Author Topic: All Four  (Read 4446 times)

Offline Little Dalton

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Re: All Four
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2023, 02:36:48 PM »
To those in this thread who might be interested, I happened to notice that Buffalo Arms has a Cimarron .40-60 1876 for sale. https://www.buffaloarms.com/model-1876-centennial-40-60-wi-ca2502.html
Jordan Goodwin, Blacksmith

Offline greyhawk

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Re: All Four
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2023, 05:24:29 AM »
You needn’t type your fingers to the bone in an attempt to share info on the history of the Winchester 1876, the cartridges for which it is chambered and why Winchester used the rates of twist they used to me or the majority of the regular posters here.

We did our homework many years ago and are quite familiar.

With respect to Uberti and Chaparral updating the rates of twist for some of the calibers they offer in their reproduction 1876’s; it has certainly made it easier for some of us to get useable accuracy with a wider range of bullet weights/bullet lengths and smokeless powder.

5 rounds out of my Chaparral short rifle with 1:48 twist using .515 diameter 450 grain bullets H4198 powder at 100 yards (velocity was just short of 1300 fps)


just love the way that steel plate actually bled when you shot it ! ;D

Offline dusty texian

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Re: All Four
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2023, 06:25:23 AM »
just love the way that steel plate actually bled when you shot it ! ;D
            Yep I think he killed it greyhawk . Every time I see that picture , makes me want to go out and clang the iron .,,,DT

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Re: All Four
« Reply #43 on: Today at 07:44:20 AM »

Offline DrummerBoy

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Re: All Four
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2023, 11:28:56 PM »
Well, for whomever might be interested, DrummerBoy hisself here with some new acquisitions toward the “All Four” goal. I now have brass in all four calibers. As a neophyte I just do what comes easiest for the time being.  45-60 and 50-95 in cowboy loads from Steinel, 40-60 from Graf (Jamison) and now 45-75 that Mr Palazzo at Ammunition Artifacts makes from Starline 50 Alaskan. Obviously I’ve shot the rounds from Steinel so they work … all I can do at this time is drop the 40-60 and the 45-75 into their respective barrels which I did and both drop right in…more rigorous testing to come
I did manage to get the three-die legacy sets for the 45-60 and the 50-90..I know that it’s possible to get the Lyman 310 in every caliber except the 50, but who knows when that’ll turn up…lastly I’m gonna try to slug all  the bores with some of these 54 caliber Hornady balls…..”Slowly We Turn, Step by Step”……

Offline DrummerBoy

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Re: All Four
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2023, 12:53:42 AM »
…..SLUGGED my two loose barrels today…my first effort at it:
Did the 40-60 first. Went to the ACE and got some calipers and wood dowels, put bore butter down the muzzle and on a Hornady 464 musket ball, set the barrel on a roll of toilet paper and started tapping on a section of dowel…left a big ol lead ring on the muzzle and got a relatively nice little slug..measured 12/32 with my cheap calipers..I have some Acme .406 250 grain bullets and they measure 12/32 as well so I’m grossly in the .406 ball park for my groove diameter…seems I need a .407 or .408 to seal this particular bore…also looks as if CH4D has a die set..

Offline Roosterman

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Re: All Four
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2023, 11:14:42 AM »
…..SLUGGED my two loose barrels today…my first effort at it:
Did the 40-60 first. Went to the ACE and got some calipers and wood dowels, put bore butter down the muzzle and on a Hornady 464 musket ball, set the barrel on a roll of toilet paper and started tapping on a section of dowel…left a big ol lead ring on the muzzle and got a relatively nice little slug..measured 12/32 with my cheap calipers..I have some Acme .406 250 grain bullets and they measure 12/32 as well so I’m grossly in the .406 ball park for my groove diameter…seems I need a .407 or .408 to seal this particular bore…also looks as if CH4D has a die set..
That's what mine measures, .406
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Offline DrummerBoy

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Re: All Four
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2023, 12:58:57 PM »
THANKS Roosterman! I’m really feeling my way on this and it’s good to get some feedback!

Offline kwilliams1876

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Re: All Four
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2023, 05:39:28 PM »
I am thinking someone needs to buy, borrow, or steal a 1" micrometer! I would never work off fractions to measure a bore diameter.

Offline DrummerBoy

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Re: All Four
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2023, 12:04:58 AM »
Mr Williams,Thanks so much for your concern. Im sure your remarks are well intended…However, the extrapolations derived with the aid of my tin thingamajig did show me that I’m roughly in line with Venturino’s spread of .406 to .410 published for several Winchesters in 40 caliber…as well as Mr Pearce’s article exploring Italian 40 caliber reproductions…there’s a ghost of a chance I’ll look for a bullet larger than .406 now..probably no bigger than .408…
BTW my 50 cal slug and my Steinel ammo are both just a RCH shy of 17/32..Bigger than .515 smaller than .531..now in this case, Venturino got .508 off an original and Miller got .514 off a new repro? But my Steinels make round holes at 50 yards…I mashed all my oversized lead balls down the spout with a wood stick..so my conclusion is that one gathers information from various sources, couples that with empirical data to establish the working zone and then relies on the physical characteristics of 20:1 lead to make up the difference…I’m not sure that Ideal ever made a digital loading tong…
Many Thanks Again,

Offline DrummerBoy

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Re: All Four
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2023, 11:03:18 PM »
Hello all,
In other news I managed to get my 45-60 NWMP and my 50-95 Prasidio out to the 50 yard range today, great day for it!
Well, I’m not shooting them too well, but if I stay out of their way, they certainly hold up their end!!
At 50 yards both of mine shoot high. My bull was about 14” and I ended up shooting both below 6 o’clock..the 50 ended up grouping around 2 o clock and the 45 was around 7 o clock..
But both DID group!! MY ability to get sight alignment and sight picture is a work in progress as is my learning of the triggers, but I WAS getting 3-4” clumps of 3-4 shots.
I was using Steinel ammo store bought from Cimarron..300 grain in the 45 and 350 in the 50. Advertised at 1350 fps….3 flyers apiece …guns AND ammo are better than me!!!

Offline King Medallion

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Re: All Four
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2023, 08:19:17 AM »
I don't have a 40/60, yet, but I did have to put a taller front sight on my Presidio. A Marbles 41W if memory serves. Brought the POI right up to bullseye at 50 yards. I don't much care for the stock front sights on any of my 76's, have replaced them all with Marbles.
King Medallion

Offline Roosterman

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Re: All Four
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2023, 08:27:05 AM »
I don't have a 40/60, yet, but I did have to put a taller front sight on my Presidio. A Marbles 41W if memory serves. Brought the POI right up to bullseye at 50 yards. I don't much care for the stock front sights on any of my 76's, have replaced them all with Marbles.
I'm getting ready to change out all of mine to an ivory or gold bead.
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Offline DrummerBoy

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Re: All Four
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2023, 12:08:39 PM »
Roosterman and King Medallion THANKS for the responses, comments and advice!!

Now for a somewhat repetitious but still controversial topic:
The 73/76 toggle action:
It took me awhile and a lot of scrutinizing pics and drawings, but it seems that the toggle action is the only Winchester where the finger lever swings on a stationary point. All subsequent are on a plate that hinges down.  Makes me wonder if all the Browning actions are mainly to get a long cartridge angled up into the chamber. Further, the weakest point in ALL of the designs seems to be where the barrel screws into the receiver…not any more steel in one than the other. Finally, ALL the actions “lock” against t the receiver frame one way or another..except the 88…..where are the shear and bending moment diagrams  LOL
Just Scratching my head….

Offline DrummerBoy

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Re: All Four
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2023, 12:37:36 PM »
FURTHERMORE (heh-heh), I just watched this tremendously entertaining video from Kentucky Ballistics I wherein the moderator blew up a “Henry Brand” 45-70 with a massively overloaded cartridge:
It was the chamber that actually let go, possibly the true Achilles Heel of the tube fed lever action rifle, possibly not ANY action design
…..

Offline King Medallion

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Re: All Four
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2023, 04:28:01 PM »
I would also add that I prefer the 1/16th bead on my sights. I think, for me, that the 3-32 size bead takes up too much space in the rear sight. And, don't hit me, I'm contemplating a fiber optic front sight. Eyes are not what they used to be.
King Medallion

Offline DrummerBoy

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Offline King Medallion

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Re: All Four
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2023, 05:46:29 PM »
Just scored a set of Lee 40/60 dies. Guess I best look for a rifle now.😁
King Medallion

Offline Roosterman

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Re: All Four
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2023, 08:29:30 AM »
Just scored a set of Lee 40/60 dies. Guess I best look for a rifle now.😁
Thats the hard part!
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Offline Trailrider

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Re: All Four
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2023, 02:21:27 PM »
Roosterman and King Medallion THANKS for the responses, comments and advice!!

Now for a somewhat repetitious but still controversial topic:
The 73/76 toggle action:
It took me awhile and a lot of scrutinizing pics and drawings, but it seems that the toggle action is the only Winchester where the finger lever swings on a stationary point. All subsequent are on a plate that hinges down.  Makes me wonder if all the Browning actions are mainly to get a long cartridge angled up into the chamber. Further, the weakest point in ALL of the designs seems to be where the barrel screws into the receiver…not any more steel in one than the other. Finally, ALL the actions “lock” against t the receiver frame one way or another..except the 88…..where are the shear and bending moment diagrams  LOL
Just Scratching my head….
It is true that Browning designed his lever action rifles to handle the longer cartridges (except for the M1892, which was scaled down to handle the cartridges that the toggle link rounds were designed for.) Sure, you can blow up any rifle with the wrong smokeless loads. But the M1886, with slight modifications in the bolt face and the angle of the locking lugs, was capable of handling the .33 WCF and the .348 WCF, and the M1895 was even chambered for the .30-06 (although the '95 was springy enough to elongate and shorten the life of the cartridge cases if the brass was reloaded more than a few times). John Mose knew what he was doing. I don't know if he knew or cared about shear and bending moment diagrams. He just knew how to design guns so they worked reliably. Guns of his have come and faded into history...except, of course, for the M1911 and the M2 "Ma Deuce" .50 caliber machine gun.
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Offline King Medallion

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Re: All Four
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2023, 02:42:08 PM »
Faded into history,  you say?  Uh, ok.  :P  :-X
King Medallion

 

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