Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Shotguns => Topic started by: Ghostface Charlie on October 01, 2012, 07:34:21 PM
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Howdy Folks,
After a year of buying, trading up, trading down, scrimping & saving, I just need a shotgun to complete my SASS "arsenal". I'm physically lightweight, and am hoping that a 20 ga. will do the trick. My local gun shop (who have been very good to me) has 3 coach gun prospects: a new 20 ga. Biakal for $299, a used 12 ga Biakal for $249 and a used "Pride Of Spain" 20 ga for $299. I'm not familiar with either of these brands, and a quick web-search gave poor reviews on Pride Of Spain firearms in general. My budget is around $250-300, and my question...can anyone tell me more about these shotguns, and my thinking of going 20 ga instead of 12 ga for SASS shooting. Any & all knowledgeable advice is welcome. Sincere thanks in advance for your help!
GFC
Also: I just received ownership of my Grandfather's 12 ga single shot. It's from the 1920's, and US made, with no ejectors. Would a single barrel gun be a true disadvantage?
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I feel that an ideal shotgun load for most purposes is about an ounce of shot over a load giving around 1200 fps. This is a perfect 16 gauge load. BUT; try to find ammo or components! I have some sixteens, and I know how hard it is!
Many 20 gauges are loaded these days with that same 16 ga. load, but so are 12 gauges. With the availability of 12 ga. discount ammo & universaly available components the twelve will end up the cheapest to feed, A bit of extra gun weight is no matter and it might soak up a bit of recoil.
Each to his own, but if the twelve feels right, I'd consider it.
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My experience has been that a 12 gauge using Winchesters Low noise/low recoil load has less felt recoil than a 20 gauge. Plus other 12 gauge ammo is available if needed. And ,yes you single barrel 12 gauge will work if you want to use it, but you will probably be bombarded with offers shotguns to use.
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Greetings My Good Charlie -
I have foiund tha tthe Baikal shotguns are very stout, and built like tanks. It is unlikely that you would ever wear one out, and
several places can gets parts - http://www.eaacorp.com/ is one.
here is a little article from shooting times on a baikal O/U:
http://www.shootingtimes.co.uk/guns/197256/Baikal_12bore_shotgun_test.html
"Neat workmanship
You do not buy a Baikal for fancy stockwork but for the quality of the steel parts. The Russians have for many years been excellent metallurgists.
It is worth remembering the factory which now makes Baikal shotguns once produced military firearms that were among the toughest in the world"
I would definitely choose a Baikal over the "pride of Spain" ..... :-X
However I would also go with the 12 ga instead of the 20 ga. You can get cheap factory "light trap" loads at Walmart that will not really bruise you. I get the 1 1/8 oz #7 1/2 and those work perfectly for me at CAS ranges as well as trap (also for close bunnies and land birds) and I really don't notice the recoil. I am told it's a "3 dram load" and kicks the same or less than the equivalent "3 dram load" out of a lighter 20 gauge. If the Baikal does not already have one, you can easily add a soft recoil pad and cover it with a leather butt-cover if the sight of rubber offends you :-)
You may also find in the future that the 12 ga is a tad more "versatile" with loads available from bruisingly heavy slug, to reduced recoil poofy-light 3/4 oz or even 5/8 oz loads!
as always, ymmv
good luck, have fun.
yhs
prof marvel
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To a fellow newbie,
I can say that the single barrel will work but it is very slow, I shot my first match with my dad's old 20ga Ithica single. I was slow but had a blast!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0plyg0OpqtY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0plyg0OpqtY)
I almost bought a Baikal for all the reasons already stated, it is a good gun for the money, but I got a 26" hammered Rossi for the cool factor and for future use in Classic Cowboy catagory.
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Gentlemen,
Sincere Thanks for your advice & insights. I'm gonna go with the 12 Gauge Biakal...
Kindest Regards,
Charlie
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Charlie, good choice. My first shotgun was a Baikal, and it served me well although it is now a backup as I prefer hammer guns. When you get it, you will find that the barrels will not stay all the way open which causes problems loading. There are new cocking levers available from "Papa Dave" that will solve this if you are handy with working on guns. Or lots of folks just send the gun to a 'smith for an action job which will also fix this issue. Most folks also defeat the automatic safety feature which turns the safety to a manual-only operation. However, the gun is totally usable as-is if you wish, with a little trick to keep the barrels open. When you push the action lever to the right to open the barrels, after they are all the way open to shuck the empties, hold the lever to the right with your thumb. This will prevent the barrels from partially closing while you reload.
edit 11/11/13: Oops, I meant hold the lever to the left with your thumb to keep the barrels all the way open.
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Unless your gunshop gives warraties on their used guns, it would be worth the extra $5000 to get th new Baikal over the used one. These guns have a good reputation among SASS shooters. The Spanish guns, not so much.
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I tried to post earlier, but I am in a remote slow internet area and I think it timed out.
I was going to add, that a field length gun would be able to go hunting with you or to trap or skeet sessions. You wouldn't need to buy an extra gun for those purposes if your gun budget was limited.
I see that your choices were specifically coach guns, or as I call 'em BARKEEPS GUNS, not real cowboy guns. Cutting off perfectly good guns has several drawbacks and I STRONGLY advise against it. If you want a shorty, a unfortunate fad among cowboy shooters, at least buy one in factory trim as some of the drawbacks are countered by the maker.
Remember; The prime directive in CAS is; - Have Fun! (But always remain safe.)
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Gentlemen,
I have made an error in my previous posts. The 12 and 20 gauge shotguns are not manufactured by Biakal, but by Century Arms, imported from China. They look and feel really "nice" but I have no experience with or knowledge of Chinese firearms. Does anyone in CAS-Land care to comment on Century's shotguns/coachguns?
Thanks,
Charlie :o
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You need to post a link so we can see what you are talking about. Like lots of other products from China some are great and some are junk.
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here is a link I should have posted:
http://gunner777.wordpress.com/2012/04/15/century-arms-coach-gun/
I could not find their home page. In fact there is very little on the web aout this company or their products.
They are made in China, at Zhang Zhou Machine works. I don't know much about the quality of Chinese firearms. I have heard that some Chinese factories treat their workers poorly, and hesitate to buy Chinese products for that reason...but I do need a shotgun.
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They are a suitable gun for CAS. Finish is ugly. The metal work is not well polished with lots of machine marks left esp. on the barrels. Wood is ok but not any thing fancy. Stock fit is good not great. Recoil pad is nice and functional but a leather cover makes it look better. Function is good. Hammers a bit stiff to cock but I have not had enough time to completely break it in.
CAS shotguns take a lot of abuse. They get dropped down on tables. Slammed open and shut. I don't spend a lot on my CAS shotguns. Got the Century Arms for a hammered double for Classic Cowboy and my other is a Steoger all blued double. I picked it up at a pawn shop for $200.00 out the door. It was in great shape with little use.
All said most of the CAS doubles are either China made or made in Eastern Europe. No sense in paying more than about $300- $350 for a good double for CAS.
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I second Cutter Carl, same opinion down the line. Ruff, tuff and somewhat ugly, should be strong like an Ox. It's heavier than my Stoeger and that eases the recoil some. The hammers slow me down a little but, make it more fun to shoot. At $250 it was a great buy. ;D
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Gentlemen,
Thank once again for your sage advice. I've never gotten an inaccurate answer from anyone on this forum. Ya'll are a great bunch of folks!
Charlie
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GC, I am not implying ::) anything, but the comments from very good shooters are real. BTW, this site has a lot of interesting and eductional stuff (that means material ;D)
http://marauder.homestead.com/files/Reducing_Shotgun_Recoil.htm
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Unless your gunshop gives warraties on their used guns, it would be worth the extra $5000 to get th new Baikal over the used one. These guns have a good reputation among SASS shooters. The Spanish guns, not so much.
bit spendy for a start up CAS gun don't ya think
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Yeah ! Bugs you need to go up and modify your $5000 to the $50.00 You meant ;)
I'll echo Cutter Carl comment, I've seen him use the Century.... in fact there are 3 in our NCOWS Posse'
Carl's , Capt'n John's , and MT Chamber's all have given good service. @ $300 new and they are tank tough ...
I have a TTn ... if you find one they are about $550 ( another Tank tough gun ! )
The next step is the Wyatt Earp, (Italy) ( we are talking Mule ear Hammer guns ) and these are about $1250.00
Box lock like the Stoeger ( Brazil ) is in the $400 range + or - and the Baikal ( Russia ) about the same.
The Century @ $300 is about as good a deal NIB as you'll find.