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The Leather Shop / Re: Man With No Name
« Last post by Professor Marvel on Today at 03:09:53 AM »
This guy sells “printable  pdf patterns” for a number of rigs, and claims his man with no name pattern is accurate.
I have no clue, just manged to find it, and it seems to be the only vendor i can find.


www.londonjacksleather.com.


Prf mumbles
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The Darksider's Den / Re: Which rifle for BP?
« Last post by Abilene on Today at 12:10:09 AM »
A .38 full of BP will never be accused of being a bunnyphart load  :)
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The Darksider's Den / Re: How did we get these "Calibers"?
« Last post by Abilene on Yesterday at 11:55:59 PM »
I think Coffin "Hacksaw McGurk" Maker (forwards) likes his around an inch and a half, right Mike?  Or to the ejector, sometimes. 

Mine was made by putting a Navy grip on a "1860 Type II" as Uberti calls it, in .38.   Their 1860 conversions in .38, both R-M and Type II, come with the Navy frame/cylinder.  Since the Type II '60 barrel is the same shape as a '61, it is easy to turn it into a '61 Type II with the Navy grip. Colt made the one tool-room model we have a picture of, with a 7.5" barrel and no loading gate.  But this gun would have been easy to make, even back in the day, just a parts swapper.  Let's say somebody has a '51 R-M conversion, and they blew up the barrel or otherwise ruined it.  You take a '61 barrel, the ejector assembly of a'60 type II should fit, and put them on the Navy frame.  Ta-Da.

I have a matching .44 that is a little more period correct, or at least common. I put Navy grips on it as well since that's what I prefer.  I shoot smokeless Specials and BP Russians in it. 

Oh yeah, to answer the question, 5 1/2" since that's as short as they come.  I do have my Kirst-Strite '61 with a 7 1/2" barrel as well.
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The Darksider's Den / Re: Loading 777 in cartridges
« Last post by Sedalia Dave on Yesterday at 10:52:48 PM »
Yep the no airspace thing is not as critical as some people make it out to be.

In cartridge guns and C&B pistols you know you have too much airspace when there is a noticeable delay between pulling the trigger and the boom.  I hear it most often in C&B pistols with mouse fart loads.
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The Darksider's Den / Re: Loading 777 in cartridges
« Last post by Mako on Yesterday at 09:54:02 PM »
First question, is it 2F or 3F?

3F is for modern muzzle loaders only.
2F can be used in cartridges, shot shells and modern muzzle loaders.
Hodgdon does not recommend that any grade of 777 be used in antique firearms.

Load it to just shy of the base of the bullet. Hodgdon does not recommend compressing 777.


 yeah, yeah yeah... just like Hellgate I have used it wrong too.  I was in a place I couldn't get BP for a while and used APP and 777 flown in for us (funny story about what is considered dangerous and they won't transport on military contracted flights...).  I just loaded it like I do Real powder.

I also don't care what grain size of powder I load for Cowboy shooting, I shoot FFFg, FFg, Fg and probably floor sweepings.  I mainly shoot reenactment powders when I can get them (so I'm cheap...).  I have shot Fg from cap and ball revolvers and even 4F and 4F mixed with 1F.  As you can see I'm a "snob" (NOT) when it comes to shooting at targets 10 to 15 yards away from revolvers, rifles and shotguns.

Now saying all of that and sounding smug, I will admit I just paid $67.99/lb for 4 lbs of IMR 4064 last week which is only enough for just 699 loaded rounds (unless I spill some), with tax, shipping and hazmat that is over $0.47 per round!  I will spend money when it counts but as I said, cowboy action ranges unless you are in a PRS or some sort of long range side match just shoot what you can get.

You can always have space in a case (horrors!) even with BP.  John Kort found a bunch of 19th century shells loaded in partially filled cases.  I'm not sure where the "use a full case or seat the bullet against the powder" came from.  Smokeless powder generates a LOT more pressure a LOT more quickly (I can show you the pressure ramp rate charts).

Hellgate's suggested 13 grains sounds good and he is RIGHT, 777 loads are still very low pressure loads.  The manufacturers have to warn us that eating the powder can be harmful to our health and Prop. 65 will warn you that you should not attempt to reproduce after using a substance as dangerous as 777.

All joking aside, firearms are serious things, they can and will kill you or others if mishandled.  But, BP and BP substitutes are not some mystical art, they are in fact easier to use than smokeless powder.

~Mako
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The Darksider's Den / Re: Which rifle for BP?
« Last post by litl rooster on Yesterday at 09:43:51 PM »
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The Darksider's Den / Re: Which rifle for BP?
« Last post by DeaconKC on Yesterday at 09:18:37 PM »
Sedalia Dave, great picture! I do not anneal, hopefully won't ever need to. One of the reasons I run good stout loads in my guns.
Mako, thank you for the most timely case information. I have literally thousands of .38 Special cases [mostly once-fired] and this information gives me hope for BP. I think using a 150-158 grain RNFP with a strong  APP load will be my starting point for going this route.
Thank you to ALL who have given me much needed and appreciated insight!
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The Darksider's Den / Re: Which rifle for BP?
« Last post by Mako on Yesterday at 09:08:26 PM »
Deacon,
Have you ever annealed cases?  I have annealed the mouths of my my .38s and .44 Russians to help with the obturation upon firing and to allow me to put hard crimps on the bullets without getting cracks on the mouth.  I have not performed designed experiments to determine how well this works for straight wall pistol cases but i have done it for some time for my .308, .300 blackout, .30-06 brass and even my better loads in 5.56.  I definitely need it on my match .308 and '06 loads for my semi-auto rifles.

The "problem" with heavier cases like the .45 Colt is getting adequate expansion at BP or BP substitute pressures.  .38 spl. cases are a bit thinner and I do it mainly because I have an auto annealer I built, and I can just load up the hopper. The .44 Spl feeds okay but the shorter .44 Russian need to have the case added one by one to the drum and a hundred cases eats up almost an hour with a 4 second anneal, the handloading loading is the time adder.

You will find .45 Colt brass runs all over the place.  Some as thin as .012" but John Boy was measuring some time back in an earlier discussion about the appropriateness of .45 Colt brass with BP and reported from about .019" to .024" inches of wall thickness at the mouth area down about 5/16ths" into the case on 12 different brands.  The .38s are much thinner running about .010"-.012", if you use .38 brass that has a straighter wall  made expressly for wadcutters you will get .010" for a depth of about .5".  You can tell those match cases by the cannelure about midway down the case.  I have a bunch because I used to build PPC revolvers and hoard the straight wall brass for long hollow base wad cutters.

This is all wadcutter brass, the 2nd, 4th and 5th are for hollow base wadcutters.



So, .38 is thinner walled and with well crimped loads (and heavier bullets) builds enough pressure to swell that case and seal the chamber as well as a Remington or Win .44-40 case in my experience. BUT, Starline makes a very thin walled (at the mouth) of about .0065" which seals exceptionally well.  They make that brass for people who own original .73s like mine which shoot the Ø.027" bullets better than Ø.028" bullets .  That thin walled brass works very well for Black Powder loads in modern reproductions.  Now don't get the idea that all of your sealing takes place at the mouth, the neck helps too.

I have been shooting TOP BRASS .44 Russian Cases and they are even thinner than my Starline .44 Russian and .44 Special cases.  they run around .010" to .011" at the mouth.  They were a bit hard and the annealing helped with that.  Starline Brass is always annealed when I get it and doesn't work harden much with BP load unless you have a an aggressive sizing die.  However a HARD crimp does work the brass and it needs to be annealed every 6 or so reloads if you don't want any splits.  I have some .44 spl brass I have been using for over 25 years and it looks almost new when I tumble polish it.  (I actually have match .308 brass I have had for over 40 years and only lose it or scrap it when it gets dented.)

~Mako
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The Darksider's Den / Re: Loading 777 in cartridges
« Last post by hellgate on Yesterday at 07:55:48 PM »
Bunk,
I've been inadvertanyly reloading 777 wrong for about as long as the powder has been around. I use the 3F exclusively in 357 and 38SPL but all my 38SPL shooting has been in .357s. YMMV. I like how the 3F stuff meters. If you are shooting 124gr bullets you would need 15 grs 777 to be at the bullet base with a normal COAL for the 38s. It is a "snappy" load but just fine unless you are in a competitive SASS match. Then I would load 13 grs powder and have a small bit of space under the bulle for a less recoiling load. The 777 loads are still way below what a full smokeless load pressure would be.

I also use 3F 777 in modest 12ga shotgun loads for Cowboy Action matches.
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The Darksider's Den / Re: Which rifle for BP?
« Last post by Sedalia Dave on Yesterday at 07:44:52 PM »

I will tell you this though, I get more residue back in the action from racking the action as fast as I can shoot than I ever do on the range taking my time between shots.  There are speckles all over my '66s from black powder still smoking as I eject shells during a match.  I get as little as I do with my original Win 73 in .44 WCF when I am taking my time between shots (no hot unburned  powder flying...)

~Mako

My 1860 Henry and 66 both wear that patina on the receiver.

Here is a picture of still burning powder coming out of my shot shells as they are ejected from my 1887
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