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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Uberti, Pietta and other SAA Clones => Topic started by: sack peterson on June 12, 2012, 07:36:39 PM

Title: Clone "build" types
Post by: sack peterson on June 12, 2012, 07:36:39 PM
This is a great new section that you fellows put together.  Its fodder for great discussions.

I was thinking, I believe I have identified all the clone builds.  My list is as follows, in rough chronological order:

Great Western
JPSauer
Geroco / Herbert Schmidt centerfire
Jager
Uberti
Armi San Marco
Weirauch
Ruger
USFA
Pietta
Taurus
STI
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Forty Rod on June 12, 2012, 07:38:25 PM
AWA and the new AWA USA...two different companies.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: sack peterson on June 12, 2012, 07:41:20 PM
First AWA is an Armi San Marco build, second is a Pietta build.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Hoof Hearted on June 13, 2012, 09:35:20 PM
This is a great new section that you fellows put together.  Its fodder for great discussions.

I was thinking, I believe I have identified all the clone builds.  My list is as follows, in rough chronological order:

Great Western
JPSauer
Geroco / Herbert Schmidt centerfire
Jager
Uberti
Armi San Marco
Weirauch
Ruger
USFA
Pietta


Sack

I think you have this list pretty close to "right on the money"

HH
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: pghrich on June 20, 2012, 05:22:36 PM
Hawes western marshal, i know they are not made anymore but there are plenty out there, i have one myself in 357 great trigger recessed cylinders nice grips, pghrich
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Hoof Hearted on June 20, 2012, 06:17:56 PM
Hawes western marshal, i know they are not made anymore but there are plenty out there, i have one myself in 357 great trigger recessed cylinders nice grips, pghrich
I believe the Hawes is/was German built. Sauer maybe?
Hopefully Sack will see this and chime in...........
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: sack peterson on June 20, 2012, 07:00:08 PM
Exactly.  Hawes is a JP Sauer build.  That gun was an enormous success over the course of 20 years.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Gen Lew Wallace on June 27, 2012, 02:35:26 PM
Didn't Taurus make a model called "Gaucho"?
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: sack peterson on June 28, 2012, 05:48:34 AM
You're right!  I'm editing to add that.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Long Johns Wolf on June 28, 2012, 06:38:54 AM
Some more SAA clone makers:    
Beretta
Chaparral Arms
Great Gun s.r.o., Tvrdonice, Tschechien
STI International
Long Johns Wolf   
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Hoof Hearted on June 28, 2012, 07:32:09 AM
Beretta is Uberti and should be added as:

Uberti/Beretta

Chaparral did produce a SAA

STI in Texas also did produce a SAA

Long John,

Could you please provide some links or other info regarding:
Great Gun s.r.o., Tvrdonice, Tschechien


Regards, HH

Some more SAA clone makers:    
Beretta
Chaparral Arms
Great Gun s.r.o., Tvrdonice, Tschechien
STI International
Long Johns Wolf   

Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Long Johns Wolf on June 28, 2012, 08:17:34 AM
Here we go: www.greatgun.eu
They do mostly lever action rifles of Henry, Henry Transitional, Win 73 and 92 pattern, but irregularly produce small batches of SAAs (Colt 1873 pattern) as well. Been there last year, saw the pistols (and the rifles). High end quality stuff.
Long Johns Wolf
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: sack peterson on June 28, 2012, 10:18:52 AM
I overlooked STI.  I’ll add that.

My suspicion is that Chapparal’s is / was a private label for an Italian mfgd model we are already familiar with.  Next, we could do a list of private labels themselves.

You’d have to tell me more about the other one.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Old Doc on June 29, 2012, 10:16:05 PM
AWA and the new AWA USA...two different companies.
Funny, they have the same phone number.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Coffinmaker on July 18, 2012, 04:24:43 PM

AWA and the "new" AWA USA are/were two separate companies.  AWA went bust following several law suits.  Richard Simpson started AWA USA a bit later but I believe in the same facility.  AWA USA guns are Not, to my knowledge, Pietta based.  Someone else was making his frames.
I haven't been able to contact them for some time ans don't know if AWA USA is still in business.

Coffinmaker
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Hoof Hearted on July 18, 2012, 05:04:53 PM
AWA and the "new" AWA USA are/were two separate companies.  AWA went bust following several law suits.  Richard Simpson started AWA USA a bit later but I believe in the same facility.  AWA USA guns are Not, to my knowledge, Pietta based.  Someone else was making his frames.
I haven't been able to contact them for some time ans don't know if AWA USA is still in business.

Coffinmaker

These were originally ASM built clones. I'm not real sure what AWA USA did after the "decline" of ASM but the "PEACEKEEPER" moniker on the barrel (one of their models) had a lot to do with their undoing :-[

HH
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Old Doc on July 18, 2012, 05:38:13 PM
These were originally ASM built clones. I'm not real sure what AWA USA did after the "decline" of ASM but the "PEACEKEEPER" moniker on the barrel (one of their models) had a lot to do with their undoing :-[

HH
My memory of all this is kind of hazy but at some point I believe AWA actually bought Armi San Marco. I know there was a big flap over production problems on the pump action rifle.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Old Doc on July 18, 2012, 05:44:38 PM
These were originally ASM built clones. I'm not real sure what AWA USA did after the "decline" of ASM but the "PEACEKEEPER" moniker on the barrel (one of their models) had a lot to do with their undoing :-[

HH
Someone forgot that Colt once made a .357 revolver named the "Peacekeeper" and hence had rights to the name. That and the fact that those black plastic grips with the horse on them looked just a little too much like Colts' grip. Neither one of those might have been an issue if the gun did not look quality-wise more like a 2nd generation Colt, than the Colt of the period did.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Hoof Hearted on July 18, 2012, 07:18:34 PM
I guess this is as good a place as any to DISCUSS this ( I emphasized the word discuss here 'cause I don't want to have to deal with any attacks or insults between forum members or towards vendors over this).........

What Old Doc has said is correct and adds to what I posted. Except.........I don't think AWA bought ASM. I know a lot of the history about ASM through the period that Dave Anderson was having them make parts for his AFF "conversions", then ASM started building those conversions and selling them to CVA, Cimarron and others........Of course there were also issues with ASM and their quailty control at EMF eventually adding to or leading to Walt there going to the Pietta and them AWA using ASM to produce their line of SAA Clones. The way I understand it was AWA had the Colt Copyright infringemant issues (as metioned by myself and Old Doc above) and then made the unfortunate decision to sell the Lightning Magazine Rifle. The rest is history, so to speak!

Kudos really should go out to Boyd Davis at EMF for his YEARS of modifications to the ASM clone in order to make it more "Colt like". If it wasn't for ASM's poor quality control (I have been told that MANY, MANY pistols did not meet inspection at EMF and were purportedly remarked and sold to other companies) we could have still had a source for inexpensive parts that were 100% interchangeable with Colts >:(
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Jamie on July 18, 2012, 07:39:32 PM
Obviously this is a loaded question, uh, so to speak ::) but I know where there's a "new" ASM Bisley 5.5 " barrel in 44-40 for $365.  Am I crazy to even consider it?  Colors are good, bluing looks good, but the grip fit is atrocious.  Gaps everywhere.  It was purchased by a nearby gunshop with a bunch of ASM and Uberti single action partial guns.  Some lacked backstraps, some lacked cylinders, and then again there were cylindered frames that lacked barrels.  For about $300 you might be able to make one out of two, but with New York registration laws, I'm standing off of that I think.  Anyway, the Bisley repo is complete.  Any thoughts?  If it isn't timed well, etc. what would a good tune up be, and how much of a rat hole would I be throwing my money down.  Again, any thoughts would be appreciated.  I'd like a 44-40 to go with my '73.
Jamie
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Old Doc on July 18, 2012, 08:00:07 PM


What Old Doc has said is correct and adds to what I posted. Except.........I don't think AWA bought ASM.

You sound far more informed on the subject than myself, however, I do remember reading in a review of one of their guns, the part about then buying ASM. As we all know, just because you read it, don't make it right

Doc
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Hoof Hearted on July 18, 2012, 08:19:51 PM
Obviously this is a loaded question, uh, so to speak ::) but I know where there's a "new" ASM Bisley 5.5 " barrel in 44-40 for $365.  Am I crazy to even consider it?  Colors are good, bluing looks good, but the grip fit is atrocious.  Gaps everywhere.  It was purchased by a nearby gunshop with a bunch of ASM and Uberti single action partial guns.  Some lacked backstraps, some lacked cylinders, and then again there were cylindered frames that lacked barrels.  For about $300 you might be able to make one out of two, but with New York registration laws, I'm standing off of that I think.  Anyway, the Bisley repo is complete.  Any thoughts?  If it isn't timed well, etc. what would a good tune up be, and how much of a rat hole would I be throwing my money down.  Again, any thoughts would be appreciated.  I'd like a 44-40 to go with my '73.
Jamie
Jamie

I see a fair number of pistols for repair and of the ASM's MOST of the SAA Clones work pretty well with very few problems (most of the issues were in the "conversions" of the 1851 and 1861). Realize that there are always exceptions and that the pistols you are referring to may have been "left overs" or "problem childs" but if you carefully check it out and all seems OK you are probably fine. Internal parts are not too difficult as Eddie Janis' parts for the 1st and 2nd gen will work.

HH
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Old Doc on July 18, 2012, 08:49:13 PM
You sound far more informed on the subject than myself, however, I do remember reading in a review of one of their guns, the part about then buying ASM. As we all know, just because you read it, don't make it right

Doc

Quote: "Back in the latter 1990's, C.O.W.S. (Classic Old West Styles), makers of authentic Old West clothing and gun leather, headquartered in El Paso, Tx, decided to branch out into the replica gun market; hence was born American Western Arms. Not entirely satisfied with what was being produced in Italy, AWA acquired the Italian gun manufacturing firm of Armi San Marco for its own, so quality and ultimate design could be absolutely controlled. "
Guns of The Old West-Summer 2001, page 77.

I didn't say it was true. Just said I read it somewhere. So how come I can't remember what I had for breakfast. Wife says she's going to get me on one of those "hoarders" shows.
Doc
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Hoof Hearted on July 18, 2012, 08:59:34 PM
Well there ya go :o

Although still not so sure what acquired meant. I bet Boyd at EMF could provide some insight here.
Might just mean that they signed some sort of exclusive contract.

Based on the "Chaparral" venture and how it was vehemetly denied that ASM was the manufacturer of the parts by some and "behind closed doors" it was said that it was the "son" of ASM's owner by others and all the rest of the issues, we may never know the truth.

But with all that said I think it is safe to say that ASM and AWA are both ASM built just differing levels of quality!

Regards, HH
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: sail32 on July 19, 2012, 10:20:12 AM
You listed Pietta and Great Western as separate clones. My Pietta is stamped “GREAT WESTERN II “, on the top of the barrel.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Hoof Hearted on July 19, 2012, 11:02:59 AM
I suppose we should explain these things as they come up ;)

The Great Western was an early version marketed by EMF. When they stopped selling ASM pistols and went to Pietta manufactured ones. Boyd had Pietta roll mark his model as the "Great Western II" (I suppose as a tribute to the first SAA clone he sold).

HH
You listed Pietta and Great Western as separate clones. My Pietta is stamped “GREAT WESTERN II “, on the top of the barrel.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Abilene on July 19, 2012, 01:19:36 PM
Hoof,
I'm a little confused.  Is there more than one Walt at EMF?  The owner is Boyd (U.S. Grant) and the Walt at EMF I know about used to be with TTN until Cimarron took them over.  Was he at EMF before TTN?  Thanks.

And to Old Doc, I certainly don't know for sure about COWS and ASM, but I know that GOTW has made many a glaring error over the years  :)
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Hoof Hearted on July 19, 2012, 01:40:46 PM
Old age wins again!

I was doing a lot of talking with Walt (the one you are referring to) about the Pepperbox conversion lately and know better but used Walt in place of Boyd :P
Walt was at the "Blank Guns" part of EMF and joined EMF after they split the blank guns portion off.

I have fixed my posts above.

HH
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Abilene on July 19, 2012, 01:55:41 PM
I know what you mean about old age.  Ar at least I, uh... what were we talking about?   ;D
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Texas John Ringo on July 19, 2012, 05:57:48 PM
The Real Great Western SA
http://www.gundigest.com/gun-collecting-firearm-collecting/the-first-colt-clone
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Jamie on July 19, 2012, 07:49:53 PM
Thanks for the input.  I might just have to pick it up.  If I do, I'll let you know how it comes out.  Again, thanks for responding on the Bisley question!
Jamie
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Coffinmaker on July 23, 2012, 01:23:17 PM

Adding a bit of information, I have been able to rebuild the lock works of several ASM SA clones using Pietta parts.  Some fitting required.  I still haven't found parts for the ASM 1851/1861 Conversions.  By the way, anybody have a pair of barrel assemblies for ASM, .38 Cal, 7 1/2 inch barrel??? Ime rebuilding two more ASM conversions.

Coffinmaker
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Silent Joe on July 30, 2012, 12:36:56 PM
Beside my Colt SAA .45 I have a Western Marshal 38/357 from J.P.Sauer. It is a great gun. See pics.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Hoof Hearted on August 14, 2012, 09:43:04 PM
Adding a bit of information, I have been able to rebuild the lock works of several ASM SA clones using Pietta parts.  Some fitting required.  I still haven't found parts for the ASM 1851/1861 Conversions.  By the way, anybody have a pair of barrel assemblies for ASM, .38 Cal, 7 1/2 inch barrel??? Ime rebuilding two more ASM conversions.

Coffinmaker

Yea......good luck :-\

I too use parts (frequently) from the other Italian makers to repair the ASM's. But it is a challenge and a bit of a compromise most of the time!

HH
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Coffinmaker on August 21, 2012, 11:01:51 PM

Based on recent information, we can add USFA to the list of "use to be."   Another one bites the dust.

Coffinmaker
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Major 2 on August 22, 2012, 03:23:34 AM
Would you concider adding "Colt" themselves to the clone list ?

The short lived Colt "Cowboy" was made under licence to Colt,  in Germany
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: sack peterson on August 22, 2012, 08:16:43 PM
I think that is a legit distinction and example.  I see it as any frame cast or forged as a reproduction of the original SAA.

Where those really made overseas?  No wonder they were such a flop.

Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on August 22, 2012, 10:11:59 PM
The Colt Cowboy frame was made in Czechoslovakia.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: old tired eyes on September 07, 2012, 02:06:28 PM
I failed to notice KBI. I have a pair of Liberty II's in 44-40.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: sack peterson on September 07, 2012, 05:31:53 PM
KBI Liberty was built by Armi San Marco and then Pietta.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Abilene on September 12, 2012, 09:32:31 PM
Just thought of another.  Texas Longhorn Arms.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Harley Starr on September 12, 2012, 11:37:16 PM
American Western Arms Ultimate 1873.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: sack peterson on September 13, 2012, 08:44:06 AM
TLA is a unique beast.  As a scholarly matter, I’d say it’s not really a clone, but a post modern, perfected single action.  I do understand that its cylinder frame blank was cast by Pine Tree Casting, IE, Ruger.

Just thinking in terms of frames and components, AWA ultimate is a Pietta build.  They are rightfully said to be made in America, but Pietta renders the raw components.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: CraigC on September 24, 2012, 11:11:08 AM
IMHO, if you're gonna count TLA, then you have to count every other single action revolver manufacturer. They made some fixed sight guns that looked like Colt SAA's but as far as I know, all of Grover's guns were on a large, .44Mag sized frame. They were also mirror image guns with the loading gate and ejector on the wrong side.  ;)

Same for the big J.P. Sauer and Herter's sixguns. Similar but larger. Different enough to NOT consider them a Colt SAA replica.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 20, 2016, 11:20:31 AM
I would add the clones made by the basque manufacturers from the 1881's until well into the XX century, until the 1920's.

So I would add:


-Larra?aga, Garate y Compa?ia

-Garate y Compa?iaa (sucessors).

-Garate e Hijos (Garate and son).

-Hermanos Quintana (a Mexican gun dealer importing Colts 1873 clones and later making them in their own factory in Spain).

-Anitua y  Charola.

-Orbea Hermanos y Compa?ia

You can see some of them here:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/30-colt-1.pdf


http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/31-colt-2.pdf


they even patented later a simplified  version of the COLT SAA, with one piece frame and two screws for mechanism, known as "Sistema COLT´S (reformado)".


Some of these revolvers were of good quality, others so so. Orbea at that time was the largest factory making pistols in SPAIN, so not all of the mentioned above were small manufacturers.


There were other brands in both Spain and Belgium making and selling these revolvers in Mexico and South America, so it was not the italians the firts ones making clones of the Colt SAA in the XX century ouside  the USA.


In the late XIX century and the begining of the XX there was a big market in Mexico for firearms of affordable prices, so I would assume that many revolvers that we see in photos of the Mexican Revolution, could, in fact, not be Colts, but european clones of basque and Belgian origin.

The market was big in Argentina also, thought this was no place for the Colt SAA, but fot the Smith clones.

With a certain dismay, I have seen some respected authors writing reference  books  about  Colt clones where they fail to recognize Garates,  Orbeas, etc as spanish commercial revolvers, labelling them as "of unknown origin", despite being clearly marked with Orbea or Garate Hermanos logo, or with spanish and  basque legends in the  barrels,  which shows that even expert authors  can make mistakes when it comes to investigate guns made in a foreign non english speaking country.

many revolvers deliberately included  barrels legends in English or Spanish, mentioning Colt or Winchester cartridges, in order to fool potential buyers into thinking that they were buying the original product. Most users would not speak english but would surely recognize  the words "Colt" or " Winchester".

all the best
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Abilene on February 20, 2016, 05:26:05 PM
Very interesting!  Thanks for the info and the links.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 20, 2016, 06:49:24 PM
you are welcome.

we must admit that it is really difficult to investigate about foreign guns when the info avaible is not in english...be it spanish gun makers, or russian, balkanic, etc...that is why not much has been written about these pre 1920´s clones and they remain unknown for most european and american gun enthusiasts and collectors, except in  Belgium and Spain.

 let me add that I have been told by a very important collector, here in SPAIN, who lived many years in Mexico, of several local gunsmiths in the Mexican area of PUEBLA, who made copies of american guns,  mainly of  the Colt 1873 and the  Winchesters 92 rifle, for the domestic market there, until the 1960´s.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Virginia Gentleman on February 23, 2017, 09:05:17 PM
Many licensed and unlicensed copies of Colts, Winchesters and others were made all around the World.  The patents on the Colt SAA ran out long ago, so thankfully we have European manufacturers making them now.
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Abilene on February 23, 2017, 09:38:58 PM
I guess we can now add Standard to the clone list (yeah, Coffinmaker, I said "clone"  :D )
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Coffinmaker on February 24, 2017, 12:05:50 PM
Gadzooks but I hate that wurd  :(

Coffinmaker
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: llanerosolitario on April 26, 2017, 04:22:41 AM
The Argentinian Bisonte Revolver, made by Establecimientos Venturini, in Buenos Aires, Argentina, in 357 mg and 22 lr.

http://www.tirito.com.ar/Venta/ArmasCortas/html/Bisonte_CL13.htm


Revolver Forastero, in 22 lr, also made in Argentina


http://www.fullaventura.com/foro/viewtopic.php?t=6950
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: willy on December 21, 2017, 08:55:24 PM
Allen Firearms
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Abilene on December 21, 2017, 11:18:26 PM
Allen Firearms

Those were Ubertis
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Wolfman0125 on January 24, 2022, 02:23:12 AM
New Outlaw Legacy .45
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Major 2 on January 24, 2022, 07:32:32 AM
New Outlaw Legacy .45

Pietta made
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: Coffinmaker on January 24, 2022, 09:15:14 AM

NECROMANCY!!  NECROMANCY!!  NECROMANCY!!  run fer yer lives,  Necromancer at work!!

The bones of this thread were dry and brittle a LUSTRUM ago!!  Put it back in it's grave!!!
Title: Re: Clone "build" types
Post by: The Pathfinder on January 24, 2022, 10:45:28 AM
Well, unless you can come up with a 'new' manufacturer. Then by all means let us know. ;D