Author Topic: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block  (Read 20280 times)

Offline ndnchf

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1419
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1
Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« on: October 26, 2015, 04:39:06 PM »
These discussion about Gemmer conversions encouraged me to share an idea I've had for a Gemmer style rolling block. You fellas may think it's a hair-brained idea - maybe it is. Dusty Texian and I have discussed it off line and he didn't think I was completely off my rocker. So here it is:

I have a well worn #2 Remington rolling block (mid size action) that I've been thinking of having rebored or relined. These #2s are designed for small BP cartridges: 32 rimfire, 32-20, 38 rimfire, 44 rimfire etc. My idea is to use this as a starting point for a mid-size Gemmer style rifle. It would not be historically authentic, as #2s were made from the mid 1870s through 1915. And being they are pint size, they certainly wouldn't be the choice for a plains rifle. But I'm an easterner. Knowing the reputation that big bore Gemmers have for wounding on the buttplate end, I thought "why not a small, light recoiling version?".

To visualize this idea I layed the #2 next to and over a Lyman Great Plains rifle to see if something like the GPR could be a donor stock. My problem is that I'm not a wood carver, never made a stock and don't know how. I really can't affford to farm this out to a big name stock maker, so I thought that adapting an existing repro stock may be the way to go.

What do you fellas think? Here's a few pics.










"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

  • THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 6199
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 396
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2015, 06:47:01 PM »
Look at the second picture, of two Gove underlever conversions;

http://www.rollingblockparts.com/gallery.html

Husqvarna made beautiful sporters that are like Gemmers, but full stocked. Sort of like a Jaeger.

Look at the last post;  http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?2011-Rolling-block-picture-thread/page2
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline PJ Hardtack

  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4003
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2015, 08:27:56 PM »
There are mini-Sharps rifles, so why not one on a RB action?

I bought a neat Uberti 24" barrel mini-RB "for my wife" in .357 that I think is the cutest thing ever. She shot it on one occasion and I've put about 100 rds through it - BP and smokeless.

I considered mounting it with a straight tube scope, but it's so much fun to shoot as is.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but that Husqvarna "Jaeger" is butt ugly - IMHO.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Advertising

  • Guest
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #3 on: Today at 11:54:48 PM »

Offline PJ Hardtack

  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4003
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 08:46:48 PM »
You guys are scarin' the bejabbers outa me with all this talk about hard kickin' Gemmers in 45-70.

Both my '86 and Shiloh Business Rifle have crescent butts and I shoot both in all positions without wearing a sissy pad. In fact, none of my BPCR's have shotgun butts.

Considering the weight of the Gemmer Sharps at 11.8 lbs less sights, why would it be any worse?
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Coffinmaker

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7605
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 125
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 11:45:39 PM »
ndnchf,

I'm not the one to judge Hare Brained Schemes.  Nor question your relative sanity.  After all, you play on the Dark Side and that alone
shows your a few bubbles off plumb.  So, .......... Why Not??

The Roller Action you have is too small.  Your going to wind up with a really cute, petite Roller Rifle.  Since your shooting BP, consider
357 Maximum cases.  Great cool factor material that.  Biggest Gemmer feature is the fore stock.  I think it's doable.  Just go slow and
don't get in a hurry.  Fun Project.  I think all the "odd" parts for the fore stock wedges and the wedges are available from Dixie.  Just
learn to cut dovetails.

Coffinmaker

Offline Kent Shootwell

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 779
  • Got whiskey, will stumble.
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 22
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2015, 09:51:28 AM »
ndnchf,
I applaud your enthusiasm to build a Gemmer but that Lyman is out of scale to your roller. Consider making a fore end by using a router for cutting the barrel channel and as Coffinmaker said all the small parts can be bought. Draw the whole thing out to scale then you will have a pattern to follow.
Here's one I made back when my hair had color.
 
Little powder much lead shoots far kills dead.
Member, whiskey livers
AKA Phil Coffins, AKA Oliver Sudden

Offline PJ Hardtack

  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4003
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2015, 10:47:54 AM »
Very functional looking rifle, Kent!

Does the ram rod interfere when shooting from x-stix or do you remove it?
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Kent Shootwell

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 779
  • Got whiskey, will stumble.
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 22
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2015, 12:17:10 PM »
Yep, it shot well with 100 grains and 54 cal. slug. I never used cross sticks with it but I'm sure you could. It was sold pretty soon after the photo was taken.
Here's another I built for a customer. Note the cast fore end tip.
Little powder much lead shoots far kills dead.
Member, whiskey livers
AKA Phil Coffins, AKA Oliver Sudden

Offline Blair

  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 2484
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2015, 12:57:51 PM »
PJ,

I would suggest finding the balance point of the firearm and place it at the point of the rest. (whatever that rest maybe)
In most cases the balance point will be to the rear of the fore end cap and forward of the rear sight.
The shooter has to support very little to no weight at all and will not effect the cleaning/ram rod.
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21

Offline ChuckBurrows

  • Frontier Knifemaker & Leathersmith
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1066
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2015, 02:07:27 PM »
FYI - author John Baird and gunsmith Ed Webber, both of Big Timber, MT, at the time came up with the idea for a Rolling Block/Sharps hybrid back in the early 1970's. John wrote about the project in one of his two books on the Hawken Rifle. I don't have them handy so can't say which for sure, but vaguely IIRc it was in the first book, "Hawken Rifles, the Mountain Man's Choice".
Again and vaguely IIRc ED built at least one of these hybrids so there may be some info out there if it ever got wrote up at the time.

BTW - Gemmer actually built at least one Hawken Mountain Rifle into a tip up action breechloader which was pictured in one of Baird's books - a very interesting looking modification.
aka Nolan Sackett
Frontier Knifemaker & Leathersmith

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

  • THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 6199
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 396
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2015, 02:51:45 PM »
PJ: I know that this Husky Sporter is ugly, but I've seen pictures of much better examples, but they elude me now. Not North American but pretty nice. I used the term Jaeger as that was my impression of its appearance.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Blair

  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 2484
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2015, 03:49:09 PM »
PJ,

I always thought one of the mini or small frame RB or Sharps reproductions could be converted into a very nice mid range Rifle using the 38-55.
Sad to say I never did. Too many projects!
But it is a good cartridge out to about 300 m., will take most N American game and the wife, I think will enjoy shooting it.
I am posting this just as a thought on my part.
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21

Offline ndnchf

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1419
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2015, 04:02:38 PM »
Thanks for your comments guys. The Lyman GPR isn't necessarily what I'll use, I just happen to have it for a comparison. It is a little oversize for the #2 RRB. I think the butt could be paired down enough to be suitable. But the forend is for a larger barrel and may not be suitable. I have two of these #2 RRBs and really like them. One is a 32-20 and a great shooter. The one shown is in 32 extra long rimfire. I made my own reloadable rimfire cases and have shot it quite a bit. The the bore is just plain shot out and it won't hold a group. So it's is a candidate to reline to something 32 or rebore to something 38 or 44. But they would have to be low powered cartridges for this old action. That's fine with me. Maybe 44 Henry centerfire or 38 long colt.

I'm probably just dreaming, but it is fun to imagine what could be.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline PJ Hardtack

  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4003
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2015, 04:24:27 PM »
The general consensus of the Shiloh Rifle forum gurus is that the 'sweet spot' on the barrel is back 1/4 of the barrel length from the muzzle.
In the case of my 28" Business Rifle, that is 7" from the muzzle. I have a wrap of masking tape at that spot and the barrel gets placed in the x-stix at that point.

This works for guys like Ulscher, Venturino, Garbe and Gullo, so who am I to disagree? I have to say that based on my experience and experimentation, it works.

PJ,

I would suggest finding the balance point of the firearm and place it at the point of the rest. (whatever that rest maybe)
In most cases the balance point will be to the rear of the fore end cap and forward of the rear sight.
The shooter has to support very little to no weight at all and will not effect the cleaning/ram rod.
My best,
 Blair
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Blair

  • NCOWS Member
  • Top Active Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 2484
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2015, 04:48:40 PM »
PJ,

Does your Business Rifle have a Cleaning/Ram Rod, under rib and thimbles?
If not, then why would you be asking about the ram rod interfering with shooting from cross sticks?
My reply to you was based on your ram rod question and the use of a rest.
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
Life-C 21

Offline PJ Hardtack

  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4003
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2015, 06:02:55 PM »
I asked because I have a chance to buy a Pedersoli Gemmer Sharps.

I have an H&R Officer Model with a cleaning rod under the barrel. When shooting it from x-stix, I remove the cleaning rod.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline PJ Hardtack

  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4003
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2015, 06:08:59 PM »
I didn't realize from the picture that it was a percussion model. I have both the '63 Military Rifle and carbine in .50 percussion as well as their 50-70 twins.

Had a very nice Shiloh '63 Sporter in .54. Sold it because I didn't like the volume of powder it ate and I hated to use fillers. I've seen it advertised for sale since.

100 grs of powder under that .54 "Xmas Tree" bullet is mite much for some folks - me included!

Yep, it shot well with 100 grains and 54 cal. slug. I never used cross sticks with it but I'm sure you could. It was sold pretty soon after the photo was taken.
Here's another I built for a customer. Note the cast fore end tip.

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Gabriel Law

  • American Plainsmen Society
  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 536
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2015, 02:28:22 PM »
Before you cut the butt stock off an otherwise decent rifle, measure the RB 's action width and height, and diagonally too, and then the sacrificial stock, to make sure there is enough wood to mate with the rectangular action of the RB.  It would be far easier to start with a blank.

Offline ndnchf

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1419
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2015, 07:20:22 PM »
I did measure the wrist area of the GPR and the tang/receiver of the rolling block. It's close, but it would work. For me, not being a wood carver, this would be the easiest way to go.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline pony express

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3629
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Idea for a Gemmer Rolling Block
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2015, 08:58:14 PM »
I think if you could find a regular rolling Block buttstock, but with a crescent buttplate, it already would already look pretty much like what you are going for. But for the forend, that small action you have looks like it would have to have a much slimmer stock than most Hawken style rifles.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk

© 1995 - 2023 CAScity.com