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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: RattlesnakeJack on February 04, 2020, 11:14:08 PM

Title: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 … no, 2021 … no, 2022 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 04, 2020, 11:14:08 PM
Well, call me a foolish old fat man, but I am currently beginning work on a couple of new uniforms (and related kit) which I can hopefully get completed in time for this year's National Muster ...

The proposed "impression" will be that of the North West Mounted Police circa 1885-1895, and will consist of both a dress uniform and, for shooting, a common form of "patrol dress" -

One week ago, I pretty much "fell into" a reproduction NWMP Pattern 1882 tunic which actually fits me!  Since I already have a great deal of kit which is appropriate to these two impressions (or can be fairly easily adapted) I decided to give it a go ...

However, knowing how unlikely it is that conditions at the end of June in central Nebraska will permit shooting in the full uniform, I have decided to also put together a suitable undress/field uniform incorporating a the cotton "stable jacket" (part of a complete fatigue uniform of very plain jacket, trousers and cap issued to NWMP Other Ranks in that time-frame, and often used as a comfortable and practical jacket on patrol. 

The two uniforms will be essentially as seen in these extracts from colour plates in Osprey's Men-at-Arms #197, "The Royal Canadian Mounted Police 1873-1987" -

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/700x750q90/924/SLKQbJ.jpg)

One difference I should mention - the red tunic worn in the above image is the Pattern 1876 tunic, whereas the one I have is a Pattern 1882 tunic ... virtually identical, except it has a slightly higher collar and the yellow/gold shoulder cords are replaced with red shoulder straps, edged in yellow/gold piping the same as the rest of the piping on the tunic.

Another likely difference ... I doubt if I will bother trying to reproduce the rather silly little deerstalker-type cap, and will likely opt for the much better sun protection of a stetson, as worn by the Constable here (in stable jacket and chaps (... no, chaps would be too hot! ...) armed with Winchester rifle and Enfield revolver, and by these fellows in the full fatigue uniform ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/635x550q90/921/qWFzA3.jpg)

As some of you will know, I do not suffer from a shortage of firearms, and accordingly have several from which to choose for this venture ... including my reproduction NWMP-pattern Model 1876 Winchester carbine and an original .577 Snider cavalry carbine.  Similarly, if I choose to shoot in one of the "two gun" categories rather than as a Rifleman, I have several suitable choices: a .450 Adams revolver, an actual NWMP-issue .455 Enfield Mk II revolver, a Model 1878 Colt Double Action revolver (Canada Militia issue, a batch of which were on loan to the NWMP) and even two different "clones" of the S&W No. 3 revolver, thirty of which were acquired by the NWMP in the "Russian Model" and smaller caliber versions of which were acquired for the use of senior NCOs and Officers ...

Choices ... Choices ...  ???
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on February 05, 2020, 08:53:50 AM
Looking forward to see what you come up with. I?m sure it will be spot on. For my RCMP outfit I went Hollywood with a Sgt Preston RNWMP impression as it being one of my favorite Saturday morning shows when I was a kid. I bought some insignia for it but can?t find it now. I used a heavy brown Stratton DI hat only to realize that the Montana style creases are 45 degrees off. I even bought a stuffed husky, Yukon King, that I carry to the shoots with me. He?s a good boy and will stay right by my side. My faux 73/76 carbine is almost done too. And as far as you not being able to use your nice faux 73/76 carbine in a sass match why couldn?t you call it a Spanish Contract carbine, which as you know was a real rifle that Winchester built. Some had cleaning rods, sling swivels and some didnt. I used a krag band for my upper sling swivel/ band. Had to do a little fitting but now I have two bands that work. Haven?t inlet the lower swivel yet, still on the fence. A reproduction 1873 Spanish Contract carbine is a hell of a lot more correct cas rifle than a ?modern? Henry tube loading rifle. Stay warm.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 05, 2020, 10:34:38 AM
As usual Jack, you will stun all with your sartorial magnificence.  (an he's right purty too!)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 05, 2020, 12:49:23 PM
Looking forward to see what you come up with. I?m sure it will be spot on. For my RCMP outfit I went Hollywood with a Sgt Preston RNWMP impression as it being one of my favorite Saturday morning shows when I was a kid. I bought some insignia for it but can?t find it now. I used a heavy brown Stratton DI hat only to realize that the Montana style creases are 90 degrees off. I even bought a stuffed husky, Yukon King, that I carry to the shoots with me. My faux 73/76 carbine is almost done too. And as far as you not being able to use your nice faux 73/76 carbine in a sass match why couldn?t you call it a Spanish Contract carbine, which as you know was a real rifle that Winchester built. Some had sling swivels and some didnt. I used a krag band for my upper sling swivel/ band. Had to do a little fitting but now I have two bands that work. Haven?t inlet the lower swivel yet, still on the fence. A reproduction 1873 Spanish Contract carbine is a hell of a lot more correct cas rifle than a ?modern? Henry tube loading rifle. Stay warm.

Ed:  I'm not aware of a reason why a faux 76 based on a '73 action couldn't be used in a SASS match, and I have in fact used mine in matches (albeit not SASS matches, but unfortunately, from what I have been told I gather that despite well-documented use as military-issue rifles, under the GAF rules any lever-action rifle will shunt the shooter into one of the "Civilian" categories (... in particular, "Militia", if competing in uniform ...) which, of course, removes one out of any possible running for the Brigade Champion ("Iron Trooper") award.  To quaify for that, one must be shooting in a Military category (in uniform, and must place first, second or third in one's main match category, as well as in both the Long Range Rifle and Precision Pistol events.  Although I have won it twice before when requirments were less stringent, the chances are admittedly mighty slim of this particular slow old man doing it again with the requirements as they are now ... but it would be nice to at least have the chance, slim as it may be, to complete my "hat trick" (ice hoickey term) of Iron Trooper medals ...

I do actually have a faux NWMP carbine built on a a Model 1873 action (chambered in .45 Colt) AND also a reproduction Model 1876 in the original .45-75 chambering ...but (if the rules were not so "exclusionary" of lever-action rifles in the Military categories) believe that I would have to use the full-size M'1876, anyway ...

Here's my full-size .45-75 reproduction 1876 -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/641x402q90/921/bMQ6Qc.jpg)

... and my faux .45 Colt "1873/76" -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/700x410q90/922/xbC2ge.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on February 05, 2020, 12:57:37 PM
I must have misunderstood about using your 73/76 then. If the Muster wasn?t so far away I would love to attend one.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on February 05, 2020, 01:52:27 PM
I know most military '76s went to the NWMP, but some went to militia units. Most of the scout units were completely militia in concept and actual make-up, but some military units were deployed and issued with the '76 military carbine. I am thinking of the "Geegees", the Governor Generals Horse Guards (GGHG). With the make-up of Canadian military forces at the time, ALL being called militia, The GGHG were Non-Permanent Active Militia and called out. About as close to the military category considering the legal make-up of Canada's forces at the time. The problem remains of the GAF rule prohibiting any leveraction in the military class.

RSJ; Congratulations on your kit for the muster. it seems that you have numerous options available to you.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 05, 2020, 04:28:13 PM
Sir Charles:

Yes, as you say, the Regular Cavalry units in action during the 1885 North-West Rebellion were indeed all armed with .45-75 Model 1876 carbines - including The Governor General's Body Guard for Ontario - as the GGHG were named from 1867 to 1895 (... thereafter named The Governor General's Body Guard for Upper Canada until 1936, when finally named The Governor General's Horse Guards.) 

Here's a photo of a tent squad of The Governor-General's Body Guard in their camp at Humboldt, District of Saskatchewan, in 1885 -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x614q90/922/tPMolY.jpg)

Detail from that photo:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/850x561q90/923/qMXmZ2.jpg)

A few images from The Canadian Pictoria & Illustrated War News ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/959x778q90/924/KTJRD1.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x767q90/922/QZSKh2.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/977x778q90/922/OilodJ.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/585x778q90/924/d6o2f9.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 05, 2020, 05:28:23 PM
My firearm choices for this impression -

Long Arm -
 
Snider-Enfield Cavalry Carbine, .577 Snider, in primary service 1873-1885 -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x228q90/923/vfz8cc.jpg)

Model 1876 Winchester carbine, NWMP Pattern, .45-75 Winchester, in primary service 1878-1915 -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x176q90/923/joNzF5.jpg)

Handgun -

Mark III Adams revolver, .450 Adams, in primary service 1875-1886 -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x575q90/922/skfIBk.jpg)

Mark II Enfield revolver, .455 Enfield, in primry service 1882-1905 -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/952x640q90/921/3E3fxD.jpg)

Model 1878 Colt double Action revolver, .45 Colt, undetermined number loaned to NWMP by Dept. of Militia & Defence, about 1885 ... length of service unknown -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x495q90/924/IRljnS.jpg)

And here are two other intriguing possibilities in my collection - two .455 Spanish-made "clones" of that the Model No. 3 S&W revolver (both of which were accepted into British military service as substitute standard revolvers) which I can hopefully have approved as acceptable "stand-ins" for the No. 3 S&W revolvers used by the NWMP in the  1870s to 1890s -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/584x750q90/923/PiC731.jpg)

Background:  in 1874, due to the unsatisfactory condition of the Mark I Adams revolvers supplied (five shot conversions from the earlier percussion model, and not what had been ordered) the NWMP acquired a suplemental batch of thirty No. 3 Smith & Wesson revolvers (Russian Model). Also, beginning in the 1880s, the NWMP purchased a number of No. 3 S&W revolvers for issue to non-commissioned officers and officers (albeit in .38 S&W chambering.)  Examples of 19th century NWMP-issue S&W revolvers rom "Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police, 1873-1973" -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/600x665q90/923/Hjx2pi.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 05, 2020, 05:58:57 PM
I must have misunderstood about using your 73/76 then. If the Muster wasn?t so far away I would love to attend one.

You maybe recall a post somewhere in the past where I said I didn't use it much in cowboy action shooting.  Being built on a salvaged original 1873 action, it is a bit "gritty" and thus wasn't a very fast shooter, so I kinda tended to leave it in the rack and favoured my repro 1866 and 1873 rifles ....

How far away are you from Muster? My driving distance is over 1000 miles, one way ... and have driven significantly further to attend past Musters in Kansas, Iowa and Texas ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/807x477q90/922/zpkKav.png)

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on February 05, 2020, 06:17:46 PM
Rattlesnake, I?m in eastern North Carolina about 1.5 -2.5 hours from the ocean depending on where I go. A fer piece from S Dakota. My wife and I drove to Yellowstone many years ago, a very long drive.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 05, 2020, 07:47:20 PM
Jack, if there are indeed regular Canadian military units (Not police) being issued the M1876, then I will allow it in the Military class, in an appropriate portrayal.  The Lever rule you state is directed toward the short action rifles, (IE pistol caliber) those simply cannot be accommodated in a competition aimed at main battle rifles.  I apologize for the wording and will correct it.  I confess to appalling ignorance of Canadian Military history!

I am not aware of any other use of such weapons as an issue item, but it certainly seems reasonable for Canada.  I would state that it must be in a military configuration, as with any such rifle.  For the 76, it seems this must be the Musket style forearm carbine configuration.

Frankly, the longer this has gone on, and the more I learn, the more open I become to different weapons and configurations, It's a never ending process.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 05, 2020, 07:57:22 PM
Ed, we're in Central Nebraska.  But a far ways for sure.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 06, 2020, 03:13:55 AM
Chuck, the question remains, I suppose, whether a case can be made that a North West Mounted Police impression could, and should, be accepted as "military" for GAF purposes.  Despite the name, it was effectively a military force in organization, discipline, uniforming, weaponry (including artillery!) and all ... and indeed was the only military force in the vast North West Territory transferred from Britain to the Dominion of Canada in 1871 until the 1885 Rebellion (in which it took a very active part and suffered numerous casualties) and then was left to its own devices again for many years when the mobilized forces returned to Eastern Canada within months of their deployment to the North West.

Indeed, most Canadian history buffs are well aware that, when the government of Prime Minister John A. Macdonald learned that the American government was concerned about the military force Canada was forming to send into the lands abutting the 49th Parallel, at the stroke of a pen one word in the founding statute was substituted for another, and the proposed "North West Mounted Rifles" suddenly became the "North West Mounted Police" ... Nothing else was changed!

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/775x367q90/923/Tcnks7.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Bat 2919 on February 06, 2020, 09:32:44 AM
Jack, if there are indeed regular Canadian military units (Not police) being issued the M1876, then I will allow it in the Military class, in an appropriate portrayal.  The Lever rule you state is directed toward the short action rifles, (IE pistol caliber) those simply cannot be accommodated in a competition aimed at main battle rifles.  I apologize for the wording and will correct it.  I confess to appalling ignorance of Canadian Military history!

I am not aware of any other use of such weapons as an issue item, but it certainly seems reasonable for Canada.  I would state that it must be in a military configuration, as with any such rifle.  For the 76, it seems this must be the Musket style forearm carbine configuration.

Frankly, the longer this has gone on, and the more I learn, the more open I become to different weapons and configurations, It's a never ending process.

This would cause me to believe someone doing a Span Am Rough Rider officers impression would be allowed to use a Winchester 1895 lever action saddle ring carbine, not that that single loading a 95 would be very fast.  On the other hand, if you could get your hands on a Russian 95 Musket with a stripper clip guide and pair it with a #3 S&W revolver a Cossack impression could have some fast runs.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Books OToole on February 06, 2020, 10:43:53 AM
Jack;

Tell me more about the Smith & Wesson, .38 S&W caliber arms issued to the NWMP.

The only No. 3 sized frames chambered for .38 S&W that I can find referred to are New Model 3; and they are very rare.

The ones in you photo appear to be DA 38s.  (Five shot)
If they are 3rd &/or 4th model DA 38s; I have some duplicates. (And neat little flap holsters for them.)

Books
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 06, 2020, 01:15:28 PM
Bat, you are correct, and it has been done.  I myself used an M1895 in musket configuration at the 2018 muster, as they were used in the Phillipines as experimental issue.  The 1895 has been specifically mentioned as allowable if in proper configuration.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 06, 2020, 05:03:18 PM
Question for Brigade Staff: Shall we consider the NWMP a military/paramilitary organization?  I would be in favor of this. 

CAVEAT: This is a question regarding the Northwest Mounted Police, completely separate from the later Royal Canadian Mounted Police. 
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 06, 2020, 05:08:55 PM
Also, yes Jack, your Spanish.455s are an acceptable substitute.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 07, 2020, 12:53:29 AM
Question for Brigade Staff: Shall we consider the NWMP a military/paramilitary organization?  I would be in favor of this. 

CAVEAT: This is a question regarding the Northwest Mounted Police, completely separate from the later Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Yes, I hereby request that this proposal be considered by the Brigade Staff. 

Limiting any resulting approval to the North West Mounted Police - and excluding later iterations of the Force - would be no problem whatsoever, since the Force existed under that specific name only until 1904.  (In that year, it was re-designated as the Royal North West Mounted Police, and did not become the RCMP until 1920.)

A supplementary issue occurs to me, however: while this proposal is under consideration, we perhaps should also consider approving the Royal North West Mounted Police as a recognized military/paramilitary force for purposes of Era of Expansion matches, subject to all other applicable requirements and restrictions.  (That would seem to logically flow from the primary proposal.)

I am in favour, of course!   ;D

If desired, I can put together a presentation in greater detail showing how the NWMP, during the 19th century, was constituted and employed as a military force at least as much (if not more) as serving as a police agency. However, I will hold off on that for the moment, unless the Staff requests such additional information. 

I will simply leave things for now with the following question ... admittedly asked somewhat tongue-in-cheek ...

"Do these men look like your average cops on the beat, or heading off to the donut shop?  

 ;)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/736x411q90/923/ChmbbV.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1019x550q90/923/oCgLeN.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x537q90/923/1p4s1t.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x537q90/922/VrvirF.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/825x508q90/922/GlV4T3.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Cap'n Redneck on February 07, 2020, 04:04:52 AM
A small "lever-action" sidetrack to this thread:
It is documented in Osprey Publishings: "Weapon series: Winchester Lever-Action Rifles" , page 64, that France in 1914 bought 15,100 Winchester M1894 SRC's with 20" barrels and 5 million rounds of .30-30 ammo.  The carbines were fitted with special side-mounted sling-swivels on the left front barrel band and stock.  This so that they would hang flat against the back of French Army motorcycle dispatch riders.
(black & white photo of mc dispatch rider with slung Saddle Ring Carbine on page 63.)

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 07, 2020, 01:26:54 PM
Tell me more about the Smith & Wesson, .38 S&W caliber arms issued to the NWMP.

Books:

I mentioned the S&W .38s, and posted the images of them, because I was struck by how closely they rsemble the Spanish-made clones I have ....

Checking back in "the bible" (Arms and Accoutrements of the Mounted Police 1873-1973) I see that between 1888 and 1904 the NWMP acquired at least 160 .38 S&W revolvers (based on the specific batches  of 25 or more at a time mentioned in the text ... although there seems to be some suggestion that additional acquisitions of smaller quantities amy also have been made.) 

They were 3rd Model Double Action and 2nd, 3rd and 4th Model Safety revolvers.  I confess to having been under the impression (admittedly from a Wikipedia article) that the various large-caliber (e.g. .44) top-break S&W revolvers, whether single or double action, are variants of the No. 3 revolver ... and further that these smaller caliber revolvers are essentially similar in design and function, although characterized as different models. Since you are undoubtedly much more knowledgeable on the subject of S&W revolvers of the period, can you comment on that? 

At any rate, my primary concern was whether my Spanish clones would be considered sufficiently similar in appearance, design and function to be acceptable for GAF shooting as "substitutes" for the specific revolvers used by the NWMP ... and Drydock has answered that in the affirmative ...

One interesting side note:  the holster design issued by the NWMP for these .38 S&W revolvers was obviously based on the holster pattern used with the larger standard-issue Enfield revolver.  These images are both from "Arms & Accoutrements" (... although they are from different sources with no indication one way or the other of their respective scale ...) -

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/756x655q90/924/G7I8R3.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 07, 2020, 01:47:02 PM
Faux 73/76 Winchester?

(https://data.whicdn.com/images/48904992/original.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 07, 2020, 02:07:20 PM
RSJ....this is pretty cool I have to say.  I was actually thinking about getting some like together since I have many Canadian ancestors.   

My wife and daughter are big fans of the TV show "When calls the Heart" where a Mountie plays a prominent role.  The get irritated with me when I point out the holes in the plot on guns, gear and cloths. ::)

Please tell me more about how this faux 73/76 came about.  I have the perfect rifle for that.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Books OToole on February 07, 2020, 02:33:15 PM
Jack;

Based on your post, I have my local library tracking down a copy of Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police 1873-1973.

The DA .38 (No. 2 size) 3rd model was manufactured 1884-1895, with 203,700 produced.  (They are very common down here and in excellent condition will go for about $ 300.)

The 2nd Safety Hammerless, 1887-1890, with 37,350 produced.
      3rd Safety Hammerless, 1890-1898, with 73,500 produced.
      4th Safety Hammerless, 1898-1907, with 104,000 produced.

Is there any mention of finish (blue or nickel) or barrel length (3 1/4" most common, 4 & 5 inch somewhat scarce and 6 in scarce to rare.)?
The holsters that you pictured are black.  Mine are brown but very close in shape.

Books

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 07, 2020, 04:49:26 PM
1894s were also used as armed guard weapons in the pacific northwest by various NG units during ww1. However, like the French 1894s, AND the Royal Navy 1894s, (Used aboard minesweepers, Q-ships and other irregular craft) never officially adopted, thus they remain Militia class (Civilian Long Action) rifles.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 07, 2020, 06:54:01 PM
Books:

Apparently all of the .38 S&W revolvers acquired by the NWMP had 3.25" barrels and, except for at least 25 blued 4th Model Safety revolvers (... a specific purchase of that number is mentioned, not sure if there were any more) were nickle plated. 

The holsters posted above look black but only because the images are greyscale photos (i.e. B&W ... indeed, there are no colour images in "Arms & Accoutrements".)

In fact, NWMP/RNWMP/RCMP holsters and other related leather equipment have always been brown (or "russet" ... although although their early riding boots were black ... check out the colour plates in my original post.)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on February 07, 2020, 06:57:54 PM
Rattlesnake Jack
Looks like you cross the medicine line not far from where I was born in Havre, MT, there because Chinook where we lived at the time did not have a hospital.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 07, 2020, 07:19:48 PM
Please tell me more about how this faux 73/76 came about.

Smoke:

This is something I had a gunsmith friend make up for me quite some time ago (probalby at least 20 years) when I was quite active in cowboy action shooting.  I didn't think I'd ever likely get a "full-size" 1876 and, in any event a rifle chambered in a "rifle" cartridge (all of the NWMP carbines and Canadian Militia Department carbines  and rifles were .45-75) would not be usable in "cowboy action "main matches" 

However, my friend had a complete original Model 1876 action available and confirmed he could use it to build a reduced-size "faux" NWMP carbine for me, which I requested be chambered for .45 Colt (like all of my other CAS rifles and revolvers.)  The action was from a .44-40 rifle, but of course that cartridge is close enough in length and rim diameter to the.45 Colt cartridge that this was no problem.

He made the buttstock and forestock and most of the furniture (certainly the buttplate and nosecap) ... the sights are actually off a Martini-Henry rifle ...  Can't recall if he used an existing barrel or made it from a blank, but he chambered and rifled it ... it is quite accurate.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 07, 2020, 08:00:41 PM
RSJ...that is a really cool little rifle and project.  If you get a chance to post more pics of it, that would be great.

For the patrol jacket, is there something off the shelf you will use or do you need to get it made?

It looks like the cartridge belt is nothing more than a typical western belt but with cartridge loops closed on the bottoms?

Joe Salter has the Arms and Accouterments book....he's gonna get more of my money.

Is there decent uniform book on the NWMP?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 08, 2020, 01:20:27 AM
Smoke:

Actually, there is a olace that I can get a stable jacket very much like the one issued by the NWMP, made to my measurements, for about US$160  it is a business which sells reasonably-priced clothing and other kit for Highland pipe bands, and one item they offer is a cotton drill Scottish styled "cutaway" jacket they refer to as a "Patrol Tunic", whch can be ordered with modifications. Here is an image from their website together with a copy of that same image with some rather crude "photoshopping" done to give an idea of the version I would order ... 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/708x500q90/922/3b9cjD.jpg)

... did a bit of "airbrushing" to eliminate all pockets, modified the colour, and also lowered the standing collar.

Although my image editing skills weren't up to the challenge, I can also have it made with a less pronounced "cutaway" at the bottom of the front closure, so it has the more rounded corners seen in the period photos in my original post.  Mind you, that wouldn't be strictly necessary, because other period photos I have collected show  a version of the stable jacket with a "cutaway" front ... presumably attributable to different makers  ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/391x550q90/922/ubQO9G.jpg)

As for uniform references, the "bible" would undoubtedly be the 542=page tome "Uniforms of the Canadian Mounted Police" by James J. Boulton, published in 1990 ... but it is one of those out-of-print treasures which seem to command ridiculouly high prices - currently US$300 and up!

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30457683244

A much more affordable reference (albeit very much limited in scope by comparison) is Osprey Men-at-Arms Series #197, "The Royal Canadian Mounted Police 1873-1987".

I can't seem to locate any additional images of my faux NWMP carbine right now,  unfortunately.   
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 08, 2020, 01:30:02 AM
Rattlesnake Jack
Looks like you cross the medicine line not far from where I was born in Havre, MT ...

Yes indeed ... the most direct route actually takes me to Havre, then east on US2 for a ways (right through Chinook) before dropping south ...
 ;D
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 08, 2020, 07:05:21 AM
$300... :o.  I'll pass.  I have enough over priced reference books as it is.  I think the cheap Osprey will work.

Have you seen the WPG tunic?  Cheaper buy in but it requires some tailoring and a dye job.

http://onlinemilitaria.net/products/4066-UK-Khaki-Drill-Other-Ranks-Service-Dress-Tunic-Scottish-Pattern/

(http://onlinemilitaria.net/old/pic/UK_KD_SD_Tunic_(scottish).jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Quick Fire on February 08, 2020, 07:55:03 AM
Drydock, I too would be in favor of adding the 1876 Winchester in the correct configuration to the military class.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Whiskey Double on February 08, 2020, 04:22:13 PM
I have a question what class would this 76 be in? Black powder or smokeless military.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Whiskey Double on February 08, 2020, 04:38:44 PM
I am assuming it would be black powder class. So trapdoors and Sharp's will be competing against this gun correct?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 08, 2020, 05:29:52 PM
Depends. As a pre 1886,  If he loads with BP, its a BP gun, if smokeless, then he competes against smokeless rifles.  Same as a Spencer, or my Vetterli last year.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Whiskey Double on February 08, 2020, 06:01:43 PM
Still learning , had to ask. Just when I thought I knew ......
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Niederlander on February 08, 2020, 06:16:31 PM
As an aside, from what I've observed, rifle caliber lever actions don't really give an advantage in speed.  They are very quick until you have to reload, and since you almost have to load from the magazine, that tends to slow you down quite a bit.  Of course, a '95 Winchester not set up for stripper clips is probably the slowest of all to reload.  It really all comes down to the skill of the shooter (as it usually does).
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 11, 2020, 06:44:21 PM
Drydock,  is the raising of this question here in this thread (as you worded it above) sufficient to get the matter considered by the Brigade Staff, or will it need to be more formally presented?  (Despite having "fallen into" this tunic, as it were, it will take quite a lot of time and effort to accumulate everything else I'll need ... including the stable jacket for the field uniform, so I do need to get this determined as soon as practicable.)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Niederlander on February 11, 2020, 07:55:31 PM
Question for Brigade Staff: Shall we consider the NWMP a military/paramilitary organization?  I would be in favor of this. 

CAVEAT: This is a question regarding the Northwest Mounted Police, completely separate from the later Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
That works for me.  I think Jack has made an excellent case for it.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Buffalo Creek Law Dog on February 11, 2020, 10:06:24 PM
Just to support Jack's submission on whether the NWMP were Military or police, they were both, and wore yellow trouser stripes and other yellow uniform markings indicating that they were mounted cavalry troops.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 12, 2020, 03:47:50 AM
This will be sufficient: I Ask all brigade staff to PM me with their decision in this matter, and I will give you the result asap.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Buffalo Creek Law Dog on February 12, 2020, 12:01:55 PM
In a nutshell, the NWMP were military with police powers.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 12, 2020, 02:45:44 PM
Thanks, Chuck!

(Now to get busy enlisting the aid of the Russians in this vote! Say ... is your son around? ;D )
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 12, 2020, 04:49:00 PM
The 1895 has always been legal.  Save the vodka for better things.  Like cleaning battery terminals . . .

Fwiw, Democrat caucas voting software is not being used here.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 12, 2020, 04:53:26 PM
If the 76 is approved, how close to military issue does it have to be?  I don't believe that Chiappa makes the NWMP version any longer.  Can they be a work in progress?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 12, 2020, 04:55:19 PM
Also FWIW, I used a Vetterli with Vitali speed loaders last year, and got beat by 2 trapdoors and a Spencer.  Then I used a Sharps carbine out in Colorado, and set fast overall time for the match.  Target acquisition and accuracy are far more important than the action type in the Skirmish Scenario.  But evaluations will be ongoing.  Should repeaters show dominance, a separate class may be reinstated.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 12, 2020, 04:57:16 PM
It has to be the musket stocked NWMP version.  Any other version will be relegated to Civilian Long Action class.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 12, 2020, 05:00:20 PM
Gotcha.  Are there any other lever guns that were issued?  I can only think of the m1895. 
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 12, 2020, 05:09:04 PM
To my knowledge, that's it.  I used a .30 Krag M1895 Musket in 2018, and did quite well, but only because I figured out that the only time you have the action closed is when your firing a shot.  Other than that you constantly top the thing off.  And single load if you run empty in a longer string.  You ain't shooting, you need to be loading.  Which is good advice for any repeater really.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 12, 2020, 05:36:12 PM
... I figured out that the only time you have the action closed is when your firing a shot.  Other than that you constantly top the thing off.  And single load if you run empty in a longer string.  You ain't shooting, you need to be loading.  Which is good advice for any repeater really.

Good advice!  However, since I don't believe a '76 (or earlier) Winchester can be topped up with the action open (... I'll have to double check ...) can such a rifle be topped up on the move if being carried with the hammer down on a spent round?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 12, 2020, 05:41:09 PM
To my knowledge, that's it.  I used a .30 Krag M1895 Musket in 2018, and did quite well, but only because I figured out that the only time you have the action closed is when your firing a shot.  Other than that you constantly top the thing off.  And single load if you run empty in a longer string.  You ain't shooting, you need to be loading.  Which is good advice for any repeater really.

If you're not shooting, you're moving.  If you're not moving you're reloading.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Niederlander on February 12, 2020, 06:14:43 PM
Good advice!  However, since I don't believe a '76 (or earlier) Winchester can be topped up with the action open (... I'll have to double check ...) can such a rifle be topped up on the move if being carried with the hammer down on a spent round?
As long as the hammer is down on an empty case or an empty chamber, you can top off your magazine.  Where it really becomes an issue is when you get to a place where there are more targets than you've got rounds in the rifle.  Otherwise, as Drydock said, you should be reloading any time you're moving.  I can say, though, with a '95 Winchester that isn't set up for stripper clips, it's just a slow rifle to reload.  A '76 is faster. (I've used both in competition.)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 12, 2020, 06:44:42 PM
Yes, action closed on a fired case would be the way to go I believe.  (The 1895 is just a whole different critter)  And Smoke, to be really good you need to be reloading on the move!
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 12, 2020, 07:28:25 PM
Yes, action closed on a fired case would be the way to go I believe.  (The 1895 is just a whole different critter)  And Smoke, to be really good you need to be reloading on the move!

I ain't that good :'(. 
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 13, 2020, 07:38:31 PM
OK Jack, per the Brigade Staff, the NWMP is recognized as a military unit, and as such the NWMP variant of the 1876 is allowed as a military arm,  This applies to the NWMP prior to 1905, and to the Governor Generals Guard usage.  (If I understand the latter correctly.) Including both Victorian and Expansion usage.

There were no dissenting votes, though there was a procedural concern about the BP  class SS vs Repeaters, which is ongoing, and will be under evaluation, as indeed it has been for the prior 2 years.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 13, 2020, 09:27:46 PM
Great news, Drydock!

Actually, the Governor General's Body Guard was not the only regular uniformed cavalry unit issued Winchester carbines for service in the 1885 Rebellion.  The Winnipeg Cavalry Troop and the Cavalry School Corps (as the unit was then named ... it later became the Royal Canadian Dragoons) were also issued with the same configuration of Model 1876 Winchester carbines ... in my earlier post I only mentioned the GGBG specifically, because I happened to have a photograph.  (I think my wording was something like "... regular cavalry units, such as the GGBG ...".

As documentary evidence, here is the actual tabular statement submitted by Deputy Adjutant General Lt.Col. W.H. Jackson, who was the Principal Supply, Pay and Transport Officer of the the Field force, outlining the "Arms and Ammunition Issued to Corps of the North West Forces, Settlers, and others", which formed part of the voluminous Report on the whole rebellion and the military expedition to quell it which was presented to Parliament in 1886.  The units highlighted in yellow are the regular established and uniformed cavalry units issued with Winchesters ... other units also issued Winchesters (Dominion Land Surveyors Intelligence Corps, Moose Mountain Scouts, Rocky Mountain Rangers, Alberta Field Force) were non-uniformed provisional (i.e. temporary) militia units raised solely for the duration of the Rebellion.

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on February 13, 2020, 09:33:34 PM
I will happily leave the regulation of appropriate Canadian Units in your hands, Jack!


"Moose Mountain Scouts"    For some reason that one really makes me smile.  I'm probably over influenced by Bullwinkle cartoons . . .
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 14, 2020, 10:07:39 PM
Smoke:

The earlier dicussion of my down-sized faux NWMP Model 1876 carbine, built on a Model 1873 action, made me realize that I had never photographed the two together, so I have corrected that to some extent with this cell-phone photo ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1000x386q90/922/0jlR8b.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 15, 2020, 09:00:12 PM
RSJ...that is really cool.  Thanks for posting it!  I'm really tempted to find one of the 1875's.  How does yours run?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 15, 2020, 10:45:44 PM
...  I'm really tempted to find one of the 1875's.  How does yours run?

Now you've got me confused ... don't know whether you meant to type "1873" or "1876" ...   ;)

The 1873/76 faux carbine runs fairly well, but is a little balky ... because of the age of the action, i suspect. 

The 1876 repro runs quite well, and has given me no problems.  Mind you, I haven't really run it all that hard, so  .... "touch wood"!

My 1876 is a Chaparral ... and there was a lengthy thread ongoing for a long time on the 1876 Winchester forum here on CAS City about the quality control problems apparently experienced by many who bought one ... none of which seemed to affect my particular rifle, fortunately.  (That may have been because my particular rifle was  one of the very first batch of the NWMP-pattern carbine produced by Chaparral, way back when the "sole importer/distributor" was supposed to be Scott Meyer of Western Nevada Firearms (apparently because he gave them the idea and supplied the specs and such they needed to get it into production ... but after the first batch or two, they apparently began letting others import and sell them ...) Anyway, I bought mine from him, back in 2007, and it is one of the very early ones they serial numbered to coincide with the known Winchester serial numbers of original NWMP carbines, all of which are listed in the "bible" ... Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police, 1873-1973.  The serial number on my Chaparral is the sixth on the list of original Winchester serial numbers! 

Getting back to the "issues" many experienced with their Chaparral rifles, as discussed on the thread i mentioned above ... one chap detailed a number of problems he experienced, having to return it for correction of some issue or another at least three or four times ... so someone on the thread asked why he didn't just demand his money back and buy a Uberti-made rifle.  His response was classic ... he stated that the Chaparral barrels were known to be extremely well-rifled, resulting in superb accuracy, so he was prepared to go through all of the grief he was experiencing to retain that accuracy. 

As for the accuracy of my own rifle, follow this link to a thread of mine on that same 1876 Winchester forum in 2010, entitled "Chaparral NWMP carbine wins Long Range match!":  https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,33868.msg438927.html#msg438927 (https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,33868.msg438927.html#msg438927)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 16, 2020, 09:01:03 AM
"1876"

I'm gonna blame it on my fingers being taped up....not my brain being fuzzy.

Thanks for the info and the link.  I had read about issues with the Chaparral guns so I was leery about them.  Is there any way to tell a first gen gun?  I would suppose that the name of the importer on the rifle?

BTW what leather gear/accouterments are you planning on using with this?  NWMP pattern stuff or just what you already have in hand?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 16, 2020, 08:39:26 PM
Smoke:

I honestly can't say how easy or difficult it would be to locate a Chaparral-made NWMP carbine nowadays .... they are no longer in production, and i have been "out of the market", so to speak, for well over a decade ...

My carbine is not specially marked to indicate the importer/distributor ... just "Chaparral Repeating Arms" ...

As for leather and other accoutrements for this impression, I am still in th planning stages,with a few options ...

The only "carbine specific" item I'll need is a cartridge belt or bandolier for the .45-75 rifle cartridges.  Two original NWMP leather bandoliers used with the Winchester .45-75 cartridge are illustrated in Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police -

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/936x594q90/922/gM1Lao.jpg)

One option would be for me to make a version of the upper bandolier from scratch ... but that would necessitate a lot of sewing for the cartidge loops!  The lower version appears to be a modified form of the British Pattern 1882 bandolier (for 50 Martini-Henry cartridges) - note the caption even mentions that flaps originally covering the cartridge loops have been removed.  I happen to already have no less than three reproduction P'82 bandoliers amongst my existing kit (bought two, won a third as a shoot prize) so I am seriously contemplating adapting one of them to closely match the second original configuration shown above ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/700x468q90/923/RTuqVR.jpg)

I would remove all of the flaps (which are just stitched to the back of the main bandolier body) and also remove the brass studs for the flap straps (which are held in place with machine screws from the rear.)  Then I would remove five of the rifle loops from each end (thereby reducing the capacity to forty rifle cartridges like the originals) and would then merely need to sew on six pistol cartidge loops at each end.  (Other than the last step, the modifications will be easily reversible.)

Another rather intriguing possibility I have also been mulling over would be to try to locate a suitable reproduction of the Anson Mills cartridge belts, well documented as having seen fairly extensive use by the NWMP -

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/895x594q90/923/Naji3V.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/829x594q90/922/U6F3Al.jpg)

I am still trying to ascertain whether these would have been the dark blue webbing or brown/tan ... I am currently leaning toward the view that they don't appear dark enough in these photos to be the dark blue version ...  One advantage of using a Mills belt, I suppose, would be that it would serve as the means of carrying both rifle and pistol cartridges  ... as can be made out on the chap standing by his horse ... rendering a separte rifle ammunition bandolier unnecessary.  However, I am as yet unsure whether the configurations of this belt available in reproduction form will be suitable to adapt, since one can see in the photo of the Constable standing by his horse that there are some pistol cartridge loops to the right of the buckle, and also that the rifle cartridge loops appear to be set below center, with the cartridges apparently protruding above the loops enough that the rims are roughly level with the top edge of the belt. I am a "large lad", so would be wearing the Mills belt extended out to near maximum, thus exposing quite a bit of belt without cartridge loops on either side of the buckle .... which should  hopefully give enough room to add some pistol cartridge loops.  However, since the available Mills reproductions are set up for .45-70 Govt. cartridges, the whole idea won't work unless the bottlenecked .45-75 cartridges can be pushed far enough into the loops.  Does anyone on the forum have a .45-70 Mills belt plus access to a .45-75 cartridge to try in it?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 17, 2020, 04:17:39 PM
RSJ....excellent post as always.

The leather bandoleer sure looks like they took a 1882 and modded it to work for them.  I think it would be an easy mod.  Remove all the excess, cut down the end loops and re-install.  It appears from the photos that they even installed the new cut down loops in the same spot as the old loops.  The thread holes appear to line up.  They would have had to line the loops for .45 cal pistol cartridges of course.

The Mills belt is interesting.  It has some similarities to a couple different models.  I don't recall seeing something exactly like that though.  One of the issues is that Mills would make small runs of belts what ever way the customer wanted them made.

As you know, WPG makes a bunch of these. There are a few other makers of repros also but i don't know if they are like that.

I do not have a .45-75 to compare fit with a .45-70 in a Mills belt.  Sorry I cannot help you there.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 17, 2020, 06:20:49 PM
As for my other leather equipment. including waist belt and holster, I also have some existing gear which it may be possible to modify to NWMP specifications, failing which I will make it.

The holster used by the Force through to about 1905 was a good size, with a particularly large flap secured by a stud mounted on the holster body which engaged through a hole in the flap - left. above. Unfortunately, but understandably, the British flap holsters currently available as reproductions from various sources all seem to follow the British War Department approved pattern, having a somewhat smaller/shallower flap secured by a strap attached to the holster body, which reached across the lower part of the flap to engage a stud mounted on the flap. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/673x594q90/923/ndiwvU.jpg)

I already have a number of reproduction British military holsters, and will be seeing if one of them can be adapted to the NWMP configuration ... if not, I will make one.

NWMP waistbelts of that era were also rather different from the reproduction British belts which are fairly readily available.  The earliest version used a "snake buckle" ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x290q90/923/fqZkIE.jpg)

The Canadian 1899 Oliver Pattern Equipment belt (with a reproduction available from What Price Glory) is actually quite close in appearance -

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x130q90/922/iJpiwu.jpg)

- and I may try to adapt the one I have for this impression ... although that would require addition of some pistol cartridge loops - a permanent modification I'd rather avoid, although I have been thinking of trying a separate slide-on (or clip-on) set of loops ...

Alternatively, I may make my own belt - either the above snake buckle pattern, or one of the simpler and more conventionally buckled belts seen in one various period photographs ... and surviving as artifacts ... with a few different buckle configurations, although apparently with similar arrangementsm of pistol cartridge loops -

- 1 -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/600x464q90/921/lRTkVO.jpg)

- 2 -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/600x465q90/923/2xQ7FR.jpg)

- 3 -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/542x562q90/922/WzebVy.jpg)

A few other accoutrements I will need:

Revolver lanyards were apparently first issued to NWMP Other Ranks in 1886, made of "cod line ... stained with coffee". If I decide to use a lanyard, it will likely be one of my existing tan/khaki ones, although possibly dyed a bit "browner".  The white lanyard used presently is relatively "modern", not appearing until about 1905.

Another indispensible item of kit with 19th century "British" uniforms - which have few, if any, pockets - will be the white haversack used until about 1900.  No problem here, since they used the standard British patterns also used by the Canadian Militia, and I of course have reproductions.   

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/659x562q90/924/hNxyV0.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 17, 2020, 06:33:02 PM
Smoke:

I like your idea of just shortening six of the existing cartridge loops at each end on the modified P'82 bandolier and, indeed, it does look like that is exactly what may have been done in the case of the original.  Although, as you say, the shortened loops would need inserts/liners to hold the revolver cartridges, that would likely be a lot easier than the hassle of removing the existing loops and sewing on new loops, while avoiding the need to try to match the leather colour.

The existing loops are even a little generous for .45-75 cartridges, but only to the extent that the rounds are pleasantly loose in the loops (which will make them easy to withdraw) ... they definitely won't fall through.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 18, 2020, 08:05:45 AM
Never mind....that flap is not long enough.  I do think I have seen a holster repro that has a big enough flap. 

Great pictures.  WPG now makes an Oliver pattern haversack.  I'm not sure it makes much difference.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Pitspitr on February 18, 2020, 11:02:07 AM
I will happily leave the regulation of appropriate Canadian Units in your hands, Jack!


"Moose Mountain Scouts"    For some reason that one really makes me smile.  I'm probably over influenced by Bullwinkle cartoons . . .
Yeah me too. If I were to do a Mountie impression it would be based on Dudley Do-Right  ;D
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Quick Fire on February 18, 2020, 05:33:11 PM
General, Sir, would that fall under the Hollywood uniform contest ;D
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Pitspitr on February 19, 2020, 08:20:49 AM
 ;D I guess so
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 20, 2020, 11:59:05 AM
Have you seen the WPG tunic?  Cheaper buy in but it requires some tailoring and a dye job.
http://onlinemilitaria.net/products/4066-UK-Khaki-Drill-Other-Ranks-Service-Dress-Tunic-Scottish-Pattern/

Smoke:

Yes, I am aware of that option ... but that would require a significant amount of alteration, and I'm not sure that they even offer my size.

In fact, I have dealt for years with one of WPG's suppliers to get most of my uniform items made to measure (having actually been referred directly to them by Jerry Lee when I wanted to get my red wool Highland Doublet, after WPG had quit offering it.)  I am just in the process of finalizing an order to that supplier for this stable jacket, which will be made to my specific measurements in the fabric I want for less than half the price I mentioned earlier, including international express delivery to my door. 

I am awaiting a response from my button supplier on the exact sizes of the buttons I have ordered (their site only listing them as "large" and "small") so that I can pass that information on to assist in sizing the button-holes on the stable jacket.  The dress tunic already has the button-holes on it, of course, so whatever size my new buttons are, they will have to do!  (Actually, if slightly too big or small, the button holes can either be opened or closed up a bit ...)

Perhaps I should mention, for the benefit of anyone following this thread who may wish to do something in a NWMP uniform, that I had to order a total of 50 buttons (I have specified 38 large and 12 small) that I will have some extra buttons available after putting them on both the tunic and the stable jacket ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/558x319q90/923/scipHQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 22, 2020, 02:48:44 PM
Inspired by this project, I finally got around to removing an engraving, which I have had for years, from its frame so I could get a decent scan of it.  The engraving is from "Picturesque Canada: The Country As It Was And Is", a two-volume, 880-page set published in Toronto in 1882 and was hand coloured before framing.  Seems it has been in the frame for a rather long time, because as can be seen in this reduced-scale image of the initial scan, the darkened rectangular area around this (starting just below the top caption, which reads: "The North-West: Winnipeg to the Rocky Mountains") clearly shows the outline of the matting.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/348x500q90/921/lLxBAj.jpg)

Here is a larger-scale version, cropped and colour-corrected a bit ... you will need to click on it to see it at a decent size -
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 24, 2020, 08:11:45 PM
I have been working on reconfiguring one of my existing British-pattern flap holsters to more closely resemble the NWMP holster.  It is a holster I made, and was finished very dark brown, so I have been busy stripping the finish, and removing the holster-mounted strap and flap-mounted stud, plus re-shaping the top of the holster opening slightly to permit the flap to come down further than before.   I have now given it a good scrubbing with saddle soap, and have it drying on my workbench (with a plastic-covered revolver inside for shaping ) -

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/472x562q90/921/5hVhCo.jpg)

The holster is still very damp in thos photo, so will dry to a lot lighter shade which, when finished with "leather balm", should end up a proper slightly russet medium brown.  Back when I made this holster I didn't bother with an end-plug, but I am going to have to cut the tip back by about an inch and a half to more correct proportions, and will add a plug while I am re-stitching the end of the seam ... so I have a round furniture-leg "shaper" in place while it is drying.

Looking at period photos, I can see that the hole in the flap, left by removal of the previous stud, is a bit too far from the edge of the flap to be entirely correct, but I need to add another hole closer to the edge, to allow two flap positions on the stud which will be installed on the hoster body, because this holster will be used with several different revolvers ... all of which have  been "tried" in it already ... and a somewhat "adjustable" flap position will actually be an asset.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/991x397q90/921/GMoFXX.jpg)

Off to the side of the first picture can be seen the reporoduction Pattern 1882 bandolier I am also re-working - with flaps already removed and a start on removing its existing finish ... also too dark, and with an overly "glazed" surface.  Indeed, one reason I haven't really made use of this particular bandolier is that it was too dark and "shiny" ... whereas, when redone, it should have a much more "correct" medium brown oil-finished look.  An added bonus of the stripping/refinishing process is that the glaring white stitching will be stained to a much better match with the refinished leather ...
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 25, 2020, 05:00:49 PM
Looks like you are making good progress!! 

Are you going to cut down and line the loops for pistol cartridges?

Did you order the utility/field blouse?

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 25, 2020, 07:21:07 PM
Did you order the utility/field blouse?

Not yet ... have to get my current measurments taken, so I can send those along.

I had another little "online victory" the other day, relating to the broad yellow stripes I need to apply to an existing pair of dark blue serge trousers I am planning to use.  (They are former Royal Military College of Canada dress trousers  - effectively Victorian-era Inantry trousers with red piping at the outer leg seams.)  I had been planning to use wide cotton twill tape, which I would have to stain deep yellow ... although I knew that the colour would undoubtdly start fading right away. 

However, whle I was doing various "mounted police" related searches online, what should pop up but this listing on a UK-based military outfitter's website ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/900x521q90/921/1fB4fE.png)

The width (45 mm ... i.e. 1.75 ") is of course the exact size required.

Needless to say, three metres of it were ordered immediately, and the order has been shipped!


Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 25, 2020, 07:29:47 PM
Forgot to answer your other question ... yes, that is how I intend to deal with the pistol cartridge loops.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 25, 2020, 07:47:14 PM
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47215047_10156360354647851_53039504621043712_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_sid=a61e81&_nc_ohc=TEGWKb0qeeoAX-P91kl&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=260046cd2d2eb5bce6f052bd72991bd3&oe=5EB4E1C5)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on March 19, 2020, 11:07:37 PM
In the definite hope that this dad-blamed "global pandemic" does not throw a wrench into the works, I have been continuing with my uniform and kit preparations for the National Muster ...

- my reproduction "stable jacket" is in production ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/750x483q90/921/OHKcSM.jpg)

- a batch of reproduction NWMP buttons (for use on both the dress tunic and stable jacket) have been produced and are currently en route to me ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/558x319q90/923/scipHQ.jpg)

- a custom-made web Mills belt for both .455 revolver cartridges and .45-75 rifle cartridges that I ordered from Wolfears Equipment (Stan Dolega) has been completed I understand, although he was awaiting arrival of a buckle delivery since he does not normally carry the plain "H" buckle needed ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/750x448q90/923/bCicu7.jpg)

- the yellow worsted twill leg stripe material has arrived from the UK (although I have not yet decided if I will try to apply it myself - a hand-stitching job for me - or instead take it to the locl tailor shop I use when too lazy - or non-confident - to do things myself.)

- I have also received the period-correct "large" Sergeant's chevrons I need, with the crowns also needed to go above them en route from a different source ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/734x571q90/921/fJ2Zp0.jpg)

- I have even gone so far as to order a reproduction British Pattern 1853 Light Cavalry sabre (as seen in the above photo) which was standard issue for NWMP Sergeants ... although i am having a bit of difficulty getting a clear answer on when it can be supplied, so I may end up having to cancel that little extravagance ...)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/850x180q90/924/D4zuCm.jpg)

- meanwhile, in the "home-front leather working department", I have completed modification of an existing flap-covered holster i made years ago to as close as I could get it to NWMP pattern (... making it a fit for my original NWMP-issue .476/.455 Enfield revolver while I was at it ...) and have also completed modifications to one of my reproduction  Pattern 1882 leather bandoliers to duplicate as closely as possible the original bandolier which was obviously just such a modification pictured in "Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police" -

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/899x444q90/921/KzDzwV.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/746x743q90/924/uEGWsR.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1000x231q90/922/8766Qb.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on April 09, 2020, 11:52:26 PM
Despite the reality that the ongoing pandemic situation might cancel or postpone the Grand Muster - or might at any rate prevent my attendance - I continue with my preparations, nonetheless.

Day before yesterday I received the Mills Belt custom-made for me my by Stan Dolega (Wolf Ears Equipment, Laramie, WY) ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x574q90/921/GC0s6y.jpg)

My references indicate that the prototype US Navy belts (with loops for .50-70 rifle cartridges) purchased by the NWMP were "olive green"  - whatever that may have signified in the 1880s and something Stan was understandably unwilling to try to replicate - and were acquired with differing numbers of loops for the .45-75 rifle cartridges ... some with 30 such loops and some with 35 (... I suspect that the difference had to do with the number of such loops which would fit on different belt lengths.)  Although photographs clearly show revolver cartridge loops at the other end of the belt (i.e. to the right of the buckle when worn) there was no mention of the number of such loops.  After some consideration, I decided to have this belt (... nice and long, to fit my excessive girth ...) made with 30 of each size of loop, as seen above.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/600x243q90/921/7QWc2z.jpg)

Today, I "bit the bullet" and dyed the web portion of the belt, using a "this-oughta-be-close" mixture of brown and dark green fabric dye I had laying around.  I am pleased to say that I think it turned out quite well  ... especially since, so far as I can ascertain, not a single example of the original belts has survived, so who can say the colour is wrong!?  Still damp from the dying, here:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x441q90/921/KiE0LT.jpg)

Hanging over the laundry tub to dry ... with the rather "rustic" basement wall of my 107-year-old house as a backdrop ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/442x650q90/924/Xbo2Hp.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on April 10, 2020, 06:56:30 AM
That is really cool.  I love your attention to detail and commitment to accuracy. 

USMC had "pea green" colored web gear starting with the 1907/1910/1912 gear.  US Army had and "olive green" color also.   That seems to be a color choice around that time. 

I think your choice of color fits right in that range.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on April 10, 2020, 07:32:01 AM
Stan Dolega at Wolf’s Ears does quality work. He's built me several pairs of holsters, a pair of half flaps and a pair of open tops. A real nice guy. Your NWMP accoutrements are looking good there Rattlesnake.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Drydock on April 10, 2020, 10:06:19 AM
That is very nice indeed!  Hmmm, now that Wolf Ears knows the pattern, might I need a USN belt?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: River City John on April 10, 2020, 11:22:12 AM
Very nice, RJR!

I'm guessing the olive drab will eventually fade to just plain old drab.

RCJ
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on April 10, 2020, 05:47:34 PM
The Mills belt has dried after the dye job, and is now re-assembled.  As I fully expected, once dry the tone is significantly less "intense" - probably much closer to the original colour ... 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x322q90/924/It5I5S.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x293q90/922/Gt8YIP.jpg)

I'm happy with it, at any rate ... and definitley pleased that I didn't screw up a brand new acquisition.

(In case the problems of my remotely hosted images recur, here - hopefully - are "backups" ...)

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on April 11, 2020, 07:45:32 AM
That is very nice indeed!  Hmmm, now that Wolf Ears knows the pattern, might I need a USN belt?

The USN/NWMP/RSJ model?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on April 11, 2020, 12:12:16 PM
The USN/NWMP/RSJ model?

Sounds like a good designation ...  ;D
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: PJ Hardtack on April 11, 2020, 01:49:37 PM
Anything posted by "Rattlesnake Jack" is always factual and of great interest to both history buffs and firearms enthusiasts. He knows whereof he speaks.


It should be noted that as far as Canadians are concerned, we have never doubted the para-military structure of the NWMP/RNWMP/RCMP. They are regarded as part of our military, subject to the same Queen's Orders & Regulations in addition to any Acts governing their municipal, provincial and federal policing.

They qualify for the same military decorations for service in theatres of operation where the Army serves. Many served in the Balkans War, Africa, Haiti and other locations on UN missions.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on June 24, 2020, 09:49:18 PM
Bumping this up....  :)

Rattlesnake Jake, did you get this all together?

Any pics?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on June 25, 2020, 01:39:31 AM
I do have the uniform parts and the other kit pretty much completed (... as detailed in some of the images I have posted since this thread started ...) but the closure of the border due to the pandemic unfortunately prevents me from attending the National Muster this year, so I sort of put things on hold. 

In fact, things were so shut down in India (for the same reason) that the canvas stable/patrol jacket I ordered from there is still not in hand (perhaps not even made yet ... I'll have to inquire.)

I did get the appropriate yellow stripes sewn onto the dark blue serge trousers I will be using, but
I have not yet sewn the Sergeants stripes and crown on my tunic, as I was waiting to receive the stable jacket and then planned to sew the rank insignia on both ... (right sleeve only, as became official in 1882 and was often seen prior to that date.)

One thing not mentioned previously in this thread which I have added to my NWMP "ensemble" is a fringed buckskin jacket, for use as an alternative form of patrol dress, as seen in numerous period photographs of NWMP personnel -

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1191x500q90/924/HaB50t.jpg)

Years ago, I bought a fringed buckskin jacket at a Native Crafts store in Cody Wyoming (when I was there for a cowboy action shoot) but seldom wore it because it was a very creamy near-white color. Unfortunately, I neglected to take a photo of it in its original color before I took a plunge recently and dyed it to an "earthier" tone, closer in appearance to smoke-tanned buckskin.  Here is a cellphone camera shot I took of it hung up in the basement, drying after being dyed ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/910x596q90/924/6efwPY.jpg)

At any rate, hopefully I will get everything finished in the not too distant future, and will take some photos of the various combinations.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: River City John on June 25, 2020, 07:01:36 AM
It's not authentic until you ride in on a horse.

(Which I would dearly love to see your majestic presence perched upon a noble steed, coming over that last hillock on the road into Camp Pitspitr.)

RCJ
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on July 01, 2020, 04:07:31 PM
I do have the uniform parts and the other kit pretty much completed (... as detailed in some of the images I have posted since this thread started ...) but the closure of the border due to the pandemic unfortunately prevents me from attending the National Muster this year, so I sort of put things on hold. 

In fact, things were so shut down in India (for the same reason) that the canvas stable/patrol jacket I ordered from there is still not in hand (perhaps not even made yet ... I'll have to inquire.)

I did get the appropriate yellow stripes sewn onto the dark blue serge trousers I will be using, but
I have not yet sewn the Sergeants stripes and crown on my tunic, as I was waiting to receive the stable jacket and then planned to sew the rank insignia on both ... (right sleeve only, as became official in 1882 and was often seen prior to that date.)

One thing not mentioned previously in this thread which I have added to my NWMP "ensemble" is a fringed buckskin jacket, for use as an alternative form of patrol dress, as seen in numerous period photographs of NWMP personnel -

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1191x500q90/924/HaB50t.jpg)

Years ago, I bought a fringed buckskin jacket at a Native Crafts store in Cody Wyoming (when I was there for a cowboy action shoot) but seldom wore it because it was a very creamy near-white color. Unfortunately, I neglected to take a photo of it in its original color before I took a plunge recently and dyed it to an "earthier" tone, closer in appearance to smoke-tanned buckskin.  Here is a cellphone camera shot I took of it hung up in the basement, drying after being dyed ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/910x596q90/924/6efwPY.jpg)

At any rate, hopefully I will get everything finished in the not too distant future, and will take some photos of the various combinations.

That is neat....looking forward to the complete outfit.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Quick Fire on October 29, 2020, 02:46:43 PM
Rattlesnake Jack, I would be interested in 5 of the large buttons and 2 of the smaller buttons if you still have some extra
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 28, 2020, 01:07:18 AM
Quick Fire:

For some reason I never got notification of your post on October 29 ... nor your PM of October 23 ... just happened to run across them now.  I do still have extra buttons. Check your PMs ...
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on November 28, 2020, 04:47:30 PM
RsJ...did you ever get your stable jacket?  Any pics of it or the whole outfit?

Looking at the pics in this thread and online it appears that the stable jackets came from several vendors or were made up locally?  There is seems to be more than a bit of variation in them.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Quick Fire on January 09, 2021, 10:38:39 AM
RsJ, can you direct me ti where I can purchase the correct insignia and the correct haversack. Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on January 09, 2021, 11:25:44 AM
RsJ, can you direct me ti where I can purchase the correct insignia and the correct haversack. Thanks in advance

I'm not RsJ but What Price Glory carries the 1899 Oliver Pattern haversack.   IMA carries a P1871 Haversack.  That one is available on Ebay.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Quick Fire on January 09, 2021, 05:35:34 PM
Smoke, I haven't been able to find that P1871 on ebay
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on January 09, 2021, 07:11:56 PM
Dang!  I checked Ebay too and the IMA website.  Sold out. :-[

sorry about that.

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Quick Fire on January 09, 2021, 07:41:10 PM
Thanks anyway, Smoke. I'm sure RsJ will know more about where I can purchase one
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on January 09, 2021, 07:47:55 PM
This is the one from WPG.  It is a correct Canadian pattern for the Boer War.

https://onlinemilitaria.net/products/6144-1899-Pattern-Oliver-Haversack/
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Quick Fire on January 10, 2021, 08:05:49 AM
I saw that one Smoke, but I need the earlier one for the time period I am trying to portray. Thanks anyway
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 14, 2021, 12:52:46 AM
Quick Fire, and other GAF Comrades:

Apologies yet again for my delay in responding to recent posts (... as well as to your PM inquiries, Quick Fire, which I will address here in this post ...) but nothing I do seems to activate notification from CAS City to me of any responses to threads I have started, or posted in, nor do I get notice of any personal messages for me ...
 :-\  ???  ::)

Anyway, an excellent place to get a proper Pattern 1871 haversack would be "Poor Richards' British Gun Shop & Historical Reproductions" in Phillipsburg, NJ - http://www.richardsreproductions.com/great-britain.html (http://www.richardsreproductions.com/great-britain.html)  I have bought quite a few items from Jay Richards and have been well pleased with all of them.

As for correct insignia, there really isn't much (if anything) available in the way of reproduction NWMP insignia.. However, the main reason there are no such reproductions ... and why that isn't really a problem for a NWMP impression ... is because there was no such insignia for anyone below Commissioned Officer status!

Other Ranks (i.e. NCOs, Constables, Sub-Constables) had no insignia other than the NWMP buttons on their uniforms, together with such rank chevrons/badges or trade/efficiciency badges they were entitled to wear.   

So, ideally, you just keep yourself at a "lowly" rank  ... and then you "don't need no stinkin' badges" ... ;)

If you look at period photos of NWMP Other Ranks ... you will see what I mean: no badges on headdress, nor on the collars or elsewhere on the tunic ... except for rank insignia for corporals and above -  ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/913x550q90/922/x2AayB.jpg)


North West Mounted Police NCO rank insignia from 1876 until into the 20th century were as follows:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/817x474q90/923/VU2LeH.jpg)

As I believe I mentioned earlier, being rather too long in the tooth (and too 'bulky', frankly) to have any chance of credibly passing myself off as an active Constable, I have elected to do my impression with the rank of Sergeant, which may lend a wee bit more credibility ... though I will certainly not be anywhere as svelte as Sgt. Bagley here -

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/766x500q90/922/MdBXdc.jpg)

I have yet to sew on my rank insignia ... mainly because when I got my canvas stable jacket, I decided it needed a bit of alteration, so I delayed attachment of rank insignia until I have that done.   I didn't like the spacing of the buttons on the stable jacket when it arrived ... they were spaced too close together and grouped a bit too high to look quite like the spacing and positioning in the period photos ... and since the jacket actually arrived quite a bit too big (... as if that would usually be a problem with clothes for me! ...) I could actually take apart the whole front and move the edge seams in to eliminate the existing buttonholes completely, so I will be able to re-position the button holes and buttons more to my liking. Taking the front closure apart like that required me to remove the standing collar, for re-attachment later once the front closure is reworked.  It turned into a project which was starting to challenge the limits of my modest tailoring skills so I put it aside for a while, but must really get back at it now that the Holiday Season is behind us.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Quick Fire on January 14, 2021, 07:13:56 AM
Thanks RsJ for your response. BTW where did you get your seargents chevrons and crown.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 14, 2021, 03:15:02 PM
Quick fire:

As you likely know, Other Ranks chevrons and crowns used on tunics during the Victorian era were larger than most such insignia worn on modern service uniforms, so those intended for present-day dress and mess dress uniforms are best for re-enacting purposes, both for their larger size and also because they are available with the appropriate scarlet backing (or other appropriate backing colours such as blue, black and green, as may be appropriate.)  These are the ones I ordered -
https://www.wyedeanstores.com/3-bar-service-stripe-sergeant-queens-royal-hussars-badge (https://www.wyedeanstores.com/3-bar-service-stripe-sergeant-queens-royal-hussars-badge)

Similar items are available from Canadian uniform accessory suppliers, but the prices are similar or even higher ... and the other reason I ordered from this UK vendor is that it was the only place I found the correct "Canadian yellow" (as they call it) 1¾" wide worsted twill braid (tape) for the outer leg seams of the overalls (trousers), breeches and such (e.g. I will also use it as the distinctive coloured band around the bottom of my pillbox cap) -
https://www.wyedeanstores.com/image/cache/haberdashery/narrow-fabrics/laces/twill-lace/45mm-royal-canadian-mounted-police-yellow-worsted-twill-lace-800x800.jpg (https://www.wyedeanstores.com/image/cache/haberdashery/narrow-fabrics/laces/twill-lace/45mm-royal-canadian-mounted-police-yellow-worsted-twill-lace-800x800.jpg)

My crowns (as worn above the Sergeant stripe) are Canadian Army Dress Uniform Warrant Officer crowns, which were given to me by a friend in the Canadian Forces so I didn't have to buy mine, but the equivalent item with this same UK vendor, for appropriate size, would be this:
https://www.wyedeanstores.com/badges-by-type-rank-badges/warrant-officer-class-2-wo2-lifeguards-hand-embroidered-badge-large-crown?limit=100 (https://www.wyedeanstores.com/badges-by-type-rank-badges/warrant-officer-class-2-wo2-lifeguards-hand-embroidered-badge-large-crown?limit=100) 

For clarity, when ordering for export from the UK you would pay the lower "exVAT" (excluding Value Added Tax) prices shown in finer print below the main listing price ...

By the way, for more trivial background information than you likely want to be burdened with, this is the so-called "Queen's Crown" in use both during the current reign of Queen Elizabeth II and also during Queen Victoria's reign. (Although stylistically a bit different, modern insignia are similar enough to be satisfactory.)  I am constantly correcting people who insist on using a "Queen's Crown" and "King's Crown" distinction (which you may have seen mentioned) but that is not historically accurate, and is nothing more than a convenient means of differentiation which really got started only in the latter part of the 20th century, since Elizabeth II became the monarch, by collectors of relatively modern military badges ... based on a mere coincidence. 

In fact, at the beginning of his or her reign, each monarch chooses which of several British royal crowns will be depicted - usually in a rather artistically stylized form - in conjunction with their personal royal cypher, and that crown also is used throughout their reign on other official insignia, such as military badges.  The crown used during Queen Victoria's reign was the "St. Edward Crown" ... but in fact she simply chose to continue to use the same crown as her predecessors, going back to at least George II ... so it has been chosen by more Kings than Queens.  However, when her son succeeded her on the throne in 1901 as King Edward VII, he decided to change to a representation of the "Tudor Crown", and his 20th century male successors (George V, Edward VIII very briefly, and then George VI) also happened to choose the same crown, but when Elizabeth succeeded her father in 1952, she opted to again use a representation of the St. Edward Crown ... so it really has nothing to do with whether the monarch is male or female (as this erroneous modern way of referring to the two styles would suggest) but rather is a matter of the personal choice of each individual monarch ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/892x535q90/924/Lc69kK.jpg)

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on January 14, 2021, 03:37:22 PM
Taught me something today, Rattlesnake. I also believed it was the sex of the monarch that determined the style. Just a heads up to all you British reenactors, this month on the 22-23 in 1879 the Battle of Rorkes Drift occurred. That happens to be our club shoot so the Webleys will see some action along with my 1873 Winchester musket and its socket bayonet. Time to sing Men of Harlech.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on January 14, 2021, 04:44:49 PM
Ed,

That is an outstanding rifle and a great outfit!!

Since we are talking about British reenactors, What Price Glory is now carrying a Blue Serge Patrol jacket.

https://onlinemilitaria.net/products/7789-British-Blue-Wool-Patrol-Jacket/

(https://onlinemilitaria.net/old/pic/British%20Blue%20Wool%20Patrol%20Jacket_L.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Quick Fire on January 14, 2021, 06:41:19 PM
Cool
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 15, 2021, 12:48:02 AM
Just for the heck of it, here are the Royal Cyphers of the four kings who preceded Victoria on the throne ...

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 15, 2021, 01:16:48 AM
And the Royal Cypher of Victoria ...

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Major 2 on January 28, 2021, 01:52:10 PM
I saw this looking for something else...

I thought someone here might have interest  :)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Northwestern-Royal-Canadian-Mtd-Police-Colt-1872-Single-Action-Army-Holster/164629072974?_trkparms=aid%3D1110012%26algo%3DSPLICE.SOIPOST%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20201210111451%26meid%3Db766582c9c2c42ac8a4eeb0a5ea40912%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D164639413550%26itm%3D164629072974%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedSellersOtherItemsV2WithMLRv3%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on January 28, 2021, 05:13:52 PM
I might have a line on a RNWMP Colt NS, if it works out I’ll post photos. Always wanted one.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on January 31, 2021, 10:10:23 PM
Careful folks, the holster in the Ebay link posted by Major2 is not a NWMP holster, to my knowledge, and differs from the standard patterns of NWMP/RNWMP?RCMP holster.  It appears to be a bog-standard British/Empire/Commonwealth holster as used by military officers ... which has been "mangled" by having part of the holster body cut away to expose the trigger and triggerguard.

As I posted earlier in this thread, all issued Canadian Mounted Police holsters have always differed from this standard military pattern in the method of securing the flap (with the sole exception of a holster similar to this which was worn only by Sergeants Major and Commissioned Officers for a brief period in the 1890s and a few years after 1900.)  Military holsters such as the one on Ebay have a stud on the flap, with a strap coming from the back to engage the stud. The revolver holsters issued by the Mounted Police had the stud mounted to the body of the holster, engaging a slot/hole on the flap ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/879x300q90/923/AOGss6.jpg)

Mind you, I guess one shouldn't expect too much from an Ebay seller who uses the description "Northwestern Canadian Mid. Police" ... and talks about a "canadian mounted police single action colt revolver"  - which is something that has never existed - and mentions "the 1870 era of it's use", considering that the NWMP used the Adams revolver when it came into being in 1874, and thereafter the Enfield revolver until 1904 ...

   ::)

As for the Colt New Service revolver, at least in relation to GAF activities, I would extend the caution that the Colt New Service was not introduced until late 1898, and was not adopted by the newly renamed RNWMP until 1904/5.

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Major 2 on January 31, 2021, 10:31:25 PM
Good on you RJ ,  thanks for correcting that faux pas

I had no dog in the fight 
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Quick Fire on February 01, 2021, 02:33:40 PM
RsJ, another great post. From my research, while the 73 colt peacemaker was never issued at least one was owned as a private purchase by an officer. Also several  colt made revolvers were owned by officers of the NWMP, including an 1851 navy conversion and an 1878 colt double action revolver.
 
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on February 03, 2021, 10:10:12 PM
Well my 1917 vintage Colt New Service .45 RNWMP revolver arrived. This has always been one of my grail guns. The SN is 145404 [crane matches] with RNWMP 1897 stamped on the backstrap and MP on the grip bottom. I looked in my Arms and Accoutrements book [page 189] and found it in a shipment of 200 Colt NS’s shipped to the Commissioner of the RNWMP on October 16, 1919. It looks super and has a great trigger pull. It has black rubber grips that were damaged and repaired, the ejector rod button was incorrect [maybe a OP, wasn’t screwed on correctly but wasn’t cross threaded] so I robbed one from my heinz .38 NS and ordered a repro for the .38. I horse traded a 1915 .455 British NS that was all original but the finish was not very good imo. I had 600.00 in the .455 but I’m not sure how many years ago that was. The issue with the RNWMP Colt that I hope you guys can help me with is that the bbl is stamped .45 COLT while the cylinder is a .455 but the patina on the frame, crane, bbl and cylinder look a 100% match to me. Nothing is refinished, every stamping is sharp, screws are clean. Correct me if I’m wrong but are the 5 digit sn guns .455 while 6 digit sn guns are .45colt? Thinking the cylinder has been switched but when? Would a RNWMP armourer replaced a damaged .45 cylinder with a .455 if that was all he had? Could it have been shipped that way and never corrected? Really doesn’t matter to me as its the real deal even if it is mixed up. Here are pictures the seller posted. I’ll take better ones tomorrow.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 03, 2021, 10:44:12 PM
That is a nice gun! 

Is the cylinder reamed for .45 Colt?  I have 1915ish NS that went ot England.  It is .455 but was reamed for .45 Colt. 
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on February 03, 2021, 10:50:43 PM
Nothing’s been reamed, the cylinder is original .455, 45lc or 45 Schofield will not chamber. I have .455 loads and plan on shooting it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 03, 2021, 11:07:58 PM
Interesting.  Maybe Colt used up left over parts after the war to fulfill the contract?  Colt certainly has a history of using "not correct" parts up to fill orders or push products out the door.

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 04, 2021, 12:36:23 AM
Perhaps another possibility is that the barrel was replaced, using a .45 Colt-marked one?  As you know, the RCMP purchased these revolvers in both calibers, with .455 to be issued west of Ontario (the environs of the original NWMP and RNWMP, while those in.45 Colt were kept in the East.  Perhaps a rebarreling was required, and only a .45 Colt-marked barrel was available at the time?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on February 04, 2021, 10:29:17 AM
I’ll have to backtrack some. I tried my .455 loads this am and only 2 out of the 6 fired, the other 4 had just a very slight inpact on the primers. Too much space between the rear of the cylinder and the breechface. I tried my .45 autorim loads and while they were a very tight fit they all fired. Then I tried some 45acp in moon clips and they chambered but were problematic as the differences in cases and clip dimensions made some fit ok and others too tight to work smoothly. I also tried .45acp without moon clips and all fired and were easily extracted with a fingernail. Sooo, the bbl is probably legit and the cylinder is the question mark. It doesn’t look like a shaved cylinder as there is an ‘H’ stamp on it. The ejector has definitely been messed with though. I wonder if the front of the cylinder has been faced off a little? The cylinder mic’s 1.595. No endshake and total lock up on all 6 chambers. But the final insult to this 102 year old is the topstrap has been d&t and then plugged and touch up blued. I found that in the daylight. Much sadness. Hurt my heart. Why would somebody do that to a true historical Colt? But it rings steel, has a buttery smooth action and has a true RNWMP provenance. A historical shooter.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 04, 2021, 05:02:41 PM
Ed:  There is a chap out there somewhere in the US who machines "spacer rings" to fit the rear of the cyliner on "shaved" Webley revolvers, so they can be used with .455 rounds, instead of having to mess with .45ACP in moon clips or having to use .45AR cases. 

If I recall correctly, he gets customers to give him the exact measurementrs of their cylinder, "cylinder ratchet boss" and the cylinder gap, so he can "custom machine" each ring to optimum thickness and fit.  In view of the odd cylinder gap you seem to have, I wonder if such an expedient might be a practical solution for you to shoot this piece without problems.  I'd have to track down more information on the device ... my impression is that a center hole drops into place over the ratchet boss on the rear of the cylinder and, with the six holes aligned with the chambers you load as normal ... i.e. I don't think any permanent alteration to the revolver is necessary ... 

As I think it through, it must come away with the empty cases as you eject them, and then get replaced for the next loading.  Sort of a custom full moon clip to space your .455 cases in the right position ...
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 04, 2021, 05:14:11 PM
Found this: http://knoppix.net/store/-455-Webley-Conversion-Headspacing-Rings_331593072044.html (http://knoppix.net/store/-455-Webley-Conversion-Headspacing-Rings_331593072044.html)

And this:http://www.partsforantiqueguns.com/webleymarkvI.html (http://www.partsforantiqueguns.com/webleymarkvI.html)

And here's a guy who machined such a spacer sytem in two parts - a "cylinder spacer" and matching "extractor spacer" which he soldered in place  ... though I don't imagine you'd want to do something like that with this revolver! - https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/jqrjpd/milsurp_monday_a_deshaved_webley_mark_v/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/jqrjpd/milsurp_monday_a_deshaved_webley_mark_v/)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 04, 2021, 05:16:29 PM
Final thought ... what about a thin shim washer at the front of the cylinder to set it back a smidge?  (Might result in an excessive front cylnder gap, I suppose ...)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 04, 2021, 05:23:37 PM


It sounds like the cylinder length varies or wobbles?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: pony express on February 04, 2021, 06:23:29 PM
Perhaps it was originally made in .45 Colt, shipped to Canada as such, but sometime later someone put a 1917 .45 ACP cylinder in it?
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 04, 2021, 06:51:27 PM
How does the firing pin look? 

I wonder if someone did just what Pony Express said.  Repaired/restored the gun.  New cylinder, fix the D&T holes etc.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on February 04, 2021, 06:55:42 PM
Thanks for the links Rattlesnake.  Smoke, there’s no wobble, .45 colt/Schofield will not chamber, .455 and 45acp will. I believe what has happened is that the revolver had a replacement .455 cylinder installed or was originally shipped with a .455 cylinder.  My reference and the bbl caliber implies that it should be a .45colt. The finish is too much of a match on the bbl, cylinder, crane and frame and there is no evidence of a reblue. After it was retired from RCMP service the civilian owner couldn’t find .455 and didn’t want to shave the rear of the cylinder or recut the chambers to .45colt so he removed a little from the front end and modified the ejector to make 45acp/AR fit into the gun. The cylinder has no endshake when locked in the frame and all 6 chambers are 100% locked up tight when cycled. There IS play when the cylinder is open between the cylinder and cylinder stop on the frame. Today I trimmed a few .44-40 brass to .875 after expanding them to .450  and have successfully reloaded them several times. I have also tried just dropping .45acp handloads into the chambers without a moonclip and firing them. I shot 50 rds, about 5 out of every 6 fell out of the cylinder without any help. A mystery. Too bad it cant talk.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on February 04, 2021, 11:28:20 PM
Came across this and am thinking this is how the cylinder got moved forward without damaging the rear of the cylinder or altering the .455 chambers.  A 45acp 1917 ejector star was fit to the cylinder and ejector rod and trimmed a bit. The star on my revolver is the only part that is noticeably different.  There’s only .012 inch oal difference between the Mk1 Webley brass and a 45acp case. The difference is the .050 autorim thickness.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 05, 2021, 05:29:36 PM
Question for Col. Drydock ... 

Way back in this thread you confirmed that my .455-chambered Spanish clones of the S&W DA Frontier revolver would be acceptable substitutes for my NWMP persona. 

What I am now seeking to confirm is whether a modern reproduction break-action S&W revolver would also be acceptable - I have in mind a Uberti Schofield (chambered in .45 Colt) which I may have an opportunity to acquire. 

As far as specific 19th century use of S&W revolvers by the NWMP goes (beyond the .38 revolvers already mentioned and discussed) as a partial solution to the problem the Force had with their initial supply of .450 Adams revolvers, they are known to have acquired, late in 1874, thirty S&W "Old Model Russian" revolvers (chambered in .44 Russian) from the M.W. Robinson Company in New York, shipped to them via Fort Benton, M.T.   

What I have a possible opportunity to get is a 7"-barreled Uberti Schofield ... although "cosmetically" different from the Russian Model, I understand that "functionally" they are pretty much the same.  I would hope that this functional similarity, together with the primary GAF emphasis on the correct rifle for one's impression, would make it acceptable.

I must admit that cabin fever is definitely setting in,in view of my serious consideration of acquiring yet another pistol ... especially one as pricey as a Uberti top-break!  (It may only be feasible for me at this time if they will take a trade-in or two as part of the transaction ...)

I have always hankered after a S&W top-break clone, although have been put off until now by the cost and also by reported problems with some of them (although that was more with the less expensive ASM revolvers, I gather.)  At any rate, I am back to drooling over the possibility ....

Ironically, in his annual report for 1875, the NWMP Commissioner reprted that the Smith & Wessons were "very likely to get out of order and the severe cold is apt to snap the extractor spring."   

At least I can be reasonably confident that "severe cold" is a highly unlikely meteorological condition at a Muster ...   ;)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 05, 2021, 05:46:02 PM
RsJ...did you ever get that frock? 
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 05, 2021, 10:19:44 PM
Smoke,

If you mean the stable jacket ... yes, I did.

I haven't posted any pictures of it yet, because when it arrived, I decided I did not like the spacing and position of the front closure buttons and buttonholes, so I started to alter it and it still languishes in an unfinished state.

When I ordered it, I had taken a color photo from online (top left in the attached composite) and "photoshopped" it into a mock-up of what I wanted - removed pockets, lowered the height of the collar, reduced the amount of "cutaway" at lower front, and revised color - as seen at lower left.  What I received was very close to that mock-up image, but something was bothering me about that front button placement, so I went back and looked at my various images.  I realized then that I also should have revised the positioning of the front closure buttons in my mock-up image so that, while remaining evenly spaced, the lower button would be much closer to the lower edge. The four details cropped from period photos will show the type of spacing I should have represented in my mock-up.   I will admit that they quite faithfully produced a jacket very much like my mock-up image, although they had positioned the front button group even higher above the lower edge than in the mock-up.  The result was a look which was shouting "wrong" to me, and crying out for correction.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/551x585q90/922/iJEvyk.jpg)

As it turned out, I had either been too generous with my measurements, or they over-performed on my request to make the jacket fairly loose rather than a snug fit - or a combination of both factors - because the jacket as received was so "roomy" that I can actually take the two front edges back far enough to eliminate the buttonholes, and then re-space them the way I think they should be ...

It is still a work in progress, however ... I am hand-sewing it, and so far only have the buttonhole side cut back past the buttonholes and re-seamed.  Still need to do the other side, plus re-attach the standing collar (which I had to take off to accomplish all this) and then will have to position and make the buttonholes ...
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 05, 2021, 10:37:31 PM
Further to that reply, although I neglected to take a photo of the jacket as received before I started altering it, I would say the button spacing and positioning on it were something like this - quite close to the conceptual image i had sent them, but with the button grouping spaced even a little higher than the admittedly too-high positioning in my mock-up. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/399x550q90/924/4SLx9m.jpg)

The result of that compounded error just looked too much like a poorly proportioned tunic, rather than a "buttoned almost to the bottom" jacket like the originals ...
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: DeaconKC on February 05, 2021, 10:48:09 PM
RSJ, my dear Sir!
I have one of the Uberti Schofields in .45 Colt and run it as my favorite gun in my CAS shooting. It has run flawlessly, I clean it after every match and it delivers excellent accuracy. Mine is the 7" barreled version. I am on the lookout to replace the Vaquero hanging on my other hip as soon as I can, that's how much I like them.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 06, 2021, 09:07:32 AM
RsJ....You are far more brave or adventuresome than I am.  That is always been my biggest fear with ordering from an Indian/Chinese vendor.  The wrong size.  I have heard too many horror stories over the years from reenactors.  US sizes have not translated well.  Admittedly they were mostly Chinese vendors although some Italian reenactors had a very bad time with one of the large Indian vendors.

Did you order in inches or that blasphemous metric system?

Apart from sizing, how do you find the quality of the stable jacket?

Have you ordered other things from this vendor?

I have debated ordering a pair of 1902 SD trousers from Replicators via their Amazon store.  $50 cheaper than WPG and Amazon offers some protection.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 06, 2021, 05:37:34 PM
RSJ, my dear Sir!
I have one of the Uberti Schofields in .45 Colt and run it as my favorite gun in my CAS shooting.

Deacon ...

Thank you for those encouraging words! 

I read at least one "tale of woe" from someone with a Uberti Schofield, who seems to have gotten a lemon ... a "Monday morning" piece, or something of that sort.   Another chap had a recurring problem, but the second time they authorized him to send it back they replaced it completely, which was encouraging ...

Most of the comments I have seen, however, have been quite positive.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on February 06, 2021, 06:17:03 PM
Smoke,

I have dealt with Replicaters (their rather "individualized" spelling) for quite a few years, and virtually all of my uniforms were made by them.  I don't know about their Amazon store (... didn't even realize they have one, in fact ...) but dealing with them directly (via their website and e-mail) as I have always done, you can communicate back and forth as much as necessary to clarify any issues or concerns before ordering, and you then send them your necessary measurements noted on a size chart (... looks to me to be USN for Dress Whites ...) and they make it to those measurements.  So far all of my orders have fit fine, according to the measurements I sent.  They do stress details like measuring your waist at the bellybutton (for both tunics and pants) so you ignore such particulars at your peril.

That happened to one of the members of my Artillery Detachment, when we ordered new tunics a couple of years ago.  I gave everybody a copy of the size chart, and stressed that these should be actual measurements, taken at the body location/as instructed on the size chart.  One know-it-all (a retired teacher, which I am sure is a factor) gave his waist measurement as the size of blue jeans he wears!  Keep in mind he wrote this on a tunic size chart! You guessed it .... being someone with a prominent beer belly who cinches his jeans up below it (... and thus  gleefully able to say "I still wear size xx waist!" ...) when the tunics arrived they all fit nicely except his, which did not come even close to buttoning over his paunch. I immediatley said: "You gave me the pants waist size you wear, didn't you!" and he admitted he had done that, but it still took a bit of explaining to get him to understand why that was not a good idea for a tunic!  Thankfully, there was sufficient seam allowance that it could be let out to fit him.

Quality of the stable jacket is quite good, as has been everything I have gotten from them. 

You can provide measurements in inches or metric, whichever you prefer.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on February 07, 2021, 10:18:51 AM
RsJ...thanks for the info and the tips on how not to screw it up.

His website looks to be helpful.  I actually had not been to it and was relying on what he listed for sale elsewhere.  Looks like I will be ordering some pants tomorrow.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on May 25, 2021, 11:12:23 PM
Late update ...

I continue with my preparations for attending the national Muster ... even though the border is still closed to "non-essential" travel ...  (I was working up an argument that my attendance at Muster is "essential" ... but unfortunately, the details set out on the U.S. Customs & Border Protection website make that a very hard sell ...)

The border restrictions have been extended to June 21 ... so I simply have to be "ready to go" while hoping that the restrictions will finally be eased then ...

I have finally finished re-working my cotton duck stable jacket which, as posted earlier in this thread, the NWMP frequently wore as a cool and comfortable patrol jacket ... and which I intend to wear as part of my field uniform.  As I posted some time ago, when the jacket arrived from India, my request that I didn't want it to fit quite as snugly as is evident in many of the period photos had translated into something which was way too loose ... "baggy" really, even on my sizeable and rotund frame.  Also, the button spacing was rather disappointing ... the five buttons were spaced too close together and grouped too high ... as opposed to the correct even spacing almost to the bottom edge of the jacket, as seen in the period photos ...

I decided to grit my teeth and do some extensive alterations to the jacket. by cutting away the existing improperly-spaced buttonholes at the front closure ... also cutting the opposite side of the front closure back by new buttonholes  with more appropriate spacing.  Of course, that meant quite extensive needlework (all by hand) to form the new hemmed edges of the front closure area, plus removal of the collar, shortening it and then reattaching it ... and finally sewing the five new buttonholes (also entirely by hand) and attaching the buttons.

Well ... all that is finally done! 

I attach a composite picture showing (on the left) the original spacing of the buttonholes ... with a dotted line roughly showing how much I cut back the front closure edges to get rid of the existing buttonholes ... after which I of course had to turn the edges back in on both sides and hem them before the new buttonholes could be made and the buttons attached.  At center are a couple of period images showing NWMP personnel wearing the stable/patrol jacket ... which give a fairly good idea of the correct button spacing.  On the right is the finished jacket following my alterations ...

I am thinking that the bottom corners of the front closure need to be rounded more, and I will do that if and when I get time ... as well as possibly dying the jacket to a somewhat darker shade, since most of the period photos suggest a fairly dark duck (although the existing tone is somewhat "washed out" in these photos ... I feel it should be more like the tone in the "mock up image" I posted above on February 5 ...)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
Post by: smoke on May 26, 2021, 06:52:00 AM
That is some good work.  It is coming along nicely!

I really hope the un-#$%K the border situation ASAP.  My BIL went up to Edmonton to help his daughter and family move back here.  They tested him (negative) and told him to isolate for 3 days and then they would retest him.  Nobody followed/called etc. so he just went on his way to get them.

Maybe try to come in through Mexico...pretty easy these days. :-[
Title: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 … no, 2021 … no, 2022 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 13, 2021, 11:28:24 PM
Looking back at this rather lengthy thread I am guilty of having created, I see that several months have passed since I posted one of my overly-wordy and boring updates on this developing impression.

Because the Covid-induced border closure, which lasted over a year and a half, has prevented my attendance at the past two National Musters, this impression … which I originally needed to complete in the approximately four months remaining before the 2020 Muster (following the rather unexpected acquisition of a reproduction NWMP red wool dress tunic which fits me) I have had ample ongoing opportunity to add items, and to tweak those already acquired or made … and that process continues.

At the time of my last update (...prior to my hoped-for attendance at the 2021 Muster … which, alas, was not to be …) I chronicled my fairly extensive re-working of the rather unsatisfactory cotton duck fatigue/stable jacket made for me in India.  I mentioned that I thought I would alter it further if I got the time.  Well, I certainly got the time, and eventually did the further adjustments, rounding off the corners of the front closure to make the jacket much closer to the appearance evident in various period photographs, as well as dyeing it to a darker and more satisfactory shade.  Rank insignia have now been applied, also …

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/964x447q90/924/mFsd0W.jpg)

Although I previously indicated that it was unlikely I would bother getting the unique cotton duck cap which formed part of this NWMP fatigue uniform ... and was frequently worn with the fatigue jacket on patrol.  For that reason, it has variously been described as a patrol cap, or "prairie cap".  However, I have changed my mind! 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/840x390q90/923/l9AbHb.jpg)

I have worked a trade with a young Montana acquaintance who graduated a year or so ago with a degree in historical interpretation studies (or something like that) with which he hopes to make a career in the US National Park Service or a similar line. He is a talented amateur tailor and hatter, who will construct me a couple of these caps.  He is currently in the process of producing a prototype.

I may also have mentioned that I once had on order a reproduction of the rather utilitarian British Pattern 1853 Cavalry Sabre … which was the pattern first issued to NWMP Sergeants ...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x575q90/922/E6V9eU.jpg)

On that first attempt to acquire a reproduction of this sword, it was on backorder for such a long time that I finally had second thoughts and cancelled the order. After all, the sabre was really only a dress wear item for NWMP Sergeants … and would similarly be limited to wear with my dress uniform … i.e. for a brief period at the banquet before I would have to remiove it to comfortably sit and eat …  However, recently I was rather foolishly browsing that same dealer's website (… the sort of "mistake" we all presumably make from time to time …) and saw that this sabre apparently was back in stock! 

You guessed it: I confirmed that it was available, and one is now making its way to me via UPS … ::)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/840x485q90/922/GaCjQ8.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 … no, 2021 … no, 2022 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on November 14, 2021, 09:46:17 AM
RSJ, your thread has indeed spanned years so it must be a good one. Just reread it and thought that I’d mention a development in my NS. A fellow cas club member graciously gave me 25 pieces of C45S [Cowboy special] brass to play with. My initial plan was to use them in my short Trapper 1894 but I just resized 6 and tried them in my RNWMP NS Colt and they fit perfectly. I’ll reload them today and try them but they should work just fine. Need 50 more. Photos soon.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 … no, 2021 … no, 2022 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 14, 2021, 11:30:37 AM
Ed,

I have never tried the Cowboy Special case, even though all my cas guns are .45 Colt.  Might well have given it a try back at the very outset, when my rifle was a Trapper necessitating the dreaded “load one on the clock” …. But it didn’t exist yet back then!

Mind you, it is my understanding you can use shorter cartridges with the more “modern” lever-action designs which incorporate a “stop” at the action end of the magazine tube to control cartridge feed.  My present three cas rifles (repro ‘66, repro and original ‘73) lack that feature, so overall cartridge length is critical: if they are too short, the round on the lifter lets the next round protrude past the mouth of the magazine tube, stopping the lifter from rising … if too long, the bullet of the round on the lifter can protrude into the magazine tube and also prevent the lifter from rising.  In fact, I have learned that my .45 Colt cartridges, in addition to being within a narrow OAL range, must also have a firm factory crimp so bullets won’t get shifted back in their cases under magazine spring pressure, recoil jostling and such.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 … no, 2021 … no, 2022 National Muster
Post by: Baltimore Ed on November 14, 2021, 12:54:09 PM
Guess I was lucky in buying it as my Stoeger 1873 that I used in my 1873 Centennial / Spanish contract carbine can run the shorter .45 Schofield [w/255 gr bullets] fine as the lifter will cam the next loaded round back into the magazine tube as it rises.
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 … no, 2021 … no, 2022 National Muster
Post by: smoke on November 16, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
RattlesnakeJack....thanks for the update!  Looking forward to the pics of you in the complete kit.

I need to go back and re-read this thread especially the part where you dyed the jacket.

Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 … no, 2021 … no, 2022 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on November 17, 2021, 01:54:21 PM
Smoke,

The first images I have posted about dyeing the jacket to a more suitable tone are the most recent ones.  At the time of my last "update" back in May I mentioned that I would be doing these further alterations and possibly dyeing the jacket if I got time before leaving for the Muster … but of course the border didn't open then, so I've had lots of time to finally get this done ...
Title: Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 … no, 2021 … no, 2022 National Muster
Post by: RattlesnakeJack on April 02, 2022, 12:52:05 AM
Well, time to resurrect this thread with an update …

It is definitely looking like my second amendment to the original title (when I added "… no, 2022") is actually going to come to fruition!  Two fellow Canucks from right here in Medicine Hat, and I, are registered and finalizing our travel plans …

The sole benefit of the hiatus of more than two years since I began this thread has at least afforded me plenty of time to tweak and fine-tune my uniforms and kit …  :-\

Recently, I finally got access to a copy of the premier reference "Uniforms of the Canadian Mounted Police" by Dr. James J. Boulton, which was published over 30 years ago, and is accordingly long out of print and very expensive to acquire if you can locate a copy for sale.  At almost 550 pages, it is the veritable "bible" on the subject, with the chapters covering the GAF time frame (1870s, 1880s, 1890s, and the first decade of the 1900s) occupying 202 pages of that number. (I know, because I have expended a great deal of time and effort to scan every single page covering those four decades, and converted them into PDF files for my ongoing reference!)

As a result of having access to this detailed further information, my fine-tuning continues!  One thing I was unaware of … because it was not specifically mentioned in any of my other references, and I had not actually noticed that detail in any colour uniform depictions I had previously seen … is that NWMP NCO rank insignia (chevrons, crowns, etc) were NOT worked on a red background as I had assumed … in fact, the background was dark blue  … and thus would contrast sharply with the red of the tunic material, rather than blending in.

As an example, here is an image I cropped from a colour photo of the Sergeant's insignia on a genuine NWMP tunic (very poor resolution and detail unfortunately when blown up this much) compared to the appearance of the red background insignia (posted a while back) which I had already sewn on my tunic (and also on my cotton duck fatigue jacket) …
 
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/638x275q90/922/tMvSnA.jpg)

I was aware a dark blue background was the case with later RNWMP and RCMP rank insignia, but had always been of the mistaken impression that this blue background was only introduced in 1904 when the Force was granted the "Royal" designation.  That is certainly when the dark blue "facing colour" (i.e. contrasting shoulder straps, collars (or collar gorgets) and sometimes contrasting cuffs, depending on the type of garment), reserved for "Royal" regiments in the British Army, first appeared on Mounted Police uniforms. 

Anyway, this late revelation (coupled with my well-known obsession for correct detail) has introduced a new task for me … I have removed the Sergeant's stripes and crown, with their red backgrounds, from both the dress tunic and fatigue jacket to which I had painstakingly sewn them … and have now applied them to a correct blue background. Now I will trim them out and sew them back onto the two garments …

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/550x350q90/923/jvL4t4.jpg)