Help identifying a remington revolver

[Mad Miles]

Thanks for that.
There's a place where one can get history for a gun using the serial number?

With the hammer cocked, the cylinder wont rotate backwards no matter what direction it is pointing, or what position I am holding the gun in.  But if I press the trigger back and move the hammer forward the cylinder will rotate backwards.

The nickle gun is an Iver Johnson safety hammerless 32 caliber five shot.  Looks to be about an 1898 DOM.  But it's been deactivated, has the barrel welded shut, the five chambers in the cylinder welded, the break latch at the top is welded as is the hinge.  Don't know why but I suspect one of the, in my opinion, ridiculous gun laws we have in Canada.  Not sure but I think barrels less that 4-1/2 inch are illegal.

I'm looking around for some breakdown and assembly instructions for the two revolvers, don't want to have a part fly across the garage to be lost forever while taking one apart out of sequence, then I will dismantle and inspect both to ascertain what parts I may need.

The other gun is a EIG pinfire, can't get any info on that one, I manage to find a couple that were sold at auction but no model numbers, just looked the same i the pic.  As far as I know pinfire is obsolete adn I can find no info as to what the DOM of the thing is, but I've only spent a few hours looking so far.

[Professor Marvel]

Greetigs My Good Mad Miles

you have hit a jackpot there alright.
i am sure others will comment on your highly desirable Red9 Mauser C96.

The colt revolver #173549 puts it at
Year of Manufacture 1897, Model SINGLE ACTION ARMY
as others have related, getting it "lettered" by Colt would be a great idea, it usually costs $100 to $200 USD

you can start here
https://coltarchives.com/
https://coltarchives.com/archive-letter-info
https://coltarchives.com/orders-%26-pricing

however, it is possible that Colt might not have any records on your pistol, please see this auction site as an example

https://www.ancestryguns.com/shop/early-1873-mfr-antique-colt-45-single-action-army-revolver-ivory-nickel-saa-rare-1st-year-4-digit-serial-number-saa-in-45-colt/



The Remington revolver looks like the real deal, the 1863 New Model Army (often called the Mod 1858), the serial number 33250 puts it in the batch (serials 23000 to 6800 )
shipped in 1863.

your  "1858" conversion is a classic "thin plate" conversion, in which a thin steel plate is dovetailed or otherwise attched at the breech section of the frame,
and the cylinder is machined down at the rear to accept a thick cylinderical extension usually attached by brazing or silver solder, since
modern welding techniques were not yet developed, at which point both the original cylinder and extesion were drilled, reamed, and chambered for the
desired cartridge. The first factory conversions were usually .46 Remington, but non-factory conversions could be anything in the .44 heeled cartridges
on up. A chamber casting would tell you.

Can you possibley post a photo of the barrel engraving, the ser number and the numbers on the grip frame under the wooden grips?

If you get a chance to go visit the barn again, we would all LOVE to see photos of the stuff there!

I will see what I can dig up on your pinfire later

yhs
prof marvel

[Mad Miles]

I found out about the wolff springs and now know what +P ammo is, thank you Deacon.

Abilene, the trigger pivot screw is broken, I found a site that has one and will get that coming on Monday.  Still looking for the Front trigger guard screw.  The colt is in pretty nice shape and fairly clean compared to the Remington, but I'll still dismantle both and make sure everything inside is what it's supposed to be.

Thanks for the links Professor. I took a couple pics of the numbers again.  Both under the barrel and under the grips there is a large 53, the 53 is about 4 times the size of the serial number. 

Perhaps the most interesting thing I found was a piece of old paper under the grips.  Looked to be linen paper.  The owner of the gun wrote about getting the converted cap and ball "six shooter" from his Dad for a birthday present.  that side is not dated.  On the other side he describes being on harvest leave , they did let farmers have leave during harvest time if the could to help bring in the crops during the war.  Doesn't say what country but he was from Alberta Canada. Under that he discribes the German army near Stalingrad, Russians holding how he expects a new front before freeze up and how he expects victory at the end of the war.  Another piece of history. 

[Advertising]

[Mad Miles]

I was afraid of flattening out the paper to get a pic but manage to without tearing it.
The pic of the paper in the hand frame is like it was when I took the grips off, I should have taken the pic yesterday when I first saw it but thought it might have been info as to the caliber and cartridge he was using.

Thanks for all the guidance, it's been interesting.  But I'm not getting any work done, just plopped in front of the computer screen, or scrubbing guns in the Varsol tank.  I have a camshaft to degree, a deck to replace, a....

[Major 2]

What a treasure trove time capsule WOW !
The paper should stabilized and framed, maybe with the gun in a two-sided glass shadow box.

Very Very Cool

[DeaconKC]

Glad I was able to help a bit. And Thank You for posting the pics of that note, what an awesome find!

PS: Will you take a used kidney for that Broomhandle?

[Trailrider]

I was afraid of flattening out the paper to get a pic but manage to without tearing it.
The pic of the paper in the hand frame is like it was when I took the grips off, I should have taken the pic yesterday when I first saw it but thought it might have been info as to the caliber and cartridge he was using.

Thanks for all the guidance, it's been interesting.  But I'm not getting any work done, just plopped in front of the computer screen, or scrubbing guns in the Varsol tank.  I have a camshaft to degree, a deck to replace, a....

Aw, you don't want to mess with all that old iron. Just send it all to me. I'd even pay the postage. 

Seriously, what a lucky find! The only thing about researching things like that is that it can become addictive! I should know. I tracked the history of a Sharps carbine and the youngster who worked for the Army as a teamster, 1875-76... off and on for over forty years, and am still tracking some of his relatives! 

Have fun. Stay well and safe!

[Cap'n Redneck]

Regarding the pinfire:  does it have the letters "ELG" stamped inside an oval?
If so, then it was proofed in Liege, Belgium in 1892 or earlier.
From 1893 the Liege Proofhouse added a small crown on top of the oval.

[Mad Miles]

Yup, Cap.n, it does,  on the cylinder an E then below an L and G.  I thought the L was an I but it is in kinda rough condition.   Right below the oval is an M

[Cap'n Redneck]

The "M" would be a sub-inspectors mark. 
Judging from the photo I'd guess it's a 7mm or 9mm calibre?
These were inexpensive "Saturday night specials".

[Mad Miles]

Great thanks for the info.

I think I've got the Remington identified.  I talked to one of the Cascity members today for about 45 minutes,  He seemed quite sure it's a transition gun with a type one armourer 's conversion in 44 caliber.  Great guy to talk to and new quite a bit about these guns.  Now I just have to get ammo and see if it fits and shoots.

[River City John]

(Just a note of caution, do not use modern ammunition loaded with smokeless powder.)

[Professor Marvel]

Great thanks for the info.

I think I've got the Remington identified.  I talked to one of the Cascity members today for about 45 minutes,  He seemed quite sure it's a transition gun with a type one armourer 's conversion in 44 caliber.  Great guy to talk to and new quite a bit about these guns.  Now I just have to get ammo and see if it fits and shoots.

.44 Remington Conversion ammunition is not usually found in the stores.
Best to get it looked at by a qualified "old timey guns" expert and achamber casting.
The bore will take a .451 to .454 lead bullet (best to slug it to be certain)
And it will probably be a .44 Remington healed cartidge which should not be confused with the
.44 Remington CF which was made for the Remington Model 1875...

I will have to do some research to see what the appropriate cartridge will be....

[Mad Miles]

I spun the barrel off the pinfire.
The cylinder chambers are approx. .3265" at the rear, .3065" and at the the front.
The throat of the barrel is approx .294.  I Don't have a ball small enough to slug it.

I just took the measurements with a caliper so I don't expect them to be exact.

[Mad Miles]

I took the barrel off the Remington to slug it. Couldn't think of a way to tap the lead down the barrel without harming the gun otherwise.  With the barrel off I could put it into a soft jaw vise with a wooden support under the barrel end.  I pushed one slug straight through and another just and inch or so into the muzzle end then back out.  The rifling is 5 right which made it difficult to measure.  I couldn't just measure straight across the lands and the grooves like I could if it was a even number barrel.  I could measure land to groove.  I got a few tips and advice from some gunsmith types over in the Shooters' Forum, that and a few other measureing tools I have lead me to decide I have a .435" bore with .449" grooves.

So that solves one of my problems, at least now i know what the bore size is.

So, now to bullets.  I have found a guy who makes heeled bullets with a .427" heel and a .449" sealing ring, a larger diameter such as .451" may be better, I don't know but this is the only guy I could find in the country who has a stepped bullet mould (mold?)  He casts bullets for his own use, I don't know if I can talk him into making and selling some to me.  The closest brass I can find that will (maybe) fit into the chambers and have a small enough rim to clear the ratchet post is the 44 colt.  It has a .451 neck and .427" mouth so will work.  I slugged the cylinders at .451" so I may have to hone them a touch.  Will also have to get, devise, make, buy some type of crimper along with a die set.  But getting bullets will be the next on my list.

[Drydock]

You need to get over to the www.coltforum.com and let some of the experts have a look at that SAA.  I also would be leery of doing anything to that Remington.   That not a common item at all, you do not want to damage or alter it.   

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Bad Miles,

It does indeed sound like it was converted to .44 Colt Original.

Here's what I have listed for dimensions.

Rim - .483"
Base - .456"
Neck - .455
Bullet - .451" with .429" Heel
Case Length - 1.100"
Cartridge OAL - 1.5"

The cartridges I load for my Pietta/Howell Conversion end up with an OAL of 1.555",
which leave plenty of clearance in the Howell cylinder.
It's a fun cartridge, but don't hot rod that old iron, keep your loads light.
I shoot a LEE 450-200-1R Black Powder Bullet with a Heel swagged on the base.

AntiqueSledMan.

[38OVI]

I tried to see if I could find Loren G. Cornell on Fold3.com, but there are only 2% of the Canadian Military records available.  Tried ancestry.com which led to www.findagrave.com  Loren G. Cornell, born in Alberta 21 August 1923, died 31 January 2015.  Memorial # 194059454 age 91
Just a thought it could bee him.

[Mad Miles]

Thank you.
The Colt is a pretty solid gun.  The cylinder stop bolt was attached to the trigger guard with a piece of string.  It's broken.  Also has a broken trigger screw.  I have a screw and bolt coming in the mail.  The front trigger guard screw was missing but I have found one and installed it.

The Remington is in a bit rougher shape but I'm getting it together piece by piece.  I found a hand for it and have the thing cycling fine.

The person in Ontario is going to sell me some of his heeled bullets and I have brass so I'm set to load up some mild rounds to test fire.  He sent me a dummy round with the hand.  Fit in the cylinders nicely.  I put a primmer in the case and shot the round into the barrel.  It stopped about half way down and I tapped it out the muzzle.  Seems to have the lands and grooves nicely formed and looks like it's going to seal the barrel OK.

That's him, I now have the registration papers for the firearms and he last registered them in 2007.  I also have his firearms licence born 1923 issued in Alberta. 

Thanks again