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The Winchester Model 1876 / Re: Load Data for the 40/60
« Last post by DrummerBoy on March 26, 2023, 10:12:38 PM »
Black River Smith,
Heartfelt Thanks! Now I’m getting somewhere!
Rather than thinking you’re a smart Alec I sincerely appreciate your concerns in dovetailing what I do know with what I need to know.
More later after I’ve digested your comments!
Thanks Again,
The Winchester Model 1876 / Re: Load Data for the 40/60
« Last post by Black River Smith on March 26, 2023, 08:20:01 PM »

First I am not being 'smart' with this response. Really. But I do not really understand your points or questions.  But I will try to address what I think you are stating and where you are gathering your information.

The velocities that Mike Venturino gives are with bullet that he has on hand or available.  What you need to look at and compare are the bullet weights of the originals and their velocities.
40-60 used a 210 gr bullet Cartridges of the World list it at 1562
40-65 used a 260 "   "         "              "  "     "        "    "  "  1420
40-82 used a 260  "   "         "             "  "     "        "    "  "  1490
40-72 used a 330  "   "         "             "   "    "        "     "  "  1407

Yes the 1876 40-60 does appear to be a good general cartridge but compare it to the original heavier bullet cartridges.
Yes the original 1876 was a rifle ahead of others with its 45-75 but it was behind Marlin in producing a rifle to handle the Government 45-70-405 cartridge which was the overall marketing GOAL.  Understand the 40-60(1884); 45-60(1879) and 50-95(1879) did not come around until later years.  See dates behind each cartridge.

Now to your next statement.  It appears to me that you are confusing Lyman's reloading concerns over original BP made rifles/pistols compared to modern made capabilities.  Most information in Lyman manuals are reduced loads to protect themselves from people loading smokeless in Original BP firearms.  What you state as psi value are most likely for original BP firearms. Example of this is separate loads for 45Colt in Single Action Armies and Rugers.

Then you state but 44 Magnums are offer in these same designs 1873 & 1892.  You are confusing Original BP steel with re-manufactured designs (replicas) using more modern steel.  'If I understand your comments correctly'.... Truly sorry if I am mis-understanding your comments.

Hope this helps you somewhat.  Keep on reading you will learn a lot more info about the originals -- the replicas -- & reloading of such.

This is my comment to help you understand my 30+yrs of this.  I never put smokeless in an original firearm produced in the BP era(others may).  You need to learn when that 'timeframe' is for the Original rifle or handgun you would buy.  I follow the manuals for 'reproducing original velocities' using smokeless powders in all replica firearms, I buy.  I load all replicas with full BP loaded cartridges using originally designed bullet or Lyman copies, if I so desire.
 If the manufacture states that their firearm is rated for a particular cartridge like 357Mag or 44Mag, I will fire that specific cartridge factory load every now and then but I general reload staying at mid-range velocities because, it is what I like.
The Winchester Model 1876 / Re: Load Data for the 40/60
« Last post by DrummerBoy on March 26, 2023, 05:34:45 PM »
All or None,
Here is another fit of head scratching cause I want to know more:
I’m putting this on 40/60 because “Lever Guns of the Old West” shows 40 caliber BP loads for 1876, 1886 and 1895 guns:
40-60: 57.0 gr of Cartridge for 1467 fps w/215 projo
40-65: 58.0 gr of Cartridge for 1356 fps w/246 projo
40-82: 78.0 gr of Cartridge for 1470 fps w/280 projo
40-72: 70.0 gr of Cartridge for 1516 fps w/280 projo
Not a significant difference for three significantly different action designs
The 1876 is not exactly out of the running in this selection…
NOW: the new Lyman manual says this about actions:
1873 should be limited to 13,700 psi on the 44-40 page
1886 should be limited to  26,900 psi on 2nd 45-70 page
1892 should be limited to 22,000 psi on the 44-40 page
1895 is good for 44,000 on the 405 page
But the 44 magnum pistol page lists pressures of 36,000 psi
And there are versions of both the ‘92 and the ‘73…
I’ve read on this site of Uberti limits of 28,000 for the 1876
Lots of apples and oranges here to be sure, but what all this is getting at for me is a suspicion that pure d strength might not have been the overriding design criteria:
Lyman doesn’t put a lot of faith in any lever action.
Could have been only the desire to accommodate longer cartridges and spiitzer projectiles…..
Y’all please set me straight… :-\
1860 Henry / Re: Rebuilt 66 finished!
« Last post by Coffinmaker on March 26, 2023, 10:22:23 AM »

 :) DEACON  ;)

YESSIREE Bob > (Uh, Bob Who??).  Tis fer sure running heavy loads will only sort of mitigate Blow-By.  ???

Blow-By is not as serious of a problem with that Heathen Fad Smokeless stuff some aficionados seem to be obsessed with, as it is with BP and Subs.  In point of fact, when shooting smokeless, rifles will run an entire match easily.  Not necessarily so with BP or Subs.  :P

I always get a kick out of when the Brass Pickers at a match look askance at my fired 44-40 brass 'cause it don't look like 44-40 brass.  Fun, you betcha.  8)

We'll get ya shooting some real decent powder yet Deacon.  Just hang in there  ::) 
I don't have an OT in .45, but my load for my SAA's is 200gr bullet with 4.6gr of Clays (Hodgdon's minimum.  They say 777 fps).  It is a pussycat to shoot, very clean, the brass is clean and falls out of the cylinder.  If I run out of Clays, I have Clay-Dot to switch to.
Spencer Shooting Society / Re: M1865 Burnside Spencer incoming
« Last post by shilohdiver on March 25, 2023, 07:53:00 PM »
Thanks for the tip on knew such a kit was out there...Im going to give it a try..all the best getting the burnside shooting.  S and S out of NY and Dixie Gun Works sells conversion blocks when they were in stock. Had a buddy get one last year and he had to get on a back order list and they eventually called him from dixie.
I have settled on a load of 7.5 grains of Unique under a 200 or 250 Grain RNFP cast bullet. My Opentops, Schofields and my 73 carbine all run well with it.
1860 Henry / Re: Rebuilt 66 finished!
« Last post by DeaconKC on March 25, 2023, 07:41:42 PM »
I limit by fouling by shooting full power loads, 7.5 grains of Unique under a 200 or 250 grain RNFP. And yup, I do have to clean em, but not as much as the guys with mouse fart loads.
SCORRS / Re: My new 90's are Awesome!
« Last post by Rube Burrows on March 25, 2023, 07:25:05 PM »
Nice. Glad you got them figured out and they shoot good. Sometimes we just have a weird day at the range.
The Winchester Model 1876 / Re: '76 Muskets in Hawaii
« Last post by Trailrider on March 25, 2023, 06:44:41 PM »
I have a M1886 Winchester in .45-70 that has "CGH" stamped on the buttstock. (Don't have access to the S/N right now. The rifle appears to have been reblued at sometime. I thought I had a magazine article on the subject, but can't find it now.  :(  The s/n does fall within the range of the ones according to the article.
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