Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => STORM => Topic started by: Reverend P. Babcock Chase on January 09, 2024, 03:01:20 PM
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Howdy Conversionistas,
I think I saw that if one(nobody we know) converts his or her percussion revolver to handle cartridges by changing the frame of the gun, it can't be resold. Asking for a friend.
Rev. Chase
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Howdy,
This is not intended as legal advice, and I am not your lawyer. ;D It's just my understanding of the law about an activity I've never engaged in.
It's not that a firearm you made can't ever be resold; it's that you can't make a firearm for the purpose of reselling it. However, if you sell it, you may have to prove that you didn't do it for resale; and even if you can prove that, you may have to gamble on your friendly local ATF agent/prosecutor/judge/jury doing the right thing.
First, under federal law, altering the frame of a percussion revolver so that it can be loaded with centerfire cartridges is creating a firearm.
Second, federal law requires a license to create firearms for resale. It does not require a license to create firearms for yourself. I'm sure you know this much already.
Federal law does not specifically say that you can never resell a firearm from your own collection if you made it for yourself. But you would want some way to prove that you made it for yourself, not just that you made it and sold it a few months later. An example might be pictures of you using the firearm for CAS matches for the last few years, with it evident from those pictures that the modification to the frame was done a few years ago and you continued to use the modified firearm. I'm not saying that's necessary or even that that's sufficient; it's just an example of what might convince an ATF agent that you manufactured the firearm for yourself and only later decided to sell it for an appropriate reason. And again, the ATF agent/prosecutor/judge may or may not understand the law, and may or may not be convinced by your evidence even if you're in the right.
And of course, state and local law may vary, and may prohibit something that federal law does not prohibit.
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In my case, FFL Gary Barnes, http://cartridgeconversion.com. did the work on my donor gun.
I've had it completed for over 10 years....
If it sells it will be shipped FFL to FFL. I think that should quell any grievances.
Or am I smoking rope ???
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Thanks Guys,
That kind of resolves the issue that my friend was concerned about.
Rev. Chase
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:) Reverend Chase ;)
First, Photographs of the original Owner/Builder, or even some swell video is absolutely useless. When an individual converts a percussion revolver to fire cartridges by altering the frame, that individual has manufactured a firearm. Without a license. It is completely legal for one to do so, for your own use. It becomes yours FOREVER!! Keep reading below
UNLESS: Find your friendly FFL holder whom knows what he or she is doing and understands the requirements to register your conversion with BATFE. Once registered and approved, you can then legally transfer the conversion THRU AN FFL legally. The weight of the paper should equal the weight of the Conversion.
Kindly remember, BATFE does NOT have a sense of Humor. None. BATFE does not take prisoners. Poke that Bear at your own risk.
Should you not wish to jump thru the BATFE hoops, the ONLY legal way to dispose of your carefully crafted conversion is to CUT UP the frame and then sell off the parts.
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what if an FFL, say Kenny Howell or Gary Barnes, does the conversions?
from the ATF webpage...
Privately Made Firearms
Privately made firearms (PMFs) are firearms (including a frame or receiver) that have been completed, assembled or otherwise produced by a person other than a licensed manufacturer. PMFs are also made without a serial number placed by a licensed manufacturer at the time the firearm was produced. However, not all PMFs are illegal and not all firearms are required to have a serial number. ATF
and
When acquiring unmarked privately made firearms (PMFs), what is the federal firearms licensee (FFL) required to mark on the PMF?
Licensees must legibly and conspicuously identify each PMF received or otherwise acquired (including from a personal collection) not later than the seventh day following the date of receipt or other acquisition, or before the date of disposition (including to a personal collection), whichever is sooner. PMFs must be identified by placing or causing to be placed under the licensee’s direct supervision, an individual serial number on the frame or receiver, which must not duplicate any serial number placed by the licensee on any other firearm. The serial number must begin with the licensee’s abbreviated FFL number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to a unique identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., ‘‘12345678-[unique identification number]’’. The serial number must be placed in a manner otherwise in accordance with 478.92, including the requirements that the serial number be at the minimum size and depth, and not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed.
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If an FFL such as Kenny Howell or Gary Barnes goes the conversion, I would expect that individual to also have a license to Manufacture, and has done the required registration paperwork at the time of manufacture. Or: SHOULD HAVE.
If those individuals are NOT License'd Manufacturers, FFL not withstanding, they may well be in DEEP Doo Doo if challenged by BATFE.
It has been quite a while since I held my FFL and I don't necessarily remember ALL of the tiny but very important details. There may or may not be ANYBODY on the forums truly qualified to answer ALL the questions that arise. It is similar to the INCORRECT opinion all you have to do is ship the original Percussion Cylinder and it is still a percussion revolver. FALSE!! The FIREARM is the frame with the loading port. The cylinder, cartridge or otherwise is seen by BATFE as just a "PART" and as such is not subject to the NFA. If you're not talking Nose to Nose to a knowledgeable FFL holder with the book in front of you, or BATFE, WALK AWAY. Kindly remember, you're the one perhaps going to jail. Not the Idiot know nothing.
I'm a light house - Your Call
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I just had a thought about privately manufactured firearms bad idea I know. People here are saying it is illegal to manufacture to sell what about gifting? If a person manufactured a firearm at home and used it for personal use for years and then because of old age cannot use it anymore could it be gifted to a friend legally. You could enclose a notarized letter stating the reason for the gift so at least your friend would have legal defense for having it. Just a question that needs an answer.
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It's illegal to manufacture a firearm as a gift without the proper license, just like manufacturing one for sale.
It is not illegal to later give away a firearm made for personal use, just like it is not illegal to later sell a firearm made for personal use, so long as all applicable laws and regulations are complied with.
But the intent when making a firearm for personal use had better be for personal use, not for personal use and/or sale/gifting. If an unlicensed person isn't pretty sure he (or she) is keeping the firearm he makes, he probably shouldn't be making it himself. He could end up in trouble later. And even if someone's right, that never guarantees a win against the government, and even winning can be very expensive (and may have to be done from jail, where it's even more difficult).
And again, I'm not your lawyer and this is not legal advice, just general information. :)
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:) HiYa Charlie ;)
Nope. Cannot "gift" an illegally Manufactured Firearm. Unless the original maker of said firearm goes thru ALL the hoops of the BATFE TO MAKE IT LEGITIMATE, the firearm is forever illegal to possess. Doesn't matter how you got it, illegal to have it. Has to be turn'd in or destroyed.
Unlike many other governmental positions, BATFE does not leave "get-a-rounds." It be cut and dried.
As I have stated before (many times): It is perfectly legal to build a Conversion Firearm for your own use. It is Yours FOREVER. UNLESS: You jump thru the BATFE hoops to legalize it, thru an FFL. You CANNOT dispose of the firearm in any way, other than destruction, without going thru the BATFE hoops. Remember, the conversion/converted cylinder is just a "PART." No harm, no foul. The frame, with a loading channel IS THE FIREARM.
PLUS ONE for Hair Trigger Jim.
Got his posted while I was still typing. Jim says EXACTLY the same thing only with a bit more eloquence.
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You can register a kit gun, 80% gun or a gun you modified, etc. You have to apply for a serial number with the batf and then engrave it on the gun. The fee is $35.00 for the number .
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You can register a kit gun, 80% gun or a gun you modified, etc. You have to apply for a serial number with the batf and then engrave it on the gun. The fee is $35.00 for the number .
Can you link to those BATF guidelines ?
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I can't find it again. It was on the atf website, but I can't find it now.
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here is a link to a law office,who may or may not be correct.
https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Alert---Privately-Made-Firearms-Under-ATF-s-New--Frame-or-Receiver--Rule.html?soid=1115396448343&aid=pTge87ZwDXM
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As I read the article provided by The Perfesser, it (the article) does not address the conversion of Percussion Revolvers converted to Cartridge which may be returned to Percussion by changing out the cylinder but have a cartridge loading channel cut thru the recoil shield.
I now feel I may have to do more research. It use to be cut and dried. It is perhaps now "grey" and I do not want to provide obsolete information
Stay Tuna
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OK. I don't have a definitive answer. Lots of "Grey" area and a lot depends on your particular state regulations. I cannot begin to address that bucket of worms. But:
A KIRST KONVERTER or R&D conversion cylinder are classified by BATFE as a "Black Powder Part." If the frame is unaltered (R&D) and the Percussion Cylinder is re-installed, no harm no foul. If the frame is altered for cartridge loading and a Kirst Konverter is installed, you have manufactured a firearm and it must be registered to be sold as such. If the Kirst is removed, and the Percussion Cylinder is re-installed, it is again a percussion revolver, no harm, no foul. The Conversion PARTS may NOT be sold together. Separate packaging is required. SUBJECT TO STATE REGULATIONS.
I AIN'T A LAWYER. I cannot get a definitive answer from BATFE. The folks I talked to simply didn't know and would not commit. You pays yer money and takes yer chances. If BATFE decides you have done wrong, you WILL need a Lawyer and you will be in court for perhaps a long time.
I'm a Lighthouse - Your call.
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Good read perfesser!!
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You boys must be doing a lot of reloading on the clock to bother with cutting a loading channel.
Easier to just leave them stock and pop empty cases out at the unloading table after some basic disassembly of the cylinder, regardless whether Colt or a Remington.
Never need to fear the BATFE bite.
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Welp ! I'm not a Lawyer, played one in a Movie once...really ! :D
Green B. Jameson, chief engineer of the Alamo, son of Benjamin Jameson of New Jersey, was born in Kentucky or Tennessee in 1809. His grandfather, John Jameson, was an early lieutenant governor of Virginia. Jameson, a lawyer, moved to Texas in 1830 and settled in Brazoria. He took part in the siege of Bexar in 1835, then remained in Bexar under the command of Lt. Col. James C. Neill as chief engineer of the garrison occupying the town and the Alamo. Jameson's correspondence with Sam Houston in the weeks before the Alamo siege began gave detailed descriptions of the Alamo's defenses. On the first day of the siege, February 23, 1836, Jameson was sent by James Bowie as a messenger to the Mexican forces. He died in the battle of the Alamo on March 6, 1836.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094628/fullcredits
Now, If I can read the BATF OFFICAL document... what states one can cut an Italian BP pistol frame for a loading gate, GET an approval and accompanying serial number for that privately made firearm. And Uncle Sam OK Dokey in WRITTING... then SNAP !
I suspect it isn't so easy or cheap as $35... being as how a Type 07 – Manufacturer of Firearms is $150
The Type 7 FFL allows the making of firearms with the intent to sell. It also allows the holder to sell other firearms and manufacture ammunition. This is the second most common type of FFL because a Type 7 FFL allows a licensee to make guns as well as buy/sell firearms.
and then there is the Special Occupational Taxpayer (SOT).
Which you'll need to Sell and collect tax... and I'll bet State & local fees as well...
SOT Registration Cost
FFL Type 07 $500 - $1000
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Ok. As in all things pertaining to the govt, there is a path to follow.
The BATF website is an excellent resource, but is convoluted to follow.
I could not find where the BATF explicitly references “antique non firearms” ( ie the designation
Of a cap and ball revolver) into a cartridge gun.
But:
Cutting a loading port into a C&B replica now Permanently Modifies a percussion revolver into a cartridge
gun and qualifies as a PMF.
An 07 license (manuf@cturing license) is not required for a PMF.
This is because ithe PMF is defined as a Personal use firearm, not intended for resale at the time
Of manufacture, and a PMF is not made in the numbers that would qualify as “manufacture for
Significant income” whatever that may be. I suspect, but cannot prove , that if a fellow built up
6 or 8 in a year, and hung onto them for a year or so and shot them , that qualifies as “personal use”.
I suspect, but cannot prove, that making one a day for a month WOULD RAISE THE FLAG as
Manufacturing “not for personal use”. BUT I am not the guy who makes that determination.
There is no reqmt for a serial number on a PMF UNTIL it shows up for sale or repair or shipping at an
FFL holder.
That FFL holder then is required to permanently place a serial on the PMF.
There are recommended guidelines , and specific requirements (ie so big, so deep, etc) for the FFL
to follow. The guidleines include the FFL holders FFL number.
At this time, for BATF reqmts, if a person wants to make a PMF, that person can put the serial number of their
choice on it as long as it is unique, and follows the requirements. For the number of their choice, in the past,
It must be doen before the PMF is touched by an FFL holder. OR they can send it off to an FFL who offers
serialization as a service.This info is from the people who like to build their own “AR lower” or “1911 lower”
based PMF, they have been doing this for Some time and have been working with the BATF and or following
along and providing input/feedback with/to BATF offices involved and congress critters.
Howver, the relatively newly published BATF info may change that.
One suggested form of serial number is “your state, your initials, current date” .
If one uses yyymmdd, since the date Increases by one daily, one is pretty much covered
For example, … arizona, prof marvel, today, would be:
“AZPM20240123”
Stamped or engraved permanently at least 1/8 inch high and at least 3/32 deep (i think) in metal.
The only reference to “applying for a serial number and paying a fee” appears to be California, where the
User must apply to a California govt branch, pay a fee, and recieves a serial number to be engraved on the firearm.
And that serial number and description goes in the Calafornia State Book of All Knowledge under rhe User’s name.
And the user is then taxed relentlessly and has the number of the beast engraved upon their forehead.
Oops .. is legally on the books in California.
Other states will/may vary even moreso.
Remember…
-When dealing with stuff like this, contact a lawyer who specializes in “this stuff”, esp in your state.
- you get what you pay for
- contact the BATF and get the answer In Writing.
- Preserve the BATF letter in lucite forever, and keep copies with the PMF in question
- I am not a lawyer
- I read a lot
- I participated in lots of contract law and govt contracts and patent law and small business law,
so I can safely say I have professional experience at being confused.
- as always, YMMV
Hope this helps
Prof Professional confusicator
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:) Thanks Prof M ;)
That takes us back to what I thought I knew from my sordid past. Same same. You cut a Loading Channel in a Percussion Revolver = You have manufactured a firearm. A "PMF" if you will. If you remove the Cartridge Cylinder, and ALL the adjacent "Parts" the frame IS the firearm, just as the lower to a 1911 is a firearm. What effect the Serial Number on the Frame from original manufacture?? Who Knows?? As I said before, I was unable to get a definitive answer. When BATFE is unsure or confused, their "knee jerk" response is to prosecute and let the court figure it out.
So I return to my long held belief. You cut a Cartridge Loading Channel in a Percussion Revolver and you have Manufactured a Firearm. Unless you jump thru ALL the BATFE hoops, it's yours forever. You cannot give it away, you cannot bequeath it. It can only be held by the individual who originally manufactured it. That frame MUST be destroyed.
Poking BATFE with a stick is a Fools Erand. Believe It.
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Sorry but cutting the loading port does not create a firearm. No way, no how. It does not permanently make it a cartridge gun. You can cut the loading port and go right back to shooting the percussion cylinder. One does not preclude the other.
Installing the cartridge cylinder is what creates a firearm. You can do that willy nilly as an individual.
The cartridge conversion can be sold as a cartridge conversion as long as it's treated as a modern firearm. They already have a serial number. No need to involve the ATF. It's not an illegally manufactured firearm.
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Howdy Graveyard,
Your reasoned and logical explanation of the conversion situation is crystal clear. Thus it would fall on deaf ears at the BATF. I agree with you on all points, but fear that it would provide no protection when the G Men came calling.
Rev. Chase
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Howdy Graveyard,
Your reasoned and logical explanation of the conversion situation is crystal clear. Thus it would fall on deaf ears at the BATF. I agree with you on all points, but fear that it would provide no protection when the G Men came calling.
Rev. Chase
How do you figure? This is exactly how the gunsmiths who build these guns treat them.
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Howdy Graveyard,
One must remember that what makes sense seems to have no relevance to the BATF. Once they define what they think is "manufacturing a gun", they use that rather than any reasonable definition. Thus just the slight modification of a percussion recoil shield to them is a big deal.
I'd rather they used your approach; however, they are rarely deterred by logic, preferring to wallow in their own bureaucratic double speak to confound free thinking citizens.
Rev. Chase
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One must remember that what makes sense seems to have no relevance to the BATF. Once they define what they think is "manufacturing a gun", they use that rather than any reasonable definition. Thus just the slight modification of a percussion recoil shield to them is a big deal.
Like I said, that is simply not true. If it is, please provide a citation.
You boys must be doing a lot of reloading on the clock to bother with cutting a loading channel.
Easier to just leave them stock and pop empty cases out at the unloading table after some basic disassembly of the cylinder, regardless whether Colt or a Remington.
Never need to fear the BATFE bite.
Kinda hard for the ejector to work without cutting a loading port and if I had to take the thing apart to reload it, I wouldn't bother. No need to fear the ATF whatsoever. You know how many of these things Kirst sells???
(https://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsvi/large/IMG_3070b.jpg)
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That is the point so far, I've seen nothing in Black & White by the ATF, and I have looked.
I would not care to test it, nor would I use one's thoughts or interpolation as to what is implied.
as the man said, "Your Call, we are a lighthouse!"
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That is the point so far, I've seen nothing in Black & White by the ATF, and I have looked.
I would not care to test it, nor would I use one's thoughts or interpolation as to what is implied.
I'm fairly certain that guy in Texas has been round and round with the ATF about this. Else he'd probably do things differently.
IMHO, people take the idea of "modifying the frame to accept cartridges" to mean more than it does in this context. Yes, it's permanent but that modification alone does not make it a cartridge gun. It still functions as a percussion gun. Taking their words and the statute at face value, I'm comfortable with my assessment.
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OK ! :)
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:) Graveyard Jack ;)
I can almost agree with you. "ALMOST" But you're wrong. When you Permanently Alter a Percussion Frame to accept cartridges you have Manufactured a firearm. It is now and has been perfectly legal for you to do so. No argument. Taking the Conversion cylinder out does not change the fact that the frame has been permanently altered for cartridges.
There have only been about four guys that I know of who commercially built conversions. Jay Strite - Licensed. Kenny Howell - Licensed. Robert Millington - Licensed. Gary Barnes (The guy in Texas) - I don't know.
BATFE classification of a conversion Cylinder is a "Black Powder Part" no harm no foul. This includes the Howell Old West Conversion two piece cylinders, the Howell style cylinders from Taylors and Co., and Kirst Konverters. Legal to manufacture, legal to sell (Check your State Regulations). What you do with it after you get it is on your own hook. the manufacturer has NO responsibility for what you do with your "Part." If the frame isn't altered and you use a Howell type cylinder, it is only a firearm with the cylinder in the frame. Put the Percussion cylinder back in, Percussion gun and BATFE classifies it as non-firearm. It makes no difference what so ever how many Konverters Kirst has sold. It falls on WHAT YOU DO WITH IT.
Until YOU can show a written determination from BATFE, or a court case that has been won, your "No Way No How" is just so much hot air. You are welcome to your opinion. It is, after all, Yours. I cannot disagree with your logic. Except, your logic has ZERO to dow with the way BATFE applies their regulations.
If you wish to emulate The Man From Lamancha(sp) and tilt at windmills, go for it. I held my FFL for 25 years before I retired. I NEVER built conversions for other than myself. Poking BATFE with a stick is A FOOLS ERRAND no mater how wright you think you are. BATFE has the option to declare your conversion a PMF unless the maker registered it and transferred it on the proper forms.
Your Move. We Are a Lighthouse.
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:) Graveyard Jack ;)
I can almost agree with you. "ALMOST" But you're wrong. When you Permanently Alter a Percussion Frame to accept cartridges you have Manufactured a firearm.
According to whom?
Think about it, permanent or not, cutting the loading port does not make it a cartridge firearm. It's still a percussion gun and will function as a percussion gun, albeit with a large capping port. Physically installing the cylinder is what makes it a cartridge firearm and that is not permanent. YOU do that as an individual, which is perfectly legal, unless you're doing it as a money making endeavor.
The license is irrelevant in this context. If cutting the loading port made it a modern firearm, they wouldn't be able to send it directly back to you AS a percussion gun. It would have to be transferred through an FFL. If it's a Howell or a Millington and the conversion is permanent, then it would have to be transferred as a modern firearm. Just as the Howell was I bought last year. Because the conversion ring is permanently attached to the frame and there is no percussion cylinder. Not because it has a loading port.
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According to whom?
Think about it, permanent or not, cutting the loading port does not make it a cartridge firearm. It's still a percussion gun and will function as a percussion gun, albeit with a large capping port. Physically installing the cylinder is what makes it a cartridge firearm and that is not permanent. YOU do that as an individual, which is perfectly legal, unless you're doing it as a money making endeavor.
The license is irrelevant in this context. If cutting the loading port made it a modern firearm, they wouldn't be able to send it directly back to you AS a percussion gun. It would have to be transferred through an FFL. If it's a Howell or a Millington and the conversion is permanent, then it would have to be transferred as a modern firearm. Just as the Howell was I bought last year. Because the conversion ring is permanently attached to the frame and there is no percussion cylinder. Not because it has a loading port.
Sir
You are misconstruing and or misunderstanding the issue.
Once a loading port is cut on a percussion frame, According to the BATF you have manufactured a PMF.
it no longer matters which cylinder you put on the frame.
The defining issue is “permanently modifying” what was previously considered a nonfirearm.
You are apparrently unaware that the BATF shut down several airsoft gun manufacturors because one
BATF technician was able to put real parts in different airsoft guns and make them fire one cartridge.
According the the BATF, “the frame is the firearm”
This is exactly the same as an “unfinished” 80 percent 1911 frame.
As long as the frame does not have certain holes or rails cut, it is a chunk of metal.
Once a person drills the holes and cuts the rails, it is now legally a firearm.
In this case a PMF.
It does not require a serial number until it goes up for sale or thru the hands of An FFL holder.
Cutting a loading port in a percussion revolver is the same thing to the BATF.
As far as I know at this time, The BATF and/or Courts have not produced a specific ruling regarding percusion to cartridge conversions.
Until someone request a letter or ruling, or the BATF decides to chase someone down, the entire issue
Is a dangerous grey area.
It does not matter what or how “some” gunsmiths shipped modified frames - it is an undecided area that
Has not yet been clearly decided either by the BATF or the courts.
Apparently Howells has made a similar statement:
“ This conversion cylinder is classified as a “part” by the BATF, and No FFL is required to purchase or ship this product. Once the port has been cut in the frame, it is considered a permanent modification of the revolver and is therefore now classified as a “FIREARM,” and all Federal Regulations shall apply.”
Found here
https://howellarms.com/product/uberti-steel-1858-army-45-lc-6-round-gated-conversion-kit/
And, frankly, unless you are an officer of the court with experience in BATF issues, in actual court cases, your opinion holds no water. I do not mean to be rude, but its rather like someone trying to argue that a cop cant write you a speeding ticket if he is using LIDAR.
Bottom line - to quote Rooster Cogburn “you do what you think best, Ned”.
I will follow my own (and the other guys) advice and err on the side of not provoking the BATF in any way.
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Eloquently said Professor
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What about drop in cylinders? Does installing a drop-in cylinder not constitute "making a firearm", requiring it be sold through an FFL? No loading port necessary.
And, frankly, unless you are an officer of the court with experience in BATF issues, in actual court cases, your opinion holds no water.
Then my opinion is no different from yours. It's merely an opinion. As there is no official word from the ATF that clears this up.
However, what we do have are licensed gunsmiths that do these conversions on a daily basis that have been in close contact with the ATF about the legality of their work, because they are the ones most at risk and that is the source of my comments. Not armchair postulating.
Once a loading port is cut on a percussion frame, According to the BATF you have manufactured a PMF.
According to the ATF? Or according to your interpretation? If we do not have an official word from the ATF, how can the above be "according to the ATF"?
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One thing to remember in all this discussion-whatever the BATF says today, is only relevant today, and might change completely tomorrow. Couple of examples are AR-15 bump stocks, and "pistol braces" that might be used like a buttstock by resting against your shoulder. One day BATF says it's legal, the next day it's not.
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Howdy Conversionistas,
Regarding the BATF, I am reminded of a phrase an old boss of mine used: "you don't wake up a snake to kill it."
Rev. Chase
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My takeaway from this discussion is we need someone to volunteer as a test case to dangle that altered frame with the cut loading channel in front of a BATF agent, or several agents in order to get a consensus, and demonstrate how the cylinders swap in and out, and receive a definitive answer. (Unless they change the laws again.)
Then get back to us here and post a detailed report, assuming they allow phone or internet privileges from prison.
So take notes. ;)
Or do what my wife plans to do with all my guns. Bury 'em with me in the casket. Then the status of a "PMF" becomes moot. Too moot to shoot.
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Wonder what the import arrangement is for the "percussion Model P" that's been offered by Uberti, Pietta and ASM ? It comes with a factory loading gate for crying out loud!!!
Mike
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Wonder what the import arrangement is for the "percussion Model P" that's been offered by Uberti, Pietta and ASM ? It comes with a factory loading gate for crying out loud!!!
Mike
But it can't be made to shoot cartridges by just changing parts. The loading gate is where they have to cap the nipples. Seems like I read years ago about someone converting one of those but it took some work.
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Wonder what the import arrangement is for the "percussion Model P" that's been offered by Uberti, Pietta and ASM ? It comes with a factory loading gate for crying out loud!!!
Mike
My good Mike
The difference is in “making a permanent modification to the frame”
In the “1873 percussion” models the difference is twofold
1) nobody makes a commercial conversion cylinder
2) the gate is already there, as originally manufactured, thus no “modification to the frame” once out of the factory.
In this case, a valid comparison is the mossberg shockwave.
To us, it is a “shortbarreled pistol grip shotgun”
The BATF decided it is a manufactured pistol that shoots 12 ga shells. “not a shotgun” because it did not
Come from the factory designed to be “shot from the shoulder”, which is and has been the govt designation of a shotgun.
This is not about “making sense” .
This is about bureaucratic lawyers interpreting legalese “laid in stone” by other bureaucratic goobers.
And splitting hairs, and taking people to court over it.
Once again, it doesn’t make any sense, it just *is*
And, again, anyone can legally make a PMF.
And there appear to be avenues to go thru an ffl willing to jump thru the flaming hoops to leagally serialize it then sell it.
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Let me get this straight:
1860 with drop-in cylinder + no loading port = not a firearm.
1860 with a loading port + no other modifications or changes = firearm.
No.
Or does installing the drop-in cylinder also make the non-firearm into a firearm by virtue of accepting metallic cartridges? Which means the loading port has nothing to do with it? Yes.
Cutting the loading port does not make a percussion gun into a firearm and there is nothing from the ATF saying it does.
The original Colt conversions (the fact that they're antiques not withstanding), along with those built by Howell, Millington and presumably Strite are "firearms" because their conversions are permanent and they cannot be converted back to percussion.
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Howdy (again) all,
This will be my last word on the subject and I am unanimous in this. What we have going on here is a difference of opinions. We are each entitled to our own. Not to put too fine a point on it, the only opinion that counts is/will be that of the BATF if they are ever directly involved in a specific circumstance. I for one have no interest in sitting down with them and pressing for an opinion. Some day, someone with this assembled collection of parts and pieces will find themselves in the clutches of the G Men and he will find out exactly what their opinion is. I pity that fellow.
To further muddy the waters, I believe some here have seen that there is often a lack of unanimity of opinion within that august organization; so, even then, you're still likely to find more than one opinion. While ignorance of the law is no excuse, I'd prefer not to risk my liberty to the ignorance of those who have to apply this particular area of the law.
I know that I started this discussion looking to confirm what I believed to be the case. Now, I feel like it is time for me to bow out as I don't think I have any solid evidence to further the discussion.
Respectfully,
Rev. Chase
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Some day, someone with this assembled collection of parts and pieces will find themselves in the clutches of the G Men and he will find out exactly what their opinion is. I pity that fellow.
And pray tell what law will have been violated???
None.
Federal law already accommodates that you can manufacture a firearm as an individual. You just can't sell one without a serial number. You can't make and sell them as a business without a license. All percussion revolvers have a serial number.
Those that are converted to accommodate a Kirst gated kit are technically still a percussion revolver when they are built and returned to the owner. They are shipped with the percussion cylinder in place and will function as a percussion revolver. The individual "manufactures" a firearm when they install the gated kit. If you later sell said firearm as a cartridge gun, it must be transferred through a dealer. The manufacturer already put a serial number on the gun. No need for ATF to be involved at all. Case closed.
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I'm out.
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This poor horse has been beaten quite long enough.