning, poor intelligence gathering (one of the primary roles of Cavalry) and poor execution. Custer had a battery of Gatling guns that he failed to deploy.
Little Big Horn ought not to be celebrated but taught in military schools as an example of how not to engage a highly mobile enemy. Blaming the weapons of his soldiers dishonours their memory.
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Ok, who remembers the twilight zone episode with the national guard tank and crew go back in time? Then came upon the battle. the tank was abandoned and the men joined the battle with m1 carbines and 1911's. Did not change the out come, just added to the kia's.
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Speculating the outcome of this particular cluster f>>>, is actually a waste of good speculation. Here's a factoid. It takes hundreds of rounds fired to get a casualty. Custers troops weren't creating a dead hostile every time a rigger was pulled. There was insufficient ammunition for a sustained fight. Combat load-out of 70 to 100 rounds doesn't last long, especially when your scared out of your mind and the adrenaline level is max'd.
The odds were only about 20 to 1. Figure best case = 1 casualty for every 100 rounds fired. Hostiles suffer a total of 200 casualties. Not all necessarily KIA, just casualties. That means in real numbers, when Custers command fires their very last round, they still face around 3800 hostiles. Not an optimum position to be in.
It matters not how you spin the weapons. The number of casualties per number of rounds fired will remain approximately the same. With repeating rifles, it just means you run out of ammo faster. Shorter fight. Same outcome. Every time. A lot like watching Titanic movies. Always ends the same.
Custer only had one good option. Turn and RUN LIKE HELL.
Coffinmaker
PS: It has however, made real interesting reading and given something to do on a cold grey morning ;D
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Military Wisdom 101 - "When you are surrounded, you are in a "target-rich" environment."
Until the ammo runs out .....
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What "if" eh !
" if " we had ham we could make a ham and cheese sandwich " if " we had cheese :)
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Ok, who remembers the twilight zone episode with the national guard tank and crew go back in time? Then came upon the battle. the tank was abandoned and the men joined the battle with m1 carbines and 1911's. Did not change the out come, just added to the kia's.
That was an M5 Stuart, one of my favorite tanks.
RCJ
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It was a Stuart. They should have brought the tank to the battle.
P.S. Stuart was the M3.
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I guess if we are going there :-\
The Twilight Zone, Episode "The 7th Is Made Up of Phantoms"
Starred Warren Oates.....
maybe some Ma Deuces :D
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One of the best episodes on the twilight zone.
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It was a Stuart. They should have brought the tank to the battle.
P.S. Stuart was the M3.
M3 was the first two models designation, primarily aircraft engines using High octane aviation fuel. With the M5 model switched to V-8 engines burning regular, plus other upgrades. Larger engines necessitated the raising of the upper rear deck, giving it a more box-like shape.
M5 Stuart[edit]
To relieve the demand for the radial aero-engines used in the M3, a new version was developed using twin Cadillac V-8 automobile engines and twin Hydra-Matic transmissions operating through a transfer case. This variation was quieter, cooler and roomier. Owing to its automatic transmission it also simplified crew training. The new model (initially called M4 but redesignated M5 to avoid confusion with the M4 Sherman[7]) also featured a redesigned hull with sloped glacis plate and driver's hatches moved to the top. Although the main criticism from the units using it was that the Stuarts lacked firepower, the improved M5 series kept the same 37 mm gun. The M5 gradually replaced the M3 in production from 1942 and, after the M7 project proved unsatisfactory, was succeeded by the Light Tank M24 in 1944.
(Above courtesy of Wikipedia.)
Many foreign versions were in service during the fifties and sixties. The French M5A1s participated in the Indo-Chinese campaign until 1954, and the Portuguese ones (only three) served in Angola in 1967.
(The Twilight Zone series is on Netflix, so now you've got me interested in the specific model. The M5A1 had a stepped back with raised rear, while the M5A3 had a straight line from front of glacis to rear.)
RCJ
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Episode 112 "The 7th Is Made Up Of Phantoms"
It's an M5A3. Forgot that Warren Oates was in that one.
RCJ
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Sir! I stand corrected on the the tank numerical designation. I still think they should have brought the tank to the battle M 3 or M 5.
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National Guard is/was not issued ammo for their tanks while in Garrison. Only issued when on annual training. At least that's the way it use to be.
Coffinmaker
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Episode 112 "The 7th Is Made Up Of Phantoms"
It's an M5A3. Forgot that Warren Oates was in that one.
RCJ
The National guard commanding officer and aid spotting the names of his three missing guardsmen on the Custer memorial.
C/O: "If they had taken thank, maybe they would have had a better chance."
Aid: "Sir?"
C/O: "Nothing"
That was a spooky ending. I have all 5 seasons on DVD. My wife and I love them.
Anyway, the question of the makeup of the 7th Cavalry came up. They were immigrants and men trying to get to gold, it was said.
Well, I don't know about them all being get rich quick gold finders, but I looked up the roll of the men who died in the 7th online a few years ago just out of curiosity. One thing I noticed, if I recall right, was they about a third were made up of immigrants from Ireland and Germany and two thirds were made up of men from Northern states mostly in the Midwest, Pennsylvania and New York. (I instantly remembered Ben Johnson's line from the John Ford movie She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, finding a 7th cappie with Cheyenne Indian feather attached and identifying the Indians as "...the same ones that whipped them Yankee soldiers with General Custer." (an arrow whizzes by his nose and he takes off with a party of Indians after him on grand chase across Monument Valley eluding them by jumping a ravine.) Seems, back then, the American army (or at least that part) was still, for the most part, the Northern army as reconstruction was about to end and most Southerners were still picking up the pieces rather than serving in the Army (which had been kind of the opposite before the war with Sec. of War Jefferson Davis' Second Cavalry in Texas). I guess it wasn't until the Spanish American war that the North and South took up arms in the Army (whether volunteer or regular) to fight in Cuba and the Phillippines in 1898
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I've been told by Confederate sympathizers that Lee surrendered the Army of Virginia, not the army of the CSA. In other words, the Civil War is ongoing.
One of most touching moments (of many) in "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" was the funeral for the ex-Confederate Brigadier-General(?) who was serving as a Union Cavalry Corporal.
Ben Johnson asked for permission to drape the coffin with the "Stars & Bars" and it was granted out of respect for a gallant soldier. That is the way to heal old wounds.
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HOW ON EARTH??? DOES THIS THREAD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CAS RELOADING??? OR .... EVEN CAS for that matter.
Coffinmaker
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Brigadier-General Rome Clay
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The battle of "Little Big Horn" has everything to do with CAS firearms of the era we play. Our roots, our history.
Canada provided a refuge for some of the combatants from the vengeance of the US Army and promised the Great White Mother they wouldn't do another "Custer" on our side of the DMZ. It would have been easy for them as our population was pretty scarce and the NWMP even scarcer.
HOW ON EARTH??? DOES THIS THREAD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CAS RELOADING??? OR .... EVEN CAS for that matter.
Coffinmaker
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What does the Battle of the Little Big Horn have to do with ..... "reloading??" Not remotely related to "Cowboy Action Shooting" the game.
Not that it hasn't been a fun thread. It's just way out there. Way Way out there.
Coffinmaker
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What does the Battle of the Little Big Horn have to do with ..... "reloading??"
Coffinmaker
Hmmm.... It's kind of a stretch, but, since one of the Indian Scouts was supposed to have told Custer that there were "more Indians then you have bullets"
Therefore, to insure victory, they would have had to call a halt to the battle, gather up all the brass, and do some reloading!
Well, I said it was a stretch.....
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Now ..... That right there be FUNNY.
AS GAC looks over his shoulder ...... XO, call time out. Send out the foragers to collect the brass. We gotta reload our brass. the rest of the Cavalry ain't coming!!!
Then was heard ....... Balls ..... Who's got Balls?? Doesn't anyone have Balls?? I'd sound retreat but some clown shot the bugler. XO ... I THINK WE'RE SCREWED!!
Coffinmaker
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I've been told by Confederate sympathizers that Lee surrendered the Army of Virginia, not the army of the CSA. In other words, the Civil War is ongoing.
One of most touching moments (of many) in "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" was the funeral for the ex-Confederate Brigadier-General(?) who was serving as a Union Cavalry Corporal.
Ben Johnson asked for permission to drape the coffin with the "Stars & Bars" and it was granted out of respect for a gallant soldier. That is the way to heal old wounds.
I've heard (and agree) with your first paragraph. Events in the past two decades have made it clear that...the Yankees and their allies are still shooting at us. Only now, it seems more Northerners are on our side as most good decent Americans are not offended by all things Southern. The best men in the Union army even during and after the war were disgusted at the Radical Republican and Abolitionist venom and efforts to wipe out the South and spit on even the graves of our dead.
Yes that was a very touching scene in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon. You even hear Dixie softly playing as the dying Trooper "Smith" speaks to John Wayne and Ben Johnson. John Ford, in particular, was always good and respectful to the South in his movies. In fact, I think a few years ago during the 150th Anniversary of the War, TCM narrator Robert Osbourne said that John Ford agreed to do the movie The Horse Soldiers with John Wayne with the understanding that the South would be treated fairly. And so it was. One of our favorite John Wayne movies. (filmed not too far from where I live...in fact there is an old horse ranch down the road from me that donated some of the horses for use in that movie)
(BTW, just for clarification, the Stars and Bars is not the Confederate Battle Flag or Navy Jack. The Stars and Bars was the first national flag of the Confederate States and was designed like the Flag of 1776 with a circle of stars on a blue field in the corner and white and red bars instead of stripes. The Confederate Battle flag that we think of today was actually the Southern Cross or St. Andrews Cross with a Saltire and used in various colors, lettering, shapes in different armies in the Confederacy. A lot of people get that confused)
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HOW ON EARTH??? DOES THIS THREAD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CAS RELOADING??? OR .... EVEN CAS for that matter.
Coffinmaker
You know I'm not sure either. I posted this quite a while ago and I can't remember if it got moved here by a moderator for whatever reason or I accidentally clicked the wrong link and didn't realize it was in the wrong forum until I posted it and it never got moved to somewhere appropriate. In fact, you'll notice I never responded to anything until recently. I seem to remember losing this thread as soon as I posted it and figured it was deleted long ago. It wasn't until a few weeks ago that I saw it in the headlines generating discussion that I realized it not only made it but was still in talk. In any event, it has generated some interesting discussion.
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"I sang 'Dixie' while he died.
Whisky had robbed him of his Southern pride ..."
Line from a Dwight Yoakum song.
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Funny, I'm probably going to be watching They Died With Their Boots on later this week. It's funny how all the movies do Custer's last stand the same: Custer and his men are all bunched together on an open plain, dismount and are huddled together with 4000 Indians circling them until all are dead. From They Died With their Boots on in the 40s to Little Big Man in the 70s Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee made a few years ago.
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Custer and his 5 companies ran out of ammo. The spooked horses carried away their spare ammo. The pack train never reached them. Reno and Benteen had 24,000 rds of ammo because, they ended up with the pack train, plus what they already had on them.
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at this point what difference does it make?
Seems to me I heard that somewhere
Bunk
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Yep, but I was hopin we wouldn't hear it here. :P ::) :o
wM1
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I had my pet war-gaming computer (WHOPPER by name) run simulations of all the possible scenarios of the Battle of The Little Big Horn. The result always comes up the same. Custer gets wiped out. The Indians ride off into the sunset. The great White Father in Washington still runs all the native people off their land and Penn State loses the Rose Bowl because of two STUPID PENALTIES in the last two minutes.
The Titanic still ran into an Iceberg and sank. No matter what, if you irritate a Skunk, the outcome will NOT be harmonious. ::)
SO THERE!!
Coffinmaker ;D
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Custer should have called in the gunships! Or few F4's dropping naplam. Like the 7th did near Bong son.
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Custer had a couple of Gatling guns in his train that he did not deploy.
They would have been of great service in a redoubt, making the position unassailable. But, they didn't think like that back then.
It took General Middleton to first use Gatlings in the fight against the Metis where allegedly, some RC Nuns were among the casualties.
The gunner was a Yankee Militia Officer from Connecticut, I believe. Howard, by name .... ? I'd have to refer to my library.
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Custer had a couple of Gatling guns in his train that he did not deploy.
They would have been of great service in a redoubt, making the position unassailable. But, they didn't think like that back then.
It took General Middleton to first use Gatlings in the fight against the Metis where allegedly, some RC Nuns were among the casualties.
The gunner was a Yankee Militia Officer from Connecticut, I believe. Howard, by name .... ? I'd have to refer to my library.
Custer didn't have the Gatling guns with him at LBH, he refused them at the mouth of the Rosebud as they would impede his march. If he had taken them he would not have arrived at LBH as early has he did, as they had to criss cross the Rosebud creek many, many times between June 22 and June 24 slowing his advance. Gatling guns were being pulled by condemned cavalry horses. It was bad enough dragging a pack train. Assuming he had them at LBH on the 25th, the terrain was against him. Undulating ground, Hostiles popping up here and there at different levels would have rendered the Gatling guns useless. If anyone could have used them it would have been Reno in the valley fight as it was on level ground. But, he would of had to ford them across the LBH River which was in full spring flow. As I mentioned earlier, if they took the Gatling guns, the Hostiles would have departed LBH before Custer would have gotten there.
U.S. Army tactics of the day have shown that Gatling guns were good for attacking a hostile village on level ground, but, on undulating ground at different levels.........useless! Basically, Custer and his 5 companies ran out of ammo. The Cheyenne spooked the cavalry horses by waving blankets and blowing eagle bone whistles. The horses left with the extra ammo. The pack train did not arrive for Custer but, Reno and Benteen 4 miles away had the pack train with 24,000 rounds of ammo in a defensive position and survived (mostly). The 7th Cavalry (12 Companies) at LBH suffered 51% casualties.
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What they should have had is them Hollywood six guns that shot all thru the movie without reloading. That would have changed things.
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Custer didn't have the Gatling guns with him at LBH, he refused them at the mouth of the Rosebud as they would impede his march.
Didn't say that he had them at LBH, did I? I said that he has them in his support train. Poor intel and recce set him up for his debacle along with terrain issues.
Great bein' an armchair general after the fact, ain't it? I got a pal in war gaming and he keeps asking me to get involved. He says it's an excellent way to learn something about tactics - with the benefit of hindsight, that is!
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Didn't say that he had them at LBH, did I? I said that he has them in his support train. Poor intel and recce set him up for his debacle along with terrain issues.
Great bein' an armchair general after the fact, ain't it? I got a pal in war gaming and he keeps asking me to get involved. He says it's an excellent way to learn something about tactics - with the benefit of hindsight, that is!
The first line in your post gave the impression that he had the Gatling guns with him when he arrived at LBH. LBH is my next favourite hobby after CAS. I have been to LBH approx 15 + times and have two bookshelves with over 50 books plus numerous papers, writings, articles etc all on LBH. I have been on the LBH forum since internet became available. I have followed the Custer trail from fort Abraham Lincoln (Bismarck, ND) to the LBH a couple of times. Hollywood always shows that when they left the fort, they arrived at LBH the same day, when in fact it took them 40 days to get to LBH. I guess you could say that I'm a Custerphile.. I have given impromptu guided tours of the Reno/Benteen site, mainly because there were no information pamphlets left. It is good to see that they now have pictographs/commentary at each of the markers showing what happened at each spot, rather than than having to rely on brochures that run out and are seldom replenished. LBH is a fascinating study. I'm 75 this year and I am going to LBH again this summer. Probably the last time before I start collecting that pension cheque in the sky. I was there on the anniversary (June 25, 1876) in 1998 and met Jon Custer, a descendent of Nevin Custer, GAC's brother.
Take care
Garryowen
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i would says that they fought 1 hour longer, maybe, to much Indians around...
i was asking a similar question at the British Militarya Forum under Martini Henry and the Zulu Wars Thread.
what are happen with the defenders of Roke Drift Natal when the 4000 Zulu Warriors are armed with the English Longbows ( trained like a Yeoman) instead of their War Cubes and short Spears.?
Klaus
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it would seem to me that Custer was out maneuvered, out numbered, out gunned and just plane ran out of men and luck at the same time.
When he split his command, and crossed that creek he was finished and just did not know it.
The final score was Indians 1 Blue Coats 0
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Start this again.... First Reno and his men made in through the battle so the major problem with Custer was that the troops got strung out and the Sioux picked them off one by one plus captured the ammo. By the time Custer took a "stand" most of the men were already dead. That said, the Sioux were without question better armed. Repeating rifles would have helped.
As I understand the game plan, there was an elongated hill several hundred yards from the river that ran parallel to the river. The Sioux camp was along the river bank. Custer would go in back of this hill, out of sight of the Sioux while Reno charged right in with the idea of immediately turning around and heading back to high ground and take up the defensive. The Sioux warriors would charge Reno, leaving the women and children alone. Custer would then swoop down from the back and grab the women and children, holding them hostage until the Sioux agreed to return to the reservation.
An incredible gamble and it didn't work. The other thing that hit me was that the Sioux had to have scouts out, they never would have had that hill behind them without lookouts.
On the Gatling guns, remember the ammo wagon was the last item on Custer's force, trailing behind, and therefore the first thing picked off by the Sioux. I don't know with the Gatling guns in that situation would have done much good.
The most logical thing would have been to take up a position on high ground and get word to the other forces.
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Re: what if Custer's 7th had been armed with Spencers/Winchesters and Schofields
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2014, 06:07:19 PM »
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If you read the threads in SSS, you'll find the Army's rationale for using a hard-hitting single-shot.
That said, nothing can beat thorough training, and in order to do that, you have to be able to back it up with funding for ammunition, amongst other things - something that the frontier Army just didn't have.
Custer's Seventh - like every other Frontier Army outfit - was filled with newly-arrived immigrants and men trying to get to the gold fields while eating Army rations.
They weren't elite, well-trained, highly-motivated, agile, mobile, and hostile troopers by any stretch of the imagination.
Custer was conventional Cavalry combat-experienced, and an experienced leader of men - ask the Michigan Wolverines - but he was also hungry for glory and a chance to redeem himself - and he - like everyone else - seriously underestimated his foe's capabilities.
Never before - and never since - would American troops encounter the number of Indians in one place and cocked, locked and ready to rock - and they reminded the Army that there were still lessons to be learned on the modern battlefield - lessons we would take to heart.
It would take Crook's implacable Infantry to bring the Indian Wars to a close - but there was no way John Ford could add 'romance' to hard-campaigning dogfaces who pursued in winter, so that part of the truth is always left to the dust of history.
Scouts Out!
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A harsh lesson the Zulu taught the 24th Foot at Isandlwana three years later.
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Our military has always been about 20 years behind the times when it comes to choosing weapons for its ground troops. They always put saving ammo over soldiers lives. Start with the War of Northern Aggression, the Indian campaigns, Spanish American War, WW1, WW2, up to Vietnam when they finally learned their lessons after the fact. Whether this would have changed the tide of Custers last stand or not, we’ll be arguing that into the next century.
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First of all, Custer's troopers did NOT run out of ammunition! Their guns ran out of troopers first! The companies that formed Custer's battalion were strung out so that they could not effectively cover each other. When the troopers dismounted, in some cases, every fourth man became the horse-holder, reducing the firepower by 25%. In the instance where each man held his own horse (Tom Custer's company, IIRC), accurate shooting with a plunging, terrified horse wasn't very likely. In the instances where horses were either killed or thrown down to form a barricade, those Indians who had bows and arrows, simply fired volleys of high-trajectory arrows, killing or wounding the troopers. The Indians simply overran the troops, cutting the battalion up in detail!
The criticism that Custer "divided his command", while correct in content, was standard tactics in those days. Crook did the same at the Rosebud a week earlier, and the only thing that saved him were the presence of Shoshone and Crow scouts, and armed civilian packers and some Montana prospectors. Also, when he at first sent Mill's down Rosebud Canyon, but then recalled him, and that battalion defiled out of the canyon, putting them behind the hostiles, and the Sioux and Cheyenne saw this and broke off. But Crook had twice as many men as Custer, and perhaps more luck! The only thing that could have save Custer was that which was not available...the ability to get on the radio and call for an air strike, "danger close"!
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what if custer ??
well he woulda still got a beating
appears he acted like an arrogant fool (likely was one at the time)
outnumbered at least ten to one (warrior to warrior - reports say there were 10,000 locals there but women, kids, and old people in camp too)
made poor (dumb) decisions on the day - better armed woulda helped for sure - but that day was not his ...........
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Would that have really made a difference as is so often claimed?
The Trapdoor .45-70's advantage of shooting beyond the range of the Indian's bow and arrow and lever action rifles.
But then we are still talking about 4000 Souix and Cheyenne braves against 200 something odd American troopers.
The real question is "What if he had taken the two Gatling guns?" ???
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The real question is "What if he had taken the two Gatling guns?" ???
The available Gatlings were mounted on gun carriages pulled by condemned cavalry horses! Given the terrain they probably wouldn't have done him much good, as they probably couldn't keep up with his troopers. He'd have been better off with pack howitzers that were light enough to pack on mules. The Indians were more afraid of artillery. Not sure of the range of those tubes, but they might have been enough to set them up with Reno/Benteen, providing support.
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Personally I'd have brought the tank.
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I just read an article on the Gatling by Blair Taylor in a 2002 Shootist. He owned a repro of a percussion Gatling (I confess I had no idea they started as percussion). He brought up this topic, and in his opinion Custer would have lost anyway. He says "Although well-trained crews could do the "unlimbering" and "limbering" operations very quickly, the gunners and the guns were extremely vulnerable during that time, especially in a fast moving and running gun battle that was the fight at Little Bighorn."
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Personally I'd have brought the tank.
Perhaps you're referring to the classic "Twilight Zone" episode starring Warren Oates? I agree. A tank would be useful.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734627/ (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734627/)
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I think the proper question of "what if" should be, what if Custer had not been put or placed in command?
My best,
Blair
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:) PLUS ONE for Blair ;)