Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L

Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The American Plainsmen Society => Topic started by: Niederlander on March 08, 2021, 10:03:25 AM

Title: California Rifle?
Post by: Niederlander on March 08, 2021, 10:03:25 AM
Gentlemen, I saw a reference to a "California Rifle" this morning.  From the context, it would seem to have been some sort of half stock, brass mounted rifle.  Anyone here know anything about them?
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Tsalagidave on March 09, 2021, 01:13:15 AM
To my knowledge, this was a general term for a heavy-barreled plains rifle of .50 or larger that could be used to take down a Grizzly Bear. It could be anything from a St. Louis gun to something from the Eastern States.

I believe, they were also called 'Bear Guns', but I'd have to go through the stacks to see what I can find. Don't know if this would be as easy as a Google search. I'll see if there is anything I can find.

-Dave
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Professor Marvel on March 09, 2021, 03:10:16 AM
I seem to recall (but cannot find) an article describing half-stock California rifles of medium caliber
(.45 or .50) with false muzzles being used to take seals off the coast.

there wer quite a few gunmakers on the Pacific coast.

there was once an auction listing for
"California Rifle Percussion 45 cal by Schneider & Browning"
but once sold, photos & descrition are gone

from http://www.earmi.it/USA%20Gunmakers/S.html
snip-----------
SCHNEIDER— 622 Market St., San Francisco, Calif. 1887. Made rifles called "Native Son Guns."
endsnip----------

and here's an auction for a purported back-action california rifle
Documented N. Curry & Bro. of San Francisco Retailer Marked "Silver Era" Back Action Half Stock Percussion Rifle
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/74/1164/marked-silver-era-back-action-half-stock-percussion-rifle

here's a link to another forum's discussion

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/late-1800s-california-rifle.1570/

hope this helps
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Niederlander on March 09, 2021, 07:31:41 AM
To my knowledge, this was a general term for a heavy-barreled plains rifle of .50 or larger that could be used to take down a Grizzly Bear. It could be anything from a St. Louis gun to something from the Eastern States.

I believe, they were also called 'Bear Guns', but I'd have to go through the stacks to see what I can find. Don't know if this would be as easy as a Google search. I'll see if there is anything I can find.

-Dave
I tried Googling it, but all you get when you Google California and rifle is laws and stuff how guns are evil.
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: River City John on March 09, 2021, 08:19:35 AM
Unless you did it already, try putting "California Rifle" in quotes?

Nevermind, I tried it and same search results . . .

BUT, continuing down the rabbit hole did come up with this site's reference:
http://grrw.org/the-heyday-of-the-hawken/
"... but more closely resembled a Dimick or a California rifle of the 1850-60's. ..."
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Niederlander on March 09, 2021, 12:11:46 PM
I read that same article!  Good stuff, but not really what I was looking for.
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Tsalagidave on March 09, 2021, 06:22:25 PM
Gazlay's San Francisco Business Directory (1861) listed John Skinner as the sole agent in San Francisco for Du Pont. It is described as crystal-grain to be sold in 5-lb. cans (6 per case)

The Oregon Board of Statistics (1870) priced 1-lb. of California Rifle Powder at 55 cents.

Montague's Illinois & Missouri Directory (1854-55) has an ad by the Enfield Powder Co. listed the following gunpowder options:

* California Rifle Powder
* Sea Sporting Powder
* Prairie Shooting Powder
* American Eagle Powder
* Blasting Powder
* Safety Fuse Powder


From what I can gather a "California Rifle" is a generalization for a plains rifle commonly carried upon the Southern Routes into California.  While I think that the "Hawkin" is often over-represented at events, there is still testimony of it as described by Ruxton in his book on Life in the Far West. (*Dale, here is an example of a brass-mounted Hawken's Rifle) :


"La Bonte, on his arrival at St. Louis, found himself one day in no less a place than this ; and here he made acquaintance with
an old trapper about to start for the mountains in a few days, to hunt on the head waters of Platte and Green River. With this
man he resolved to start, and, having still some hundred dollars in cash, he immediately set about equipping himself for the expedition. To effect this, he first of all visited the gun-store of Hawken, whose rifles are renowned in the mountains, and exchanged his own piece, which was of very small bore, for a regular mountain rifle.
This was of very heavy metal, carrying about thirty-two balls to the pound (.530), stocked to the muzzle, and mounted with brass, its only ornament being a buffalo bull, looking exceedingly ferocious, which was not very artistically engraved upon the trap in the stock. Here, too, he laid in a few pounds of powder and lead, and all the necessaries for a long hunt."

-Life in the Far West, Geo. F. Ruxton (1849)



Randolph Marcy gave this account of a preferred rifle for traveling westward.


"The rifles that are manufactured in the Eastern States are designed for small game or target practice, and are, for the most part, of small calibre, carrying from about 80 to 100 round balls to the pound (about .36-.39 cal.). While it is admitted that these missiles, when fired with great accuracy through the vitals of a deer, will bring him to the ground, yet it is contended that if they only penetrate the fleshy parts of the animal, or even pass through the entrails, they are often insufficient to stop him ; Whereas, if a deer be wounded with a large ball, he will bleed much more freely, and will sooner become exhausted.

I have always been much more successful with a large-calibred rifle than With a small one ; and I am of the opinion that a gauge admitting about 32 round balls to the pound (.530 cal.)is the most efficient, not only for deer-shooting, but for all the other large game quadrupeds found upon our continent.

A hunting rifle should not be shorter in the barrel than 30 inches (I prefer 34 inches), as this length insures a good line of sight, and gives a desirable balance to the gun when brought to the shoulder. A shorter barrel may throw the ball with as much accuracy, but it is more easily thrown out of the proper line of direction, and does not allow sufficient interval between the front and back sights. The weight of metal in the barrel is a consideration of importance, but will depend somewhat upon the physical powers of the individual. A heavy barrel recoils less than a light one, and, consequently, throws the projectile with more precision; but a delicate man can not carry a very heavy rifle upon his shoulder all day without too great a tax upon his powers of endurance. Some of our stout and hardy frontiermen, like the Swiss mountaineers, carry a rifle of twenty pounds' weight, but this I deem unnecessarily large. A rifle weighing entire from 10 1/2 to 12 pounds is, in my judgment, heavy enough for hunting purposes. It does not recoil perceptibly when properly charged, and is not cumbersome for men of ordinary physique."

-The Prairie Traveler (1859-61)

This is a good discussion. I'd really like to see other sources that members of the group have come up with. I don't believe that the descriptions I have given here are the only qualifiers for what a "California Rifle" would be. I would like to see more descriptions.

-Dave



[/list]
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Niederlander on March 09, 2021, 08:33:42 PM
According to The Plains Rifle, the Hawken shop did a lot of business rebuilding existing rifles brought to them by settlers and anyone else going west.  They tended to get shortened, and re-bored to whatever the outer dimensions of the barrel would allow.  They would also give the rifle a general going over to make them as reliable as possible.  I'd bet they were a LOT more common than what we consider Plains Rifles.
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Tsalagidave on March 10, 2021, 01:40:59 AM
I agree. Either that or other eastern brands that simply followed the pattern. I think of G. W. Kendall during the Texan Santa Fe Expedition of 1842 when he carried a Dickson rifle which at the time was a well-known brand of muzzle-loaders manufactured in Louisville, Kentucky. It was described as “short but heavy-barreled” and of .59 caliber (24 balls to the pound).

-Dave
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Niederlander on March 10, 2021, 06:48:33 AM
Totally agree.  Not sure how we'd ever prove it, though.
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Tsalagidave on March 10, 2021, 09:48:33 AM
There is plenty of accounts out there pard. We'll put it together eventually.

-Dave
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Gabriel Law on March 10, 2021, 11:52:46 AM
Here's an article I saved from a gun rag from the 70's.

Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Ol Gabe on March 11, 2021, 11:28:20 PM
All, enjoy these threads immensely!
Just a passing thought on this one: my cousin in Northern CA who checks in once every 10 years or so, has a M/L half-stock. It is 'old' he says, and has GOLCHER imprinted on the lock. He claims it has been in his possession forever, gifted to him many years ago by a fellow worker at P&G where they both worked. He also said it was called a 'California Gun' because of the GOLCHER lock.
It has been years, over a decade or two, since I talked to him about it. He has no way of taking pics, is in his 80's and not interested in much of any of this banter. Ah, well. I hope to be able to get it for family safekeeping sometime in the future.
Is this any help in the above search?
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
ncows925olgabe@gmail.com
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Niederlander on March 12, 2021, 05:28:14 AM
It would sure be nice to see!  I'd never heard of the California/Golcher connection, either.  Interesting!
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: LonesomePigeon on March 12, 2021, 07:27:45 AM
I believe there was a prolific gun maker in Marysville, CA. I forget his name but if I remember it I will post.

I also have an article somewhere of a man in California who hunted otters with a rifle who said he prefered a large caliber Hawken rifle for the 200 yard head shots required.
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Jack Wagon on March 12, 2021, 10:32:54 AM
Here is an interesting article about the California Bear Rifle.  Jw   https://www.historynet.com/california-bear-guns-helped-exterminate-grizzly.htm
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Niederlander on March 12, 2021, 03:18:28 PM
Good article!
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: LongWalker on March 12, 2021, 04:53:42 PM
I saw a rifle marked "Great Western Gun Works" and "The California Rifle" at a gun show maybe 15-20 years ago.  The barrel also had a (mostly worn away) mark for some hardware store.  Great Western Gun Works was operated out of Pittsburgh by J.H. Hohnston.  Company was in business post Civil War to maybe 1925 as a wholesaler and retailer of sporting goods.  Their rifles tended to be rather plain, quality was mediocre-to-OK.   

The one I saw was ~.48-50 caliber, barrel maybe 32" long.  Halfstock, looked like a late Missouri or Ohio squirrel rifle.  Back action lock, set triggers, brass mounts.  It was very similar to other rifles I've seen marked for GWGW, so I figured it was the equivalent of the hardware store guns from the first half of the 20th century. 
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Tsalagidave on March 12, 2021, 09:53:42 PM
Very cool. Thanks for the article Gabriel. I learned a lot from it. I was surprised to see it was just a .36.  Barrel looks heavy so I bet it can pack a punch against the small deer, black bears, mountain lions, and small game.

I am glad to just see pictures of a documented California-made gun.

-Dave
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: LongWalker on March 14, 2021, 01:45:45 AM
Sorry, took a while to remember where I saw this.  This is an example of a rifle made for--and marked for--the California trade.  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30033.0 (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30033.0)
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Niederlander on March 14, 2021, 11:27:31 AM
LOVE that inscription!  Can't really argue with it being a California rifle!
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Tsalagidave on March 23, 2021, 01:26:44 PM
I'm learning from this too. So what I am seeing is that a California Rifle is a western pattern, similar to a St. Louis gun with a short (compared to eastern long rifles) but heavy barrel in .36 to about .54 in caliber. They can either be made for the California market or they could have actually been made in the state by craftsmen who had come and set up shop during the Gold Rush.

I have had the privilege of learning so much about our muzzle-loading hobby over the years but I'd really like to know more about this topic. The more articles and leads, on the California Rifle, the better.

Thanks

-Dave
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Crooked River Bob on October 03, 2021, 09:41:57 PM
Thank you very much to LongWalker for posting the link to the "California Rifle" shown on the ALR forum.  I had missed that one!  I believe the maker's name may be incorrectly spelled on that ALR post, though.  I think it was more likely John Wurfflein, who was a prolific Philadelphia gunsmith in the mid-19th century.  The photo that apparently showed the barrel inscription does not show in the images I see in the link. There is another example of his work with a little more about him here:  Lot 287: John Wurfflein Rifle (https://www.oldwestevents.com/highlights/tag/John+J.+Wurfflein) Anyway, we do know Wurfflein shipped a great many rifles west, especially to California, and called at least some of them "California" rifles.  I didn't know they were marked as such, though.

Dang!  I wish I could figure out how to post pictures on this forum!  Anyway...

Tryon, another Philadelphia maker, was also sending a lot of rifles west, and all of the gun manufacturers were in stiff competition.  The California trade was booming.  The St. Louis riflesmiths did not want to miss out.

There was an enigmatic ad placed in the Missouri Republican January 20, 1855 by William S. Hawken and Tristam Campbell offering, among other things, "Mountain and California rifles made to order, and repairing done at the shortest notice."  People have wondered exactly what those California rifles were for many years.  Note that the term, "Plains Rifle," is believed to have been coined by collectors in the mid-20th century.  The Hawken brothers called their iconic heavy-barreled, iron mounted arms "Mountain Rifles."  Charles E. Hanson addressed this in The Hawken Rifle:  Its Place In History on page 42, along with a complete transcription of the Hawken & Campbell advertisement and some speculation about California rifles.

This interesting S. Hawken rifle surfaced a few years ago, and sold at auction:  Brass Mounted S. Hawken Rifle (https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/53073-6-402/)  I think this rifle is likely a Hawken "California Rifle."  I don't want to generalize from a sample of one rifle, but what I'm seeing here is a very plain, heavy, brass-mounted half stock.  It differs from the Hawken "Mountain Rifles" in that it is mounted in brass, and it has a single barrel key, instead of two.  It does have a patent breech with the classic Hawken "snail," but it looks like a solid patent breech to me, i.e. it is not hooked.  I think the brass hardware was more expensive than iron, but the single barrel key and the solid patent breech are money-saving features.  I think they built this rifle, and probably others similar to it, to compete with Wurfflein, Tryon, and others cashing in on the California and emigrant market. 

One feature that gets our attention is the triggerguard on the brass-mounted Hawken rifle.  Most modern folks will say it looks like a T/C Hawken guard, and it sort of does.. kind of...  Others will say it looks like a Dimick guard, which it does, but if you really cast a wide net in your search, you'll find a lot of mid-19th century rifles with that type of guard.  By that time, there were a number of riflemakers actually in California, and a lot of California dealers "importing" rifles from the east.  This style of triggerguard was very much in style at that time.  There was a terrific book published in 1977, entitled California Gunsmiths 1846-1900, by Lawrence Shelton.  He shows a lot of percussion muzzle-loaders by California builders, and a great many of them use that type of triggerguard.

There is a short, full-stocked rifle by Henry Leman shown on page 231 in Garavaglia & Worman's Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 which is marked on the barrel JOSH M. BROWN & CO. IMPROVED PATTERN BEAR RIFLE SAN FRANCISCO CAL..  This resembles Leman's "Indian rifles" in many respects, but is has a full-sized patchbox and double set triggers.  It has a heavy barrel in .58 caliber.  California was full of big game in those days, including the famous grizzlies.  I don't think this Leman rifle would have been consistent with Hawken & Campbell or Wurfflein's idea of a "California rifle," but it does suggest that hunting rifles in larger calibers may have been desirable in the Golden State at that time.

So, what is a "California rifle"?  Limiting the discussion to 19th century muzzle-loaders, it could obviously refer to rifles made in California.  However, more generally, I think this term could have been applied to a distinct style of rifle from the middle of the century.  Probably in a larger caliber, half stocked, and very likely mounted in brass or even German silver instead of iron.  Any one of us, myself included, would see one of these and probably call it a "Plains Rifle."  However, Hawken & Campbell distinguished "Mountain Rifles" from "California Rifles," and this is the best I can come up with by way of explanation.

Best regards,

Crooked River Bob
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: LongWalker on November 28, 2021, 07:57:05 PM
There's an original California rifle for sale here:  https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/a-j-plate-plains-rifle-original.139469/  Rifle was made by Slotter & Co in Philadelphia, and is marked for A. J. Plate in San Francisco. 

Folks, after I bought the Leman I cross-posted here, it is someone else's turn! 
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Niederlander on November 28, 2021, 10:12:03 PM
I'm learning more all the time!  One thing that seems obvious to me is the tremendous VARIETY of features on rifles of that period.  Not surprising when you consider they were all handmade, by probably hundreds of different 'smiths. 
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: LongWalker on November 26, 2022, 01:32:11 PM
A bit of thread necromancy here!

There is an original Slotter-made rifle marked for A. J. Plate in San Francisco for sale here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/a-j-plate-plains-rifle-original.139469/#post-2194886 (https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/a-j-plate-plains-rifle-original.139469/#post-2194886)

Per description, it is in shooting condition.  Price is $2k, trades considered.  Might be worth a look if anyone is interested in a California rifle!
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on November 28, 2022, 10:09:35 AM
That is one cool rifle!  And not a bad price!
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: nativeshootist on December 21, 2022, 11:23:25 PM
Track of The Wolf has a california rifle for sale. looks pretty good.
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Tsalagidave on January 12, 2023, 12:30:21 PM
With all this considered, I agree with the article that Jack Wagon provided.  It reinforces what I suspected, which is that it would be more of a plains type half-stock rifle that is ideal for killing large grizzly bears. Barrel length would be about 32 inches, give or take either way. It is either big-bored like a typical plains rifle for buffalo, or it could have a stouter, heavier barrel to accommodate a smaller .40-.45 ball with a much heavier powder load just like the American target rifles used by snipers during the American Civil War. Polygonal bullets on smaller loads? No, I believe that was a feature pioneered for the Whitworth rifle, but if anyone in the group knows more about it, please share. I don't know as much about the Whitworth and its hexagonal bullets as I ought to.

-Dave
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: greyhawk on January 13, 2023, 02:21:39 AM
Totally agree.  Not sure how we'd ever prove it, though.

I reckon a good part of your proof is sitting in the racks in that museum in Chadron
 
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Jack Wagon on January 13, 2023, 01:42:37 PM
A couple of interesting books on this topic. As Crooked River mentioned, California Gunsmiths 1846-1900 has loads of pictures and info. Another is Frank Bekeart Goldrush Gunsmith, not much on his guns but and interesting read on the trials of getting to and surviving in early California. His gun shop still stands today and is considered the oldest surviving building in Coloma, Ca.  Jw
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on February 23, 2023, 12:14:12 PM
Here's a link to a thread over on Bushcraftusa forum in the Traditional Muzzleloaders Group.  One of the guys just purchased a "California Rifle" from Track of the Wolf.  Interesting read!
https://bushcraftusa.com/forum/threads/half-stock-california-rifle-from-track-of-the-wolf.346087/#post-6420362
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Cap'n Redneck on February 24, 2023, 11:34:13 AM
@ Tsalagidave:  For info on the Whitworth and its users, I can recommend this book:
(the author is John Anderson Morrow)

https://www.berkeleymuseum.org/shop/confederate-whitworth-sharpshooters
Title: Re: California Rifle?
Post by: Tsalagidave on February 24, 2023, 11:53:49 PM
This is a good one Cap'n. Thanks for sharing.

-Dave