44 Special vs 45 Colt

[Coffinmaker]

Just as funzies, and something I never paid attention to in my sordid past, is 44 Colt.  A while back, a CAS player on another forum, mentioned he was shooting 44 Colt in his 1866, chambered for 44 Special.  I thought, "I wonder??"  I Haden't considered 44 Colt for either of my Toggle Link rifles in 44 Special but I was shooting 44 Russian in my Open Tops and had a short cartridge carrier for my '66.  So I pulled the short cartridge carrier out of the '66 and reinstalled a stock carrier and lo and behold, the '66 actually ate the 44 Colt like candy.  WOWZERS!!  That would give me same same cartridge choice for Bothe the Open Top and the '66, pretty much duplicating the 44 Henry Flat in both guns.  I may have to anneal 44 Colt for the rifle, but intend to try the 44 Colt in the '66 "as is" just for fun without annealing.  Annealing is so skull numbing boring.  See what happens.  I do expect there will be Blow-By, but how much??  Oh, and I found the 44 Colt is the same length cartridge as .38 special so should run just as fast as 38s.  Stay Tuna!!

[Griff]

I'd considered the 44-40. The reloading data is limited, but one could get close enough with the 44 Spl data. The 44-40 seems the best choice for BP, but I don't see myself running BP often. I want to keep my loads subsonic for noise reduction.

If Uberti chambers tend to be oversize, I'll stick with the 45. Thanks for the feedback, gents.

The reason there's a paucity of reloading info for the .44-40 is the shortage of projectiles appropriate for the cartridge.  In the jacketed realm few bullets for the velocity of the .44-40 are produced.  The older guns ran to a .427-.428 groove diameter, while the .44Spl/Mag run to .429-.430.  Modern producers of .44-40 guns tend to follow the larger groove diameter, and in revolvers, follow the SAAMI specs.  This results in a chamber mouth smaller than groove diameter and bullets that may fly with less than adequate spin.

Folks claim that Uberti chambers run oversize... often just repeating what they've been told or read somewhere.  Utterly false.  While not a definitive sample, I have 3 Uberti rifles in 45 Colt from 1986 to 2014 and none are oversize.  They do run to max SAAMI specs.  Are there some oversize examples out there?  Sure, but don't feel like that's the norm.  The reason the -dash chamberings are often recommended for BP shooters is that the brass neck/mouth area is often thinner and with the slight bottleneck in case design allows the neck to expand more in the chamber, sealing of the action from the majority of fouling.   

[Tuolumne Lawman]

My Trail Boss loads (7 grains) for the .44-40 do about 1125-1150 fps with a 200 grain bullet from my 24" HRA 1860.  When I had a .45 Henry, I did a 45 Schofield case with 27 grains of FFFG under a 200 grain slug did about the same.

[Coffinmaker]

   Well, Hi there Griff     I don't know why it took me over a month to get back to this particular thread.  Must have been distracted.  Very distracted (concentration of a Gnat).

Anyway, I have always disparaged Uberti for their chambers for the straight wall cartridges.  I try not to describe them as "oversize" and instead try to use the term "Generous."  Butt, and however, the Uberti chamber is only a contributing factor to the Blow-By Problem.  The primary problem is the actual cases themselves.  They simply DO NOT obturate (expand) sufficiently to seal the chamber, even if cut to the "snug" end of the specifications.  The problem extends throughout the straight wall pistol cartridges we use in our rifles.  Case life is better certainly, but fouled chambers are no fun when trying to go fast.  Or even just trying to go.  Ergo, I have become a "Poster Kid" for annealed cases in CAS rifles.  Handguns seem to have nice snug chambers but still exhibit an amount of blow-by.

I have found a real problem with 44 Colt in my Uberti Toggle Link Rifles.  I have a solution but don't know if I want to go to the trouble.  My Original cartridge selection(s) are working quite well so I don't plan to make great effort to run 44 Colt in the Rifles.

[Bryan Austin]

Ah yes, trying to make pistol cartridges work in rifles.

Black Powder Pistol Cartridges did not need thin case mouths in order to seal the chamber , thus black powder rifle cartridges (44 WCF and 38 WCF), worked as designed in rifles....as rifle cartridges.

Modern 44-40 "stuff" gets messed up due to the lack of proper chamber and bore cuts, while modern pistol cartridges get messed up when used in rifles due to messed up chamber cuts.

Ironic?

Rifle Cartridges - 44-40/38-40...were best used in rifles with rifle powders, or black powder
Pistol Cartridges - 44 Special/38 Special/45 Colt, were best used in pistols with pistol powders, or black powder

It is all about why and how they were designed....and how they are used today.

[Coffinmaker]

  Absolutely 

The 45 Colt was never chambered in rifles "back in the day" because the original 45 Colt was intended for handguns and had an absolutely minuscule rim that rifle extractors just couldn't grab on to.  And, the cartridge was never intended for use in rifles. 

Today, especially in CAS, we ask pistol cartridges to run in guns they were never intended for.  Not that it won't work, it does (for the most part).  Early handgun 44s were mostly 44 Henry Flat, loaded in copper cases which expanded nicely.  Modern pistol cartridges have almost universally thicker walls and just don't expand well.  Heavy loads and big heavy bullets only mitigate the Blow-By problem.  Those loads don't eliminate it.  Annealing does.  Although, I have also learned if we carefully run 44-40 cases thru 45 Colt loading dies and actually load 45 bullets, those cases will fire form nicely and expand to give a really nicely sealed chamber that will run as "clean" as the dash calibers, which were intended for rifles.  Lots of dash caliber shooters consider blowing out 44-40 to be sacrilege but it does work a treat (they do look wonky first firing).

[DeaconKC]

I've been able to run with 45 Colt thanks to Coffinmaker's advice to load the rounds to a healthy load. I do not anneal and by running close to factory levels I get through a match easily. Takes a bit of extra cleaning, but I am now used to it in either my 66 or 73.

[Coffinmaker]

  NO NO NO 

I did not and do not advocate running yer 45 Colt with "heavy" loads.  Nope.  Never ever said that.  What I have said, is, "A Heavey Load with Heavy Bullets" will "MITIGATE" blow-by somewhat.  Won't eliminate it.  I prefer the "Eliminate" side of the coin, which is Annealing.  Or, being somewhat sacrilegious, If need arises I just fire form some 44-40 to 45 Colt as those cases seal up just fine.  We must remember that I, as a card carrying member of "Recoil Wimps Anonymous" a heavy load for me is 160Gr bullet for rifle and a 130Gr bullet for pistol.  With those light loads, the only really effective method to eliminate Blow-By is annealing.  The process is skull numb boring but the result is worth it (I think anyway). 

[DeaconKC]

I should have been more clear. As Coffinmaker said, is how I load my guns. Thanks again my friend!

[Griff]

Not me... I embrace the fouling, I "clearance" the carrier by reducing it's width, by 10-15 thousandths per side  and fire away.  I easily run a 6 stage match, and sometimes a full 3 day 12 stage match without a care.  On rare occasion I might need to go to my backup rifle to run stage 12, but... rare.  Doesn't work quite as well with the C45S mod in place.  Still working on that.