Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1876 => Topic started by: Grizzly Adams on May 09, 2014, 06:22:10 PM
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At the suggestion of Postman63, I am setting stickies for load data. If you have pet loads for the 45/75 WCF, please share them here. As always, use caution when posting and when using data posted on this and any other forum. :)
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Well Griz, After trying almost 20 different powders and loads, I have a couple here that I like as does my rifle. The first one is one that I found in Ken Waters book and modified it a wee bit by adding a tuft of Kapok to the load. This one shoots very well and gives an average velocity of 1398 fps. I use a Hoch Custom bullet cast to 350 grains and a 16:1 alloy. It has a nice mild recoil. The other one that I enjoy, and get a "KICK" out of it is 76.0 grains of Swiss 1½ Black Powder. This load generates about 23 ft lbs of recoil. BUT--it is damn accurate in my rifle that is. It generates about 1440 fps. These are the two loads that I load the most of and have the most fun with. Hope this generates some interest.
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350 Grn. Lazercast bullet. Shockey gold powder compressed load. 63 Grains measured with a Black Powder measure, not by weight, but by volume. clean burning and plenty of smoke so it looks great. 4 inch groups at 100 yards with my old eyes and Ubertis standard sights. 1350 to 1410 ft. per sec. at the muzzle.
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I have no intention of hot rodding my '76. I have '86s to do that. But saw an article from 1/2010 on the Uberti web site that quoted 29K psi as a max for these newer 1876 guns. :o
http://www.uberti.com/sites/default/files/originals/product-review-pdfs/centennial-jan2010gunsammo.pdf
Which would take the new '76 into the Class 2 rifle territory.
That ought to get one up there with a 300 and 350gr bullet with the right smokeless. Anyone tried H4831, 4831SC or H4895?
I've had good luck with all three in big cases.
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Yahoody:
I have tried H-4831 and 4831-SC. My best results were with using the old style 4831 and the best was using the old style H-4831. I did get some unburned powder grains in the cases after firing which only amounted to about 0.27grains. The bullet that I use is a "Hoch" custom 350 grain flat nose and is cast in an alloy of 16:1 which is one that I got off box of original factory ammo. To go on further, I also used a cardboard wad of 0.044" thickness along with CCI 250 mag primers. In a 10 shot string run through my chrono I got an average velocity of 1502 fps and a SD of 21.1fps. The free recoil was 20 foot pounds. The cases that I used were fire-formed WWW348 brass.
I did not get this type of performance out of the other 4831 powders. The other load that I really like is 22.0 grains of 2400 powder and a tuft of kapok over the powder and with the same bullet. As far as using 4895--I have had no need to try this as I like what I got. Hope this helps. One other thing--my rifle has the larger "Uberti" chamber. And, in closing, I feel-like what you said about "hot-rodding" this rifle. I, also have '86's to play with.
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Thanks Larry. I am curious to see who my gun likes the slow burning smokeless loads. Figured someone else had already BTDT.
While poking around today I saw this, "Accurate Arms states the new version of the 1876 can handle pressures up to 27,000psi. "
Anyone seen that reference from Accurate Arms?
Beginning to think the new '76 could be a REALLY fun rifle with the right smokeless.
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I don't know where they get those pressures but I--for one would not attempt it. My loads--on a Crowley computer run about 18-19K and that is enough for this old buzzard. Keep the fps down to 1200-1500 and there should never be a problem. It would not be wise to try to "hot-rod" one of these rifle. A person might wind up with a face full of splinters. Even tho these new '76's are made of stronger stuff than the old ones, they still are based on the original actions and therefore are/could be prone to problems.
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"It would not be wise to try to "hot-rod" one of these rifle."
Agreed 100% And no intention of doing so. The real question is what is the rifle easily capable of? No reason to hot rod a '76 near max but also no reason IMO to let mid range performance lag behind with 100+ year old loading data either.
Trap door loads are one level. Low pressure '86 performance would be a big jump for the '76 if it is both safe and sane.
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I have an NWMP repro '76, and a Browning '86SRC. I only use BP in the first, and smokeless in the other. Even then, I have no reason to run them over BP Express mvs of about 1400 fps. If you want a buffalo gun, get one. If you want to take a cape buffalo, get a .458Win Mag. Within their design ranges, they are already quite capable of downing any North American game. (Well, Maybe Kodiaks?)
The point in using historical reproductions is to get a feel for living the period. (Besides health and safety plus some creature comforts.) There isn't much point in extending their power levels just because you might be able to.
That is my humble opinion. :) You are graciously permitted to differ.
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Every one gets an opinion. You can shoot your gun in any manner they choose. Makes no matter to me if you want to shoot blanks or blow your gun up.
What I want to know is what is the design and metallurgy capable of in a modern '76. No more and no less.
Many, many reasons to own and shoot any gun.
"The point in using historical reproductions is to get a feel for living the period."
That reasoning might even be a tiny part of my own ownership, or not. Either way it doesn't have much to do with the knowledge of what the modern '76 is safely capable of however.
Load data here:
http://outlawswinchesters.jouwweb.nl/winchester-1876
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I love this quote, which should be included in the heading for this board;
The late William B. Ruger once said the Model 1876 was "Just a piece of wood and steel." Hesitating, he added, "But it's a damn elegant piece of wood and steel."
Yahoody; Did I notice in your linked article that the Chapparals should handle 28K psi? I came across an article once that described an amazing proof test that exceeded all expectations. Modify: I see that you quoted the passage on the other thread.
BTW; I try to stick with what I know by experience or from reading authoritative material, unless I so state. I will personally follow the biased opinion I stated above. And I am unanimous in that! ;)
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Chapparals? I look at them as a "kit gun". A set of parts you buy and then finish to make a real gun ;-)
This is the quote I find interesting.
"The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."
Being active in the gun industry at many levels the last 30 years I have seen so much ignorance represented as "fact" I make a point of checking the well know "facts" out myself. Beginning to think the "weak" '76 was a historical "fact" based in fiction.
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I have often heard that the 1876 action is a weak design, but the only first hand report on an 1876 blowing up was by Mike Ventura. It that case it was an original that was fired with a double load of smokeless powder. The rifle was a 45-75 and the action didn't fail the bottom of the chamber blew out where it is thinner because of the magazine tube.
My opinion is the action in the modern reproductions is stronger than most people believe. In my 45-60 I worked up some 300 grn. loads over 1800 fps. In my 1876 with the big Italian chamber in 45-75 I have exceeded 1900 fps. My guns can handle the hotter loads but my body doesn't like them much.
Silver Rings
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I'd love to see the new Uberti's tested with smokeless loads like Winchester did with black powder.
The action is stronger than a lot of people think, but it's still not nearly as strong as a modern action.
The real trouble is that despite what Winchester did for testing, smokeless powder can generate extreme pressures very switly by double charging and using a fast burning powder by mistake.
Even a Ruger #1 can be blown up with the wrong charge, might take C4 to do it, but I bet it could be done.
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The action is stronger than a lot of people think, but it's still not nearly as strong as a modern action.
.....Even a Ruger #1 can be blown up with the wrong charge, might take C4 to do it, but I bet it could be done.
We can blow up anything :) Not as strong as a modern action? That leaves a lot on the table. Not as strong as a '86 no question. Not as strong as a '98 Mauser of course. Lot happening in firearms design between 1860 and 1900. But I'd have to wonder if anyone has done any testing on the newest versions of the '73/'76.
Edit:
This from Uberti today via their tech support on the phone.:
"Our '76 is good with any powder/bullet combo that the pressure does not exceed 28,000 CUP."
Which is also typically the pressure limit of any black powder load data listed for any big bore cartridge.
Most loading manuals split the trap door and 1886 Winchester 45-70 loads by pressures. The Trapdoor max is listed as 25,000cup. Lyman's 49th Edition lists the '86 Winchester and Marlin '95 @ 28,000cup. The newest Marlin 1895 however gets listed else where @ 40,000cup. Just be sure at what data you are looking at when you start deciding on load data you want to use. Also a difference in what kind of pressures a 45-60 generate and a 45-75 generate everything else being equal. Smaller the case capacity the higher the pressures generally. Remember the longer the bullet the less case capacity you have and the higher the pressures. Easy to go from 24K to 40K in one slight error on judgment with a heavy bullet set too deep. Getting the right OAL on cartridges is a big deal in a '76. All the '76 cartridges were intentionally designed as light for caliber bullets. 350gr in the 45-70, 300gr in the 50-95.
HUGE difference between 28K and 40K in pressure. The Ruger #1 will take 50,000cup. 50K are true magnum pressures that will stick a bolt gun tight if exceeded or blow a lever gun apart.
Load them up...just be really careful when you do!
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I guess that is your answer right there. 8)
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I guess that is your answer right there. 8)
I do indeed. Only took a couple of days and a few phone calls to get past the party line of ""Our '76 is good with any powder/bullet combo that the pressure does not exceed 28,000 CUP."
Which is also typically the pressure limit of any black powder load data listed for any big bore cartridge.
Which would seem obvious but them you can only stuff so much BP in any of these cartridges. Problem solved by volume but it means nothing if you are shooting smokeless.
Most loading manuals split the trap door and 1886 Winchester 45-70 loads by pressures. The Trapdoor max is listed as 25,000cup. Lyman's 49th Edition lists the '86 Winchester and Marlin '95 @ 28,000cup.
This is the point that has not been made any where that I have seen. Winchester '86 loads by some manuals might be considered "safe" in the modern '76 by that information and definition.
Bigger the bore, generally less the pressure, everything else being equal. Not seen anyone mention that either.
The newest Marlin 1895 however gets listed else where @ 40,000cup. Just be sure at what data you are looking at when you start deciding on load data you want to use. Also a difference in what kind of pressures a 45-60 generate and a 45-75 generate everything else being equal. Smaller the case capacity the higher the pressures generally. Remember the longer the bullet the less case capacity you have and the higher the pressures. Easy to go from 24K to 40K in one slight error on judgment with a heavy bullet set too deep. Getting the right OAL on cartridges is a big deal in a '76. All the '76 cartridges were intentionally designed as light for caliber bullets. 350gr in the 45-70, 300gr in the 50-95.
Shooting Black is fun and historically correct. But no doubt many more modern '73s being shot with smokeless than BP. I 'll shoot BP in my '76 as well. But I'll put a lot more rounds down range with any firearm, Henry or '76 with smokeless. Figure most shooters will. Which is why this info needs to be public and easily accessible.
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Yahoody,
Thanks for the information.
Silver Rings
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Silver, I hope it helps the next guy. I wanted to thank you for all the info you, LarryO and others have added to the reloading data for the '76 as well. Your loading data for the 45-60 and 45-75 was a big help to me.
Me? I am still waiting for 45/75 brass so I made up some dummie 45/60s to cycle through my gun while I waited :)
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All of this begs the question of how most of us laymen w/out measuring devices measure pressure ??? As an old reloader once said to me "about the time you start seeing pressure, it may be too late."
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All of this begs the question of how most of us laymen w/out measuring devices measure pressure ?
You don't if you are smart. You use what the books suggest. Really hard to do with cartridges that aren't listed. 45/70 data would be a starting point. Some have mentioned a 1:1 ratio for the Trapdoor or low pressure '86 loads compared to 1876 loads. That 45/70 data should be on the low side for 300g and 350gr bullets in the bigger 45/75 case and should be on the high side for the smaller 45-60 case and a 300gr bullet.
Enough published data on smokeless powders and appropriate bullet weights is to make good choices.
All this is really interesting if you have played as much as I have with the '86 in 45 or 50 Alaskan.
.45 and .50 in the '76 are just the earlier and short versions of those wild cat rounds.
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So, after reading all this, I come to the conclusion that Group 1 (trapdoor) loadings for 45-70 are a good starting point to reload 45-75?
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Hobie was my online guru when I started;
http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.ca/2007/12/thoughts-on-reloading-1876-45-75.html
And here is the link to his NWMP carbine page, which has several smokeless loads;
http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.ca/2007/04/winchester-1876-src-nwmp-reproduction.html
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So, after reading all this, I come to the conclusion that Group 1 (trapdoor) loadings for 45-70 are a good starting point to reload 45-75?
In my opinion, if you are loading 300 grn. lead bullets in the 45-75, then trapdoor 45-70 loads for 300 grn. bullets would be a good starting point.
Silver Rings
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I am not a big fan of BP. Hobie's article was good but not very much new or in depth info there. Mind you I am not advocating hot rodding the newer and stronger 1876 Reproductions here. But where it is suggested nothing faster than 2400 and 100% powder loads I agree and suggest looking even farther. Nothing wrong with using Smokeless and easily duplicating the old BP velocities either in the new guns. I have no interest in duplicating BP loads or using fast burning smokeless powders to partially fill 45-75 cases and risk disaster.
IMR 4198 and 3031, H 4895 and 4831 all seem appropriate from what I see and other's experience. And all are much, much slower than 2400. And with the right powder you can have 100% of the case volume filled with bullet and powder. Just as the original cartridge design intended. Now we have new rifles made from modern ballistic quality steel and tight tolerances to finally see how capable the new 1876s are.
In Hornady's 9th Edition there are 146 powders listed. Fast to slow..#1 being the fastest burning. #146 the slowest
Bulleye is #2. Alliant 2400 is #46, 4198 #64, H 4198 #65, 3031 is 69, H 4895 #79, IMR 4320 # 95, H4831 #125, H4831SC #126, Pyrodex CTG #144.
The 45-75 is (the Uberti chamber makes it even closer) a short version of the .45 Alaskan wild cat. Which is .348 Win brass necked up to 45. .50 Alaskan is a .348 necked up to .50 cal. Both mimic the earlier '76 WCF loads. Difference is both are loaded hot with heavy for caliber bullets and high pressures in a 1886 or '71 Winchester. Loaded and shot lots of both. Way too hot for a '76 and not needed for most anything short of a big bear charge. ( even then factory .45 or .50 BP vel. would likely do just as well) Also loaded .505 in a Rigby case and a 505 Gibbs. 4320 and 4831 both work well with big cases and big bullets. And they seem to work pretty good in the 45-75. Nice that it is clearly impossible to double charge your '76 using the slowest of these powders.
Group below was shot today off a sand bag rest @ 50 yards using 58gr. of 4831SC with a 350gr lead Oregon trail bullet, magnum primers and a tight crimp on the groove. There is getting to be some recoil you might notice with my 20" gun. Gun and load clearly can shoot better than I can. Same load with a similar 300gr bullet was more fun to shoot but left some unburnt powder.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-voyB-X6bn94/VKNi1uf10BI/AAAAAAAAfA0/lvmp-9dVAuY/s1600/DSC00042.JPG)
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Good shooting. I run into the same problem with the unburnt powder grains. I weighted them and it comes to about 0.27 grains. All I do after a shot is fired, is to tip the rifle to barrel up and then those grains fall back into the case. No big deal but a good load.
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Thanks Larry. I had wondered about my chamber dimensions not knowing prior to the rifle purchase there was a Uberti 45-75 chamber.
I should have fire formed the brass before load with filler and pistol powder. But was simply too lazy and in too big of hurry to shoot the dang thing ;)
What I have that is noticeable is the little crinkles in the brass if there is some grains of powder left in the chamber from the previous round. Doesn't see to hurt anything other than the cosmetic appeal of my lovely new Jamison brass. If I swab the chamber prior to each round this doesn't happen. Heavier bullets get a better burn and doesn't happen with them either. Now I am on a search for a "fun" load to use with the 300 gr bullets that does burn fully every time.
I sure see the appeal of the rifle however.
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On all my testing with the different forms of 4831, The only weight of bullet I used was from my Hoch mold and cast at 350 grains. I can't address a lighter bullet. iI never had any of your "Crinkles" but that may be on account of the heavier bullet? In fact, I rather like that 4831 powder and have had no problems other than the few grains of powder. Were the neck smaller perhaps the unburned grains would not be evident as that stuff was designed for large capacity cases such as the 270/30-06/7mag etc. But I am happy with what I got.
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I never had any of your "Crinkles" but that may be on account of the heavier bullet? In fact, I rather like that 4831 powder and have had no problems other than the few grains of powder.
Ha, ha! Larry with 60g of 4831 I bet you never got any brass wrinkles ;D. Nice load btw! My brass wrinkles with the 300gr bullets might be a good indicator of just how low the pressure is with 58gr of 4831 since the cases aren't fully expanding. Also the 300 isn't touching the powder stack. Close but the 350 is better there. Which gives a better stack burn and more consistent pressure. The cases are much cleaner and better/more fully formed (and more unpleasant to shoot) with the 350s.
I am just guessing here as the dents in the brass seem like the shape of individual grains of 4831 powder look like. I don't actually see any evidence of unburnt powder past something like you have mentioned. Tiny, tiny amounts if any.
Love the BOOM and smoke of the 4831 though. Sounds like a real big bore rifle through my muffs.
Side note coming home from the range at sunset yesterday I jumped a small heard of Elk crossing the entry road. No doubt in my mind the rifle and cartridge are capable. Man was I joneing to use that 45-75 :o
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I just dug up my test run on this load and On my Chronograph which is a PACT Pro chronograph. I got an average velocity of 1542.3. I used Jamison brass that is headstamped 45-75 and fire-formed to my Uberti chamber. I used a card over the powder and CCI250 magnum primers. I put on a good roll crimp. My bullet is, as I stated, a 350 grain bullet that was cast at an alloy of 16:1. I got that recipie from a box of original ammo. Works good in my rifle. Tried 20:1 and it is too fussy for that. The rest of the statistics are: SD=16.4fps, CV=1.12%, Hi=1561fps Low=1507fps. Using a Powley computer, I got 18900psi which am not too sure of. Even the ol buck snorts when you pull the trigger, I find it to be a pretty good load. Hope all of this is of help.
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Thanks Larry. All good info. I have yet to pull out my PACT but will eventually.
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Great! Let me know how it all turns out.
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Shot 100 mixed rounds of 300 and 350 gr bullets today. Loads of 58gr up to 62gr (with the 300s) of 4831sc. Lighter 300 loads do leave some unburnt powder in the chamber that I thought) dings the brass when not cleared out but no untold issues past that. The dinged cases shoot smooth again when reloaded and fired at 60grs. The tiny bit of unburnt powder grains disappear and the brass is clean and smooth @ 60gr even with the 300gr bullet. Turns out that it is likely not unburnt powder according to my recent readings tonight. But simply a slow powder and not enough chamber pressure. Which is why the 350gr bullets and the heavier 60gr loads work so much better while keeping the gun and chamber clean because the brass and chamber seal upon firing.
Muzzle after one session of 100 rounds of Oregon Trail lead bullets.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pCRh87b7Nds/VKXsAWSDQ-I/AAAAAAAAfLg/cfzqh7U_LlY/s1600/DSC00065.JPG)
Even with 100 rounds down range today the gun (and my hands) are near spotless. Inside an elevator is as well. Wish my '73s would come out this clean!
Shot at distances of 100 to 200 yards. 100 and 150yds were easy hits on my 16" x 20 " gong off hand . Going back to 200 took some elevation consideration to get on target but once figured out and dialed in for the load, hits at 200' from a bench were regular as rain. At least till I got the gun pretty hot and my eyes started fading. (simple buckhorn and elevator with a 15.5" sight radius on a 20" barrel)
I found the '76 really quite pleasant and fun to shoot off the bench using a hasty rest built from my shooting bag, loading the rifle as a single shot. Easy and quick. What a grand gun to shoot! I like the toggle guns so much more for function and how the action works than the '86 and '92.
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Got my factory crimp die today, works like a charm. I asked Lee if they could make me a shell holder for my auto hand prime, they said sure, cost will $175. I said really? For a shell holder? Yep. I don't need one that bad.
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Try a shell holder for a 348 Winchester...that is what I am using on mine. Little tight with some of the brass but in general works great. I think it is #8?
cost is cheap...$3.00 or so
http://leeprecision.com/hand-priming-tool-shell-holder-set.html
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Got one, tried it, #8. Worked on a few. Brass will not fit into the old original round style Auto Prime, but will work in the newer Ergo style Primer. I do not like this new style of primer, it has an extra lifting shelf that is very unnecessary that seems to get clogged up regularly. I bought an extra #23 shell holder and had a guy at work mill off the bottom thinking that would be good for the auto prime, but still the dimension's are to thick, but can still use it one primer at a time. I can prime a lot that way for a lot less than $175.
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I just switch to an old RCBS "O" press and the LEE ram-prime. then I can use any shell holder.
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Dang it. Thought that would work.
I'm running my Jamison brass on a Dillon 550 with a 348 shell plate. Doing everything there but the powder drop.
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Just got my Uberti 1876 today! Looking for some medium velocity starter loads. Have Lee dies, Jamison brass, Oregon Trail Lasercast .459 350 grain bullets and a bunch of different powders - pyrodex, trail boss, etc but no 4831. Anybody worked on a trail boss loading?
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Ok, got some H4198 from a local source. I see Barnes' "Cartridges of the World" lists 24 grains of 4198 under a 350g bullet. I have the Oregon Trails lasercast 350 grainers. There seems to be a fair amount of conflicting data on the internet regarding both the load data (some going significantly higher in the 4198), the use of fillers/fiber wads or no fillers, and magnum or regular primers. If I could track down some real black powder I'd just fill it up to the base of the bullet + a tiny bit then load it up - but I can't seem to find real BP. Could somebody chime in with some suggestions? I mean somebody who has actually loaded and shot what they are recommending? ;) I'd really like to try this Uberti 1876 . . . .
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Sorry, can't help you on 4198. I am still not totally satisfied with 4831. So I will be loading 3031 and 4320 tonight and shooting it tomorrow.
H4198 seems pretty fast to me. But so it 2400 and people shoot that and seem happy with the results. :)
4895 seems to get used a lot as well with happy shooters.
Magnum rifle primers won't hurt anything and may help some with the big loads of powder. If you aren't loading a full case poke fillers seem reasonable to me just to keep the powder in position for a consistent burn.
,
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Sorry, can't help you on 4198. I am still not totally satisfied with 4831. So I will be loading 3031 and 4320 tonight and shooting it tomorrow.
H4198 seems pretty fast to me. But so it 2400 and people shoot that and seem happy with the results. :)
4895 seems to get used a lot as well with happy shooters.
Magnum rifle primers won't hurt anything and may help some with the big loads of powder. If you aren't loading a full case poke fillers seem reasonable to me just to keep the powder in position for a consistent burn.
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This will be my first loading - the gun is unfired. I had decided on magnum primers and finally read the chapter in Lyman 49 about load data - was confused as it was not in the real load tables so wasn't sure what people were talking about. ;-)
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Only had time today to load, then shoot, fifty rounds made up with IMR 4320. Used the 300gr and 350g Oregon Trail lead bullets on top of 50gr of 4320, with Winchester magnum rifle primers and a hard roll crimp. No excess case expansion, nice rounded primers, primer pockets are still tight and cases are just barely fully forming in the chamber. Accuracy is very good, mild recoil and smoke. Loaded about 95% (300gr bullet) and 98% (350gr bullet) likely by case volume. Just short of the bullet bases by 1/8" to 1/4". Have yet to chrono. Cases are now on the 6th reload and have yet to loose one of the Jamison 45/75 brass for any reason. And they have been taking a beating!
I like these two loads by my observations today. Not a totally full case by volume like the 4831sc. But enough to ensure proper ignition of the powder stack. Seemed to be easy shooting (physically) with no pressure signs, good accuracy and moderate recoil. No unburnt powder in the chamber like 4831sc (and the resulting dinged cases after firing) and the cases are just barely fully formed in the chamber with 50grs of 4320. Best load I have used to date and seems to shoot 1/2" high POA @ 50 yards in my lowest notch. Perfect for my use.
Below: 15 fast shots on the left with the 300gr Oregon Trail bullet and 50gr of IMR 4320 @ 50 yards. Five from the bench on the right with the 350gr Oregon Trail bullet over 50gr. of IMR 4320, again @ 50 yards'. On a decent day in good light I suspect the bench group could be cut in half.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-otGPXg_Qs3w/VLteKSx0q-I/AAAAAAAAfYk/uooEw7hqppM/s1600/DSC00154.JPG)
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pretty good shooting- is that w/ the standard buckhorn, or do you have a tang sight?
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Thanks. Buckhorn and black post on a 20" barrel so 15.5" of sight radius. Hence the white targets. But I do shoot iron sights a lot, which helps.
Compared to the pistol caliber lever guns I find the '76 pretty difficult to shoot well for some reason. Same sights really, and a good trigger on this gun. But gun is heavier and the recoil more. The deep (er) crescent butt makes it hard to get a consistent shoulder mount for me compared to others that are similar I think. Those are my current excuses anyway. So I am trying lighter loads and a new butt cuff (not that I like them cosmetically) to see if I can live up to the gun's potential.
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Well, that's better than I can do :) If it had been me shooting that group on the left, I'd figure my barrel was slightly tilted between shots. I don't figure I'll stand down range and let you shoot at me, anyways ;)
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Mr. Yahoody,
Thanks for posting the results on the IMR4320 loads. If you get a chance to run them across a chronograph, would be interested in the results. IMR4320 is a favorite powder of mine in 3 cartridges, 220 Swift, 6mm Remington and 7x57mm Mauser. Haven't tried it in the 45-75, been sticking with the AA5744 due to some limited information in the Lyman reloading manual. What would be nice is if the Lyman folks would follow up with some additional testing, including pressure tests for the 76 cartridges using additional powders like 4320. Sent them an email thanking for the information published to date and asking for just such a set of expanded tests, like the other listings in regular rifle loading section. The reply said they would "pass the request along". I am not holding my breath, but sure am interested in the use of 4320, I have had such good results with it in more modern bottle neck cartridges. Course I admit to not being very adventurous outside of published data. Thanks again for sharing the adventures, looking forward to hearing more!!
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Hello Mr. Beans,
re: IMR 4320?
I have a small book called "40 years with the 45-70" that I had forgotten about. Had it at least 25 years myself. It was published by Wolfe in 1989. Anyway a lot of info there of shooting the 45/70 with 4320 which if I remember correctly was why I bought some 4320 for my 45/70s bitd. As some may have expected/realised I have been using load data from the 45-70 Trap door and lighter lever gun loads as data worth checking out in my 45-75.
Seems 4831 and 4831sc need a little help with ignition. Everyone seems to have problems with 4831 and the unburnt power in the straight walled cases. Same problem in the 45-75. That big old bottle neck case isn't the best mate for 4831. It is just too slow IMO. That issue and what it was doing to the next round of brass finally became too much for me. Matthews is the author of the "40 year" book and suggested using a duplex load of 50gr of 4831 on top of 5 gr of Unique. Duplex loads use to be fairly common with BP and early smokeless. Along with many a blown up gun. Frankly, I aint THAT brave!
Matthews also seems to really like 3031 in the 45-70. Which I'd bet makes it a good candidate for the 45-75.
My next adventure is going to be H4895. 4895 is some where in between on the burn rate chart of the 4831 and 3031. And I have lots of it. There has gotta be a sweet spot in there some where! We'll see if it betters my current 4320 performance tomorrow.
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Mr. Yahoody - again a round of thanks for posting the load data. I will give the load a try as I'm pretty sure I have the 4320 powder and know I have the 350 oregon lasercast bullets. The fairly full cases yet moderate recoil sound perfect. It sounds like you got a good load there. Please let us know how you do with the 3031.
Next question ;) Just picked up a pound of Fg (Fg, not FFg or FFFg) and was wondering about anybody's experience with it. I would NOT run a wad or card under the bullet, and do know that as long as the lasercast bullets are used the barrel would need to be cleaned every few shots. Have read some about duplex loading with various powders on the internet, and some is shown in various reloading manuals like Lyman 41 for the 45-70 (yes I know I have 45-75 and 350g bullets) with a 500g lead bullet with Fg and 5 grains of 4759 for fouling removal but don't like the idea of duplex loading. Will be casting my own bullets so will be able to use some BP specific lubes.
Anybody got any ideas?
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Space Commander:
I have real good luck with 76 grains of Swiss1½ BP. Also I have good luck with 22.0 grains of 2400 powder with a tuft of Kapok to keep the powder on the primer. My rifle has the Uberti chamber.
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Thanks for that load in 4320, going to try that now. I don't have Winchester Magnum primers but do have some CCI magnum's, going to try 10 of each.
Fixed the auto prime problem, turns out the hole in the shell holder had to be enlarged. Took the dremel and whittled a bit on the old style auto primer top rim and presto! works like a charm!
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I don't currently have an 1876 so I'm basing the following on my experiences with other calibers but I have had great results in various cartridges using Reloader 15 and Ross Seyfried years ago recommended it as THE powder for use in the big old British nitro express rounds in place of cordite or even the bp express rounds. Its burning rate is in the area of 4895 and 4350, it is easy to ignite, and has a proven track record in large, low pressure cases. Might be another good option if not using black.
I'm still sitting on the sidelines debating whether to get a .45-60 or .45-75 in nwmp carbine configuration. Memories of heavy loads in my Browning '86 src are pushing me towards the .45-60 and it should do nicely for range shooting and deer hunting but then again the .45-75 is the more authentic choice of my red coated fore fathers!
Thanks for the great forum and information.
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Queens Horseman; I have an NWMP carbine in .45-75 and have only fired it with gunpowder. Recoil is not objectionable. and suitable smokeless loads have been worked up by many to approximate BP mv's. My BP load hits right on to 300 yards with the "Spanish Meter" military style sight
IMHO the main reason to get a .45-60 is to use easier to find .45-70 cases to make suitable cases.
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I'm still sitting on the sidelines debating whether to get a .45-60 or .45-75 in nwmp carbine configuration. Memories of heavy loads in my Browning '86 src are pushing me towards the .45-60 and it should do nicely for range shooting and deer hunting but then again the .45-75 is the more authentic choice of my red coated fore fathers!
I have a 45-75 now. But I would really like to make up a round barrel, half mag 1876 in 40-60. Roosevelt's favorite '76 rifle. Brass would seem easy enough. The bullets not so much. Lighter bullets mean less recoil in general. As does less powder. And the 300g and 350s in the 45-75 seem to prove that. But easy to understand why a 40-60 in the 1876 with a short round barrel and button mag would quickly become a favorite rifle.
But I want to shoot the rifle a lot. Next one for me will likely be a 45-60 even though I'd really like to have a 40-60 for all the reasons mentioned. I'll just use 300g .45 bullets because every thing just seems so much easier all around.
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My rifle is a Uberti 1876 in 45/75 - have been shooting black so far - chinese fireworks powder in 4fa grade - we screened it out and calling the coarser screen FF - its close enough in burn rate to the European Wano FF but the chinese is dirty, cheap though, and with attention to cleaning is shooting ok - I paid serious money for this Uberti and been hesitant about smokeless loads in it. Lots of conflicting info around and a serious lack of pressure data. My thinking was to start with low pressure 45/70 info for the trapdoor - case size is a little smaller right ? (70 versus 75) OOOPS that is WRONG - I compared a fired winchester 45/70 case to my reformed 348 45/75 cases (on their third loading of Black) and very surprised to measure the 45/70 as 12 grains more capacity of blackpowder than the 45/75 - can only put this down to the thickness of 348 brass and those made cases are going to take several more loads to blow right out and fill the chamber - am curious if anybody else has compared case capacity this way? I was mighty surprised at what I found and that has got to have some effect on pressure along with the bottle neck versus straight case of the 45/70. How safe is this load data comparison?
cheers
Greyhawk
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again on the 45/75 loading
Winchesters famous blow up blurb has been quoted several times here as evidence of what the 1876 will stand ?
203 grains of powder and 1750 grains of lead "worked well" according to the write up ??
This gets quoted as the truth !!! Winchester was a shirt salesman and this was the era of the BS snake oil salesmen ! You fellers can believe it if you like - I also got a piece of range in Arizona with ocean frontage to sell - anybody interested.
cheers
Greyhawk
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I have a Chappy 1876 and they list 27,000 psi. Here is info on Uberti:
Uberti has an article on their web site that quoted 29,000 psi as a max for a new production 1876. And saw the resulting argument s about how that was unsafe according to the Internet "Experts" eye balling it. Saw another comment today that Accurate Powders quoted 27,000 PSI.
The low end Springfield loads for 300 grn bullets is a good place to start. If you are going to use heavier bullets, like 350 and 400 grns, then start a little lower because they reduce case capacity. My experience with both my 45-60 and 45-75 is they are stronger than people think.
Silver Rings
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You mean this from early Winchester records?
"The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."
Being active in the gun industry at many levels the last 30 years I have seen so much ignorance represented as "fact" I make a point of checking the well know "facts" out myself. Beginning to think the "weak" '76 was a historical "fact" based in fiction.
Knowing that a 1873 is now chambered for a 44 magnum and the resulting 36,000 PSI loads I think we are safe loading the 45/75 with smokeless. I agree with Silver Rings the modern 1876 is stronger than most think. And the fact as Silver springs has mentioned Uberti lists the gun (by an article on their web site) as capable of 29,000 PSI. Easy to stay under that with 300/350 gr smokelss loads I think.
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reply to Yahoody
yep thats the one - not trying to denigrate Winchester or Uberti we've been shooting cowboy guns for fun since 1965 but the info in that quote comes from a time when they were allowed to stretch the truth in the name of marketing, much more than we can today.
Some concrete pressure information from Uberti would be real helpful .
Like many others I was surprised when I first read the 44 magnum 1873 was in their catalogue - that upped the ante condsiderably.
Of course the factory ammunition only disclaimer thats standard would neutralise most insurance claims before they get started.
Going out to test a duplex load with 5gr 4227 under that chinese black - that might clean things up a bit - also moving up from my modified lee 350 grain pill to the 405 grain hollow base - gets one more lube groove that way and the Uberti seemed to like the heavier weight better on my first test .
Problem is I gotta shoot off fifty of the lighter bullet loads to get the cases back .. darn it that sounds like fun!
Uberti 1866 in 22lr, carbine 44/40, rifle 44/40, original Win 1973 in 38/40, Uberti 1876 in 45/75, winchester 1892 in 25/20 rifle,32/20 rifle,44/40 short rifle, Rossi 1892 carbine in 357 mag, Browning model 71 in 348,
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I have a Chappy 1876 and they list 27,000 psi. Here is info on Uberti:
Uberti has an article on their web site that quoted 29,000 psi as a max for a new production 1876. And saw the resulting argument s about how that was unsafe according to the Internet "Experts" eye balling it. Saw another comment today that Accurate Powders quoted 27,000 PSI.
The low end Springfield loads for 300 grn bullets is a good place to start. If you are going to use heavier bullets, like 350 and 400 grns, then start a little lower because they reduce case capacity. My experience with both my 45-60 and 45-75 is they are stronger than people think.
Silver Rings
Thanks for the links - I am being overly conservative with my 76 - I bent a brass frame 66 a long time ago - a 22 mag we were trying to pull down to clean - the butt wouldnt come away from the tangs and I gave the point of the comb a bit of a bump with the heel of my right hand to loosen it - yup - when we put it back together the bolt was binding a little in the frame - not smooth and slick anymore - fixed it - sold it - be careful next time .
If I can shoot a magazine full in this 76 without having to clean this gun to hit its ok - cant use a lube disc in the case under the 405 grain cuz the boolit base is already hangin a little bit down in the shoulder area . anyway its all fun figuring things out
Pressure ? Guys are shooting full case compressed loads of FFF Swiss - that stuff has got some grunt - maybe more than GoEx - it would have to be up in the low 20K range I reckon - we used to buy ungraphited 5FA GoEx in 25lb bags - beautiful clean powder but the cracker factory blew up and no more cheap GoEx came to Aus --- ahh for the good old days.
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"Some concrete pressure information from Uberti would be real helpful . "
Do you consider Uberti repeating 29,000psi on the company website misinformation or a simple over sight?
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"Some concrete pressure information from Uberti would be real helpful . "
Do you consider Uberti repeating 29,000psi on the company website misinformation or a simple over sight?
That'll do me fine - if Uberti wrote it -
its daytime here downunder I sposed to be workin - havent had time to dig it out yet - thats tonights project .
What would you guys think about 45 - 47 grains of Win 748 in this case ?- its on hand and I sold my 30/30 - charts list 52 grains for the 45/70 trapdoor - looks about nice in the case - just a little room under the boolit.
thanks
Greyhawk
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Has anybody found any reliable published and tested data for this other than what's in the latest Cartridges of the world (24grains 4198, 350g bullet) and the info for lighter bullets in the Lyman #49? Even extrapolating starting loads for the trapdoor 45-70 results in substantially higher loads . . . . Taking a 45-70 trapdoor loading for the 350g cast bullet
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I dont belive Uberties warenty covers Reloads full stop. Factory loads only. So what ever the factory loads do is were you stand or take a chance????
Black Powder is the way to go. ;D
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I dont belive Uberties warenty covers Reloads full stop. Factory loads only. So what ever the factory loads do is were you stand or take a chance????
Black Powder is the way to go. ;D
Doubt their warranty would cover your own black powder reload. There is basically no factory ammo. It's 2015. There is NO reason a safe smokeless load can't be developed. I'm aware of the burn rates, pressure curves, etc. Not attempting to "magnumize" the gun at all, just want a shootable smokeless load that doesn't smoke the sides of the cartridge casing.
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I've now shot (and chrono'ed some of each) several thousand rounds of 45-75 using 3 different smokeless powders more typically used in 45-70.
Within reason I don't see any problems with smokeless in these guns. Smokeless sure can make a clean burning gun/ammo with some humph behind a 300gr or 350gr bullet. Certainly more than I ever want to take advantage of or shoot for power/vel. Easy to get every bit the equal of the typical powder puff 300gr 45/70 factory loads. From what I have witnessed it isn't hurting the '76 action any either. I have no head space change from new and the gun's action continues to just get smoother with every range session.
I own 3 really nice '86s any one of which had been my favorite big bore. But even my scrappy and ugly little '76 is something to behold shooting. I can see why guys kept the '76 running long after the '86 came out. I suspect it was smokeless and the better cartridges that killed the '76 more so than the design effort.
No question the '76 was an old design...but then look how long the '73 stayed in production along with the '92. Anyone that has shot the '73 and '92 side by side will "get it " on the '76/'86 comparison. Distinct advantages to both designs depending on what your requirements were.
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I agree, What would be interesting to know is what they Proof them to. I only ever shoot for a group dont have a Chrono and look for signs of pressure.
Use nitro in my 76 45-60 and 86 45-70 no issues, have used Varget, 4759, 4198, no problems and good results. I dont no what they chrono, mild to shoot and hit were i want them to.
I think one can get to caught up with how fast a round is going and forget what you are realy after "A Group" at a set distance or distances.
That just me. I have done the same with my hunting rifles for twenty years.
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Howdy Spacecommander,
There is very little reloading data for the 45-75, so if you answer some questions I'll see if I can help.
Is your 45-75 the Winchester chambering or the Italian? If you don't know, when you shoot your gun does the brass come out looking like it did before firing or is the shoulder moved forward? If the shoulder is moved forward, you have the Italian chamber, which holds more powder but has a shorter neck.
What powder(s) do you have to reload with?
What are you planing to use the loads for? Hunting? Paper targets? Steel targets? Plinking?
What velocity are you looking to get?
Silver Rings
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Anybody using Varget? So far I'm playing with it again, cast 20-1 350 grain bullet, 40 grains of Varget yielded average velocity out of a Uberti NWMP at 1130FPS. Will bump it up to 41 grains and see what happens. The 40 grain load is accurate enough at 100 yards for deer hunting, and about as accurate as I can shoot with the current sights.
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I have used Varget with 300 gr bullets. Varget works OK but I had extreme spreads of over 100 fps. If you are looking for a 100 yd deer load a 350 grain bullet at 1100 fps should be fine. If you want higher velocity then you can try working up the loads some.
I've done some hot rodding of the 45-60 and 45-75 and found that finding accurate loads become more difficult to find and the recoil gets more painful.
Silver Rings
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Silver Rings:
Well I have to admit that I, too, have played alot with my 45-75 and have gone through alot of different loads and powders but to make a long story short, my rifle has the Uberti chamber and since it is blessed with that, it seems to like the 76 grain load of Swiss 1½ best and then 4831. It also likes 2400 but with a filler on top of the powder. The bullet that I use and have stated this before is a Hoch custom one that I cast with a 16:1 alloy that I make myself. It drops at a perfect 350 grains. Now I have to admit that my shooting days have been rather scarce since my heart started acting up but one of these days will go at it again. I don't know if any of this blather has helped anyone but got it said anyway.
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Well I bumped the charge up to 41 grains and this is what I got out of a 5 shot string.
1255fps high, 1118fps low, 1179fps average, 137fps extreme spread, 52 standard deviation.
Accuracy wasn't that great, but still plenty good enough for deer out to 100 yards. I did notice the POI was about 4" lower than the 40 grain charge.
I've tried trail boss, and was underwhelmed. I wish I could find a powder between trail boss and Varget.
So far the most accurate loads for me is 66 grains of 2F Swiss and the Lyman 350 grain bullet. However the Lyman is a single cavity iron mould and a PITA to cast with. It's better, when I first got it I didn't think I'd ever get it to cast decent boolits. Now about 9 out of 10 are good, instead of the other way when I first started using it.
For the smokeless loads I've been using an NOE 5 Cavity 350 grain mould. Make a very nice boolit, big metaplat and very crisp moulding. Unfortunately it doesn't cary enough lube for black powder shooting. I do OK if I run a bore snake wet with moose milk down the barrel after every magazine load. It would be good for hunting, but for range trips I have to carry supplies to keep the accuracy up. Would love for there to be a big lube design for this round.
I did try several other powders, 5744 showed promise, but I had one round that didn't ignite the powder, but did push the boolit into the barrel and out of the case. Made a nice mess with spilled powder. So far Varget seems to do the best for me, and I've got a big jug of it. One thing about it they suggest you crono any new batches of Varget as different batches are slightly hotter or cooler than others. Might have to bump up or down a grain or two to reach your target velocity.
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Guys- something that might help in the loading and pressure business, is to obtain Hodgdon's Annual Manual. Yes- it comes out every year. I bought the last one directly from Hodgdon by a simple phone call. As well, Richard Lee's handloading book might be of use.
Note Lee uses the same "any .45/70" data as his 11mm/.43 Mauser data as well, however the .43 Mauser has a 77gr. capacity and used 340gr. bullets. I have used this data in an original M71 Mauser (1876) that I rechambered to .450 Alaskan (97gr. case capacity). I chambered the rifle to .450 Alaskan so I could get good cases at the time. .43 Mauser brass was not available, however it is now- apparently, from Star Line. I load black powder level speeds using smokeless powder, my choice being H4895 with foam backer rod for filler. With the loads I am using, I get almost identical velocities as shown for the .45/70 - even though my case is MUCH larger. Same velocities means similar or same pressures, certainly nothing dangerous.
It is best to also use a chronograph with your load development.
In either of these books, you will have to extrapolate, but - good starting loads for .45/60 and .45/75 can be found in the Trapdoor Springfield data (HODGDON) using their starting loads as starting loads. The Hodgdon manuals are super as they list Hodgdon, IMR and WW powders- including Trail Boss in many ctgs. even the magnum modern rounds.
Note the pressures that can and are generated with Trail Boss. The might seem like go-pow pistol-type loads but many of them are in the 24,000PSI range, especially when dealing in the 100% loading density arena.
------------------------ DO NOT START WITH TOP END LOADS SHOWN FOR THE TRAPDOOR. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT USE DATA FOR -------------------------THE STRONGER ACTIONS IN REPRO ACTIONS OF LESS STRENGTH. The only rifle I can think of as possibly fitting the stronger bunch such as the Marlins, are the M92's and M86's. The MFG're should have the final word on that.
Note the pressures in the 15,000CUp to 16,000CUP range - THAT is where to start. For many of you, those velocities are about where you want to start and likely stop to obtain original black powder load levels. Yes - those smokeless loads develop LESS pressure than black powder loads do or did in the same cases, with the same bullets.
This data is very useful. Note that it takes a BIG change in capacity to make a difference in pressure and velocity delivered.
You cannot go wrong with what I have stated above.
Also- some might want to try jacketed bullets with black powder. Don't laugh. It works. My bro shot a moose with a 500gr. Hornady RN with his Sharps .45 3 1/4, loaded with 100gr. 2F and a whack of 1/10" wads to fill the space. It worked. In Australia, there is a rifle competition which allows jacketed bullets with black powder loads. Try it if you want - much better accuracy than with cast bullets and black powder, usually. Surprisingly enough, there is no fouling buildup as the jacketed bullet just pushes it out, each shot. Now, if you have a loose spot, it will build, I suspect, but do not know.
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I shot some H4895 today under 300 grain bullets. Trapdoor starting load called for 45 grains. Group was pretty good but LOTS of unburned powder with a Federal 210 primer. So bad that I ran a patch after each shot to get the unburned powder out of the barrel.
I shot a couple loaded with 3031 also just to see how the acted. A little unburned powder but not as bad. Didn't try for a group with this round since the sun was going down and in my eyes.
No pressure signs with either powder load and the brass looks perfect with no wrinkles. It was new Jamison brass, first loading.
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My rifle has the Uberti chamber and both it and I like that extra case capacity. In all my trials and whatnot, I have found that 76 grains of Swiss 1½, 4831 and 2400 seem to work the best. When I use the 2400, I put a tuft of Kapok on top of the powder. Alot of folks may frown on this method but I have never had any problems with it. Maybe I am superstious or something but I feel that my rifle is a very fussy ol girl and it seems that she likes these loads the best of all that I have tried. the only powder i have never tried is Varget but my son uses that in his .223 and is happy with it. That load of 2400, I got out of Ken Waters book on loads and whatnot. He also used the same load in his 45-60. He did not use any filler like I do but then again that is my choice not his. Anyway, these loads work for me and my rifle. I don't usually babel on like this so this is what I thought about when I read these notes.
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Cliff, the slower powders will leave a lo of unburned powder. In my opinion, filling the case or most of it with slow powder is just using powder for filler. 3031 is a faster powder and you need to use less of it but it burns more of the powder.
Silver Rings
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Thanks, I was thinking the powder was just too slow. I was using trapdoor recipes and thought I would try. The 3031 burned most of it but there was still traces of powder not completely burned.
The 4895 had a bunch of powder not burned at all, still it's original color.
I'm wondering if I should be using magnum primers.
Ultimately I want to shoot nothing but black powder but this new rifle was throwing 5 inch groups at 50 yards with the black powder loads so I thought I would try some smokeless.
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I think you ill find magnum primer will help some, but will still have a lot of unburned powder.
Silver Rings
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I do not have any loading data to offer but do have a question on bullets for the 45/75. I have resized 348 Win. brass and the best I can do for bullet diameter that will fit the case and still chamber is .457 (.457 bullets fit tight when chambering). I slugged the bore and get something more like .4585. The .457 bullets shoot about 3-4 inches at 30 yards. I have tried both 300 and 350 grain bullets. The 300s are commercial (not sure on the hardness) and the 350s were poured out of wheel weights. The neck thickness of the resized cases is quite thin, I think to thin to turn down. A friend suggested that I try some hollow base bullets. What size/weight bullets are you guys using? I used 24 grains of IMR 4198 for both bulllets.
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First off, I use a custom bullet made with my own alloy that is 16:1. The bore on my rifle is 0.458 and that is the size that my bullets are sized to to be sure. As far as the powders that I use are: 22.0 grains of 2400 with kapok on the powder and for black powder, I use 76 grains of Swiss 1½ as the rifle that I have has the Uberti larger chamber. Have never had any bad luck with either load. The brass that I use--started out with fire-formed 348 brass and then went to Jamison. I still use the 348 brass but in the mix of things, it don't seem to matter too much which one get shot. They all work pretty good.. Hope this helps.
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Thanks Larry01. Do you have any issues getting that .458 bullet in the case? Any issues with tight chambering?
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levers:
Nope. Can't say that I have. I just bell the cases a wee bit and then go ahead and seat the bullet. I have even had some luck with Hornady 350 grain jacketed soft points. They shoot good but are pretty spendy when compared to lead bullets. Don't know if this helps but it is about all that I can say.
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Larry01 I assume you are shooting an original Win. 1876? I load a lot of different old Win. calibers but am new to the 45/75. Must just be the chamber of my gun is tighter than yours. I was reading Cartridges of the World and see the 45/75 was listed as having a bullet with diameter of .454 and found that interesting as all of the data I have seen from reloaders, like you, are using .458 slugs. I'll keep working at it. Thanks again.
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Levers, just measured a few different 45/75wcf cartridges that are loaded with bullets cast from an original Winchester mold , and the bullets are on the + side of .458" as cast. The same bullets loaded into brass formed from 50/90 Sharps to 45/75wcf measure .011" neck thickness per side. Jammison brass that I have measure about the same + or minus a 10 th or two. The neck OD of a loaded cartridge with said bullet measures about .481" to .482" . These loaded 45/75 wcf cartridges feed and eject easy through my two original 3rd model 1876 Winchesters. They have a semi roll crimp and are loaded with an original Winchester tong tool. The are very accurate in the old rifles WITH bp.. How do these measurements stack-up with yours. By your sr# you have a early rifle , the early rifles I have measured seem to have tight chambers in the 45/75 and 45/60 . Do you have 5 groove rifling ? Good luck with getting the old rifle shooting . It is a Cool one. If I can help any way just give me a holler,,,,,,DT
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Hello all
Been shooting the heck out of my new Chaparral trying to find the best accuracy combination. My goal is a decent (6") 100 yd group. Using Lyman 457122 with a nose plug installed, I have tried 2f, IMR 4320 and 3031. All are offering a 12" pattern off the bench. I am wondering if the root cause could be the Chaparral short neck of the chamber/brass which allows too much of the bullet to be exposed in the tapered shoulder area, and on ignition a severe bump-obturation takes place (read deformation). Next the bullets flared base must be squeezed back down to bore diameter. What are the prevailing thoughts on this? Please weigh in.
KW.
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First off--you should be using 350 grain bullets as that is what the caliber was designed around. Then try 22.0 grains of 2400 rifle powder and 72 grains of Swiss 1½ black powder. My rifle has the larger chamber and I use 76 grains of Swiss 1½ and also the 72 grain load. Both, in my rifle, shoot very well as does that 22 grain load of 2400. There are a ton of different powders to try out before settling on one load. I know from my own diddling around, I came up with two or three that are great and fun to shoot but it does take a bit of perserverance to get to that point. The three that I have mentioned are what work best in MY rifle and I used just a "tuft" of kapok on the powder with the 2400 loading. If you want to play around, get yourself a can of OS(Old Style)4831 and try 53 or so grains. There will --or should be about 1-2 grains of unburnt powder in the barrel but it does toss them out there at around 1400fps or so. Anyway, don't forgetto use a 350 grain bullet. If you don't cast, you can get them from BACO which is where I used to get mine until I got a custom mold and with my homemade alloy(16:1) started making my own fodder. Hope all this info helps.
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larryo1
My Lyman 330 gr. mold with the blank hollow point pin installed weighs in from memory at 355 grains or so. Any more bullet weight would just make the projectile longer, meaning more unsupported bullet exposed in the neck taper, which is why I have not tried 400 grainers . You did not mention the groups at 100 yard you are achieving? Yes I could try 4831 next, as this journey is not over yet. A nice 50 yd group if possible is not useful to me much in Montana, where 100 yds is considered point blank. I also am going to try wheel weight alloy next, and even paper patch at some point. You are right about the unburnt smokeless powder.....plenty, mag primers only help a little. I have some original WRA 45-75 rounds and they certainly have a longer neck for complete bullet shank support.
regards
kw
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Well, I don't worry about too much unburnt powder. You will even get some unburnt BP if by putting out a sheet on the ground in front of where you are shooting and you can see the grains there.. My 100 yard groups are in about 6-8 inches but here again I don't worry too much about that. I do nearly all my testing at 25 yards as I use my chronograph on most of the loads that I test out. Besides, it ain't as far to walk as to 100 yards. My really good testing is done on my 200 yard range where I have a 10 inch square sheet of steel hanging on some chains. That way when that slug hits that piece of steel the clang is all I need to know if it is a hit or not. Besides, I am not or was not rather a long range hunter. In fact, my grandson got his first deer this fall at about 20 yards with a 7MM-08. My last deer(before my heart attacks stopped me) was at about 25 yards and that was done with my Marlin 45-70. I have dumped a few deer with the Sharps and the 45-90 way out but nothing yet with the 45-75. Maybe my son will do that one of these days as I doubt that I will ever do much more in the way of hunting. I imagine that from now on it will be my son who does all the trigger squeezing for me and I will watch and observe. Sorry but this is about all I can tell you for the time being.I have never tried any bullet that is over 350 grains. Haven't felt the need to play with those big boys. I have tried 300 grain and the 330 Gould bullets but never got the results that I get with my 350 grain bullets cast at 16:! alloy. That alloy I got off the back of a box of factory 45-75 ammo and have never changed except once I did go to 20:1 but did not get the same results as with my 16:1 alloy.
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larryo1
Could you post a picture of the 350 gr bullet you refer to from the custom mold? What make is it also.
thanks
kw
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KW:
The only thing that I can do is not to even try Photo bucket as, in the past, I have had a hard time to make it work for me so-if you would send me your e-mail address, I can send you all the stuff that you would be interested in. I hang my hat in Kalispell if you are interested. My handle is revehngng6@Yahoo.com.
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Don't want to pop anybodies bubble but has anyone had or is having any trouble getting Unique, 2400 or Bullseye? We can't seem to get any of those here in the Flathead and it also seems that stuff is scarce over in Spokane. I know this is not or has nothing to do with it but these are used in BP rifles and like in my '76, I use them especially 2400 from time to time. So I would like some comments about this "Shortage".
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Our local Gander Mountain had 3 lbs of Bullseye and about 10 1 lb bottles of Power Pistol on the shelf last week. Have not seen Unique in ages. Gun show next weekend has a booth loaded with powders, even had green and red dot last time around, and I picked up a lb of 2400 too. Just got to be at the right place at the right time I guess.
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Howdy Kwilliam,
I have a Chappy in 45-75 with the short neck also. I've done bunch of loads development for it. I put a Marble tang sight and a globe front sight on it and shoot off sand bags on a solid bench. I've tried 400 gr and 300 gr hard cast lead bullets with so so accuracy. I now use 300 gr gas check bullets and have obtained groups of 3" or less.
These loads are for modern reproduction 1876s with the short neck chamber only. These loads have not been pressure tested so use at your own risk.
300 grn GC 24.0 grns of 5744 av. vel 1253 fps group 4 rds in 1 1/4 " 5 rds in 2 3/4"
300 grn GC 50.0 grns H4831SC AV. Vel, 1033 fps group 5 rds in 4 1/2"
300 grn GC 33.0 grns 3031 av. vel. 1206 fps group 3 rds in 2", 5 rds in 4 1/2"
300 grn GC 35.0 grns 3031 av. vel. 1323 5 rds in 6 1/2"
All these loads except for H4831SC had polly filler.
I found loads that are 1200 fps or less are more likely to produce small groups.
Silver Rings
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Has anyone tried 400 grain bullets? I gather that they are too heavy and won't stabilize?
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At least in my Chappy 400 grn bullets work fine. The problem, which is made worst by the Italian chamber vs the original Win, is that the 400 grn bullets will extend in to the cartridge beyond the neck. I'm assuming this is the reason I could never get good groups. I have been able to create loads with 300 grn bullets that group about 1 1/2" at 100 yds.
I also have a Chappy in 45-60 and because of the straight case have been able to work up 1 1/2" loads with both 300 and 400 grain bullets.
Silver Rings
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Took Thumper out Saturday to try a few loads, this one being the better. 45.0 of H4831 SC, at 50 yards.
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/010046471428/media/53210614170/medium/1502404584/enhance)
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Took Thumper out Saturday to try a few loads, this one being the better. 45.0 of H4831 SC, at 50 yards.
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/010046471428/media/53210614170/medium/1502404584/enhance)
King
That group is about twice as good as it looks - either your eyes work like mine with iron sights or you getting some tube magazine dispersion (vertical) - its very nice side to side - my Uberti will do about the same with black - if I really work on my sight alignment I can get most of the vertical under control too - have not tried smokeless in mine - kind of "why bother" - it shoots nice with black, I get 1400fps or better (have cracked 1500 a couple of times with a 335 grain slug , and I enjoy handling my 76 to clean it - so really no point in smokeless! (for me) I use 65 to 68 grains of FF (homemade) - soft lead slug maybe 30 to 1 - using two Lee 405 HB molds that I have modified - 1) machined some off the top face till the meplat was safely bigger than a primer pocket - was not real excited about having a full magazine stacked in there nose to tail under recoil with nose to primer contact...2) made a new flat base plug that does away with the hollow base and also takes off the base band and one lube groove (for 335 grains) or just a flat base for 405 grains. My rifle shoots the 405 grain quite ok (maybe even prefers it a little) - using a simple lube of beeswax and neatsfoot oil - and I will give it one long blow after five shots - brass is fireformed 348 and I cut it short so I could crimp that LEE boolit properly for smokeless. Its a really cool lookin loaded round and an awesome rifle .
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King and all
One of my loaded BP rounds and the two Lee modified projectiles from my last post - notice I cut the brass some short - did that so I could crimp into the top of the last lube groove - did that cuz I did have intentions of loading smokeyless - - they tell me the road to hell is paved with good intentions ? - the smokeyless idea is gone out the window at this point - coulda woulda shoulda - cut them shells longer and crimped over the last drive band - mighta maybe praps been easier - but it works - the 405 grain pill just sticks a little of its butt down past the neck but it dont expose the lube groove - and it shoots nice. I really like the shape of the front end of these boolits and they got nice generous lube grooves without bein excessive - cheap mold and a bit of basic machining - the single cavity is a little slow but not so bad - easy on the wrist when casting is somethin I like about Lee molds .
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Took Thumper out Saturday to try a few loads, this one being the better. 45.0 of H4831 SC, at 50 yards.
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/010046471428/media/53210614170/medium/1502404584/enhance)
[/quote G
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Took Thumper out Saturday to try a few loads, this one being the better. 45.0 of H4831 SC, at 50 yards.
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/010046471428/media/53210614170/medium/1502404584/enhance)
Good shooting KM. What bullet were you shooting with that load? In my 45/75 the 350 gr. Win. bullet and the Lee 457-340F shoots great. Have shot 405gr. bullets of various kinds , they shot OK. The 350's seem to shoot better for me in my 45/75 wcf . ,,,DT
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Hey Dusty
Thought you may be interested in molds I am using for my Uberti '76 (45/75 blackpowder)
Have posted some of this before in another spot -
I took a LEE 459-405 HB mold - was a little leery of the roundish nose - outta the box the nose would fit into a primer pocket - yeah some guys shoot round nose boolits in tube mags and get away with it ok (get away with it being the operative phrase I reckon) - but a full magazine '76 theres a pound of loaded rounds plus the recoil - too late afterwards eh! --- anyway I milled some of the top flat of this mold just increasing the flat meplat of the boolit some until it was a safe size - then I made a new base plug from brass to take out the bottom driving band and lube groove - was intending to fit it properly but have been using it loose as in the pic - - have cast a few hundred that way and its no great problem - boolit from this mold drops at 335 grains - I do have the LEE 340 grain mold but my opinion it dont carry enough lube for Blackpowder - second mold is the same 405HB - top milled the same for a wider flat point - and just took the tit off the base plug to make it a flat base rather than HB - this goes neat at 405 grain and we got three nice lube grooves - both these I crimp right into the top of the forward grease groove - I have cut my brass to suit - wished I didnt do that but had plans at the time to shoot some smokeless. My rifle shoots the 405 grain quite nice - doesnt seem to be any preference. I get very close to 1500fps from that 335 grainer over 67 grains of BP - (roll yer own powder). At this stage cant really be bothered with smokeless. ----oh both those molds I drilled the hole in the sprue plate bigger.
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The bullets are Laser Cast 350 gr. FN. I have some 405's but haven't tried them in the 76 yet, been using them in the 86.
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King
I went back and re read these posts .....kinda been repeatin meself here :-[
your laser cast pills look ok - price is good - I would be lookin to buy without the lube because of my blackpowder thing but I bet they would do that if ya needed it - You guys are so lucky havin all these goodies available - downunder we pretty much need to shift for ourselves (such a small market we are) - I probably say stick with the 350grain load - it works - aint broke dont fix it - 405gr you will definitely notice a bit more recoil (not that it is bothersome at all just a nice friendly push along with the boom of blackpowder - good fun!) Ballistics charts say we up around 1600ftlbs energy with those 335 - 350 grain boolits so its a useful load - most things shot with it should stay shot. Anyway - glad you are enjoyin "thumper".
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Greyhawk your custom mould makes a good bullet . The larger grease grooves are very good as a BP. bullet. I think the reason I'm getting away with the Lee 340 and its smaller groove's is the fact that I shoot a few rounds and wipe . Being mostly a hunter the first shot from a clean cold barrel is what concerns me most . Just the other day one of the Bp. loads that I was testing would put it's first bullet clean bore on target just right. The next four shots without cleaning went into a small group 2-1/2 " 5 oclock from the first. So I settle for a load that puts all /most bullets into the same spot cold, hot , dirty,or clean. Note my 40/60 wcf and my 45/75 wcf are the most forgiving in this respect .,,,, DT
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Thanks for the info, fella's. I'm going to continue the search for the best load for Thumper. I'm not a black powder shooter for the most part, I did try some AAP when I first got it rifle and was not impressed with the accuracy at all. I don't cast myself, but I do have a Lyman lube/sizing machine, just don't know where to get black powder bullets without lube. Of course, truth be told, I haven't really looked either.
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Greyhawk your custom mould makes a good bullet . The larger grease grooves are very good as a BP. bullet. I think the reason I'm getting away with the Lee 340 and its smaller groove's is the fact that I shoot a few rounds and wipe . Being mostly a hunter the first shot from a clean cold barrel is what concerns me most . Just the other day one of the Bp. loads that I was testing would put it's first bullet clean bore on target just right. The next four shots without cleaning went into a small group 2-1/2 " 5 oclock from the first. So I settle for a load that puts all /most bullets into the same spot cold, hot , dirty,or clean. Note my 40/60 wcf and my 45/75 wcf are the most forgiving in this respect .,,,, DT
yup ! first one is the money shot hey - interesting how some guns will do this way easier than others -
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Have you thought about IMR4198? If you can't get Unique can you get Hodgdon's Universal? I haven't loaded .45-75, but IMR4198 works pretty well in a .45-60 original M'76. with a 300 gr bullet cast from Lyman #2 equivalent mix.
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I've had promising results with IMR4198 and my Accurate Molds 350 grain bullet, fired from my Uberti 45-75.
CC Griff
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I've had promising results with IMR4198 and my Accurate Molds 350 grain bullet, fired from my Uberti 45-75.
CC Griff
I have not felt the need to go there with smokeless - 1) velocity is good - getting 1480 - 1490fps with the 335grain boolit 2) accurracy is good - or at least as good or better than I can hold /see 3) re loading is easy (I have loaded a lot of Blackpowder shells over the years - its no big deal - maybe a little slower is all) 4) Roll yer own powder works out about $2 per pound 5) zero risk of blowin up my favourite shooter with a crook load of smokeless. The only possible downside to shootin black is the cleanup and I like handling this rifle anyway so that dont count for me - takes all of five minutes. In case you all think I am totally biased I just spent a couple hours working with a 25/303 and smokeless - 43.5 grains of 760 winchester powder / 75 grain hornady HP / 4 to 16 power scope - this is a workhorse for my son to cull feral pigs with - some places ya just cant use blackpowder !!!!.......would be kinda fun to get amongst a mob of them with that 45/75 one day too.......
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So here is my data:
Bullet: Lee Mould- 385 grain flat nose hollow base made of pure lead(! I was surprised too!) SPG lube used in grease grooves and in base cavity
Primer: Federal Magnum Primer # 215
Powder: 68.5 grains FFG GOEX brand
Frankly I thought I was using a 5 grain of 4759 for a duplex load in the base of the case . But it doesn't look like I was! It shoots pretty clean
Smokeless Loading:
Bullet: 350 grain Hardcast Round nose-flat point solid base ( I forget who the manufacturer is but probably got them from Dave Gullo at buffalo Arms Co.)
Primer: Federal (or any other ) Large Rifle 210 or M210 (match)
Powder: 23.5 grains of Accurate 5744
If I could figure out how to post photos I would post my targets from 50 yards. Both of these loadings shoot point of aim at 50 yards through my Uberti NWMP Carbine. I love it. But I did cheat and had the front sight raised to lower the point of impact to the point of aim.
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Frimath
thanks for posting
Your LEE 385 grain HB --? is that their 459 - 405 - HB with a bit of a nose job ? or have they another mold I missed ?
68.5 grains of FF Goex would be a heavy compression load for me - yeah it would work but haveta lean on it to make it fit -
I am using 348 winchester cases - they are extra tough n I think ya lose a few grains powder space - it takes four full blackpowder loads to blow em out to shape
I did try the duplex load you listed when I was using cheap and dirty chinese powder - it worked ok, but I preferred 4227as a starter - chrony was more consistent -- however the SR4759 was old ---- like at least forty years old - its a wonder it even lit off - since switching to my own powder - dont need the duplex for clean burn so I dont use it - one less thing to do .
My rifle seems to like the 405 grain boolit just as well as the lighter ones - I use that same LEE 459-405-HB - with a nose job and a flat base plug - I really like the shape of it and you get decent lube grooves without the craziness of some of the big lube designs.
Well thanks for posting -- one o these days I might even try your smokeyless load .
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What primer are you guys using with the smokeless and BP loads? Are Magnum primers better? I've tried some of the smokeless loads seen on this board and I'm getting some unburned powder with most of the smokeless loads.
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For my IMR 4198 loads, I'm using Winchester primers, which list use for standard or magnum loads, but I suspect are more on the standard side of the scale. I have no documentation of that, however. I have not had unburned powder to speak of.
CC Griff
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I found in most of my smokeless loads that I had unburned powder unless I used a filler. The amount of unburned powder varied depending on the type of powder and the load. Magnum primers would reduce the amount of unburned powder.
SR
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Anyone try any Hi Tek Coated bullets? I got some 300 grainers from Missouri Bullt Co. I'm gonna try.
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I powder coated my cast 330gr. Gould Express bullets. I pan lubed them and ran them through a Lee sizing die. They were loaded with a stout 75gr. of drop tubed, compressed Black Powder. They shot great and no bore leading.
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These powder coated and Gas Checked bullets work very well also. The mold used here is the SAECO 350gr #017 .458/.459 Flat Point. I've never experienced any leading with my coated or non-coated cast bullets with 16/1 lead to tin. My '76 isn't finicky about bullets or loads, though Black Powder is all I've ever used.
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These powder coated and Gas Checked bullets work very well also. The mold used here is the SAECO 350gr #017 .458/.459 Flat Point. I've never experienced any leading with my coated or non-coated cast bullets with 16/1 lead to tin. My '76 isn't finicky about bullets or loads, though Black Powder is all I've ever used.
ya shootin lipstick boolits in a 76 ????? ::) over black powder - wot colour is da smoke ????
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Was wondering the same thing , would make purple I thank ! ,,,,,DT
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Ha Ha! The smoke is plain old black powder smoke. "I don't always shoot powder coated bullets, but when I do I shoot red ones." They do kind of match the "Uberti red" stock though.
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Ha Ha! The smoke is plain old black powder smoke. "I don't always shoot powder coated bullets, but when I do I shoot red ones." They do kind of match the "Uberti red" stock though.
hmmmmph ! me an Dusty is seriously dissapointed about the lack of purple smoke !
Q - thats a fine lookin tang sight in yr picture - how far out have you shot with it and how did that Uberti do! I am seriously considering butchering . altering another LEE mold - take off the base band and one lube groove turns the 459-500-3R into a pointy nose two groove boolit right around 385 grains - single loaded of course ! I just have not shot my 76 past 100yards - happy to blame the operator for any misalignment of boolits at that distance - do you reckon 500yards is do able ???
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hmmmmph ! me an Dusty is seriously dissapointed about the lack of purple smoke !
Q - thats a fine lookin tang sight in yr picture - how far out have you shot with it and how did that Uberti do! I am seriously considering butchering . altering another LEE mold - take off the base band and one lube groove turns the 459-500-3R into a pointy nose two groove boolit right around 385 grains - single loaded of course ! I just have not shot my 76 past 100yards - happy to blame the operator for any misalignment of boolits at that distance - do you reckon 500yards is do able ???
Just couldnt help it could I ? heres a pic of whatI had in mind - it chambers just off the lands - bit of a trick gettin it back out after ya close the bolt - 65 grains of black and a milk carton wad ?????
Forgot the picture yesterday
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Surprisingly enough my next experimental 45-75 loading will be a paper patched bullet cast from a T. Ballard adjustable mold. Depending on the Uberti's throat length I want maximize the bullet length and only seat the bullet .080 into the case. It will be interesting to see the maximum bullet weight I can use. The T. Ballard mold at maximum length yields a 535gr. bullet. That one is a 1000 yard round in a 45-90. Yes, I believe accuracy at 500 yards is easily obtainable using the MVA Soule sight. I'm basing this speculation on the fact that my '76 groups better than my Sharps 1874 45-90 right now at 100 yards with my current loads. Note: I won't be trying any shooting at 1000 yards, I'm old and that's too much walking.
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You fellow's are getting me wound up , in the process of finishing up the wood on the Extra Heavy barrel 45/75 rebuild . Have a set of Winchester long range sights for it , and plan on testing what the old 45/75 can do past the 200yd. line . Interesting bullet you are thinking on with the modified mould Greyhawk . Pinback looking forward to hearing how the PP bullets work in the 45/75. I have some 350 gr. slicks that will patch up to bore size on my 45/75 , may give them a try in the new bore . Fine sight you have there .,,,,DT
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You fellow's are getting me wound up , in the process of finishing up the wood on the Extra Heavy barrel 45/75 rebuild . Have a set of Winchester long range sights for it , and plan on testing what the old 45/75 can do past the 200yd. line . Interesting bullet you are thinking on with the modified mould Greyhawk . Pinback looking forward to hearing how the PP bullets work in the 45/75. I have some 350 gr. slicks that will patch up to bore size on my 45/75 , may give them a try in the new bore . Fine sight you have there .,,,,DT
Dusty --Pinback
Tossing more ideas around here
This round is another option - my modified LEE (was 405 HB - now 405 Flatpoint - no hollow base) My rifle already seems to like this boolit - was at the reloading bench and put this one together as a what if ? - 70 grains of FFF , milk carton wad the boolit is seated a quarter inch in the case (my cases are a tad short = 1.790) this is a fired case not resized - I can push it in the chamber with my thumb - just feel it touch the lands - at the last ----- Pinback I never thought this would go in !!! that Uberti chamber is some roomy up front I think. Dusty I am looking at this one seriously as it has three lube grooves compared to two on the pointy boolit I was thinking about yesterday - will give away a bit of drop at 500yards but proly gonna shoot as flat as my 45/70 I think I go ahead and shoot five of each of these - see what happens. Only have a marbles tang sight and the original front on this rifle so that may be the limitation (hope so! can soon find something better)
Dusty - do you see any pressure problems with a 400grain boolit on the lands and 70 grains of FFF behind it ?
ps Pinback - base of case to front of driving band (lands contact) 2.150"
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Greyhawk , no doubt the 400 gr. and on the lands will increase pressure , my guess is , if your rifle is in good condition , should be no problem. I would not hesitate to shoot that load in my original rifles. With this new barreled 76 , I hope to find an accurate load that will perform out beyond 200 yd. The problem I have encountered with setting the bullet out enough to touch or be very close to the lands , is removing a live round . I'm sure you have discovered this already . Hope to begin testing the re- barreled 45/75 soon .,,,DT
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Greyhawk , no doubt the 400 gr. and on the lands will increase pressure , my guess is , if your rifle is in good condition , should be no problem. I would not hesitate to shoot that load in my original rifles. With this new barreled 76 , I hope to find an accurate load that will perform out beyond 200 yd. The problem I have encountered with setting the bullet out enough to touch or be very close to the lands , is removing a live round . I'm sure you have discovered this already . Hope to begin testing the re- barreled 45/75 soon .,,,DT
Yep ! still half the boolit in the chamber when shes open - I made a little brass chisel tihingy so I can kinda lift the extractor over the rim - dont like doin it though - otherwise - once you chamber one of those long ones ya kinda committed to pullin the trigger. Rifle is a new Uberti so should be no problems with pressure. Gonna shoot in the morning if the wind is down - 200yards I think - want to be sure there no tumbles happening - sights are a bit dodgy really but can deal with that if needed. If groups are ok will continue the trial .
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Greyhawk, I'd like to request video for this experiment.
Next gun show I go to I'm going to be looking for some Holy Black. Just got some unlubed 330 FN from Penn Bullets. I have a Lyman lubing/sizing press I bought many years ago for SPGing 44-40 bullets, haven't used it in years. Got to get a .459 lubeing die for it.
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Greyhawk, I'd like to request video for this experiment.
Next gun show I go to I'm going to be looking for some Holy Black. Just got some unlubed 330 FN from Penn Bullets. I have a Lyman lubing/sizing press I bought many years ago for SPGing 44-40 bullets, haven't used it in years. Got to get a .459 lubeing die for it.
ok guys - nothing to write home about here - only shot this at 100yards
excuses first 1) was a bit slow getting to this and a bit of tricky crosswind came up - down ----
2) I struggle these days with vertical sight alignment - memory dont help - I walked up to the target between pairs of shots - can see that on the left hand target
I shot on each target alternately - pointy boolit on the left one and flatnose on the right one
Load for both was 69 grains of homebrew powder, droptubed, milk carton wad, compression die, boolit seated to depth but not crimped - pics of loaded rounds are above in previous posts - pointy boolit is a whisker off the lands - flatnose is touching .
flatnose boolit target group is unimpressive 4 shots two inches deep and four or better side to side with the fifth up another three inches - can pretty much do that with that boolit loaded normally - did I weigh check those boolits - no ---- 407 grains but the handful I checked now had a few 5 to 6 grains lighter .
Pointy boolit target has posibilities I think - doesnt measure any better but I bet with a tunnel front sight and a circle insert I could put those two groups on top of each other and the side to side is half wind half my eyes - I think that needs further attention. Nothing went sideways ! so thats a positive
As far as the mechanicals go - no big deal loading - I cock the hammer properly before I open the bolt cuz you short stroking it a little to load - do not want the hammer following the bolt home as ya close it - before going out to shoot I checked the ammo by chambering - just leave the lifter down - bolt open - put em in by hand - push it home wid yr thumb - use a ramrod down the tube to push it back out - gently - dont wanna push the rim under the extractor else ya gotta extricate that - once ya close the bolt - shoot it!! The load and fire part was easier than I thought would be. I need to get a decent tunnel front sight with a set of inserts before I can figure this out any further. pics below
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Good report Greyhawk , with your loading ability and a target style sight , I would bet you tighten that group a bunch . Do you fellows lighten your trigger pull. On a couple of my 76 rifles I install a very light trigger return spring and tune the mainspring as light as possible . Makes trigger control much better . May not make much difference , but one thing I do when shooting long range or ( best accuracy) may be a better term . When the rifle is in battery and just before I get on the trigger I slide the firing pin forward against the primer with my thumb about 3/16" , in other words take the slack out of the firing pin system . I also pay close attention to the firing pin retractor fit and firing pin & bolt fit . This may be just a mental thing with me but its part of my mental checks before the shot , I feel it helps . My Extra Heavy 76 is in the white and will be tested before taking back down for metal finish . The wood has its first few coats of linseed oil and Winchester red stain mix. A side note making the fore arm for the Extra Heavy barrel 76 was one of the hardest wood working jobs I have undertaken , I spent hrs. on it That thing is thin , it's not a wonder the old one was so damaged , the but stock was old hat . Look forward to testing and contributing my results with this one .,,,,,DT
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Good report Greyhawk , with your loading ability and a target style sight , I would bet you tighten that group a bunch . Do you fellows lighten your trigger pull. On a couple of my 76 rifles I install a very light trigger return spring and tune the mainspring as light as possible . Makes trigger control much better . May not make much difference , but one thing I do when shooting long range or ( best accuracy) may be a better term . When the rifle is in battery and just before I get on the trigger I slide the firing pin forward against the primer with my thumb about 3/16" , in other words take the slack out of the firing pin system . I also pay close attention to the firing pin retractor fit and firing pin & bolt fit . This may be just a mental thing with me but its part of my mental checks before the shot , I feel it helps . My Extra Heavy 76 is in the white and will be tested before taking back down for metal finish . The wood has its first few coats of linseed oil and Winchester red stain mix. A side note making the fore arm for the Extra Heavy barrel 76 was one of the hardest wood working jobs I have undertaken , I spent hrs. on it That thing is thin , it's not a wonder the old one was so damaged , the but stock was old hat . Look forward to testing and contributing my results with this one .,,,,,DT
Dusty
Thanks for the tips - yeah I lightened the trigger off - took the lever safety latch/ trigger spring out entirely - and slacked off the mainspring tension screw underneath - had it nice too but then the mainspring worked its way out of the retaining notch at the back - I have worked on that but in the meantime put a bit more tension on the spring and trigger pull was a bit heavy for my liking yesterday. My 76 is a Uberti repro and firing pin is some kind of lawyer inspired rebounding affair so no slack there at all before the hammer drops -
How do you make those forends - that is a PITA by hand - have made a couple for 92's - yup one for a heavy barrel - wood is about a sixteenth alongside the barrel - my problem has always been getting the hole for the magazine tube done - I tried different ways of boring this - always ended up with it tight one end - sloppy the other end -
I finally got the gear for that - you have a mill - I ordered a couple of tungsten carbide ball cutters off Ebay and also a 45 degree cutter - have only had a practice run so far - run a straight mill cutter down first - go about half depth of the magazine tube - use a mill cutter the width of the barrel flat - then the ballcutter for the magazine tube - complete the hole for the tube - make sure the tube fits ok while you are setup - then finish the barrel recess using the 45 degree cutter - need to fiddle the setup so you are cutting the same taper as on the barrel - but I would cut it straigtht (parrallel) first then just ease the taper in.
The cutters didnt cost much at all - they just router bits and you would get them locally (Menards or Wherever ???) but spendy that way - Ebay /China is cheap for stuff like this .
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Greyhawk, I'd like to request video for this experiment.
Next gun show I go to I'm going to be looking for some Holy Black. Just got some unlubed 330 FN from Penn Bullets. I have a Lyman lubing/sizing press I bought many years ago for SPGing 44-40 bullets, haven't used it in years. Got to get a .459 lubeing die for it.
Glad your going to give BP. a try in your 76 KM . Half the fun is all the shooting you get to do working up a load that shoots well . Good Luck with your quest .,,,,DT
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ok guys - nothing to write home about here - only shot this at 100yards
excuses first 1) was a bit slow getting to this and a bit of tricky crosswind came up - down ----
2) I struggle these days with vertical sight alignment - memory dont help - I walked up to the target between pairs of shots - can see that on the left hand target
I shot on each target alternately - pointy boolit on the left one and flatnose on the right one
Load for both was 69 grains of homebrew powder, droptubed, milk carton wad, compression die, boolit seated to depth but not crimped - pics of loaded rounds are above in previous posts - pointy boolit is a whisker off the lands - flatnose is touching .
flatnose boolit target group is unimpressive 4 shots two inches deep and four or better side to side with the fifth up another three inches - can pretty much do that with that boolit loaded normally - did I weigh check those boolits - no ---- 407 grains but the handful I checked now had a few 5 to 6 grains lighter . Have you tried any more test loads GreyHawk ? If I read your post right , the bullet close to the lands was no more accurate than a Std, OAL . cartridge ? ,,,,DT
Pointy boolit target has posibilities I think - doesnt measure any better but I bet with a tunnel front sight and a circle insert I could put those two groups on top of each other and the side to side is half wind half my eyes - I think that needs further attention. Nothing went sideways ! so thats a positive
As far as the mechanicals go - no big deal loading - I cock the hammer properly before I open the bolt cuz you short stroking it a little to load - do not want the hammer following the bolt home as ya close it - before going out to shoot I checked the ammo by chambering - just leave the lifter down - bolt open - put em in by hand - push it home wid yr thumb - use a ramrod down the tube to push it back out - gently - dont wanna push the rim under the extractor else ya gotta extricate that - once ya close the bolt - shoot it!! The load and fire part was easier than I thought would be. I need to get a decent tunnel front sight with a set of inserts before I can figure this out any further. pics below
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Somehow I got my post right in the middle of yours .,,,,DT
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Somehow I got my post right in the middle of yours .,,,,DT
Hey Dusty =that was a neat trick - the kind of thing I do - fat thumbs they call it - have a friend calls me on his cell phone regular and halfway through I lose him - I blamed the phone company for the dropouts - he says no mate I switch it off with me ear .
Anyway - the 76 - I have a Lyman front sight on the way - should be here next week - I think I will hold off until I get that - I was kind of reading between the lines on my shooting tother day - I have an ongoing problem nowadays with vertical sight alignment - my serious open sight rifles have flat top front sights an eigth inch wider or better and big square backsight notches to suit - the front on the 76 is just the Uberti issue (winchester copy) and I dont see it well enough to get proper vertical to really try it out .
Neither group was anything special but the pointy nose boolit had two lines of shots that just looked promising so I think i will go ahead with that for a start . Other target was the 405 grain LEE modified flatpoint (one of two variations that I normally shoot) on a good day I can get a two inch group at 50 yards with that loaded normally and thats about what we got on the hundred yard test - those were actually touching the lands so if I try that again I will seat them a little deeper (just off).
Analysing targets I always am encouraged by pairs of holes -- I reckon thats when you had alignment spot on - that says to me this barrel can shoot - you just cant see good enough or hold consistently enough to get it out.
So -- some time loading and another try next week after that front sight turns up - when I fit that I will also take the buttstock off and do a bit more work on the trigger / mainspring to lighten that a bit more.
Looking forward to your report too.
cheers
Greyhawk
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Agree 100% about seeing two shots in one hole , it tells me that is where the load is printing and that the load can be very accurate if I do my part , and my loading is consistent . Or I just missed in the same place twice , possible but not likley . For this new barrel , I cast a new batch from a proven old mould @ 16/1 , they came out just a tad over .458 " and 352 gr. I broke out a new batch of Jamison 50 cases trimmed them to 1.89" my lube wax/tallow mix will use Winchester primers , and start with about 70/71 gr. 2ff Swiss and 2ff Schuetzen , and some 3ff Goex . Next wk . I'll be at my range and can set up my reloading stuff at the bench , load test different loads this way I can eliminate loads that do not look promising , and only test further the ones that look good . Hope to get a good tight group load at the 100 yd.bank and then start moving out farther . Will post results ASAP. ,,,,,DT
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With our talk of shooting for accuracy and distance , this add from I think 1878 ? is a Long Range load 45/90/450 PP cartridge designed for the 1876 Winchester . Would be a problem removing one if not fired after being chambered . The cartridge is rare to say the least , I know of one collector that has one or two . Thought Y'all may like this . Pardon the bad pic. ,,,DT
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With our talk of shooting for accuracy and distance , this add from I think 1878 ? is a Long Range load 45/90/450 PP cartridge designed for the 1876 Winchester . Would be a problem removing one if not fired after being chambered . The cartridge is rare to say the least , I know of one collector that has one or two . Thought Y'all may like this . Pardon the bad pic. ,,,DT
Dusty
- thanks for posting the pic of the long range load - gurus been tellin us for a hundred years+ the 76 was not strong enough to stand heavy loads - your picture kinda ruins all that! .... I dunno how they got 90 grains of powder in that case tho.
Burnt me some powder this morning in the 45/75 - had to fit the front sight I got yesterday - and did a little better with it I think - trigger is still way too heavy - all shot at 100yards still (my marbles sight is gonna run outa threads at about 200 I think)
So shooting my homemade powder here - loads were put together carefully - powder weighed , drop tubed, boolits weighed .
1) 390 grain Pointy boolit + 69 grains + juice box wad - one grease groove out of the case just off the lands
2) 405 grain FP boolit + 62 grains + wad - 2 grease grooves out of the case almost touching the lands
3) 405 grain FP + 65 grains + wad - 2 grease grooves out of the case almost touching the lands
4) Normal hunting load - 405 grain boolit 60 grains powder NO WAD - loaded in the case for magazine feed
The pointy boolit - I am lathe turning the base off of a 459-500-3R lee
If it tests enough better will go ahead and wreck a mold
Next up I need to test the normal load with an overpowder wad so I can yay or nay that one for target
No 1) ---- I shot one foul shot then fiddled round a bit getting organised - then let the four shots go - one two three up the target is typical for a cold magazine rifle - I followed straight on with the next series of five 2) for a decent group (for me!) then had a break while I changed targets etc - sure enough that third target has the same one two three up as she warmed up. This gonna take some time.
Using 348 brass here - with a 458 boolit I have about ZERO neck clearance in the chamber - have never neck reamed cases but may have to look at that ?
ps no clean between shots here - one long slow with the blow tube - 21 shots fired
Extreme on the no 2 was 2&1/4 inches - two nice pairs on that one !
Any suggestions to advance the cause will be taken seriously ;)
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Dusty and all
Thought you might enjoy this
I fired 21 this morning with just the blow tube
Cleaned betsy this afternoon
I used about a cup and half of cold water with a sniff of detergent in it - hard to believe how easy this has got - I use a drink bottle with a plastic tube -
1)pour a little water down from the breech end
2) three or four strokes with a wet patch
3) little more water
4) three or four strokes with a clean damp patch
5) little more water
6) dry patch a couple of swipes
The picture below is of these three patches in sequence
Then a couple more dry patches and an oily patch to preserve it - the whole thing takes just a couple of minutes - I leave the gear setup in my machine shed on a trolley and it includes a cleaning cradle so the gun can rest upside down for the patching. Have a look at those patches though - amazing what can happen with cleanburning black powder and sufficient lube.
Also had a short casting session - 50 from the newer LEE 459-500-3R - these weighed out really good -- 36 right on the money at 490 grains , 5 at +1 , 8 at -1, 1 at - 2 pretty darn good for a twenty five dollar mold!!!
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Very good report , Greyhawk that's some real good shooting . It appears the rifle likes the 405 bullet . Are you going to continue testing all loads , or focus on one ? What load did you think was best ? Your powder is working very good / cant get better than shooting your own powder . Sure looks like it burns clean . ,,,,,DT
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Very good report , Greyhawk that's some real good shooting . It appears the rifle likes the 405 bullet . Are you going to continue testing all loads , or focus on one ? What load did you think was best ? Your powder is working very good / cant get better than shooting your own powder . Sure looks like it burns clean . ,,,,,DT
Dusty
I think I will try the pointy boolit a couple more times - I believe I wasted that group this morning warming the barrel up - and if that one does shoot it should range out better - when I first used the 500 grain version in my sharps I took a full hundred yards off my sight setting over the previous same weight boolit - have just ordered a longer staff for my marbles tang sight so I can at least try this out to 500yards - so the pointy boolit again and also concentrate on the 405 grain - maybe cut the load a bit - the 62 grain load was a touch better than the 65 grain this morning - so I try 62 grain and 60 grain next - been thinking a bit less compression - and I will be using a wad under all these - need to try a wad on the hunting boolit load too - could be a bit problematic - when you seat that 405 grain full in the case the bottom lube groove is still in the neck but the base of the boolit actually protrudes into the shoulder space just a little bit.
All interesting ..........
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I would try the pointy bullet more also . Speaking of the pointy bullet , I have a Lee mould like that bullet , it cast a good bullet . I shoot it in my Sharps also , and it does very good . May get another mould like it and cut it down like you did . Would like trying it in my Heavy Barrel gun. I can see your point about the hunting load with a wad below the neck . Does the 405 hunting bullet need the wad for accuracy? Wind howling here today bad , cold front came through last night dropped temp about 30* from yesterdays temps, nice and cool today but windy ! May get out to the ranch for some shooting this wk. eager to try out the Heavy barrel gun . ,,,DT
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I would try the pointy bullet more also . Speaking of the pointy bullet , I have a Lee mould like that bullet , it cast a good bullet . I shoot it in my Sharps also , and it does very good . May get another mould like it and cut it down like you did . Would like trying it in my Heavy Barrel gun. I can see your point about the hunting load with a wad below the neck . Does the 405 hunting bullet need the wad for accuracy? Wind howling here today bad , cold front came through last night dropped temp about 30* from yesterdays temps, nice and cool today but windy ! May get out to the ranch for some shooting this wk. eager to try out the Heavy barrel gun . ,,,DT
Dusty
I havent cut that mold down yet - been lathe turning the few boolits down for testing - this morning I loaded five full size (490grain) over 60 grains of powder and a wad - the Uberti is 1:20 twist - maybe it shoots them ok ? only one way to find out - been too windy to shoot today tho ---- I figured if 450 grain slug over 90 grains of powder was safe in an original - the only thing I will hurt will be my shoulder with this load.
So next test I have the full size pointy boolit, the 405 grain hunting load with a wad, and also my 330 grain boolit with a wad, all with 60 grains of powder - will make sure I shoot three or four to warm the barrel first - take care of that vertical dispersion I got.
I have a 500 yard match coming up at Easter but I wont have this 76 sorted good enough so will have to get to work with the sharps soon - sure wished I didnt bruise that shoulder the other day - that was a bit careless ! I reckon I will get a shot this evening or tomorrow morning early - will post as soon as I do .
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I got a bit confused , I thought you had cut that mould down. Anxious to see how the 490 gr. full length bullet shoots . May try that load myself . Have you shot an animal with either hunting load ? My own experience with the 45/75 and 350gr. around 71gr. 2ff Swiss has been very good , on deer and wild boar . The older I get the longer it takes for bruises to go away ! Wish you the best at the 500 yd . match . ,,,DT
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I got a bit confused , I thought you had cut that mould down. Anxious to see how the 490 gr. full length bullet shoots . May try that load myself . Have you shot an animal with either hunting load ? My own experience with the 45/75 and 350gr. around 71gr. 2ff Swiss has been very good , on deer and wild boar . The older I get the longer it takes for bruises to go away ! Wish you the best at the 500 yd . match . ,,,DT
Mr Dusty ------- I think we stumbled onto something here - I would never have tried this - except you posted that pic of the winchester long range load
So..... Still windy this morning - reasonably steady across the range at 15 to 20 mph (maybe ? a good stiff breeze anyway with occasional gusts in it ) I shot over the roof of the car this morning - lets me get that crescent but out off my collar bone and I like the position)
Common to all targets so far is that 2 to 3 minute of angle elevation as the barrel warms - the better I get things sorted the more that one sticks out .
The LEE pointy boolit (this was the full size 459-500-3R) was loaded with the front lube groove and about half the first driving band out of the case - my cases are cut a tad short - chambers will vary some - this is just a touch off the lands. Only loaded five of these - the first one was almost off the bottom of the target - I wound the sights up and shot the other four for group - cold barrel got me again but that shot landed smack in the ten ring about half an inch above the X - next three made a real nice group (for me!)
The 405 grain this morning was loaded correct length for magazine function which puts the wad down out of the neck - and I dont believe that wad did anything (in that load)
The 330 Grain - again loaded correct for magazine function with a juice box wad over the powder - maybe a little improvement over no wad ? Shot ok for a hunting load
Have a comment on magazine construction but will post that separately
Have to say I got a bit excited about the potential of that LEE 500 grainer (mine are going a little under = 490 +/- 3)
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Good news about the pointy bullet , that bullet/load looks like it has more to give . I have about 30 of the 459-500-3R cast now with wheel weights they drop .459 @ 486 gr. will add them to the list for testing . Will load one today in order to get a bullet seating depth to start with ,and an idea of the powder amount needed . How did the Pointy- 3R load feel compared to the hunting loads ? Thank You for sharing your test results .,,,,,,DT
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Good news about the pointy bullet , that bullet/load looks like it has more to give . I have about 30 of the 459-500-3R cast now with wheel weights they drop .459 @ 486 gr. will add them to the list for testing . Will load one today in order to get a bullet seating depth to start with ,and an idea of the powder amount needed . How did the Pointy- 3R load feel compared to the hunting loads ? Thank You for sharing your test results .,,,,,,DT
Sounds like we have the same mold!
From here I am gonna just go with that full size 3R boolit - I could maybe get a few grains more powder in but think I have been compressing that homebrew too much. Recoil ? really didnt notice much different from the 405 grain hunting load (same powder charge) but a noticeable reduction for the 330 grain boolit (thats a bit weird really!) - still windy here - might run a few over the chrono tomorrow. Ordered taller staff for my marbles tang sight but its coming from your country so just have to wait for that - the one I have will run out maybe 300 yards. Glad you appreciate the info - I have picked up a lot from these forums - good to be able to contribute a little .
cheers
Greyhawk
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Not to change your subject, but I found a can of Goex FF BP in the back of the powder shelf. Got to be at least 10 years old. Not alot, but enuff to make a dozen or so rounds. My lube/sizer die will be here today, so I can make up a few rounds. What is the shelf life for BP?
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Must be a long time if kept dry , I have some can's of Goex from the 1970's that I still shoot . Looks like its OK .,,,,DT
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i frequently shoot old dupont that is from my dads old stash.....1973 vintage or so. it works fine and is accurate.
kw
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Not to change your subject, but I found a can of Goex FF BP in the back of the powder shelf. Got to be at least 10 years old. Not alot, but enuff to make a dozen or so rounds. My lube/sizer die will be here today, so I can make up a few rounds. What is the shelf life for BP?
100yrs plus if it still rattles in the can and pours ok its good
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Ok thanks guys, I'll get a few loaded up soon. Got my lube/sizer die today so just need to find the time. My tube of SPG is kinda old too.
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Aint we all a bit old King LOL.,,,,DT
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Aint we all a bit old King LOL.,,,,DT
Dusty
I am stalled on my 76 longrange project -- the weather is finally turned nice for shooting here but now getting tuned in for the easter match - muzzlelloaders and the one long range (mid range for you fellers!) - will shoot the sharps there (500yard match) just tested loads with my powder and happy with the boolit strikes so will take the leap and do it. So back to the 76 in ten days time.
I am waiting on a longer staff for my marbles rear sight for the 76 - coming from Brownells US - have not dealt with these people before - am very impressed so far - ordered on 20th - got an email just now saying its in Australian customs. Yeah impressed !!!
A few days off with my son and some good mates in a bush camp - blackpowder and old guns - life is good hey!!!
Cheers
Greyhawk
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Hello Greyhawk , Good Luck at your shoot . The 45/75 load testing with my EHB 76 will have to wait another 10 days or so. I have many test loads ready and no time to go test .,,,,, DT
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Hello Greyhawk , Good Luck at your shoot . The 45/75 load testing with my EHB 76 will have to wait another 10 days or so. I have many test loads ready and no time to go test .,,,,, DT
Thanks got me three rifles tuned in dead centre and loads figured - if we do no good it not their fault ;) - it will be a good weekend and I need the break.
Lets get back on the 76's in a couple weeks.
Cheers
Greyhawk
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Dusty
Things have been a bit quiet - work gets in the way of fun sometimes eh.
Still waiting on my longer range sight staff for the 76 tried a few more shots at 100yards just now
Little bit of crosswind - otherwise all good.
Five shots with the 500grain LEE where the boolit shells are - got a couple of good ones in and looks like I pulled two - the one up high is typical - see that feller all over my targets goin back thirty years.
The three just under are warmup shots using the 405 grain Lee just the normal in case load - really interesting that the two loads are so little different in elevation.
Mainspring worked its way out of the slot AGAIN! after the first few so the side shift could be due to pulling the stock off - moving tang sight etc. I reckon this gun has started to find its rythm in the last hundred or so - (maybe I am trying harder)
Should have that sight staff today and try the 500yards mark this week sometime - have a really good place to shoot down a firebreak on a friends farm next door - can spot the shots by the dust and then you can see the strikes easy in the dirt.
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Greyhawk , good shooting looks like the 76 likes the 500 LEE . Anxious to see your test @ 500 yd. Hope you get better conditions for shooting than I am getting over here. Beautiful weather just very windy ! ,,,DT
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Windy today , shot one 5 shot group A 100yd. and decided to save my loads for better conditions . Cross wind 15-20 mph. gust up to 30+. Try again later. ,,,,DT
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Took my 76 uberti to the local blackpowder club today - plinking after the matches - I made a soule style tang sight for it and looking to get settings sorted for that - fired fourty shots without cleaning at all - used the blow tube after each break of shooting - these were fireform loads made in 2015 and got lost in my system - boolit was the LEE 405 HB, modified back to 335 grains, over 57 grains of homemade FG powder, lube is 50/50 beeswax and neatsfoot oil - I just poked along steady so the barrel didnt get too hot - no sign of excessive fouling - cleaned up in five minutes like usual - no sign of leading and the last three shots grouped as good as the first. Blackpowder shooting is pretty much fun when it goes like this.!!
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greyhawk.......
what is "home made fg powder"? can't you buy a can of 1F or 1 1/2f locally?
kw
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greyhawk.......
what is "home made fg powder"? can't you buy a can of 1F or 1 1/2f locally?
kw
Just adding another level of fun/satisfaction to the whole experience - Swiss would cost me high side of sixrty bucks a pound - ingredients for roll yer own maybe two dollars .........................................
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New load for the 76 Uberti 45/75
Been messing with heavy boolit loads
470 grain CBE boolit loaded long (almost touching the rifling) It pretty much a copy of the Lyman 535 Postell but missing one drive band and lube groove
72 Grains FFg
50 thou HDPE plastic wad (cut from a 15 litre water container)
5 shot group fired this morning at 100 yards
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I recently purchased an original NWMP '76 carbine, and intended to start reloading for it. I don't want to use Black Powder. I have the brass and 350gr. bullets. I want to use a safe smokeless or Pyrodex load. Please offer your suggestions.
p
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Plenty to choose from in this thread. Read it and try them.
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I recently purchased an original NWMP '76 carbine, and intended to start reloading for it. I don't want to use Black Powder. I have the brass and 350gr. bullets. I want to use a safe smokeless or Pyrodex load. Please offer your suggestions.
They like blackpowder .......they really really like blackpowder !
I wouldnt use pyrodex in anything I value due to its rustability index
Plenty blokes here have smokeyless loads that work - I wuzgunna do that - but the black worked really nice so I didnt go there .
These Ubertis clean up slick as a whistle after blackpowder - the cleaning really is a cinch -
p
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I recently purchased an original NWMP '76 carbine, and intended to start reloading for it. I don't want to use Black Powder. I have the brass and 350gr. bullets. I want to use a safe smokeless or Pyrodex load. Please offer your suggestions.
p
I would think very carefully about using anything besides BP in an original mountie carbine... Your choice, of course, but I'd think carefully.
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I would think very carefully about using anything besides BP in an original mountie carbine... Your choice, of course, but I'd think carefully.
a wise man , a very wise man would heed
I'd ehco BP or APP ...no to pyrodex
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a wise man , a very wise man would heed
I'd ehco BP or APP ...no to pyrodex
ooooopsy I missed the "original" word first time round ............................
I reckon black only .
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Plenty to choose from in this thread. Read it and try them.
When I read about peoples loads, I don't know if they are reloading for a new Ubirti gun or, for and old iron gun like mine.
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When I read about peoples loads, I don't know if they are reloading for a new Ubirti gun or, for and old iron gun like mine.
You just got the best and safest advice for an old iron gun. Black Powder only. It's your gun but why would you even risk getting hurt or destroying a piece of history? Besides you can't get anywhere close to the same enjoyment shooting smokeless and black powder is the only way to get the full experience of shooting a historical gun made for black powder.
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I passed on a Lyman mold/mould (how does it get really get spelled, I see both ways?) (Lyman 457191 Single Cavity) on ebay. Price was $70. Would that have been a good mold for the 45/75? no bids, so I'm watching to see if it comes back. I didn't bid because I thought the 457 part is the diameter? Is this number the strict diameter or will the size fluctuate with different alloy?
Steve
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I use a mold/mould (both spellings are actually acceptable) from Accurate Molds which I like a great deal. It casts closer to 350 grains.
Before investing in that Lyman mold, you could try some from Montana Bullet Works. I've never ordered from them, but I hear good reports.
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-lyman-457191-292gr-fn-bb/ (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-lyman-457191-292gr-fn-bb/)
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It is correctly spelled 'both' ways. Lee uses 'Mold' on their boxes and Lyman uses 'Mould' on their orange containers.
To answer your second question - that would have been a good price for the 457191 new mould.
To then answer your third question - No. The 457191 is the bullet for the 45/60; 45/90 at 292grs.. The proper bullet for the 45/75 is # 457192 at 350grs..
To your fourth question Yes for Lyman the first three numbers represent the diameter. My 457191 mould drops at 0.457 for the original 1 to 16 tin/ lead alloy. I could leave it as is since I shoot smokeless but I size to the correct diameter of 0.456. Your uberti rifle may have a different / larger groove diameter. Lyman listed, at one time, a 456 and a 457 for both the 191 and 192 designs.
For the last question 'Yes' you can and will see slight variation in diameters with different lead mixtures. That is why most cast bullets need to be final sized to your desires or firearm needs. You may need to buy from different companies to get a large enough mould to cast bullets, you need. The 44 calibers are notorious for different chambers and bores. My first Lyman 45Colt mould was a new 454190 but that mould only dropped 0.452 size bullets. I was not sauvey when I first started to cast, therefore I did not catch this size difference for a time. I later bought an older model of the 454190 and was happen to measure a 0.454 bullet. MY 45 Colts firearms had true 0.454 barrels not modernized 0.452's. So be careful and get a good caliper if you do not already have one.
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Would a neck sizing die for a 45/110/120 work for neck sizing the 45/75? I'm not real happy with the way my CH4D die sizes the neck. Mine is the Uberti chamber, just seems like there is not much bullets tension. With .458 bullets, sometime falls into the case. .459's stay put, but it doesn't feel like its very tight. Die is all the way down to the shell holder.
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I use a mold/mould (both spellings are actually acceptable) from Accurate Molds which I like a great deal. It casts closer to 350 grains.
Before investing in that Lyman mold, you could try some from Montana Bullet Works. I've never ordered from them, but I hear good reports.
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-lyman-457191-292gr-fn-bb/ (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-lyman-457191-292gr-fn-bb/)
Which Accurate mold number is that if you don't mind me asking?
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He has several similar designs for the .45-75, but the one that I have used with my Uberti carbine is his 46-345LC:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-345LC-D.png (http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-345LC-D.png)
I've attached a photo too.
CC Griff
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CCG, is your's the Uberti Chamber?
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Mine has the newer Uberti chamber which is very similar to the original Winchester.
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I've owned a bunch of original '76 carbines in all calibers, including .50 Express. The .45-75 has always been a favorite. I took my son-in-laws out last weekend and let them shoot a .45-75 carbine and a .50 Express rifle. What a blast. I never use smokeless in any of my original 76's. You are asking for trouble. In the .45-75, I use 4.3 grs. of 4227 on the primer and 67 grains of 2F black, with a card wad on top. My cases are reformed 348 Winchester, so this is a compressed load. I use ONLY 350 grain bullets with SPG blackpowder bullet lube. The blackpowder lube and the 4227, help keep the fowling down considerably. Always use soap and water to clean the bore and turn the gun upside down with action open and carrier block up, flush with the bottom of the receiver. Much easier to clean and no residue will drip into the action, if done right. Good luck and have fun.
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Would a neck sizing die for a 45/110/120 work for neck sizing the 45/75? I'm not real happy with the way my CH4D die sizes the neck. Mine is the Uberti chamber, just seems like there is not much bullets tension. With .458 bullets, sometime falls into the case. .459's stay put, but it doesn't feel like its very tight. Die is all the way down to the shell holder.
Have you tried it with fatter boolits ? my Uberti does real well with boolits sized .460 (even bigger is ok) -- I only shoot blackpowder so neck tension is not a requirement and I dont resize (nor neck size either) on my sixth firing with one batch of cases and I made a die that just kisses the brass where it swells above the solid head - this brass should last a long time I reckon.
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No, I haven't tried bigger bullets. I don't cast my own, yet. Reading up and looking at stuff to get to start tho.
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I worked up a few loads for my Orginal NWMP carbine this winter, and took it out yesterday to shoot. Shot at a couple of 6"X8" printer paper targets. I used some old JBA brass I had on hand, 350 gr. (458 DIAM) Meister Bullets, and IMR 4198 smokeless powder. The powder loads were: 24 gr., 25. gr, and 25.5 gr. They pretty much shot similarly at about 40 yards. They mostly impacted a little high and a little to the right. Was shooting over some logs out in the woods on land my son owns, so was wasn't intending it to be a tack driver. I will be using 25 gr. in the future.
For those overly concerned about using smokeless powder in an orginal 1876 Winchester I'll tell you what didn't happen: the firing pin didn't come flying backward and take out my eye, the receiver didn't explode and turn my expensive gun into 9 pounds of scrap iron, and the barrel didn't explode and destroy a piece of history. I believe I have as much respect for these old guns as anyone, but I do not believe they must be treated as some sort of holy relic that can not be enjoyed and used as intended.
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How did you get that stuff to stick to the ceiling like that?
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Click on the picture and it will be right side up
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I have had good results w/ H-4198 in both 40-60 & 45-60. Nice looking rifle.
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
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It was mis-identified in an on-line auction, so I got it for $3,800. Which I consider a good deal for an original NWMP carbine. It also has a bright shiny bore. No pits and no rough spots. The Mountie that had this gun took very good care of it.
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Hi Guys,
I really enjoy reading your posts.
I have a 1876 Chaparral 45-75, unlike some of the posts I have read about the Chaparral, the one I have is GREAT! No problems.
One of the finest rifles I have ever had. It is heavy with the 28" octagon barrel. Fine wood, good fit, exceptional color case hardening.
I shoot a Lyman 457122, flat base hollow point bullet 330 grains.
I am shooting 43 grains of 3031 with good results.
With the weight of the rifle, I can shoot 20-30 rounds with total comfort.
If anyone can find fault with this load combination, please join in.
Have a great day!
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-voyB-X6bn94/VKNi1uf10BI/AAAAAAAAfA0/lvmp-9dVAuY/s1600/DSC00042.JPG)
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In my Original 76, 26” Octagon, ladder sights with set trigger, I just shot it for the first time, at the Cody Big bore shoot using Trail Boss. Made up 150 pieces of brass, 13.5 grains TB with a 350 grain bullet. Very mild, a joy to shoot at the 200 yard steel. Just picked up a replica to play with, in the crossfire trail configuration. I’ll get a bullet mold and make two different levels to shoot
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I have resized WW .348 Winchester brass for use in my original Model 1876. It works pretty well. The spent cases eject nicely on the range. Later, after they cool down they won't chamber easily. I have to full-length resize them to get them to chamber correctly. Is this normal? These cartridges are only being fired in one rifle.
I don't have this issue with the .40-60 or .45-60 cases but they are essentially straight. See photo below. The resized case is on the right. Note the shoulder difference.
Any thoughts from the group?
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I know my original 76 in 45-75 has a different looking chamber than the Uberti and my Uberti is supposed to be the more updated (correct dimension) chamber but they are noticably different just looking at fired brass. The original fired brass is more rounded, coke bottle looking shape rather than sharp edges of shoulder very much like it appears yours to be. I can't say I've tried to rechamber a fired case without running through a sizer die.
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Mine is the so called Uberti Chamber. The shoulder is quite a bit forward than normal. My internet is down so I'm on my phone, don't have the pic of the difference for a couple more days. I'll post it when I can.
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I will echo what Mr. King says in that my Uberti has their chamber and during the adventures of reloading over the years I have discovered a difference in rim diameter. The Uberti didn't like the brass from Quality Cartridge company as the rims were to small in diameter. Also the first shell holder I got from Buffalo Arms years ago was a Lyman for the original 45-75 but new production cases were to large in diameter to fit the holder. Call to folks at Buffalo and they got the correct one exchanged with me. Learned from them there was indeed a size difference in original and new in several ways. Older pic I have posted before showing a once fired then reloaded round next to a new case - hopefully the pic shows the difference in shape. All part of the fun enjoying these rifles and their cartridges!!!
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Alright - First post over here. Greetings fellow 45-75 WCF types. I am considering ordering some 45-75 brass from Rocky Mountain Cart. Co. - And am wondering if there is any difference in what R.M.C. is turning out based or original specs. COMPARED TO Jamison Brass. I am going to be using it in a later production Cimarron/Uberti 1876 Crossfire Carbine. The Jamison brass functions well - But is there any significant difference between the RMC brass based on original spec.'s and the Jamison brass?? I thought about sending them a Jamison case if the difference between the two. Another way of asking the same question is, does the RMC brass function properly in latter production Cimarron guns - Thanks for taking a look and appreciate any answers in advance
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Square Butte,
I use both RMC and Jamison brass in my Uberti 45-75. The rifle likes them both. The rims on the RMC are a little thicker but have experienced no issues with this, just notice a little more tension on the lever on going into battery but as noted, both work great with the rifle. The RMC brass comes a little long to let you trim to the length you want. It is heavy walled brass as it is made via turning out on a machine as opposed to draw process in Jamison. Different approaches to making a case but same result. Best of luck in your efforts. Let us know how things progress.
P.B.
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Thanks very much P. B. - Exactly what i was looking for. Curious if your Uberti has the earlier or later chamber dimensions
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Well the rifle is approximately 11 years old and was purchased brand new. The short answer is, I don't know but with its age would guess earlier.
P.B.
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If your fired cases look fairly similar to your new cases, then you probably have the later style chamber. If your fired cases show much less of a step, then you have the earlier chamber style.
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Ok, I scored a Cimarron 1876 NWMP Carbine and want to shoot BP in the 45-75 cartridges. Since ammo is currently unobtainable, I have quested for an alternative. My online search for components has not been fruitful. Aside from powder ,primers and 20 cases (I bought the last 20) I have had no luck finding bullets. I have no experience casting my own. Any guidance on how to proceed is appreciated !
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Pretty much any lead 45/70 350 gr. bullet will do. Size .458/459.
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Pretty much any lead 45/70 350 gr. bullet will do. Size .458/459.
Assuming a flat nose.
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Well, yeah. Guess I thought that was common knowledge. My bad.
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Well, yeah. Guess I thought that was common knowledge. My bad.
You are correct -- it is common knowledge. I just thought that it might be worth mentioning in case someone comes along who hadn't learned that yet.
Griff
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Ok, I scored a Cimarron 1876 NWMP Carbine and want to shoot BP in the 45-75 cartridges. Since ammo is currently unobtainable, I have quested for an alternative. My online search for components has not been fruitful. Aside from powder ,primers and 20 cases (I bought the last 20) I have had no luck finding bullets. I have no experience casting my own. Any guidance on how to proceed is appreciated !
When considering a bullet, If you are going to run & cycle your 20 cartridges that you will handload through the magazine, You will want to take into account what your finished overall cartridge length needs to be to properly feed into the lifter from the magazine to function properly. To long or too short can tie up the action. Also consider that you most probably will want to have a bullet with a crimp groove to prevent bullet push back into to case when loading into the magazine ( although it can be done without a crimp groove). Take a look at Accurate Molds bullets designed for 45-75 wcf and note the distance from the crimp groove to the bullet meplate ( flat end of the nose ). That distance added to the case length will give you approx. COL ( cartridge overall length ) for that bullet design. You want a total length that approximates 45-75 wcf specs (approx. 2.25 )and will run in your rifle. If i recall correctly, the Accurate Molds bullet designs for 45-75 have a crimp groove to meplate distance of .36 - Many of the 45-70 bullets have a longer crimp groove to meplate distance that may tie up the action of your 45-75 if you were to use the crimp groove provided. Just some more you stuff to think about... Not that you needed any more to confuse you.
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Thanks, it’s OK, if I didn’t love the variables of obsolete cartridges I’d spend my time shooting ball ammo in my Glock 19. I just wish I could score some loaded ammo for the ‘76 to get my feet wet. I’m a little surprised that Cimarron doesn’t sell the ammo themselves.
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I've never bought ammo from Buffalo Arms (others here may have more to add), but even though it shows out of stock, it might be worth giving them a call. https://www.buffaloarms.com/45-75-winchester-black-powder-amobp4575win.html (https://www.buffaloarms.com/45-75-winchester-black-powder-amobp4575win.html)
Griff
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Prepare for a large depletion of your bank account. Learn to reload.
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I intend to. I recently picked up a Winchester 1880 loading tool for the caliber.
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Anyone know what the wait time these days might be from Rocky Mountain Cart. for 45-75 Win - I've had some ordered since last fall
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Square Butte,
RMC delivery times of late I can't answer for but they will get it to you. I have purchased 45-75 brass from them in the past (couple years back last time) and can tell you it is worth the wait. I do know they are swamped what with some other companies that make obsolete and semi-obsolete cases going out of business. Last order I placed took a while to get but it made it. Hope you have as good a luck with the cases as I have. Options for getting cases made are getting slim these days.
P.B.
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Thanks PB - I suspected it might be awhile. Good news is i have a little stash of Jamison which will keep me going until the RMC shows up. Glad you have had good luck with yours.
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Cast about 350 45/75 and 45/60 boolits the past couple days. This May weather is awesome. Not the prettiest of slugs, but should make a hole in something.
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/render/00-Dhr2tlvawMSNFX4TrMAMCKr_1AnQ3pv5Eb7vbRPURMpyXELtKcJOuRCuSZHnB1sJV7ntXQOewWgszVPDOQPWWw?cn=THISLIFE&res=medium&ts=1709072193)