Proposed standards for "Battle Rifle" usage

[Drydock]

I recieved permission to demonstrate "Battle Rifle" usage at the 2006 Muster.  IE shooting the main match using Milspec weapons, with ammunition loaded to CAS spec.  Proposed specification are:

-Milspec weapons of the late Victorian era, 1865-1901

-RIfles will be MAIN BATTLE RIFLES and CARBINES, utilizing CAS spec ammunition.  Lead bullets of weight no more than 405 grains, velocity less than 1400 FPS.  Examples would be, but not limited to: Krags, Spencers, Trapdoors, Sniders, Enfields, early Mausers. Handguns would be milspec, or of demonstrated military use, related in period to the rifle used.  The rifle is the determing factor here.

-Lever action pistol caliber rifles are specificly excluded. Lever action rifles with tubular underbarrel magazines are not allowed.  Rifles/carbines must be in a military configuration, military caliber.  Example:  the 1895 Winchester is allowed, if in military configuration, chambered in .30 US (.30-40 Krag)

(reasonable caliber subsitiution may be allowed on a case by case basis.)

-Dress must Attempt to be military, matching the weapon used.  Don't show up dressed for the Rough Riders carrying a Mauser.  Full or partial uniforms are fine, Scouts, field expediencey, and irregulars are recognized.

-Era single shots, ie trapdoors, Martini Henrys, Rolling blocks, are encouraged, loaded to spec, probably only required to engage half the rifle targets of the repeaters.  This will be worked out/adjusted as needed, as per NASCAR.

-As a technical limitation, No stripper clips allowed.

-Don't come to me about the Turks using 1866s at Plevna.  Know it, don't care, plenty other venues for those.  This is for Main Battle rifles.  Henrys and 66s were the submachine guns of their era.

This is still in its formative stage.  I have shot the 2006 Muster using an M1898 Krag Carbine, and an M1873 Trapdoor carbine.  If interested, Please e-mail or PM me with any suggestions.  Or leave them right here.

[Dr. Bob]

If I could afford the 1874 Swiss revolver @ $2400, I would use my Vetterli.  Get this - both in 10.4mm X 48 mm!  Gee, can I use a pistol caliber rifle with a tubular magazine??  It is a bolt action with the Henry lifter/magazine system.  Can't afford the revolver, so I won't worry.   Would be fun though!

[Mustang Gregg]

Sgt Drydock:

Are you proposing using those bolt rifles w/ reduced loads in main matches or for side match only?

Mustang Gregg,
Bvt Ltc, Dept of Nebraska

[Advertising]

[Major Matt Lewis]

Gregg,

They will be used in the Main Match.  We will be cutting catagories this year based on Rifle.  I have the cataories here:

Military Bolt Action - Cartridge Pistol (Smokeless only),
Percussion - Must have a C&B Pistol as well (BP or BP Substitutes only.)
Lever Action - Cartridge Pistol (Smokeless),
Lever Action - Cartridge Pistol (BP or Substitute),
Lever Action - Cap & Ball Pistol (BP or Substitute),
Single Shot Cartridge Rifle - Cartridge Pistol (Smokeless),
Single Shot Cartridge Rifle - Cartridge Pistol (BP or Substitute)
Spencer Carbine/Rifle - Cap & Ball Pistol (BP or Substitute)

[Mustang Gregg]

MML:
Thank you, Sir!
I am pondering a Winchester 1895 for what Ltc Roosevelt was said to have carried in Cuba.
I need to research which revolver he packed.  '73 Colt?
MG

[Grizzle Bear]

I believe T.R. was carrying a Peacemaker with a 5 inch barrel, that had been salvaged from the "Maine."

At least, that's the story, and if it ain't true, it ought to be!

Grizzle Bear

[Mustang Gregg]

GB
I have heard that too.
Seems there is a story of a DA Colt in .38 that was stolen & recovered, also.
MG

[Books OToole]

I also believe that there is a S & W New Model 3 associated with T.R. and Cuba.

Books

[Drydock]

In the Santiago campaign, TR was carrying a Colt "New Navy" .38 Long Colt double action revolver, model of 1892.  This revolver was recovered from the wreck of the Maine, and is currently in the Sagamore Hill collection.  It had been missing/stolen for some time, but was recently returned.

The 1st USV was also issued 5.5" Colt SAA "artillery" models,  and TR was also known to favor a heavily engraved 7.5" .45 SAA.  Any of these would be proper.

It is known that TR gave his M1895 to Private Bob Wrenn prior to embarking in Tampa.  Bob Wrenn prouldly carried this rifle back home after mustering out.  This is the only documented 1895 to make it to Cuba, though it is fairly certain that others were carried.  It is most probable though, that if TR used a long gun in Cuba, it was likely a Krag he aquired there.

I highly reccomend J.C. Stewarts "Cowboys in Uniform", the definitive work on the 1st USV.

[Mustang Gregg]

Sgt Drydock:

So ANY of the above mentioned six-guns would be okay along with a M-1895 rifle with USV uniform?
I'm getting my gear ready a might ahead of time.
Sounds like it'll be a fine Muster & match.

Respectfully,
MG

[St. George]

Fantasies aside - Roosevelt carried a Model 1892 Colt .38 DA - salvaged from the wreckage of the Maine.

His brother-in-law - W.S. Cowles, USN gained possession of it, and presented it to him - the serial number is #16334.

Engraved on the left side are the words:  "from the sunken battleship Maine', and the right side reads: 'July 1st 1898/ San Juan/ carried and used by Col. Theodore Roosevelt'.

Roosevelt 'owned' a Model 1895 Winchester in .30 Government - but 'he' didn't carry it.

It was given to Pvt. Robert D. Wrenn of A Troop, since he'd joined the unit in Tampa on June 4 - too late to be issued the Krag carbine.

Roosevelt's quote - 'Bob Wrenn had joined us very late, and we could not get him a Krag carbine, so I had given him my Winchester, which carried the government (.30-40) cartridge, and when he was mustered out he carried it home in triumph, to the envy of his fellows, who themselves had to surrender their beloved rifles.'

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Mustang Gregg]

Sgt D:
The main match rifles need to be original caliber only?  It'll be tough to find M1895 in .30 US. 
Are we going to hold every rifle & handgun to caliber standards?
MG

[Frenchie]

Now, will we be a bit looser for the first time.  Probably, thats up to the Major, but I suspect that will only be for handguns, the rifle has got to be right.

Then I'm glad I didn't get that Spencer rifle in .44-40 after all. When I get one, it'll be in .56-50. My cartridge handguns will be in .44 Colt.

[Major Matt Lewis]

Ok,

Let's take a look at something.  GAF has this funny thing in our charter that say's it can be history or a Hollywood look.  SO, I would say that if you wanted to use an 1895 as a Rough Rider, the only documentation you would need to bring is a copy of the movie Rough Riders.  All of the officers carried the 1895 as well.  

I am going to reverse something else that Drydock said as well about .30-06.  In our sport, we don't really pay attention to caliber.  For example, a .357 Mag SAA is good to go.  There was no .357 Mag around by 1902.  So, if you want to rule out the 1903, that's fine, but I got no issue with using a rifle with the exact same action with a small change to caliber.  Remember, to load it way DOWN.  I have a 1895, in .30-06, carbine version, but was not planning on using it this time.  I believe that there are so many precidents in both SASS and NCOWS that allow this, that there is no room for debate here.

Gregg,

Also be aware, I am cutting catagories by rifle actions and types.  So, if you are shooting an 1895 you will be competing against folks who can load 10 rounds in the Magazine.  They will have an advantage over you.  I don't know if you care, but I did want you to know.  

Folks,

There will be no one inspecting uniforms for authenticity or matching armaments and accoutraments plain and simple.  By not being historically accurate may knock you out of the uniform competition, but you are still in the shooting portion.  We GAF as well as NCOWS encourage a high level of historical accuracy, but nobody cares if you don't have the proper harness to go with your rifle.  Nor do we care if you have a .30-06 or a .357 Mag, nor a .44 Mag or Special or a rifle that shoots .45 LC (That didn't exist either).  BUT, if you break a target, you will be asked to sit down and given a bill for it if you are shooting something too hot...


Drydock,

This also brings to mind the need for a chronometer to make sure folks competing with non-pistol caliber rifles are safe to compete.  Do you or anybody else have access to one.

[Mustang Gregg]

MML:

The reason I was askin' is that a guy up here has an M-1895 for sale (not in .30 US though )  I missed out on one of them at a gun show 2 years back.  DANG!!!
I've been pondering buying one for a nostalgic TR-looking hunting rifle.  So I would have a dual-purpose GAF battle rifle in the same weapon.    
Yup, I really wasn't working on winnning any categories at the muster.  Just looking good & shooting clean.  No problem with reloads---THAT'S JUST LIFE.

Thanks,
MG

[Gripmaker]

So, would it be permissable to come as a Mexican revolutionary carrying a Colt SAA and a Model 98 Mauser in 8mm ? I have one confiscated from a 12 year old SS private by my Father-in-law in WWII that I would like to shoot. It is a Kar 98 but a 98 none the less. Some help please.

[St. George]

To what extent of use, or type of long arms carried by Rough Rider Officers is unclear, as there are no known photographs or personal first hand accounts extant..

There's evidence that their personal baggage never made it off the troop transport 'Yucatan'.

From 'The Rough Riders' - by Roosevelt:

"A few carried their favorite Winchesters using, of course, the New model, which took the Government cartridge..."

Given that an Officer's job is to direct fire - their real 'weapon' was the unit they commanded.

As to the Model 1898 Mauser - the early version of the rifle was a weapon supplied to many Latin American countries by Germany, but the issue weapon of the Federales was the Model 1895, while that of the Rurales was the Remington Rolling Block.

Villistas were well-armed with captured stocks - and all manner of lever-actions - the .30-30 being a particular favorite.

'La Revolucion' would see pretty much 'all' available small arms of the time frame being used.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy,

The Old Town Gun Shop has 3 Krags for sale and 2 at very reasonable prices. 

armchairgunshow.com

Lots of other neat and interesting firearms too.  On a military board, GUNS should refer to something with wheels and a crew to make it shoot.  I'll accept a Gatling gun, which though a small caliber [.30, .45 & .50] is a crew served weapon and did have a carriage mount.

Good shopping!

Capt. Dr. Bob

[Mustang Gregg]

I just talked to a shooting buddy here.  He offered me his original Win M-1895 saddle ring carbine in .30 US cal.  It has the military upper & lower forends & correct sight.  I forgot to ask about the sling provisions & bayonet lug.  That is going to be awful close to rifle for Ltc TR in the Mil Spec category.

Things are looking up, equipmentwise!

Have a Cav Day,
Mustang Gregg

PS:  Is NCOWS membership req'd for the GAF match?

[Gripmaker]

I don't know if my previous post was accepted so here goes again. I am wondering why the arbitrary cut-off date is 1896 for the Mausers yet rifles of much later production are accepted, ie. Remingtons at 1898 and Marlins of mid-1960s design (444 and some 336s)?  The Model 98 fits within our time period and was issued during that time so why is it not included as a military battle rifle?