The Pattillo Brothers with Knives

[Shotgun Steve]

http://www.southernmuseum.org/images/portrait_in_gray_2.jpg

Moderator remark: Photo embedding removed from our site after request from owner.

The Pattillo Brothers from Henry County, Georgia, ¼ plate ambrotype, by unknown photographer. The four brothers, each holding a D- guard Bowie or side knife, (left to right) Benjamin, George, James and John were all members of the 22nd Georgia.

[Delmonico]

I wonder how long they kept them once they reached the field and started marching and fighting.   

[Shotgun Steve]

I have no idea how long they carried them or what they did with them. I am posting
the photos for something to look at. By the way as a combat veteran myself I can only say that I didn't throw
all my damn gear away just because it got heavy....never know when something might just save your backside.
And to answer your question on the other knife...Both of the knives in the other posts are owned by the same man who collects nothing but Confederate blades. If you want the URL it is below. Click and scroll down.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g90/chaindrive55/SideKnifeDamagedHandle006.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t20336.html&usg=__j6GE8TPkKS-ocHBACAY4_3QCKCI=&h=600&w=800&sz=46&hl=en&start=51&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=ED6bqZhSyTXb8M:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcivil%2Bwar%2Bside%2Bknives%26start%3D36%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D18%26tbs%3Disch:1

[Advertising]

[Marshal Deadwood]

Do we have conculsive, concrete proof that everyone thew their 'large knife' away ?

If 'some' did,,,that still doesn't cement the deal that they 'all' did.

So, how would carrying a item that existed historically, be wrong ?

Seems to have been a LOT of d-guard bowies anyways. And at that time, since we are 'guessing' anyways, I would think some would  have considered it their 'other' side arm.

Anyways, Steve is a heck of 'finder of history' (best I've ever seen) but,,, no were did I see that he advocated how, if , when , were they were carried,,he just provides the proof they existed. And they seemed to have existed in decent numbers.

And, as always when someone can not provide docum or solid answers ,,,we can ALL do our own research....

MD

[Delmonico]

Don't get your knickers in a bunch guys, no one said all did, but by lots of accounts the battlefields were full of tossed away knives and also almost all the photos of guys with these big knives are studio photos, not photos of men in the field.  MD if you want go to one of the websites that have the Civil War photo's and see how many photos you can find of men in the field carrying big knives.  I spent some time a couple years back and did not find on.  A few of guys in camp, lots in studios but none really in the field.

Steve I'm sure you did not throw away anything useful, but no one has yet explained how these big knives were that useful in a Civil War type battle or shown any place where someone has mentioned their use.  As for the question, it was an honest one, all I saw was a big knife wit no other information.

Funny how folks get so upset when I try to get answers to a conclusion I've made on lack of evidence, and I've spent enough hours researching if these big knives were really used much to be paid overtime if I was getting paid for it by the hour and did it in one week.

I really doubt anyone who gets upset at my conclusion have spent near that much time to prove me wrong.  I spent at least 2 hours yesterday looking at pictures trying to find them.  So if anyone has proof, based on honest research, please show me I'm wrong, if not, please get to doing a bit of homework before you get so all fired upset.  And sorry, some one documenting a knife was owned by a Confederate soldier does not mean said soldier carried it forth and did battle to protect his state's rights, it just means he owned it.  Grandpa may have given it to him and instead of throwing it away he sent it home, lots of mention of that and other gear being sent home one both sides in Civil War accounts, could spend the time at the library and get more specifics on who and when, but since so many here seems to have spent so much time studing the life of the common soldier, then they have seen such accounts.

[The Elderly Kid]

Do keep in mind that the vast majority of Civil War photos we have are of Federal soldiers. There seems to have been no Confederate equivalent of Matthew Brady, with whole teams of photographers trundling their wagons from camp to camp. Most of the Confederate photos to have survived are studio protraits like the one above, and a far smaller number of shots from the camps, and almost none in the field. It may be that more Confederates retained their big knives through the war. They were always more popular in the South than in the North, they were useful camp tools for an army that was always short of supplies and equipment, and a Bowie was just a reassuring presence on the belt in the days of single-shot arms and uncertain resupply.

[Delmonico]

Do keep in mind that the vast majority of Civil War photos we have are of Federal soldiers. There seems to have been no Confederate equivalent of Matthew Brady, with whole teams of photographers trundling their wagons from camp to camp. Most of the Confederate photos to have survived are studio protraits like the one above, and a far smaller number of shots from the camps, and almost none in the field. It may be that more Confederates retained their big knives through the war. They were always more popular in the South than in the North, they were useful camp tools for an army that was always short of supplies and equipment, and a Bowie was just a reassuring presence on the belt in the days of single-shot arms and uncertain resupply.

So where is the proof?  A few studio pictures and accounts of the fields being littered with tossed off equipment including large knives.  All I ask for is proof, two or three accounts of guys actually using them in battle. 

BTW there are more photos than most think of Confederates in the field, the Time Life series books on the Civil War have more than a few.  Besides you don't even see these knives on the dead ones that Brady's studio took pictures of.

[ChuckBurrows]

 I don't have the exact source in front of me (nor do I have the time nor inclination to go look it up but it is there) but I can give you a lead on one reported CW usage:
1) IIRC it was Manassas 2 the boys in gray were ordered to attack with Bowies......
2) Big knives were used in a plethora of duels and other hand to hand fights - Flayderman's book The Bowie Knife has a bunch of primary reports on such doings - if yuo don't have it I HIGHLY recommend it - at around $80.00 it's cheap for what you get - 520 pages of absolutely gorgeous images, both period and current, plus some of the best current info primary documentation available.
3) Whether used in battle or not the fact is big knives were made by the thousands so there was a definite market and I would seriously doubt that all were unused or discarded and they are historical.....Most though were used prior to the wide spread use of cartridge arms, when a back up weapon was more necessary.
4) In a previous thread Del you noted that you had found no or little evidence of folks other than Texas Rangers carrying belt knives (don't remember you're exact words), yet in a short time looking at only three sources I found several pics of men not TR's carrying - the sources are:
The Bowie Knife
Packing Iron
The Peacemakers
yes most are studio photos, but then again so were most photos of the era so do we discount all of them if they don't fit one's personal image. To the experienced eye (and after doing such research for over 40 years, much of it on knives since that is not only my livelihood but my passion - that inlcudes looking at  tens of thousands of period photos - I have over 25K of all types stored on my computer at last count) it is generally fairly easy to discern what was a prop and what was the real McCoy.
5) While earlier than our era one of the most common knives amongst the trappers and later scouts and the Indians, was an 8" butcher knife - many were the classic butcher shape ala the Russell Green River, but the term was as well applied to most any large knife of the era (i.e. the original Bowie as described by Rezin was 9 1/4" version of what we know today as a French Chef's knife) - that is until the Bowie came along and then the writers began using that term because it sold better.
6) Yes for some maybe even maybe most folks a smaller blade is more convenient/useful, but it all depends on experience - my favorite of all my knives has an 8" blade and I've used for everything from splitting kindling to buttering bread to skinning critters. Not all big bladed knives are heavy or clumsy and once one learns how to use one they can be more useful than a shorter blade especially when used as a general camp knife.

Del - While I too like documentation and generally applaud those asking for it, IMO making "demands" of other people borders on the rude - I realize that the written word doesn't have the same nuances as the spoken word does while sitting around the camp fire, but recently Del yours seem to be more argumentative or maybe preachy is a better term than helpful - asking if one has any documentation is good but it's all in the approach - if they don't have what you want no need to preach go look it up for yourself.
Secondly Steve is posting many interesting photos that are historical no matter what - yes items shown in photos can be  questionable as to actual usage, but for many it's still of interest and who or whether used is secondary to the basic subject.
Yes it would be nice to have everything cleanly and clearly documented, but it's also nice to just look and take things at face value for what they are.

[Delmonico]

Chuck, what I'm trying to do is get some discussion going on these as to what others are seeing, and what they know   I don't mean for it to sound any other way. And yes perhaps that method is better done around a campfire in person.  Sometimes it seems like no one has any real information, with out  just plain doing like this.  Thanks for jumping in and providing some based on study, I've learned more from your two posts today than I have in this forum the last week.  I have most of those books but right now they are boxed in storage for a while.

I love the photos Steve is posting, but to look at them and say great picture like most do and move on seems like a waste of Steve's time.  And Steve keep posting the pictures you find interesting, don't ever misunderstand me, but to look at a picture that has some information to be learned and not learn it seems like such a waste. 

[ChuckBurrows]

Chuck, what I'm trying to do is get some discussion going on these as to what others are seeing, and what they know   I don't mean for it to sound any other way. And yes perhaps that method is better done around a campfire in person.  Sometimes it seems like no one has any real information, with out  just plain doing like this.  Thanks for jumping in and providing some based on study, I've learned more from your two posts today than I have in this forum the last week.  I have most of those books but right now they are boxed in storage for a while.

I love the photos Steve is posting, but to look at them and say great picture like most do and move on seems like a waste of Steve's time.  And Steve keep posting the pictures you find interesting, don't ever misunderstand me, but to look at a picture that has some information to be learned and not learn it seems like such a waste.  

I understand that, but others may not so......I  know that in great part that's what Steve's (BTW a good friend - now that Marshall guy on the other hand LOL   ) intent is, but overall whether folks post or not beyond the attaboy I still like the images - many if not most I've saved to disk along with what info is supplied so for me at least he's saved me a lot of time and don't reckon he's wasted his - just done me and hopefully others a favor
and glad you didn't take my post as being snarky or some kind of uncalled for reprimand!

[Ned Buckshot]

It's only a waste if you perceive it as such.

Just let people enjoy photos of old knives PLEASE!

Ned

[Marshal Deadwood]

Wa', Chuck, what an ugly thang to say to me. Does this mean I'ma gon'a have ta catch the 3:10 to Durango ?   

You da man, Chuck.
   

MD

[Delmonico]

I understand that, but others may not so......I  know that in great part that's what Steve's (BTW a good friend - now that Marshall guy on the other hand LOL   ) intent is, but overall whether folks post or not beyond the attaboy I still like the images - many if not most I've saved to disk along with what info is supplied so for me at least he's saved me a lot of time and don't reckon he's wasted his - just done me and hopefully others a favor
and glad you didn't take my post as being snarky or some kind of uncalled for reprimand!

No you and I think a lot alike for the most part.  I know there are some who just want to look at the pictures and say atta boy, but there are others who want to glean all the information they can from things like this.  Nothing wrong with just wanting to look, but also there is nothing wrong with folks wanting to increase their knowledge.  What you and I understand Chuck that many don't, historical researchers are like lawyers in some ways.  We'll sit around argue, almost at times be down right rude to each other over a point and then go off with a pat on the back and have coffee or beer and still be friends.   

[Books OToole]

By the way as a combat veteran myself I can only say that I didn't throw
all my damn gear away just because it got heavy....never know when something might just save your backside.

It always gripes me when the guy staggering accross the desert takes the last drops out of his canteen and throws it away.
Maybe the heat and thirst makes them stupid.

Books

[Delmonico]

It's only a waste if you perceive it as such.

Just let people enjoy photos of old knives PLEASE!

Ned

So who says you can't just look at the pictures and not get into any of the disscussions?   So just because you don't like to disscuss and learn, that means no one else should either?

[Shotgun Steve]

Del I am not upset with anyone. I will say that at times you come across as a little
preachy but the keyboards are hard to bring emotion and intent to the thread.
To me even if the information is lacking for an image a lot can be learned just by taking
the time to study the picture. I like documentation myself. I have been involved in living history
since the early 70's. As I have said before sometimes there just isn't any information to accompany the image
so I let folks make up there own mind about whether to research what they see or not.
By the way I don't wear knickers it ain't manly!!!!

[GunClick Rick]

Had a feller tell me once,"you"d bitch if you were hung with a new rope",i replied"yea but it wouldn't be the rope i'd be bitchin about"

Here's a period correct rope,but id use any knife to cut it

[Mogorilla]

"It always gripes me when the guy staggering accross the desert takes the last drops out of his canteen and throws it away.
Maybe the heat and thirst makes them stupid."

ROTFLMAO!!!!!
That was my dad's favorite beef with movies (that and where did the guy with flat saddlebags/small bedroll get the coffee pot, couple of pots/cups etc.)   Usually elicited "now that Dumb a## will have to walk back and find the canteen when he finds water!"

honestly made my morning reading that.

Steve-Love the pics
Chuck-informative as always
Del-thought you were trying to get discussions rolling.

[Delmonico]

Had a feller tell me once,"you"d bitch if you were hung with a new rope",i replied"yea but it wouldn't be the rope i'd be bitchin about"

Here's a period correct rope,but id use any knife to cut it

It's also said that a day that you don't learn anything is wasted. 

[The Elderly Kid]

While not part of the US/Confederate armies, the Bushwhackers and Jayhawkers of the Missouri/Kansas border country seem to have stuck with their Bowies. Rosa's "Age of the Gunfighter" has a picture of a band of Jayhawkers, two of them clearly wearing cutlery-handled Bowies, and a portrait of notorious Bushwhacker George Maddox with a studded, coffin-handled Bowie stuck in his belt. It's a studio portrait but he looks all business. The Remingtons in his hands (he has 2 more in his belt!), clearly show their bullets and caps.  Admittedly, Bushwhackers gloried in their flamboyant appearance, with long, "cavalier" hair, embroidered shirts and fancy boots, and the Bowies no doubt added to the spectacle.