Sales of percussion conversions?

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Conversionistas,

I think I saw that if one(nobody we know) converts his or her percussion revolver to handle cartridges by changing the frame of the gun, it can't be resold. Asking for a friend.

Rev. Chase

[Hair Trigger Jim]

Howdy,

This is not intended as legal advice, and I am not your lawyer.      It's just my understanding of the law about an activity I've never engaged in.

It's not that a firearm you made can't ever be resold; it's that you can't make a firearm for the purpose of reselling it.  However, if you sell it, you may have to prove that you didn't do it for resale; and even if you can prove that, you may have to gamble on your friendly local ATF agent/prosecutor/judge/jury doing the right thing.

First, under federal law, altering the frame of a percussion revolver so that it can be loaded with centerfire cartridges is creating a firearm.

Second, federal law requires a license to create firearms for resale.  It does not require a license to create firearms for yourself.  I'm sure you know this much already.

Federal law does not specifically say that you can never resell a firearm from your own collection if you made it for yourself.  But you would want some way to prove that you made it for yourself, not just that you made it and sold it a few months later.  An example might be pictures of you using the firearm for CAS matches for the last few years, with it evident from those pictures that the modification to the frame was done a few years ago and you continued to use the modified firearm.  I'm not saying that's necessary or even that that's sufficient; it's just an example of what might convince an ATF agent that you manufactured the firearm for yourself and only later decided to sell it for an appropriate reason.  And again, the ATF agent/prosecutor/judge may or may not understand the law, and may or may not be convinced by your evidence even if you're in the right.

And of course, state and local law may vary, and may prohibit something that federal law does not prohibit.

[Major 2]

In my case, FFL Gary Barnes, http://cartridgeconversion.com.  did the work on my donor gun.
I've had it completed for over 10 years....

If it sells it will be shipped FFL to FFL.   I think that should quell any grievances. 

Or am I smoking rope 

[Advertising]

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Thanks Guys,

That kind of resolves the issue that my friend was concerned about.

Rev. Chase

[Coffinmaker]

  Reverend Chase 

First, Photographs of the original Owner/Builder, or even some swell video is absolutely useless.  When an individual converts a percussion revolver to fire cartridges by altering the frame, that individual has manufactured a firearm.  Without a license.  It is completely legal for one to do so, for your own use.  It becomes yours FOREVER!!  Keep reading below   

UNLESS:  Find your friendly FFL holder whom knows what he or she is doing and understands the requirements to register your conversion with BATFE.  Once registered and approved, you can then legally transfer the conversion THRU AN FFL legally.  The weight of the paper should equal the weight of the Conversion.

Kindly remember, BATFE does NOT have a sense of Humor.  None.  BATFE does not take prisoners.  Poke that Bear at your own risk.

Should you not wish to jump thru the BATFE hoops, the ONLY legal way to dispose of your carefully crafted conversion is to CUT UP the frame and then sell off the parts.

[Major 2]

what if an FFL, say Kenny Howell or Gary Barnes, does the conversions?

from the ATF webpage...

Privately Made Firearms

Privately made firearms (PMFs) are firearms (including a frame or receiver) that have been completed, assembled or otherwise produced by a person other than a licensed manufacturer. PMFs are also made without a serial number placed by a licensed manufacturer at the time the firearm was produced. However, not all PMFs are illegal and not all firearms are required to have a serial number. ATF

and

When acquiring unmarked privately made firearms (PMFs), what is the federal firearms licensee (FFL) required to mark on the PMF?
Licensees must legibly and conspicuously identify each PMF received or otherwise acquired (including from a personal collection) not later than the seventh day following the date of receipt or other acquisition, or before the date of disposition (including to a personal collection), whichever is sooner. PMFs must be identified by placing or causing to be placed under the licensee’s direct supervision, an individual serial number on the frame or receiver, which must not duplicate any serial number placed by the licensee on any other firearm. The serial number must begin with the licensee’s abbreviated FFL number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to a unique identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., ‘‘12345678-[unique identification number]’’. The serial number must be placed in a manner otherwise in accordance with 478.92, including the requirements that the serial number be at the minimum size and depth, and not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed.

[Coffinmaker]

If an FFL such as Kenny Howell or Gary Barnes goes the conversion, I would expect that individual to also have a license to Manufacture, and has done the required registration paperwork at the time of manufacture.  Or:  SHOULD HAVE.

If those individuals are NOT License'd Manufacturers, FFL not withstanding, they may well be in DEEP Doo Doo if challenged by BATFE.

It has been quite a while since I held my FFL and I don't necessarily remember ALL of the tiny but very important details.  There may or may not be ANYBODY on the forums truly qualified to answer ALL the questions that arise.  It is similar to the INCORRECT opinion all you have to do is ship the original Percussion Cylinder and it is still a percussion revolver.  FALSE!!  The FIREARM is the frame with the loading port.  The cylinder, cartridge or otherwise is seen by BATFE as just a "PART" and as such is not subject to the NFA.  If you're not talking Nose to Nose to a knowledgeable FFL holder with the book in front of you, or BATFE, WALK AWAY.  Kindly remember, you're the one perhaps going to jail.  Not the Idiot know nothing.

I'm a light house - Your Call

[cheatin charlie]

I just had a thought about privately manufactured firearms bad idea I know.  People here are saying it is illegal to manufacture to sell what about gifting?  If a person manufactured a firearm at home and used it for personal use for years and then because of old age cannot use it anymore could it be gifted to a friend legally.  You could enclose a notarized letter stating the reason for the gift so at least your friend would have legal defense for having it.  Just a question that needs an answer.

[Hair Trigger Jim]

It's illegal to manufacture a firearm as a gift without the proper license, just like manufacturing one for sale.

It is not illegal to later give away a firearm made for personal use, just like it is not illegal to later sell a firearm made for personal use, so long as all applicable laws and regulations are complied with.

But the intent when making a firearm for personal use had better be for personal use, not for personal use and/or sale/gifting.  If an unlicensed person isn't pretty sure he (or she) is keeping the firearm he makes, he probably shouldn't be making it himself.  He could end up in trouble later.  And even if someone's right, that never guarantees a win against the government, and even winning can be very expensive (and may have to be done from jail, where it's even more difficult).

And again, I'm not your lawyer and this is not legal advice, just general information.   

[Coffinmaker]

  HiYa Charlie 

Nope.  Cannot "gift" an illegally Manufactured Firearm.  Unless the original maker of said firearm goes thru ALL the hoops of the BATFE TO MAKE IT LEGITIMATE, the firearm is forever illegal to possess.  Doesn't matter how you got it, illegal to have it.  Has to be turn'd in or destroyed.

Unlike many other governmental positions, BATFE does not leave "get-a-rounds."  It be cut and dried.

As I have stated before (many times):  It is perfectly legal to build a Conversion Firearm for your own use.  It is Yours FOREVER.  UNLESS:  You jump thru the BATFE hoops to legalize it, thru an FFL.  You CANNOT dispose of the firearm in any way, other than destruction, without going thru the BATFE hoops.  Remember, the conversion/converted cylinder is just a "PART."  No harm, no foul.  The frame, with a loading channel IS THE FIREARM.

PLUS ONE for Hair Trigger Jim.

Got his posted while I was still typing.  Jim says EXACTLY the same thing only with a bit more eloquence.

[Texas John Ringo]

You can register a kit gun, 80% gun or a gun you modified, etc. You have to apply for a serial number with the batf and then engrave it on the gun. The fee is $35.00 for the number .

[Major 2]

You can register a kit gun, 80% gun or a gun you modified, etc. You have to apply for a serial number with the batf and then engrave it on the gun. The fee is $35.00 for the number .

Can you link to those BATF guidelines ? 

[Texas John Ringo]

I can't find it again. It was on the atf website, but I can't find it now.

[Professor Marvel]

here is a link to a law office,who may or may not be correct.

https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Alert---Privately-Made-Firearms-Under-ATF-s-New--Frame-or-Receiver--Rule.html?soid=1115396448343&aid=pTge87ZwDXM

[Coffinmaker]

As I read the article provided by The Perfesser, it (the article) does not address the conversion of Percussion Revolvers converted to Cartridge which may be returned to Percussion by changing out the cylinder but have a cartridge loading channel cut thru the recoil shield.

I now feel I may have to do more research.  It use to be cut and dried.  It is perhaps now "grey" and I do not want to provide obsolete information

Stay Tuna

[Coffinmaker]

OK.  I don't have a definitive answer.  Lots of "Grey" area and a lot depends on your particular state regulations.  I cannot begin to address that bucket of worms.  But:

A KIRST KONVERTER or R&D conversion cylinder are classified by BATFE as a "Black Powder Part."  If the frame is unaltered (R&D) and the Percussion Cylinder is re-installed, no harm no foul.  If the frame is altered for cartridge loading and a Kirst Konverter is installed, you have manufactured a firearm and it must be registered to be sold as such.  If the Kirst is removed, and the Percussion Cylinder is re-installed, it is again a percussion revolver, no harm, no foul.  The Conversion PARTS may NOT be sold together.  Separate packaging is required.  SUBJECT TO STATE REGULATIONS.

I AIN'T A LAWYER.  I cannot get a definitive answer from BATFE.  The folks I talked to simply didn't know and would not commit.  You pays yer money and takes yer chances.  If BATFE decides you have done wrong, you WILL need a Lawyer and you will be in court for perhaps a long time.

I'm a Lighthouse - Your call.

[45 Dragoon]

Good read perfesser!!

[River City John]

You boys must be doing a lot of reloading on the clock to bother with cutting a loading channel.

Easier to just leave them stock and pop empty cases out at the unloading table after some basic disassembly of the cylinder, regardless whether Colt or a Remington.

Never need to fear the BATFE bite.

[Major 2]

Welp ! I'm not a Lawyer, played one in a Movie once...really ! 

Green B. Jameson, chief engineer of the Alamo, son of Benjamin Jameson of New Jersey, was born in Kentucky or Tennessee in 1809. His grandfather, John Jameson, was an early lieutenant governor of Virginia. Jameson, a lawyer, moved to Texas in 1830 and settled in Brazoria. He took part in the siege of Bexar in 1835, then remained in Bexar under the command of Lt. Col. James C. Neill as chief engineer of the garrison occupying the town and the Alamo. Jameson's correspondence with Sam Houston in the weeks before the Alamo siege began gave detailed descriptions of the Alamo's defenses. On the first day of the siege, February 23, 1836, Jameson was sent by James Bowie as a messenger to the Mexican forces. He died in the battle of the Alamo on March 6, 1836.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094628/fullcredits


Now, If I can read the BATF OFFICAL document... what states one can cut an Italian BP pistol frame for a loading gate, GET an approval and accompanying serial number for that privately made firearm.  And Uncle Sam OK Dokey in WRITTING... then SNAP !
I suspect it isn't so easy or cheap as $35... being as how a Type 07 – Manufacturer of Firearms is $150
The Type 7 FFL allows the making of firearms with the intent to sell. It also allows the holder to sell other firearms and manufacture ammunition. This is the second most common type of FFL because a Type 7 FFL allows a licensee to make guns as well as buy/sell firearms.

and then there is the Special Occupational Taxpayer (SOT).
Which you'll need to Sell and collect tax... and I'll bet State & local fees as well...

SOT Registration Cost

FFL Type 07   $500   - $1000






 

[Professor Marvel]

Ok. As in all things pertaining to the govt, there is a path to follow.

The BATF website is an excellent resource, but is convoluted to follow.
I could not find where the BATF explicitly references “antique non firearms” ( ie the designation
Of a cap and ball revolver) into a cartridge gun.

But:

Cutting a loading port into a C&B replica now Permanently Modifies a percussion revolver into a cartridge
gun and  qualifies as a PMF.

 An 07 license (manuf@cturing license)  is not required for a PMF.
This is because ithe PMF is defined as a Personal use firearm, not intended for resale at the time
Of manufacture, and a PMF is not made in the numbers that would qualify as “manufacture for
Significant income” whatever that may be. I suspect, but cannot prove , that if a fellow built up
6 or 8 in a year, and hung onto them for a year or so and shot them , that qualifies as “personal use”.
I suspect, but cannot prove, that making one a day for a month WOULD RAISE THE FLAG as
Manufacturing “not for personal use”.  BUT I am not the guy who makes that determination.

There is no reqmt for a serial number on a PMF UNTIL it shows up for sale or repair or shipping at an
FFL holder.

That FFL holder then is required to permanently place a serial on the PMF.
There are recommended guidelines , and specific requirements (ie so big, so deep, etc)  for the FFL
to follow. The guidleines include the FFL holders FFL number.

At this time, for BATF reqmts,  if a person wants to make a PMF, that person can put the serial number of their
choice on it as long as it is unique, and follows the requirements. For the number of their choice, in the past,
It must be doen before the PMF is touched by an FFL holder. OR they can send it off to an FFL who offers
serialization as a service.This info is from the people who like to build their own “AR lower”  or “1911 lower”
based PMF, they have been doing this for  Some time and have been working with the BATF and or following
along and providing input/feedback with/to BATF offices involved and congress critters.

Howver, the relatively newly published BATF info may change that.

One suggested form of serial number is “your state, your initials, current date” .
 If one uses yyymmdd, since the date Increases by one daily, one is pretty much covered

For example,  … arizona, prof marvel, today, would be:
“AZPM20240123”
Stamped or engraved permanently at least 1/8 inch high and at least 3/32 deep (i think) in metal.

The only reference to “applying  for a serial number and paying a fee” appears to be California, where the
User must apply to a California govt branch, pay a fee, and recieves a serial number to be engraved on the firearm.
And that serial number and description goes in the Calafornia State Book of All Knowledge under rhe User’s name.

And the user is then taxed relentlessly and has the number of the beast engraved upon their forehead.
Oops .. is legally on the books in California.

Other states will/may vary even moreso.

Remember…
-When dealing with stuff like this, contact a lawyer who specializes in “this stuff”, esp in your state.
- you get what you pay for
- contact the BATF and get the answer In Writing.
- Preserve the BATF letter in lucite forever, and keep copies with the PMF in question
- I am not a lawyer
- I read a lot
- I participated in lots of contract law and govt contracts and patent law and small business law,
       so I can safely say I have professional experience at being confused.

- as always, YMMV

Hope this helps
Prof Professional confusicator