Author Topic: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?  (Read 1602 times)

Offline Black River Smith

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1199
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 48
Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« on: December 11, 2022, 04:37:22 PM »
First, I do not have a 40-60Win Rifle at this time.  I am actively looking for one, but I wanted to put reloading tools together first.  Less money up front.  I have an original Winchester bullet mold $30; a Lyman expander in 40-60(bought years ago new at $12; a yet to arrive Ebay purchased RCBS 40-60 trim die bought for $14; and 40 pieces of Jamison 40-60 brass.

Now, I do have a 45-60 with all the setup to alter 45-70's to this caliber.  Cut; size to 45-60; trim to 1.89 and re-size for final.

As some may know the major die manufactures have stopped making/offering 40-60 die set.  So, wanting to make more brass and then re-sizing and crimping is the present issue. I am wondering if some of you have ideas for alternative die combinations to get the job done.???

The only thing I have seen on the internet is someone stating that a Lyman 310 #53MR for 40-65 can be used to neck size the 40-60 back down to 0.425" OD.  But these are not commonly available on EBay.  I also came across an old posting in here, where someone made a neck sizing die themself for the 40-60 casing.  Also, 40-65 casing is 2.1" long tapered casing, therefore the die would not work for proper sizing to the desired 40-60 cartridge, even if cut by 1/4".  The base diameter would be wrong.  I will experiment with the trim die to see if a shoulder will form but I know it is not a forming die.

How can I get to the formed bottle-necked / shouldered 40-60??????  Any help appreciated.
Black River Smith

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

  • THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 6202
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 411
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2022, 10:48:25 PM »
Ch4d are worth a look at. They usually have an extensive list of rare or obsolete dies at VERY reasonable prices. As well they have many useful case conversion items.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline DeaconKC

  • Retired Predator Hunter
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1912
  • SASS #: 110215
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 5285
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2022, 09:05:44 AM »
Call Lyman directly, they sometimes have 1 or 2 leftovers in the back that are not listed on their website.
SASS DeaconKC
The Deacon AZSA
BOLD 1088
RATS 739
STORM 448
Driver for Howard, Fine & Howard
Veterinary & Taxidermy Clinic
"Either way, you get your dog back"

Advertising

  • Guest
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #3 on: Today at 08:11:32 AM »

Offline Sloan Dodgy

  • Soot Janitor
  • Very Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2022, 09:11:26 AM »
Good plan about calling Lyman directly.

I ran into that same problem some time ago and ended up using either a .41 Mag or .40 S&W sizing die to neck size previously fired .40-60 WCF cases.  It may well be that the trim die you have coming will be usable for body-sizing .40-65 WCF cases to the correct taper of the .40-60 WCF.  The body taper of those two cartridges is very close!  For subsequent loading use whichever .41 or .40 pistol sizing dies work best just to neck size; that process leaves a pretty much perfect 'shoulder' on your reloaded .40-60 WCF cartridges.

It may even be that full length sizing in a .40-65 die will reduce the tapered body diameter enough to fit in a .40-60 WCF chamber, neck sized as above of course.

This worked for me anyway in both an original Whiney-Kennedy and a new Chiappa '76 .40-60 from several years ago.

Offline Cap'n Redneck

  • Commd'g Co. D, Frontier Batt'n, Texas Rangers.
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 255
  • Cap'n Redneck SWS #163.
  • GAF #: 273
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2022, 09:27:49 AM »
You MIGHT be able to use the LEE .40 S&W (pistol cartridge) Factory Crimp Die to neck-size the .40-60 brass...?

I personally use the LEE .45 Colt Factory Crimp Die to neck-size .45-70 and .45-60 brass.

The corresponding LEE Full length sizing dies will give a little tighter neck-sizing than the Factory Crimp dies.

I like the LEE dies due to the carbide sizing rings in the dies, so very little need for case lube.

To adjust the depth of the neck-sizing I use a wagon-bolt with a nut, dropped into the hole where the Auto-Index hexagonal rod normally goes on my LEE 3-hole Turret Press.
"As long as there's lead in the air, there's still hope..."
Frontiersman & Frontiersman Gunfighter: The only two categories where you can play with your balls and shoot your wad while tweaking the nipples on a pair of 44s.

Offline Black River Smith

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1199
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 48
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2022, 08:10:50 PM »
Thanks for all the helpful comments.  I will try checking with RCBS, Lyman and Lee before buying 'piece-meal' dies and 40-65 die set.  CH4D does list the 40-60 Win 3Die set but it is $130.  Reasonable to some of you but high for me right now without first having the Rifle in hand.  Then being really needy.

Sloan Dodgy,
What did your 1876 groove diameter measure out to be?  What diameter bullet do you use?  The original Win Mold is dropping out at 0.405"

I guess I forgot to 'emphasize the last part' of reloading these 40-60's without the correct dies.  How do/would you crimp without the 40-60 seater/crimper die?

My big concern is being able to make enough brass from 45-70 Starline, to make the hunt for the rifle worthwhile.
Black River Smith

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

  • THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 6202
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 411
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2022, 09:04:44 PM »
Does anyone know what the correct RIM THICKNESS is for this round?
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline King Medallion

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1213
  • SASS #: 14753
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 168
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2022, 10:03:16 PM »
I don't know how accurate this is but... might be worth a call.
https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/23110
King Medallion
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

Offline DeaconKC

  • Retired Predator Hunter
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1912
  • SASS #: 110215
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 5285
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2022, 10:02:13 AM »
Hope this will help
SASS DeaconKC
The Deacon AZSA
BOLD 1088
RATS 739
STORM 448
Driver for Howard, Fine & Howard
Veterinary & Taxidermy Clinic
"Either way, you get your dog back"

Offline Black River Smith

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1199
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 48
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2022, 10:49:56 AM »
King,
Yep, that is where the 40 casings came from.  Just could not buy more at this time.  I have purchased 38-40, 44-40 and 44Spec this year directly from Starline.  Spent enough.  I will be wanting to buy the 45-70 from Starline to convert to more 45-60's and now hopefully this new 40-60.  I do have some Starline 45-70's from my previous 45-60 forming sessions, to use as practice for this new 40-60 'fun'.

DeaconKC,
Sir, yes that is the drawing and measurements that I have been working off of to try all of this extra work.  If I can get my hands on a 40-60 die set from one of the manufacturers, all this extra work stops.  As I have stated, we are all use to converting 45-70's to the desired final new cartridge just by trimming and sizing in proper dies.

Maybe all this discussion will help someone else down the road when all the 40-60 dies are 'gone'.

Thanks again for all the useful suggestions and comments.
Black River Smith

Offline Slamfire

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 991
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 59
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2022, 02:07:50 PM »
 BRS, sent you a PM.

  coffee's ready,  Hootmix.

Offline Black River Smith

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1199
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 48
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2022, 03:10:35 PM »
Well gents, I called all the major manufacturers and searched the web at several supply houses and no luck whatsoever.  Lee will do a custom die for about $250 but CH4d beats that by $100.

So please keep the ideas coming.

I had a call into RCBS but sat on the phone for 46 minutes then another 31 minutes, again.  Still going to call again later because of time differences between us.  Want to see what they have to offer as suggestions.

Slamfire,
I PM'ed you back.
Black River Smith

Offline Sloan Dodgy

  • Soot Janitor
  • Very Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2022, 03:53:09 PM »
Does anyone know what the correct RIM THICKNESS is for this round?

Depends on which rifle you are talking about.  The original cartridge dimensions are shown in the diagram above, and original '76s were set up for that; so are the Chaparral-made repros, at least the example I had.  Original brass (and the recent Jamison brass) follows those specs. The Jamison .40-60 WCF brass I have on hand has a .055" thick and .615-.620" broad rim.

Uberti '76s, though, appear to be set up to use converted modern .45-70 brass.  Those have a rim thickness of .070" and even more significantly, a rim diameter of only .605".  Again, my personal experience is that the good quality Jamison .40-60 WCF brass causes some difficulties in Uberti '76s because of the larger (and more original) rim diameter is too broad for the bolt face.  Converted .45-70 cases work perfectly in Uberti '76s chambered in .40-60 and .45-60.

Offline Black River Smith

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1199
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 48
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2022, 04:20:17 PM »
Sloan,
You are totally right.  It will all depend on what I can get my hands on.  I may even have to take something and then reline it to the 40-60.

I have a Chaparral 45-60 and know all about the differences in rim diameter and rim thickness between the manufactures.  I have only assumed what you stated about the Uberti's being setup for straight 45-70 converted brass.  My Chaparral likes the Starline thin rim thickness. But truly would work better on a larger diameter rim with the extraction/ejection of spent cases.  The main reason for buying the 40 Jamison pieces is to have them if I get a Chaparral and to see what will happen with them in my 45-60 extractor/ejector function.

40 pieces of brass is just never enough in these rifles.
Black River Smith

Offline Roosterman

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 568
    • Muzzleloading guns
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 96
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2022, 11:00:08 AM »
I got my dies from slamfire's source. I'm loading 20 rounds today with BP. Jamison rims do not fit a #8 shell  holder that fits all the 45 70 based brass. Luckily already had on hand 40 rounds converted from 45 70.
www.fowlingguns.com
Known to run with scissors from time to time
Citadel of Sin Social Club

Offline Black River Smith

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1199
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 48
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2023, 03:19:01 PM »
I'm loading 20 rounds today with BP. Jamison rims do not fit a #8 shell holder that fits all the 45 70 based brass.

I am sorry about this being so long since your last posting but I was waiting on an RCBS shell holder to arrive.  Well, that shell holder finally arrived today, and it is perfect for the Jamison brass / rim diameters.

If you have not already figured out the correct shell holder for Jamison brass it is a RCBS #49.  I found it on Amazon for $8.45.

Here is a link ---   https://www.amazon.com/RCBS-99249-Shell-Holder-No-49/dp/B008H31E20/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=RCBS+shell+holder+%23+49&qid=1674335750&sr=8-1

Hope this helps you,
BRS
Black River Smith

Offline King Medallion

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1213
  • SASS #: 14753
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 168
Re: Creating 40-60 without 40-60 dies?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2023, 11:12:13 AM »
King,
Yep, that is where the 40 casings came from.  Just could not buy more at this time.  I have purchased 38-40, 44-40 and 44Spec this year directly from Starline.  Spent enough.  I will be wanting to buy the 45-70 from Starline to convert to more 45-60's and now hopefully this new 40-60. 

What I did was put in an ad in the some classifieds for used 45/70 starline brass to cut down for 45/60, got plenty that way, no need to pay for new or wait for starline to start making more 45/70. Got plenty for much less than new price.
King Medallion
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk

© 1995 - 2023 CAScity.com