Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1876 => Topic started by: john boy on December 07, 2007, 12:58:17 PM
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Let's Start a List:
Was your Chaparral or Uberti '76 Winchester slick as a whistle - Out of the Box ... or was there problems with it?
If you had (have) problems with your rifle, what did you do to correct it or what do you intend to do to resolve it?
In the poll, you can vote up to 9 of the options - if you experienced all 9 listed. If you encountered a problem that is not listed, please vote for Option 9 and explain what it was in the thread
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OK... I might have done you dirt ....
I voted slick as a whistle... But it was a Henry, in fact I have two , one Steel Frame & one Brass Frame both were flawless in operation out of the boxes.. though the Brass Frame was LNIB to me ,as it was owned & traded for a Uberti 76 by the pervious owner.
The Steel frame was Brand new in the box... just this past June 07...
Update: July 22, 2008
I've had the Steel frame a year now..and it is still problem free..
I shot it more than the brass frame beause the Butt plate is somewhat more confortable than the sharper Brass Mil. Frame's Cresent butt.
However, both are on target with Black Dawg factory rounds.
I'd also like to point out these are my 2nd and 3rd Uberti Henry's , I had a Allen Arms Uberti with a [AH] 1981 date
I never should have sold... It is still in the same friends hands and he shoots again me and a some faster too ! >:( (only sometimes though ) :P
Update Jan. 19, 2015
I was reading a new post up on page 6 and recalled this post from 7 years ago ...
Time has indeed marched on and several changes have happened ...
1. The above Allen Arms Uberti I sold ...I bought back, the old friend retired from shooting and the 44/40 Henry is back in my safe.
2. I received an Henry Repeating Arms H011 Henry in 44/40 in Nov. 2013 for the purpose of Gun Test Article.
The gun remains in my Battery
So that's 4 Henry's # 1 is back were it started and ....All have performed flawlessly , with minor exception of the follower spring
one # 1 which was kinked , back when I owned it the first time around.... That was more hang up on Horse back and branch
which swiveled the Muzzle open ...not really a gun flaw... only part ever replaced.
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The rear sight on mine was a piece of crap...ladder wouldn't lay flat and it took an effort to slide the sight up and down.
They sent me another one...about on par with the first one.
Ended up putting an old Marbles sight on it that I had here at the house.
May leave it on there...just a hunting rifle and I'll never shoot it much past 100 yards anyway.
Besides...it's kinda grown on me now.
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I have the Uberti 1876 in 45-75 from Taylor's. Delivered new. Here goes: two cut dents on the wrist, round ding the size of a button on the left side of the buttstock, The metal to wood fit is horrible, wood is wavy, wood on left side of wrist at the tang there's a jagged gap about 1/8" wide. Could've sent it back, they were willing to look at it and pay the shipping, I just didn't think I'd get one to my satisfaction, seen many Uberti rifles and lately they're poorly finished. However being a gunsmith I've decided to make a nice little project out of it, recolor case reciever, and restock, Oh, and also there's a ding on the corner of the barrel flats, again I'll probably draw file the barrel over again since the flats are too rounded over for my liking.
I've read somewhere that the 76 was probably the best finished rifles of all the Winchesters, and that's just what this one is going to be. Too bad it wasn't like that from the factory.
Just to be fair, the action seems to be just fine, haven't shot it yet so I'll reserve judgement on it's function.
Carver
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My Cimarron 1876 is in 45-60. Fit and finish is top drawer, and it was slick right out of the box. :)
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I don't know how to vote in the pol, I see no way to do so. I don't particularly like the rear sight of my Chaparral. Just don't really like a deep V type sight and I'm not real impressed by the quality of it but it works fair. I am getting to where I can shoot this sight but it will eventually be replaced. That's it for problems, it functions fine, with loads it likes it is spooky accurate, and if the sights were better I'm sure it would be better yet.
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I don't know how to vote in the pol, I see no way to do so. I don't particularly like the rear sight of my Chaparral. Just don't really like a deep V type sight and I'm not real impressed by the quality of it but it works fair. I am getting to where I can shoot this sight but it will eventually be replaced. That's it for problems, it functions fine, with loads it likes it is spooky accurate, and if the sights were better I'm sure it would be better yet.
I have a buddy with a Chap 76 in 45-60 that is "spooky accurate" as well. They are putting good barrels on those rifles! I think John Boy has one that is also a real shooter. ;)
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Howdy Pards
I have a Cimarron Uberti 1876 4560 for 3 or 4 months now, shot 250 rounds through it.
It is beautiful fit & finish and deadly accurate.
Dusty Ed ;)
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The only problem I've had so far was with my NWMP SRC is the loading gate finish but I very quickly got a new loading gate. It is put away while I'm working on wearing this one out. ;) So, I voted Other Problem(s). I haven't found any other yet. The headspace issue... might be an issue of widely varying brass specs... ;D
BTW FWIW, I came to this topic and can't vote either. Only shows poll results. Did you set the time for the poll correctly?
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My Uberti 1876 fom Taylors would not consistently chamber rounds smoothly. I had to really slam the lever to get the round to chamber. I stopped doing that quickly as I was afraid I might have a premature detonation. :-X I called Taylors myself, told them my problem and who my FFL was. They said send it back. I took it to my FFL and he sent it back. I had the rifle back within a week (no lie). Now it loads, chambers and ejects like a dream I was told by Tom the gunsmith at Taylors that the "tab under the bolt was squared off when it should have had more of an angle to it". He blamed this on Uberti and called them himself to explain the problem. I am suspecting the problem has now been fixed at the Uberti factory. I am very happy with the gun now. The wood to metal fit is great and the wood on the stock looks good. Taylors will stand behind what they sell so do not hesitate to send guns back if they arent working as they should out of the box.
Regards. Deadeye.
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I have the Uberti 1876 in 45-75 from Taylor's. Delivered new. Here goes: two cut dents on the wrist, round ding the size of a button on the left side of the buttstock, The metal to wood fit is horrible, wood is wavy, wood on left side of wrist at the tang there's a jagged gap about 1/8" wide. Could've sent it back, they were willing to look at it and pay the shipping, I just didn't think I'd get one to my satisfaction, seen many Uberti rifles and lately they're poorly finished. However being a gunsmith I've decided to make a nice little project out of it, recolor case reciever, and restock, Oh, and also there's a ding on the corner of the barrel flats, again I'll probably draw file the barrel over again since the flats are too rounded over for my liking.
I've read somewhere that the 76 was probably the best finished rifles of all the Winchesters, and that's just what this one is going to be. Too bad it wasn't like that from the factory.
Just to be fair, the action seems to be just fine, haven't shot it yet so I'll reserve judgement on it's function.
Carver
Be glad you didn't buy a Crapparal :'(
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I ordered 5 Chapparals at the same time in 45-75 (small group of us HAD to have them).
3 of the 5 had magazine tubes fly off in the 1st 10 rounds shot.
One would not even lever open. It had a hammer spur bent so bad that it hit the receiver tang.
One had a split forend.
One cracked the stock at the tang in less than a week.
The sights were terrible (front crooked and miss-shapen, rears as described by others in this poll).
One had a chamber cut so deeply that the fired case opened up to over 50 caliber at the throat upon firing.]
One had over 25 thousandths head space and would not fire.
I can keep going but you'll think I work for Uberti ;D
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Hey Pards ... My MYSTERY FINGER ... locked the Poll. I have unlocked it so VOTE ON!
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Chaparral Winchester '76 Owners: Here are the email contacts should you have a problem with your rifle ...
Warranty - Charter Firearms Nick Ecker (nickecker@charterfirearms.com) ... Nick is the owner of Charter Arms. His wife's name is Dee and she usually answers the telephone. Chris is the gent at the workbench that does all the Warranty work
Chaparral USA - Charles Brown (sales@chaparralfirearms.com) ... Charles is the President of Chaparral USA
Chaparral Arms Company (Italy):
Nicola Nauti - Chaparral Arms (info@chaparralarms.com)
Angelo Buffoli (info@chaparralarms.com)
(Nicloa and Angleo are the owners of Chaparral Arms) ... Quality Control Issues ... Start and Ends with Persons. So if you want to let the owners know how well or poorly their QC is ... send them a mail! I have and they have replied. Even sent me parts to make some fixes for the 4 rifles us boyzs bought down here in south Jersey
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The Saga of W7612XX
Cartridge Lip Missing on Bolt Base
Charter Arms sent me a base bolt that had the cartridge support lip. ALL originals were made with the lip and if you don't have the lip on yours ... call Charter Arms. Found out that many rifles are/were missing the lip because some idiot at Italy ground them off!
Firing Pin Hole Not Cut Correctly
During the first 50 rounds through the rifle, noticed that the primer hits were near/on the primer hole. Toke the bolt out and the piston (original name for the firing pin) ... looked and yep - egg shaped. Was corrected with the new bolt base from Charter
Carrier Block Droops Below Receiver
Excess Head Space
These 2 problems - I packed the rifle in the truck and drove to Charter Arms because they were waffling about the fix. Nick Ecker and I disassembled the rifle after I proved to Nick that I had 0.014 excess head space and the Carrier Block drooped 0.019 below the receiver. We rummaged through the box of links looking for the longest ones - found 2 that were longer. With the bolt in battery, still have excess head space but with a 348 resized case in the chamber - head space is ZERO because the shoulder eliminated it. I consider this a fix. Also, a new Carrier Block and Carrier Lever were installed
Made a verbal agreement with Nick Ecker while at the plant ... if the head space worsens, the rifle will be replaced or a new barrel put on it
Why is there excess head space to begin with? Because Italy indexed the barrel incorrectly before it was installed onto the receiver.
Magazine Ring Doesn't Fit Flush into Dovetail Cut
Magazine Plug Lip Doesn't Fit Flush into Barrel Cut
... which causes the magazine tube to extend past the muzzle of the barrel and is an open issue, presently. IF, Italy made the magazine plug lip bigger and custom fitted it into the barrel cut slot - 1/2 of the problem would be fixed before it left Italy.
... if the elliptical dove tail was properly cut so the magazine ring fit FLUSH in the cut (I have a 0.014 gap) - the other 1/2 of the problem would have been resolved to preclude an 'extended magazine tube' and only be able to shoot the rifle as a single feed.
Italy came up with a threaded screw and sent me several (for the 4 rifles we have). Thread is metric, so I threaded a 6/32 screw into the tube ring. Still didn't hold the tube in place. Next, I took a 6/32 tap and broke the end off while doing the tap. The 'teeth' on the tap should have held the tube in place ... NOPE!
So, a new magazine plug is being made on my friend's lathe with a larger lip. The tube ring is at the welder having a TIG bead applied on the top of each end of the ring. The ring will be milled so it will be flat against the barrel in the slot cut to eliminate the 0.014 gap. Then the magazine plug will be custom fitted into the slot cut - after the tube and tube ring are properly set in place.
OK ... why am I going through this mastications instead of getting a replacement rifle? Here's why ...
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Misc/50ydTarget_17Aug07.jpg) ... 50yds
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Misc/PDRM2893.jpg) ... 100yds
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Misc/200300yd17Aug07.jpg) ... 200yd target (no X's on patches) and the patches with the X's are 300yd bullet holes shot on a 200yd target, including the one Bulls Eye! PS: the wind was gusting to 25mph from 11:00
In addition, I shot 500 meter Rams with consistency
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John
You aren't the first GUINEA PIG.........you're the five hundredth :'(
How should this make the potential consumer feel?
Someone is doing an Eastern two step here, for sure ;D
Sounds like a lot of excuses and lots of people have heard them.
Whatever happened to QUALITY CONTROL?
Not every one lives near Nick Ecker
Not every one wants to do their R and D
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HH ... 100% fact and I sent a scathing e-mail to Nicloa and Angelo basically saying what you posted, plus in no uncertain words:
If Chaparral wants to sell '76's in the US, they better upgrade their Quality Control because it SUCKS! Every rifle should have a QC paper in the box with an employee and supervisor's name on it
The proof will be ... if production unit serials greater than mine (12xx) have all the communicated problems corrected that have been sent to Italy by a Distributor - Charles Brown - Nick Ecker and my several mails
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John Boy
Thanks for the 45-75 Spec sheet you posted on the other thread! ;D
There are a lot of strikes here to correct, but lets not forget:
ASM is involved (that is bad MOJO) they try to hide the fact like a shell game :D
The "assembler" here in the US can NOT possibly be blameless (whether it's that they don't know how to build a rifle or hope that no one cares).
Think about the class action lawsuits that would abound if this was Motorola or Sony!
By the way my "problems" (Chaparral has never admitted there are any) were just like yours only it was regarding 5 rifles. I got the run around by the secretary, and the owner for over 3 months. All the while I was Really (I mean REALLY) nice and patient (as I didn't want to escalate things) and the culmination of my efforts was being cussed out (he called me on my cell).
I will NEVER buy another product that Charter has anything to do with and will NEVER recommend that anyone else does either >:(
Of course this is just my very sensored opinion...........
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The "assembler" here in the US can NOT possibly be blameless (whether it's that they don't know how to build a rifle or hope that no one cares).
I will NEVER buy another product that Charter has anything to do with and will NEVER recommend that anyone else does either
HH - ALL Chaparral firearms are produced and assembled in Italy now. Previously Charter only assembled the parts that was supplied to them by Italy. I know for a fact that Charter - Chaparral USA and the main Distributor complained heavily to Italy (Nicola and Angelo) for the shoddy workmanship - to the point they all are on the brink of disgusted with Italy. IMHO, if Charter was producing Chaparral firearms here in the US or had direct control of QC for parts made in Italy ... they would be selling like hot cakes
Look at any Chaparral ... if there are Italian proof marks on the firearm - it was produced - assembled in Italy and then sent to the US as a completed firearm ... in the box. Mine, serial 12xx, has Italian proof marks and that is the reason I complained directly to Nicola and Angelo in Italy
FYI: Nick Ecker, Charter Arms, is the person who designed the Henry Yellowboy action plus being a top notch designer and gunsmith. And I have never owned a 22 lever action rifle that has a slicker action - bar none. And his company sells 125,000+ Charter handguns per year.
My grind is not with Charter - it's solely with Nicola and Angelo. They are the ones responsible whether or not in house and sub contracted parts are properly made and assembled correctly. One of their employees even tried to keep the magazine tube from moving on mine by putting liquid solder on the magazine plug! Unfortunately, with the many emails to them - I can't get a commitment that they will implement a good QC program in place
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All of this anguish is certainly justified, I was very dissappointed with my $1225.00+ investment when it arrived. It sucks to be so excited and then so let down. The problem is there is no one to call and have confidence your paricular problem will be taken care of. Anyone look at the Uberti website?, not much there. The guns are basically dropped off here in the US and that's just about it. Oh sure, Taylor's has a resident gunsmith and so does the Chapp. distributer, probably. and I'm honestly sure they do their best. But what can they do really, it's one guy a million miles away from the factory, the guns are made overseas for crying out loud, by peoples that don't speak English! I'm almost embarrassed that these great old AMERICAN guns are made in Italy. Italy? Come on now. Great old American guns shouild be made in America, period, Amen
Carver
Post Script: If I had the capital, these guns would be made in the USA, by the best craftspersons, made of the best materials, and sold and supported by the best sales and support team in the country, and that's this country my friends.
I feel better now, thank you
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Carver
You are right on the money with Uberti. And Taylor's does stand behind the product.
BUT Chaparral went through a period where Charter assembled the rifles here in the US. The bottom line is those rifles were hands on with Charters employees and their work SUCKED! Then they just shipped them anyway. If John Boy is correct in his statements above then I am right when I say we were either GUINEA PIGS or worse!
It's pretty sad that the "tri-wood" Italy assembled guns and the "new" Italian ones now are 10 times better than the Charter guns :'(
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I got to view Charter Arms display of Chaparral's at Shot Show 07 back in January...
The Charter Arms display was 40'X 60' island but the Chaparral's were displayed on two 4' Tables at the left rear of the island booth almost an after thought.
They did not seen to be to proud of them... the samples were not the best ... the so called enhanced wood on the 73's & 76's was some kind of light color hardwood stained then had painted grain effect and polyurethane finish... poor wood to metal fit...
I gave review on the SASS wire of what I saw , and a wag ( I later discovered was a Chaparral Dealer ) blasted me..
seem his excuse was the guns were "Show models " and as such had been handled and abused ....
That might explain looseness or worn parts ( which these gun did not have ) but it did NOT answer the poor fit & finish... Cheesy wood finish.... and gaps in wood to metal... at a NATIONAL SHOW were EVERYONE else was putting the best wares & foot forward....
The wag also pointed out the wood was being replaced by Walnut ,in future offerings & and early buyers could replace or retro fit the Cheesy enhanced wood (at a cost) if they wished.
They also showed a 73 Colt Clone & a Colt style SXS Hammered Shotgun.... The 73 Colt Clone only fair with the same Cheesy finish Grips.
The SXS however was quite nice , though I suspect it was TTN with Chaparral marks.
I took a bashing over on the SASS wire for stating my observations....
As to Uberti... I have had nothing but good service from mine ...and Ms. Susanne Webb @ Uberti in Gardone' was quite helpful at Customer Service...
1981 Henry
1981 Yellowboy
and Currently:
1995 Henry
2006 Henry Steel Frame
2005 Colt OT
2007 Remington Forged Frame Conversion
Numerous : 1860's , Navies , Remingtons , 73 Clones & SW's I've purchased as Film props
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Major2
I also was "raped and maimed" by that "WAG" :D
and his "fast" friend.........on the SASS wire.
I also had a telephone conversation with the head honcho at the SASS office and was told they were monitoring all of my posts and would not allow any further comments regarding Crapparal :-X
They sure allo that "WAG" to continue to use their forum for profit though >:(
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I have no doubt...Seems there are members and then there are MEMBERS
That is precisely why I won't post there anymore... .
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The poll todate has recieved only 8 votes, and seems to be becoming a "dog pile." :( I do understand the frustration folks feel, but the place to address those issues is with the manufacture/importer. There is little to be gained beyond venting. All manufacturers producing any product will have issues - I know, I have bought a lot of guns, and they were not all as I expected!
I am asking that folks respond by voting, and if you have comments keep them constructive. :)
I believe the feedback to the community, and to manufacturers is important. However, in all fairness, those folks are not here to defend themselves.
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Ok.........
For fear of repisal, I feel it's time to get off the "wags" and back onto a more informative and helpful line of talk here ;D
I want to start by offering my help either via email, posts, or phone. I have a lot of years gunsmithing and although I probably will never know as much as some, I affected the necessary repairs on the five Chaparrals with the problems I mentioned farther up in this thread. If anyone comes on here and needs help or advise, don't hesitate to contact me. After 15 years of smithing I gave up my ffl but I have a near and dear friend with one (he builds custom flintlocks). I can help you with instruction and parts.
The Crapparal I kept was fortunately blessed with fair wood to metal fit. The headspace, bolt, firing pin, sights, mag tube, and whatever else I had problems with were all easy for me to correct. You can benefit from my experience and there are others who will chime in to help. My guess is there are a few hundred of these rifles floating around with either poor QC or some other form of ill "repair" by Charter.
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Ok.........
For fear of repisal, I feel it's time to get off the "wags" and back onto a more informative and helpful line of talk here ;D
I want to start by offering my help either via email, posts, or phone. I have a lot of years gunsmithing and although I probably will never know as much as some, I affected the necessary repairs on the five Chaparrals with the problems I mentioned farther up in this thread. If anyone comes on here and needs help or advise, don't hesitate to contact me. After 15 years of smithing I gave up my ffl but I have a near and dear friend with one (he builds custom flintlocks). I can help you with instruction and parts.
The Chaparral ;) I kept was fortunately blessed with fair wood to metal fit. The headspace, bolt, firing pin, sights, mag tube, and whatever else I had problems with were all easy for me to correct. You can benefit from my experience and there are others who will chime in to help. My guess is there are a few hundred of these rifles floating around with either poor QC or some other form of ill "repair" by Charter.
Your offer to help others benefit from your knowledge and experience is indeed constructive! :)
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HH - I believe that these are the items that most folks have/had with their '76's:
- Missing cartridge support lip on the bolt base
- Excess head space
- Magazine tube moving past the muzzle
Would you tell the folks how you corrected these problems?
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HH - I believe that these are the items that most folks have/had with their '76's:
- Missing cartridge support lip on the bolt base
This is a bit more than most will want to handle on their own and from what I have read Charter is replacing the bolts. It is not hard to TIG weld and grind/file a new one on (I do it all the time on orig 73's) but I have also noted that the lip does not have the proper curve on the rim side. Meaning it usually causes the bolt to force down upon closing on a case, causing "off-center" firing pin strikes (this magnifies as headspace decreases). If you look carefully you will see this happening. The cure is to carefully grind the "top" portion in a slight curve. Of course you have to remove the bolt to affect this repair.
The BEST fix for this is new longer toggle links. I can't really describe how to fit or lengthen them here because of space, but I CAN help anyone personally via email. I like Winchester Bob's links and they worked perfectly with one small modification.[/color]- Magazine tube moving past the muzzle
The easiest and most secure fix here is Silver Soldering the "ring" to the barrel and drilling the hole larger that the pin goes through, then making a larger pin. Two of the Five I fixed required the Silver Soldering as the dovetails cut in the barrel were terrible and the "ring" pulled off after the re-pinning.
Would you tell the folks how you corrected these problems?
Another issue, though it is only cosmetic, that is easy to fix is the "hump" where the "heel" at the top of the buttplate meets the stock. This requires heating the buttplate and forging it flat and then proper inletting.
Most other issues in function are addressed the same as on 1873's.
Also I have heard of side plate problems like lack of proper lips and such, these need to be addressed on an individual basis.
I hope this helps!
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Would you tell the folks how you corrected these problems?
HH - glad to contribute also ...
Missing lip on bolt base: Because the lip is necessary to allow the ejector to firming grip the cartridge and keep the loaded round from 'rising' when going into battery ... I took pictures of a dozen spent cases that I indexed, showing the primer hits near and at the primer hole. I sent them to Nick Ecker and Italy (Nicola and Angelo). Swiss Oscar also penned a lengthy letter to Nick detailing that original rifles had lips and the purpose that Winchester put them on the bolts. Ecker's email to Italy only contained one word ... HELP! Charter Arms then sent us 4 new base bolts with the lips.
Excess head space:
When I drove up to Charter Arms and proved to them that there was 014 excess head space with an unfired 348 case (062 rim diameter) in the chamber and bolt in battery ... I was provided with the parts drawer that contained the toggle links. I measured over 2 dozen and separated a couple that were 002 and 003" longer. They came home with me. Then I took each link and filed down the angles where the front and back link meet when fully extended. This increased the length of the links when the bolt based went into battery. In addition, the shoulders of the 348 reloads also took up head space and reduced the excess to zero with the bolt in battery and loaded cartridge in the chamber.
Magazine tube moving past the muzzle:
Is a Work In Process ... after two tries to use a larger pin through the tube ring. Considered the silver solder approach but decided against it because the ring would be permanently attached to the barrel.
Two conditions exist that keep allowing the tube to extend past the muzzle -
1. The elliptical dove tail on the barrel that holds the tube ring
(a) Was cut too deep allowing 014 gap between the barrel and the base of the ring
(b) Was cut too long. Before bluing, I believe the barrel sub contractor, put 3 punch marks on each dove tail 'ear' to force the ears down - to try to allow the ring to stay in place.
So, I'll pick up the tube ring this week. It will have a bead of TIG weld on each 'wing' of the ring. I'll mill the bead down so when it goes into the barrel dove tail there will be zero excess gap
2. The lip of magazine plug presently doesn't fit tightly into the slot cut. So a new plug with a longer ear with be made using my friend's (Swiss Oscar) lathe. Then with the tube in place and the ring properly seated to the barrel, the plug will be custom fitted into the slot cut so it is absolutely tight. A 6/32 thread screw through a half moon cut on top of the magazine tube will be tapped into the ring base to hold the ring/tube tension. What Italy did before they shipped the rifle I received didn't work. They applied cold solder to the plug and barrel to try and hold everything together 'tightly'!
The incorrectly indexed barrel that was fitted to the receiver on mine - causing the excess head space ... is postponed because the rifle shoots great groups. I have an agreement with Charter Arms. If the head space starts to 'grow' after the rifle loosens up ... they will replace the whole rifle under warranty
I heard also about the side plate problem, specifically the right one with the loading gate. This was a problem with the xxx digit serial number rifles and has since been corrected. It can be replaced by Charter Arms under warranty
Misfires are another known issue. Using cartridges with a 057 rim diameter and excess head space are the contributors. I understand the Chaparral Arms in Italy now has GO-NO GO gauges, presumed on a case with a 062 rim diameter. Would be interesting to know the serial numbers that don't have a problem with head space ... indicating that the gauges are being used before the rifles are shipped
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John Boy
The "lip" on the lower face of the bolt (the "replacements" I have seen) will leave a heavy impression on the edge of the case rim (often miss-interpreted as an extractor or ejector mark) if the rifle in question has minimum headspace. This is why I explained the fix the way I did in the post above. It would be "correct" like it is if the case rim was tapered like the original balloon head cases were. When you say, "there was 014 excess head space with an unfired 348 case (062 rim diameter) in the chamber" you mean rim thickness right?
I have seen one other barrel that was peened that way. But there is no control evident in the size or shape of that dovetail from rifle to rifle. It also should be tapered.
Silver soldering only makes the magazine ring "semi-permanent" as it can be heated the same way to remove. My heli arc skills are pretty good and I can't build up that ring in that area with any hope that it will be appealing afterward ;D The solder approach (done correctly) is darn near invisable and has no real effects on the bluing.
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you mean rim thickness right?
HH - Correct
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If your fired case looks like the one on the left instead of looking like the one on the right, send the rifle back to Chaparral :'(
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/buckoff123/100_0581.jpg)
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has chapperal started to offer replacement wood for walnut on the early 76's yet? i never really liked that weard wood the first came out with. kurt250
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has chapperal started to offer replacement wood for walnut on the early 76's yet? i never really liked that weard wood the first came out with. kurt250
Kurt
I have read a number of posts on other forums where gents say that the wood under the faux finish (triwood) is the same wood as the newer (non triwood) guns. It appears an easy process to strip and refinish ;)
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Let's Start a List:
Was your Chaparral or Uberti '76 Winchester slick as a whistle - Out of the Box ... or was there problems with it?
I bought the Chaparral. To begin with let me state that Charter Arms took care of all the problems I had.
(1): The Receiver Tang was stamped Model of 1866
(2): The receiver was full of grease.
(3): It took me half an hour to scrub the barrel clean of all the gook that was in it. This was even before I fired it.
(4): The elevator cutout was not cut square.
(5): The pin holding the Magazine tube fell out when I was firing it and the cap and magazine spring popped out the front of the magazine.
If you had (have) problems with your rifle, what did you do to correct it or what do you intend to do to resolve it?
(1): I contacted the feller who sold me the rifle, and he put me on to the Gentleman up at Charter Arms, Nick Ecker, who had me send it back to him for replacement.
(2): I did not like the front or rear sights so I replaced them with a set of Marbles Full Buckhorn Rear Sight and a 3/32nd White Dot Front Sight
In the poll, you can vote up to 9 of the options - if you experienced all 9 listed. If you encountered a problem that is not listed, please vote for Option 9 and explain what it was in the thread
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Grapeshot
Option #10:
Given what you experienced and now know about the Chaparral would you buy another?
Option#11:
After experiencing said problems would you recommend a Chaparral to a friend?
Option #12:
How's that Uberti sounding right about now ;D
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Option #10:
Given what you experienced and now know about the Chaparral would you buy another?
Only if I can get their carbine, RCMP type, in .45-60.
Option#11:
After experiencing said problems would you recommend a Chaparral to a friend?
Only If I know that their QC issues were cleared up. The guns do shoot well.
Option #12:
How's that Uberti sounding right about now ? ;D
A whole lot better, however, they weren't available at the time I bought mine.
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Well, after 3 fixes to correct the magazine tube from moving past the muzzle during recoil - I called Charter Arms yesterday and talked to Dee Ecker for new parts
- Magazine Tube
- Plug
- Ring
- and a forearm screw that I left on the bench when I was up there
Got a call today from Dee and Chris (who does the repairs) is sending out the parts TODAY!
I call this SERVICE with a capital 'S'
Of course, I promised Dee a box of chocolates the next time I'm up in CT ;)
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Chapparal 1876 45/60 early (sub 300) serial number. Most accurate shooting heap of crap I have ever had to deal with........
1. cheap,ill-fitting,ugly faux-finished box wood stocks replaced with beautiful American wallnut,hand fitted=$350.00
2.Front sight blade fell out after 4 shots,replaced with excellent Marbles for=$28.00
3.Rear sight from old Mattel toys stock...shockingly junky.=Buffalo arms contacted and sold me an authentic replica $150.00.
4.Safety disconector does not contact pad on lever.....no fix at present.
5.Excessively tight lock-up on closing,perhaps too little headspace.
6.Action was full of very stiff grease.
7.Paid an initial $1000.00 for a $500.00 gun.
8.Made at the OLD Armi-San-Marco factory home of the A.W.A. line of troubled guns.
The barrels on these rifles is the best part,they should sell them to Uberti(unless,of course,that is who they buy them from!)
Never again!!!!,I will hand -pick a Uberti next time and I am sure it will be a better peice. Doc
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I'd love to own a decent '76 replica........but..........after looking at 6 different rifles at 2 different gun shows, and several more on dealers racks on both ends of the country, I couldn't buy one. Until someone like USFA builds one I can't see spending hard earned (or any other kind) of money on one of these. It's really a shame.
ShieldsMT
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Chapparal 1876 45/60 early (sub 300) serial number. Most accurate shooting heap of crap I have ever had to deal with........
1. cheap,ill-fitting,ugly faux-finished box wood stocks replaced with beautiful American wallnut,hand fitted=$350.00
2.Front sight blade fell out after 4 shots,replaced with excellent Marbles for=$28.00
3.Rear sight from old Mattel toys stock...shockingly junky.=Buffalo arms contacted and sold me an authentic replica $150.00.
4.Safety disconector does not contact pad on lever.....no fix at present.
5.Excessively tight lock-up on closing,perhaps too little headspace.
6.Action was full of very stiff grease.
7.Paid an initial $1000.00 for a $500.00 gun.
8.Made at the OLD Armi-San-Marco factory home of the A.W.A. line of troubled guns.
The barrels on these rifles is the best part,they should sell them to Uberti(unless,of course,that is who they buy them from!)
Never again!!!!,I will hand -pick a Uberti next time and I am sure it will be a better peice. Doc
Doc
"4.Safety disconector does not contact pad on lever.....no fix at present."
More than likely the spring either is not sitting on the disconnector or it does not have sufficient pressure.
"5.Excessively tight lock-up on closing,perhaps too little headspace."
Try checking the headspace this way; with an empty (fired) case in the chamber and the action closed insert automotive type feeler gauge from the side between the case and boltface (you should be able to just get it in under the extractor) if a 2 or 3 thousnadths gauge won't go in then you have too little headspace. BUT Jamison brass tends to run a few thousandths smaller. Shame there is none available now. If you have sufficient headspace then there is another problem!
I feel for you and my problems were much worse!
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Chapparal 1876 45/60 early (sub 300) serial number. Most accurate shooting heap of crap I have ever had to deal with........
1. cheap,ill-fitting,ugly faux-finished box wood stocks replaced with beautiful American wallnut,hand fitted=$350.00
2.Front sight blade fell out after 4 shots,replaced with excellent Marbles for=$28.00
3.Rear sight from old Mattel toys stock...shockingly junky.=Buffalo arms contacted and sold me an authentic replica $150.00.
4.Safety disconector does not contact pad on lever.....no fix at present.
5.Excessively tight lock-up on closing,perhaps too little headspace.
6.Action was full of very stiff grease.
7.Paid an initial $1000.00 for a $500.00 gun.
8.Made at the OLD Armi-San-Marco factory home of the A.W.A. line of troubled guns.
The barrels on these rifles is the best part,they should sell them to Uberti(unless,of course,that is who they buy them from!)
Never again!!!!,I will hand -pick a Uberti next time and I am sure it will be a better peice. Doc
The quality and accuracy of the barrels seems to be a common theme with the Chaparral. Makes folks more willing to put up with the rest of the issues! Well, "the only interesting rifles are accurate rifles." Hmmmmmm...someone said that! ;)
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Yes this rifle is accurate and therefore"interesting".I would rather have been able to purcase a gun with a Uberti action, American woodwork and sights and THAT barrel from Chapparal.
I have W.W. 45/70 brass turned-down to 45/60 and mold my own projectiles from 50/50 wheel weight and pure lead into an R.C.B.S. 350 grain gas-checked projectile sized at .459(most important dimension).Lit-up by xmp5744 over a Winchester primer produces impressive accuracy.Even though this is a very desired addition to my shooting experiences I think it is a shame in this day and age to have to reconstruct a relatively expensive mechanism to make it perform at 1876 levals of quality and result.Doc.
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Well I have to say that I have been nothing but pleased with my Chapparal. Not only is it very accurate, it is also very smooth operating. And the wood to metal fit is also very well done.
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Quik Fire I am very glad for you,I'll bet that the importer had to do a lot of fancy dancin' in Italy to bring the standard up.I simply got caught with what should have been a pre-production gun.Too bad they decided to "test "the market by letting us buy the experimental pieces.I can help them by saying that apart from about everything else on their product they needn't improve the barrels!.Doc.
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This is the first post ever on an internet site so I hope it goes OK.
I Recieved my Cimarron/Uberti Model 1876 in June of this year. Right out of the box it was about as perfect as one should expect. The first thing I did before shooting it was to replace the front sight with a combination beech sight from Montana Vintage Arms. Next I removed the rear barrel sight and replaced it with a fitted piece of walnut so I wouldn't cut my hand on the exposed dovetail. Then I installed a Marbles tang sight (by the way if anyone is going to do the same get the sight specified for the 1973 Winchester since the base part is further forward and leaves more room for your thumb to wrap around the wrist) since my old eyes require this. I slugged the bore and it came out just under 0.458. I am using the RCBS 45 - 300 GC that I buy from Frank at Mt Baldy Bullets up in Cody. The bullets are cast of 1:20 alloy and lubed with SPG and are 0.459 inches.
Before I received my rifle I made some cases from 45-70 brass. When I received the rifle I found that some of the cartridges would not let me close the lever without a lot of force. I measured the rim thickness on the ones I was having trouble with and found that any rim thicker than 0.064 would not close. I ordered some cases from Buffalo Arms that have the rims thinned and have not had any trouble since.
The second group of five shots fired from a bench at 50 yards and four shots in one hole 0.5 inches center to center and of course the fifth shot opened the group up to 1.875 inches. Not bad for an old fat guy with bad eyes. I had witnesses to.
Jubal Wilson
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Jubal - Welcome to Winchester 76 and the excellent informative post. Thanks for sharing.
Do have a question: presume the 458 on the Uberti is groove diameter. Would you happen to know the bore diameter?
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I'd love to own a decent '76 replica........but..........after looking at 6 different rifles at 2 different gun shows, and several more on dealers racks on both ends of the country, I couldn't buy one. Until someone like USFA builds one I can't see spending hard earned (or any other kind) of money on one of these. It's really a shame.
ShieldsMT
You are missing out on a great reproduction firearm. Sure, some of them have some problems, but in most cases I have seen from people reporting here on the web is that they can be fixed with relatively minimal effort. I simply sent mine back to Taylors and they fixed it and had it back to me within a week. Now it functions and shoots well. One thing you need to remember is that even back pre 1900 guns would come into hardware stores with flaws that people ended up having to fix. So in this regard the guns that we are getting are "period correct". I hope you join us buy finding a 76 that you like and are willing to spend the money on. By the way dont hold your breath too long waiting for USFA to make a 76 as it won't happen. Regards. Deadeye.
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john boy,
I forgot to measure the bore diameter but next time it gets above freezing in the garage I will slug it again and let you know.
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John Boy, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! ;D
I really like my 22" Chaparrel 1876 rifle in the 45-75 caliber. But, not has a single shot rifle! Hah! I have had problems from the get-go. From headspace, to levering the round into the chamber, to poor ignition (which could be the headspace problem), and off-center primer hits, are the main issues. I have used the Ten-X 45-75 brass and reformed Winchester 348 brass, all with equal problems with the list above. Quite frankly, I really enjoyed working up a couple of loads, but became a bit frustrated with the rifle problems. I pushed it back into the back part of the safe. :'(
For some reason, I called Nick up and explained my problems and he said to send it in with a letter of my concerns and they would fix it. Hmmm, So I did ship it to them and they have it and as I am to understand, it should be arriving back to me this week.
I will have an update in the new year of 2008.
Sincerely,
Oklahoma Dee
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Dee - Nice to hear from you and the Best New Year!
Am interested how Chris at Charter Arms reworks you rifle to clear the issues and how it functions when you receive it.
I'm down to one issue: correcting the magazine tube from sliding past the muzzle during recoil. Called Charter Arms and they have sent me new parts: plug - tube and tube ring. Am going to do the 3rd repair after the Holidays to correct it. Hopefully, it will be the last issue I have.
But have to say 3 things:
1. Angleo, who is the principal owner of Chaparrel Arms in Italy, due to lack of quality control ... has put a real BLACK NAME on Chaparrel. To the extent that he has driven this company into a hole and is shoveling dirt over it. Sure would be nice for all if he would do a turn around. If he did, I would buy another one in 40-60
2. Correcting all the production issues has almost been a full time job
3. Whoever is boring the barrels on these rifles did an outstanding job. Mine is a top grade very accurate shooting rifle out to 500yds ... with Black and White powders
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I received a NWMP 1876 carbine in 45-75 for Christmas and had many problems with it right out of the box. The wood was finished in a thick ugly high gloss polyurethane. All the photos of the carbine on the chaparral site show the carbine with a satin oil looking finish??? The bolt was missing the lug and had rough grind marks on the face. Excess head space caused missfires. Off center primer strike. The front site was off center and the site post was pointing at about 1 O'clock. The brass elevator hung below the receiver. The cocking lever had so much right and left play it barely made contact with the trigger safety and the NWMP was very poorly stamped on the butt stock and barely visible. I called charter Arms and explained the issues and they were very apologetic. They told me the chaparral line has been a real challenge for them but they would continue to make things right with the rifles. They even paid the FedX charges for me to ship the rifle back to them for repair. I sent it back on Dec. 27th. I'll let you know how things work out and what it looks like when I get it back.
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I received a NWMP 1876 carbine in 45-75 for Christmas and had many problems with it right out of the box. The wood was finished in a thick ugly high gloss polyurethane. All the photos of the carbine on the chaparral site show the carbine with a satin oil looking finish??? The bolt was missing the lug and had rough grind marks on the face. Excess head space caused missfires. Off center primer strike. The front site was off center and the site post was pointing at about 1 O'clock. The brass elevator hung below the receiver. The cocking lever had so much right and left play it barely made contact with the trigger safety and the NWMP was very poorly stamped on the butt stock and barely visible. I called charter Arms and explained the issues and they were very apologetic. They told me the chaparral line has been a real challenge for them but they would continue to make things right with the rifles. They even paid the FedX charges for me to ship the rifle back to them for repair. I sent it back on Dec. 27th. I'll let you know how things work out and what it looks like when I get it back.
That doesn't even come close to matching MY NWMP SRC! Yep, oil finish, everything properly aligned. Mechanism functions properly. Firing pin strike SLIGHTLY off center.
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Took my Christmas Chaparral out today for the first time. One problem sent it to the smith right away: the lever safety gizmo under the wrist would task Godzilla. Must be a seventy pound spring. Easy fix. Other than that, it seems to be sensitive to short rounds, wouldn't load them as well as I'd have liked. Did fine with the bullet seated out a bit.
Took some half gallon plastic jugs filled with water for targets. First round dead on target. If I did my job, the rifle played its part perfectly (Except for rupturing a tendon trying to squeeze that lever hard enough to fire the dang thing.
I'm happy with the overly long, muzzle heavy, everything heavy big SOB.
It's a keeper.
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I'm happy with the overly long, muzzle heavy, everything heavy big SOB.
It's a keeper.
Har! Ain't it the truth! Glad your new carbine is working out. ;)
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Carbine my Aunt Fannie's fanny. This sucker has a 26" barrel (Note: a 28" wouldn't fit in my zippered carrying cases.)
Same length barrel on my new '86 and the '86 is 2" shorter than the '76...and a pound or more lighter, too. Even so, the '76 hangs right on the target and doesn't wobble all over the countryside.
I'll probably change the sights, but to be honest, the stock ones aren't bad, just enough different that I'm not used to them.
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:-\ You know, I been thinking all this over and even though I like my "Cimmie" 45-75, it still has a few bugs that i have worked out and had a Chapparal that was sent back earlier but that is another story all in itself. My point is this: Why do all of us have to fix these things up and tidy up either minor or major problems with them when, out of the box, they should be perfect in all respects? In my opinion, it boils down to one thing and one thing only and that is QUALITY CONTROL and that should be at the factory not at the sales however that spot should be made aware as these come in to their store and examined before shipping to us-the consumer. Case in point, several years ago-15 in fact, I got me a Winchester "Trapper". I was damn well upset and should have sent it back but instead fixed it myself and sent a really, really hot letter to Winchester. The wood to metal fit was so bad I restocked it and the barrel muzzle looked like it had been cut with a hacksaw and I recrowned it and to top it off the scrolling, on the barrel, was doublel rolled so that if you had a dozen beers it came into focus. My point here was, again, lack of QUALITY CONTROL and that nut, at Winchester, should have been canned!
I felt that I had to get all this off my chest. Some one may want to argue with these comments but that is what this site if for--to express ones self. I really like my present '76 although, again, there were a few problems that were taken care that should not have been there. So that is all I have to get off my chest. For now at least!
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It's not just guns, larryo. Somewhere on this wire I have a rant about everything from TVs to computer components, cars to kitchen appliances, etc. Manufacturers keep getting by with it because the vast majority of consumers accept it.
Join me on my soapbox and we can rave against the world together.
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>:( Forty Rod, Couldn't agree with you more. Now we have to get stuff that is made in Mexico, China and other such places. Can't even get a new pair of felt booties for my Sorels that are mad here rather in China! Even door knobs and anything else you get plus, if you go to Lowes, you better understand Spanish cause that is what 90% of the signs are in. In a way, i think that we have brought alot of this on ourselfs.
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Well, I got my Chaparral 1876 22" barrelled, 45-75 caliber lever rifle back from Charter Arms. I had sent in on November 25, 2007 to be fixed due to a chambering problem and an ignition problem. I sent with the rifle 4 brass, 2 in the 45-75 brass that I had from TEN_X, and 2 from my stash (Thanks GRIZ!) of reformed 348 brass. I called about every 10days and checked on any status. They shipped it out on January the 3rd, 2008. I received it ;D and a Customer Service Repair Order form, which was filled in my my name and address and my rifle spec's. The corrective action area was filled in with - New Mainspring, Bolt and F. Pin, Champhered Chamber, Funct + Fired OK.
I tested the loading and chambering of my rounds and that seemed to be pretty well fixed ;) . I headed to the range and settled in at the 25 yard target bench. Loaded one round in and levered her in (no problem) and pulled that trigger and .....click the hammer rang home.....nothing, no ignition :o :-X . I recocked the hammer and Blam! Center hit on the high side. Out of 14 rounds, 3 rounds fired the first time. Not good!
Soooo, the final results are ... out of two problems, Charter Arms fixed one, the chambering problem. The other problem of ignition is still present. I am a bit bummed and deflated.
I am wondering if it could be that the ignition problem is in my reloading. I have not had any problems in reloading my 45-70 Trapdoor rounds, they all go off. So I feel that is ruled out.
I guess I will call on Monday and talk with Charter Arms and see what we can do.
Puzzled in Houston,
Oklahoma Dee
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Okdee, Sorry ta hear bout your trouble. Have you checked the head space with the rounds that miss fired and the ones that fired?
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Dee
Check to be sure that the extractor fits correctly in the groove in the barrel. I have seen many of these Chaparral rifles with this problem. What happens is the extractor rides up over the rim and then holds the case slightly out of the chamber. This combined with their inherent (too much) head space issues causes the case to move when the firing pin strikes the primer. This in turn absorbs enough force (kinda like a primer not fully seated, but worse) to not detonate the primer. This is probably why your firing pin strike is high as the extractor is on the top lifting the case ever so slightly.
Sucks to have to do your own R&D and fixing on such a big investment, huh ???
I wonder how much Nick Ecker pays these unquailifed "gun parts changers" :-X
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>:( I had the same sort of experience with a Chaparral that I had gotten this past summer and after lots of problems, I went and got a Cimmeron. I told Grizzley Adams about my problems and he symphazied with me. Can't say that I have too many kind words about Chapparal arms but as I said earlier, it all boils down to damn poor Quality Control both here and in Italy. There are alot of folks out there that have these firearms and love them so maybe it is hit and miss? I know that my Cimmeron is a great rifle and seems to get smoother every time that it is fired. I did redo the stock to an oil finish and that is one point that Uberti could increase their sales on-that is-that they would offer an oil finish rather than the finish that is on their rifles which is too prone to scratching.
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COG, I kinda figured that would be the main issue with the ignition problem that I reported to Charter Arms about. They changed out the bolt and firing pin, and so I figured that they would definitely verify the headspace with the new bolt. Maybe not. :o I will check it, though.
Thanks
Oklahoma Dee
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Hello Hoof Hearted,
I can definetly see what you are referring to! :-\ Okay, that seems to be sympton that I have with this rifle. What are my options? Trim a few thousandths off the bottom of the extractor claw? Take a dremel tool to the barrel lip that the extractor slips up on? What have you done, that gives you success with these situations?
Thanks
Oklahoma Dee
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Hello Hoof Hearted,
I can definetly see what you are referring to! :-\ Okay, that seems to be sympton that I have with this rifle. What are my options? Trim a few thousandths off the bottom of the extractor claw? Take a dremel tool to the barrel lip that the extractor slips up on? What have you done, that gives you success with these situations?
Thanks
Oklahoma Dee
Dee
Before you start and for your own info and the thread's, take some feeler gauges and check the headspace on your rifle. Go between the bolt face and the back of a deprimed fired case. Then check it again after modification. I think the "parts changers" at Charter are either going by feel or not checking them at all.
I would (with a dremel) deepen, or alter the barrel first. But go slow here it is much harder to put metal back!
If I remember right, I have also had to slightly deepen the "hook" on the extractor. Originally the brass for these rifles had a bevel on the face and the current brass is slghtly thicker where the extractor slips over it. Also larger diameter rims will cause the extractor to lift up more, creating interference with the top of the extractor. You'll see if you really look at how this design works.
Good luck and if you need more help, I'm here ;)
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Hello Hoof Hearted,
I can definetly see what you are referring to! :-\ Okay, that seems to be sympton that I have with this rifle. What are my options? Trim a few thousandths off the bottom of the extractor claw? Take a dremel tool to the barrel lip that the extractor slips up on? What have you done, that gives you success with these situations?
Thanks
Oklahoma Dee
I think I would start with the least expensive part - the extractor - and see if that helps. But, I am not a gunsmith, so I will defer to HH on this one.
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I think I would start with the least expensive part - the extractor - and see if that helps. But, I am not a gunsmith, so I will defer to HH on this one.
GA
Normally your line of thinking would be the most prudent :P
But the extractor's job would be deminished by removing material where the interference is in the barrel. If you make any alterations to it, do so in mind that it still has to be reasonably strong and must still grip the rim in such a way as to be able to do it's job.
Many of you have rifles that show off center firing pin strikes. The bolt is sticking out there a mile on this design, unsupported :'(
Any interference as it locks up, will deflect it from center.
Correctly "set up" a toggle link should have the feel of "snapping" closed, crisp and it should feel "smart".
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GA
Normally your line of thinking would be the most prudent :P
But the extractor's job would be deminished by removing material where the interference is in the barrel. If you make any alterations to it, do so in mind that it still has to be reasonably strong and must still grip the rim in such a way as to be able to do it's job.
Many of you have rifles that show off center firing pin strikes. The bolt is sticking out there a mile on this design, unsupported :'(
Any interference as it locks up, will deflect it from center.
Correctly "set up" a toggle link should have the feel of "snapping" closed, crisp and it should feel "smart".
Thanks, HH. :)
This problem with headspace and off center firing pin strikes has plagued many of the Chaparrals from the git go. In reviewing this thread, it is abundantly clear that many folks, John Boy in particular, have had eye to eye discussion with the decision makers about this problem. Certainly enough feedback has been provided to see corrective measures taken at this point. :-\
Another thing that is clear from this thread is that some folks have received guns with NO problems of this kind. I wonder if that indicates some improvement beginning with certain serial numbers?
GA
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Hey HH! Thanks for the info. I have some more info.
Upon closer scrunity (?) inspection maybe a better word ;D, I found this to be true on my rifle.
1. Fully lever the rifle open. Your bolt is back and the carrier block is up.
2. Taking a light and peering down where the bolt and the carrier block will come to together.
3. My bolt is below the carrier block! Probably a sixteenth of an inch, lower. I can see the brass markings on the face of the bolt. In order for me to lever the round forward into the chamber. I have to force the bolt to popup over the lip of the carrier block. , upward onto the carrier block, before the round will move forward. While I close the lever and drive the bolt forward, I can feel and see the bolt grinding along the surface of the carrier block as it moves forward into the it final location.
NOT GOOD!
4. From this I arrive at a couple of conclusions.
5. The carrier block is not correctly milled for this rifle, or maybe for any rifle for that matter. It is not cut or milled deep enough to allow the bolt to smoothly slide forward. When the bolt is popped up and on top of the carrier block, in order to move the round forward......the bolt is actually elevated or raised out of line with the barrel. ( I hope )
OR !!!! Could it be that the lever action forward to open it, somewhere the lever is incorrectly milled and is setting the carrier block to high?
In either case, when the round iand bolt are locked into the chamber , it is out of alignment.
CONCLUSION??? This maybe causing the high primer hits and ignition problems i experience. Due to the bolt being high in relation to the barrell. Or out of alignment.
PATH FORWARD???
1. Take a dremel tool and deepen the carrier block to where the bolt does not have to rampup or popup onto it.
2. Send it back to Charter Arms, explains my findings and requesting correction? This could take a month or more. Heck, will Charter Arms, in light of the problems, be around to fix and return it to me?
3. Your thoughts???
Hopeful in Houston, ;D
Oklahoma Dee
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Thanks, HH. :)
This problem with headspace and off center firing pin strikes has plagued many of the Chaparrals from the git go. In reviewing this thread, it is abundantly clear that many folks, John Boy in particular, have had eye to eye discussion with the decision makers about this problem. Certainly enough feedback has been provided to see corrective measures taken at this point. :-\
Another thing that is clear from this thread is that some folks have received guns with NO problems of this kind. I wonder if that indicates some improvement beginning with certain serial numbers?
GA
GA
Certainly the factory has taken some of this input from our "guinea piggin" to heart and tried to rectify some problems.
But why have they not tried to get the word out to the owners of the "problem" guns? You know damn good and well that they are aware of this thread. I have heard of bad toggle pins (actually could be a very dangerous situation), missing "cartridge lip" on bolt, and on and on.
If Nick at Charter gave a HOOT he would get on here acting as their agent. I truly after my problems with him feel he is very disingenuous to say the least :-\
The fact that this does not happen PROVES that they EXPECT us to be THEIR GUINEA PIGS.
As to the matter of some good guns some bad, well, some men are chubby chasers ;D
But really, these rifles are not hand fitted, in the old way (as their gunsmiths are not trained in the old ways) so tolerance issues in manufacturing can "stack" either way, to the good or the bad. This is why Uberti modified a number of items in the toggle link design. With their re-engineering of the links and other parts they were able to eliminate the need for hand fitting. Chaparral chose to stick with the original design and let us weed out the problems!
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Hey HH! Thanks for the info. I have some more info.
Upon closer scrunity (?) inspection maybe a better word ;D, I found this to be true on my rifle.
1. Fully lever the rifle open. Your bolt is back and the carrier block is up.
2. Taking a light and peering down where the bolt and the carrier block will come to together.
3. My bolt is below the carrier block! Probably a sixteenth of an inch, lower. I can see the brass markings on the face of the bolt. In order for me to lever the round forward into the chamber. I have to force the bolt to popup over the lip of the carrier block. , upward onto the carrier block, before the round will move forward. While I close the lever and drive the bolt forward, I can feel and see the bolt grinding along the surface of the carrier block as it moves forward into the it final location.
NOT GOOD!
4. From this I arrive at a couple of conclusions.
5. The carrier block is not correctly milled for this rifle, or maybe for any rifle for that matter. It is not cut or milled deep enough to allow the bolt to smoothly slide forward. When the bolt is popped up and on top of the carrier block, in order to move the round forward......the bolt is actually elevated or raised out of line with the barrel. ( I hope )
OR !!!! Could it be that the lever action forward to open it, somewhere the lever is incorrectly milled and is setting the carrier block to high?
In either case, when the round iand bolt are locked into the chamber , it is out of alignment.
CONCLUSION??? This maybe causing the high primer hits and ignition problems i experience. Due to the bolt being high in relation to the barrell. Or out of alignment.
PATH FORWARD???
1. Take a dremel tool and deepen the carrier block to where the bolt does not have to rampup or popup onto it.
2. Send it back to Charter Arms, explains my findings and requesting correction? This could take a month or more. Heck, will Charter Arms, in light of the problems, be around to fix and return it to me?
3. Your thoughts???
Hopeful in Houston, ;D
Oklahoma Dee
Dee
Sorry I missed this post earlier!
This is getting pretty indepth. Email me directly and we'll talk. My address is in my signature line.
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Hey HH! Thanks for the info. I have some more info.
Upon closer scrunity (?) inspection maybe a better word ;D, I found this to be true on my rifle.
1. Fully lever the rifle open. Your bolt is back and the carrier block is up.
2. Taking a light and peering down where the bolt and the carrier block will come to together.
3. My bolt is below the carrier block! Probably a sixteenth of an inch, lower. I can see the brass markings on the face of the bolt. In order for me to lever the round forward into the chamber. I have to force the bolt to popup over the lip of the carrier block. , upward onto the carrier block, before the round will move forward. While I close the lever and drive the bolt forward, I can feel ???and see the bolt grinding along the surface of the carrier block as it moves forward into the it final location.
NOT GOOD!
4. From this I arrive at a couple of conclusions.
5. The carrier block is not correctly milled for this rifle, or maybe for any rifle for that matter. It is not cut or milled deep enough to allow the bolt to smoothly slide forward. When the bolt is popped up and on top of the carrier block, in order to move the round forward......the bolt is actually elevated or raised out of line with the barrel. ( I hope )
OR !!!! Could it be that the lever action forward to open it, somewhere the lever is incorrectly milled and is setting the carrier block to high?
In either case, when the round iand bolt are locked into the chamber , it is out of alignment.
CONCLUSION??? This maybe causing the high primer hits and ignition problems i experience. Due to the bolt being high in relation to the barrell. Or out of alignment.
PATH FORWARD???
1. Take a dremel tool and deepen the carrier block to where the bolt does not have to rampup or popup onto it.
2. Send it back to Charter Arms, explains my findings and requesting correction? This could take a month or more. Heck, will Charter Arms, in light of the problems, be around to fix and return it to me?
3. Your thoughts???
Hopeful in Houston, ;D
Oklahoma Dee
I had a similar problem once with a 73. It was in the carrier arm. I had to remove material from the carrier where it contacts the lever in order to get the timing correct.
With all of the issues you have described, I think I would be inclined to send it back to Chaparral. I would not give them any excuse to void your warranty. >:(
??? In any case, I hope you get it worked out. Keep us posted, Dee. :-\
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With all of the issues you have described, I think I would be inclined to send it back to Chaparral. I would not give them any excuse to void your warranty. >:(
??? In any case, I hope you get it worked out. Keep us posted, Dee. :-\
Hey Griz, I'm thinkin I am gona just wing this on my own, or work with my gunsmith here in Houston. I pulled the 76 apart and found a poor attempt, by someone at Charter, trying to get the bolt to push downward. At lest that is what it appears to me. I am okay with working it on my own time and testing this an that to see what can improve it. The fit and finish on my rifle is very good. I figure in time she will be a very good rifle.
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Hey Griz, I'm thinkin I am gona just wing this on my own, or work with my gunsmith here in Houston. I pulled the 76 apart and found a poor attempt, by someone at Charter, trying to get the bolt to push downward. At lest that is what it appears to me. I am okay with working it on my own time and testing this an that to see what can improve it. The fit and finish on my rifle is very good. I figure in time she will be a very good rifle.
Sounds like a plan, Dee. Hope you get it squared away soon. Good luck, and keep us posted as to what work you had to do, and the issue involved. :)
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My Taylor/Uberti .45-60 had a bad crown. The average 50yd groups were better than 6". This from a bench rest.
There was a dimple in the crown that had to have been there before it was blued as the blue was still inside the dimple.
I sent it back to Taylors & they made an attempt to fix it.
It did shoot better when it was returned but still not good enough & the dimple was still there.
I then sent it to John King of Montana who properly pulled the barrel & crowned it properly then returned it promptly.
The rifle now will shoot 1 inch groups at 75 yards when I do my part.
I can't say that I'm very happy with Taylor's gunsmithing services. This was an easy, no brainer fix & they were too lazy to do the job proberly.
I cost me $100.00 to get this fixed. I can't say enough about John King's services. He was great to work with & knows what he's doing.
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I purchased a Chaparral 1876 in .40-60 about a year ago and it was fine out of the box - no problems what so ever. I've since purchased a Cimarron 1876 in .45-75 and it is fine also. I have a Cimarron 1873 in .44-40 that I've fired 1000's of rounds thru. The only thing I've had to do is replace the extractor after 12 years of Cowboy Action shooting . I did have a problem with another Cimarron (Uberti) 1873 in .32-20. The nose cap screw was drilled thru the magazine tube and wouldn't allow more than about 5 rounds to be loaded. This was easily fixed. I also had a problem with a Cimarron Lightning pistol. The firing pin was too short. It would misfire about once out of 5 rounds. I sent it back and they fixed it. Now this is the best shooting revolver I have. I also am still shooting a Cimarron SSA 1873 that I've used for over 20 years in Cowboy Action shooting. I've replaced the firing pin and the cylinder stop/trigger spring. I also installed lighter mainspring. Although I've had some problems with Cimarron (Uberti) firearms, I still think they are excellent quality firearms and would not hesitate to order another one. I have only on Chaparral firearm, but It also seems to be excellent quality.
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I ordered 5 Chapparals at the same time in 45-75 (small group of us HAD to have them).
3 of the 5 had magazine tubes fly off in the 1st 10 rounds shot.
One would not even lever open. It had a hammer spur bent so bad that it hit the receiver tang.
One had a split forend.
One cracked the stock at the tang in less than a week.
The sights were terrible (front crooked and miss-shapen, rears as described by others in this poll).
One had a chamber cut so deeply that the fired case opened up to over 50 caliber at the throat upon firing.]
One had over 25 thousandths head space and would not fire.
I can keep going but you'll think I work for Uberti ;D
Howdy;
When first forming cases for a friend's Chaparral .45-75 I was concerned about a "ring" around the case about .125" below the bottom of the shoulder. I was further concerned when I tried forming a longer case using a Bullseye and cornmeal load that allowed a little of the extra long case to expand into the actual bore hoping to be able to make true "full length" cases/
I only tried that with one case, since the reformed .348 Win case still had an "hourglass" appearance where the lower part was too tough to expand with that small amount of pressure. I really didn't like what I saw at the case mouth. I had formed unevenly, looking like it had been cut on an angle, and one side showed the beginning of the rifleing lands while the other didn't.
Decided to get some Cerrosafe and make a chamber cast. This is what I found! http://tinyurl.com/34mba9
You can see the dark ring below the bottom of the shoulder in a few of the shots. That's a .007" "jump", caused IMO by a chip getting caught on one of the reamer flutes.
At the case mouth area you can see that there is a very pronounced leade into the rifleing on one side and just the beginnings of the mouth cut opposite that. To top it off, the mouth area of the chamber is .007" LARGER than the bottom of the neck. Seems to me like at least the ring from the reamer wobble would have showed up with only the use of the No 1 Mk 1 Optical Comapritor, (i.e., the Ol' Eyeball) before the barrel was screwed into the receiver. Rifle is now sitting at Charter Arms awaiting a new barrel. Anybody have any idea of turnaround time?
So far the only other problems that have surfaced have been the mentioned forward movement of the magazine tube and that piece of junk they put on for a rear sight.
Hopefully the rifle will come back a "shooter" since that's a lOT of money to tie up in a "wallhanger".
Thanks for "listening".
Yance
Wonderful Western North Carolina
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Yance
Sorry to hear of your problems! If the SASS wire hadn't deleted every post that was written expressing these problems, I'm sure fewer people would have had to endure them :-[
I purchased brass from "Charter 2000", it was their test fire brass and the circus involved with them actually getting me what was promised and when is a whole 'nother SAGA ::). But, I think I have some of the brass used to test fire the above mentioned rifle (or there are a lot more cut the same way)! I would say that 3 otta every 10 or so fired cases had been fired in some atrocious chamber. Believe me Quality Control was an OXYMORON with the rifles assembled there ;)
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Well fellers, Tuesday will be 4 weeks my buddy's rifle has been at Charter with no word on progress.
Guess I should give them a holler sometime Monday to see if anyone's even seen it.
Those of you who have returned rifles to Charter for repair or replacement, what kind of turnaround time have you been seeing?
Thanks
Yance (Headed to Texas next week for a little lead slingin' and R&R)
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Well I should have listened to all the people here before buying a Chaparrel. When I received my rifle it had a very loose forend, somthing I could live with I guess. Upon closer inspection there was a large crack running with the grain on the pistol grip and the bolt lip was ground off. I called the dealer that I received the rifle from and he stated that I needed to call Charter. So I called charter and got a very tired sounding male who informed me that the rifle didn't leave the factory that way and I would have to take it up with the dealer. Funny it was new in the box, wrap and grease when it arrived. After a bit of explanation about me alresdy calling them, he said that it sounded like someone (not at the factory) really screwed up the rifle and took my name and phone number that was six weeks ago and still no reply. Good news is a friend offered me his original 1876 to me for $1000.00 so I wont EVER be buying anything from Charter again, not because of the rifle but because of the complete lack of customer service form Charter
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Yance,
Turn around time on my rifle was about a month and a half. I sent it on 1-8-08 and they shipped it back 2-20-08.
It is an NWMP carbine in 45-75 that had excessive headspace and an incorrect chamber that appeard that have been reamed much, much too deep. Firing a cartridge moved the shoulder forward about 3/16".
After it's return, the chamber is correct and the headspace is so tight that I had to thin the rims of my 348 Win cases to 0.059". I would say that they put a new barrel on it as the barrel is a full 22" long and wouldn't be so if they had set the original barrel back and rechambered it.
I functions and shoots properly now and I am in the process of working up a new load and breaking in the new barrel.
One thing about their return shipping is that they didn't advise me when it was shipped back. I eMailed them asking the status and they advised that it had been shipped several days before and was in transit. You have to keep on them to get the info out of them that you want. I don't know if they are just so overloaded with warranty work that they don't keep the customers advised or if their policy is not to generate info but just reply to inquiries.
HHW
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I fired my Chapparel NWMP Carbine for the first time last week. I used a modest load of HERCO under an EPP/UGG to form my .348 cases.
The diameter of fired case necks is .488 to .493
Reloaded GOEX FF with .457 dia Lyman 457192 (Gould), the diameter is .480
Is this TEN THOU clearance at the neck proper?
Has anyone had dimensional difficulties with LEE .45-75 dies?
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I fired my Chapparel NWMP Carbine for the first time last week. I used a modest load of HERCO under an EPP/UGG to form my .348 cases.
The diameter of fired case necks is .488 to .493
Reloaded GOEX FF with .457 dia Lyman 457192 (Gould), the diameter is .480
Is this TEN THOU clearance at the neck proper?
Has anyone had dimensional difficulties with LEE .45-75 dies?
Sir Charles,
There have been problems with some of the Lee dies. Check John Boy's post on this thread.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,19552.0.html
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The out of box problems with my 45-60, 28" barrel Chaparral were :
PROBLEM SOLUTION
Ammo sticking in mag. where tube meets receiver Deburred receiver
Half cock way too high Dremmel tool
Lever spring not properly engaged Re-contoured bearing point on lever
Cartridge elevator would not snap return but hung up Re-contoured elevator lever where spring bears
Flats on front half of barrel had "dips" in 3 places Turned barrel to half round(*my original plan)
You can see my rifle on posts on SHORTENING A '76 RIFLE
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Sir Charles ... there were problems with the Lyman dies ... not the Lee. I use the Lee die set and no problems. If yours are out of spec's call Lee Precision and ask for Pat. All their dies come with a 2 year warranty ...
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Sir Charles ... there were problems with the Lyman dies ... not the Lee. I use the Lee die set and no problems. If yours are out of spec's call Lee Precision and ask for Pat. All their dies come with a 2 year warranty ...
Opps! :-[ Ah heck, I knew that. I was just checking to make sure you was on the job, John! ;D
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I emailed Pat earlier today. A few months ago, when I foresaw the problem, she had suggested "Ball Sizing" my dies to increase them about .003. That doesn't sound like enough.
I love LEE dies. The .44-40 dies are reputed to be the best dimensioned, and mine work very well. My .45-70 dies work the brass minimally, just enough so the brass fits both my Pedersoli Sharps & BLR src.
BTW what is the correct length for my .45-75 cases after all is said & done? Now they are 2.91", and just cover the driving band of the Gould bullet, after one case-forming shot. Oal of 2.30" just runs though the loading cycle of my Chapparal. Is that right, or should I shorten them to 2.25"?
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I emailed Pat earlier today. A few months ago, when I foresaw the problem, she had suggested "Ball Sizing" my dies to increase them about .003. That doesn't sound like enough.
I love LEE dies. The .44-40 dies are reputed to be the best dimensioned, and mine work very well. My .45-70 dies work the brass just enough so the brass fits both my Pedersoli Sharps & BLR src.
BTW what is the correct length for my .45-75 cases after all is said & done? Now they are 2.91", and just cover the driving band of the Gould bullet, after one cases forming shot. Oal of 2.30" just runs though the loading cycle of my Chapparal. Is that right, or should I shorten them to 2.25"?
The correct length for the 45-75 case is 1.89. The original factory OAL of the 45-75 is 2.25 on the example I have. :)
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Grizz:
just a note here. According to Ken Howell who wrote "designing and forming Custom Cartridge Cases", he stated that the correct case length should be 1.885" which is close to what you stated. Nonte said 1.88" and the one cartridge that I have was made by UMC and it is 1.868 inches. I make all mine to be 1.88". That original case OAL is 2.251". I seat mine just a "smidge" under that mainly because of the shape of the bullet. The dies that I use are LEE dies and I don't FL just neck size only. Don't know if this is of any use to you guys but there it is. ;)
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Grizz:
just a note here. According to Ken Howell who wrote "designing and forming Custom Cartridge Cases", he stated that the correct case length should be 1.885" which is close to what you stated. Nonte said 1.88" and the one cartridge that I have was made by UMC and it is 1.868 inches. I make all mine to be 1.88". That original case OAL is 2.251". I seat mine just a "smidge" under that mainly because of the shape of the bullet. The dies that I use are LEE dies and I don't FL just neck size only. Don't know if this is of any use to you guys but there it is. ;)
Thanks, Larryo. Great information. I was unaware the Kenny H had written a book on forming custom cartridges! I know him only in the context of the conversion revolvers and cylinders that he has produced! .......but I don't get out much! ;D
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Well, after about 6 weeks Charter 2000 shipped "a" rifle back to me.
At first I was excited/disappointed that it was a totally new rifle rather than the one I'd sent. No harm really since I'd not done anything to the action itself.
When I delivered it to its rightful owner he said, "That's nice, but mine was a 28" barrel, not a 26". BAHHH!!!!!!
Been right at 2 months now since I called Nick to report the mistake and after checking manufacturing and shipping records he agreed that it was a 28" but had been logged in as a 26" when received. ???
I've already made two more calls checking on progress, but it seems that there have been no 28" barrels coming out of Italy.
I'll make another call today and plan to be put off and disappointed again.
The saga continues. >:(
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Well, after about 6 weeks Charter 2000 shipped "a" rifle back to me.
When I delivered it to its rightful owner he said, "That's nice, but mine was a 28" barrel, not a 26". BAHHH!!!!!!
Bummer! :'(
I know that a fella has a right to the barrel length he wants, but if that replacement was right in all other respects, I think I would be tempted to say, "good enough.!" :D
Hope Nick makes it right, and does so in a timely manner.
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I bought a Chaparral 1876 in .45-75 about a month ago and just got the ammunition last week. So today was my day to take it out for some shooting. I had the same problem that several others here have mentioned: I pulled the trigger, but no bang. The hammer is not hitting the center of the primer. Only 4 fired out of the first 9 I tried; given what I had read here, I figured it didn't make any sense to keep on trying. Too late to call the shop where I bought it anymore today, so I will do that tomorrow. I'm just wondering if this is something I should try to have fixed locally? I like the gun, and she sure is a beauty, now if only she would do what I was paying her to do...
I will say this, though: it sure was fun those 4 times it worked! I had to settle for shooting my Uberti 1866 (old reliable!) and then the beaten-up .32 auto I got when I bought the Chaparral. THAT was fun! And cheap, compared to the .45-75 and even the .44-40.
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Hi, i’ve had many problems with Chaparrall sights, pins, who fall down :o. Pins of toggle action who’s made too small and also side plate opening when gun fire.
Also i buyed for me two Uberti i’ve one in 45-75wcf who shoot great and now a new one in 50-95 wcf who are twice more expensive but without problems. :)
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No probs so far with my Cimarron/Uberti, except the rear sight is a hair left fo centre.
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It has been almost two weeks since I wrote to Charter Arms and I have heard nothing from them about my problem (not even an acknowledement of receiving my complaint). Given what others have written here, am I to take it that this is SOP for them? Any suggestions as to whom I might contact about fixing this on my own? Thanks.
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It has been almost two weeks since I wrote to Charter Arms and I have heard nothing from them about my problem (not even an acknowledement of receiving my complaint). Given what others have written here, am I to take it that this is SOP for them? Any suggestions as to whom I might contact about fixing this on my own? Thanks.
Discouraging. :( Check your bolt face. Does it have the small lip (cartridge rim support) on the bottom? Sometimes it is missing on the Chappies.
Check this post, which has pictures of both the original and the Uberti. Reply #30.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17987.30.html
If that's the problem, I would call those boys and tell them to send you a new bolt.
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It has been almost two weeks since I wrote to Charter Arms and I have heard nothing from them about my problem (not even an acknowledement of receiving my complaint). Given what others have written here, am I to take it that this is SOP for them? Any suggestions as to whom I might contact about fixing this on my own? Thanks.
Been a week and a half since my last e-mail to Nick. Still no reply.
I need to give them another call and this time try to talk directly to Chris who handles the repairs.
The times iIve talked to Nick it's always been..."We've got another shipment coming in about two weeks", and the time I talked to Terry, (shop boss) it was "7-10 days and we'll have it out".
Hard to believe that Chaparral Italy hasn't made any 28" barrels in the past 5+ months. They HAVE managed to roll out their 1873 copy, and the Model P release is close at hand.
Seems like they could take care of folks who already OWN their product. Don't think I'd gamble my $$ on a repeat purchase of a Chaparral product with this kind of customer "SERVICE?".
A bit disillusioned? Yup!
My 2¢
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Grizzly,
Man, are you good! The bottom lip on hte bolt face is practically non-existent. I hope it is as simple as that! Thanks a load!!!
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Well, I called and got a replacement bolt. But I was having a devil of a time finding a gunsmith to work on the gun. Finally found one in the area but he was unfamiliar with this type of gun (has been in the business only a year or so -- retired Air Force guy). So he wanted to do some reading and studying before working on my Chaparral. He finished it up a week ago Saturday; I picked it up Monday of last week. He had not fired it -- didn't want to use my expensive bullets, he said. So, Friday (I am a pastor and Friday is my one day off each week) I went out to shoot. As soon as I step out of my truck at the range, the sheriff's department pulls up and asks if I am a pastor. I say yes; he says my wife called them to find me as there has been an accident and one of my parishioners has died. The family needs me right away (the lady was struck by a semi-truck as she crossed the street walking to work!). I have been tied up with that ever since. The funeral is this afternoon. I have another parishioner dying of cancer; he could go any day now. I am hoping that I can get out this Friday. I really want to know if the work was successful. I am almost $1000 into this gun, have had it for almost 3 months, and still can't shoot!
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Well, I called and got a replacement bolt. But I was having a devil of a time finding a gunsmith to work on the gun. Finally found one in the area but he was unfamiliar with this type of gun (has been in the business only a year or so -- retired Air Force guy). So he wanted to do some reading and studying before working on my Chaparral. He finished it up a week ago Saturday; I picked it up Monday of last week. He had not fired it -- didn't want to use my expensive bullets, he said. So, Friday (I am a pastor and Friday is my one day off each week) I went out to shoot. As soon as I step out of my truck at the range, the sheriff's department pulls up and asks if I am a pastor. I say yes; he says my wife called them to find me as there has been an accident and one of my parishioners has died. The family needs me right away (the lady was struck by a semi-truck as she crossed the street walking to work!). I have been tied up with that ever since. The funeral is this afternoon. I have another parishioner dying of cancer; he could go any day now. I am hoping that I can get out this Friday. I really want to know if the work was successful. I am almost $1000 into this gun, have had it for almost 3 months, and still can't shoot!
My father was a pastor, and I know the dedication it takes - it's a vocation with no schedule. Hope things will allow you an afternoon to shot your 76. God bless you and the ministry you provide to folks. :)
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Hi Guys
Back for the void. don't know where to post this so I will put it here.
I had to cancel my uberti as it still had not come in and was informed could be another year or more.
But there is a guy who is selling Chaparrals in Canada. i asked if he would hand pick one of me.
Checking for cartridge lip firing pin hole so on. yes he would and i have a month to return it to him.
Now the Chaparral is $600 cheaper than the Uberti so can use that for any tweaking i mite wont or need to do
So am I nuts or what
Neil.
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Hi Guys
Back for the void. don't know where to post this so I will put it here.
I had to cancel my uberti as it still had not come in and was informed could be another year or more.
But there is a guy who is selling Chaparrals in Canada. i asked if he would hand pick one of me.
Checking for cartridge lip firing pin hole so on. yes he would and i have a month to return it to him.
Now the Chaparral is $600 cheaper than the Uberti so can use that for any tweaking i mite wont or need to do
So am I nuts or what
Neil.
Good luck, Neil. At least is sounds like your dealing with a fella that will understand if you need to send it back. The good news is that Chappies do seem to have good barrels and most shoot very well. :)
This is the first report I have heard of a supply shortage with the Uberti 76. Are you in Canada?
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Hi Griz
Yes I live in B.C. all the dealers i found had the same story. only one importer in Canada and at least a one year waiting list.
On top of the year i have all ready waited.
O well at least the Chapps. have made it here
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Hello the mountains, :D
From over here in the flatland, ;D
There seems to be two Chaparral suppliers here in Canada. Marstar http://www.marstar.ca/gf-Chaparral/index.shtm and Doc Rowlands if you want a NWMP carbine http://www.oldwestguns.ca/products/category.php?id_category=71 . I purchased my NWMP carbine from south of the medicine line before these options were available (at the same time as Rattlesnake Jack and Sir Charles deMoutonBlack) so I haven't dealt with either of them on this. Now as to what they they have in stock......... that is another matter.
Cheers
Icebox
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HI Icebox
Thanks it was Marstar i was talking to and the rifle is in stock don't know about the NWMP Carbine.
I have not talked to Doc Rowland so don't know what he has. i was after a rifle but the more i look at the NWMP Carbine ???
I am waffling.
Thanks
Neil P.S. Ma & Pa used to be flatlanders
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Well, I finally got to take out my Chaparral 1876 yesterday. Took the dogs for a long walk through the woods, then over to the Sportsmen's Park to shoot. First round misfired, then fired after I levered it out and tried it again. Same with the second. But then the next 4 had no problems. Then the rain came and my day was done. So, I am hopeful but not completely convinced that my problems have been solved. I will say this: when it shoots, this gun does a nice job -- better than I usually do!
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If your fired case looks like the one on the left instead of looking like the one on the right, send the rifle back to Chaparral :'(
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/buckoff123/100_0581.jpg)
My Cimarron 1876 Uberti 45-75 exhibits this same problem. The shoulder in the chamber is .100 to deep. As of today the issue is Cimarron will not fix it, stating that the chamber is within spec. In all my years of collecting, shooting and gun work since the late 1960s I have never seen such a chamber like this that can be stated as in spec. This condition is unsafe because the chamber is so sharp where the shoulder meets the neck as to almost cut the neck off the fired case. I will have to fix this at my own expense and unfortunately cannot recommend the 45-75 Cimarron Uberti 1876 to any potential buyer until they rectify this issue and fix the defective rifles already sold.
One additional note: Instead of fixing the faulty chamber CH4D now makes reloading dies especially for the Cimarron Uberti 1876. I do not think this is a very professional way of doing business because when I purchased my 1876 in July 2007, the dies were not available nor was any mention of the use of a different chamber from original Winchesters. So instead of fixing the faulty chambers they have a die set made to accommodate it instead.
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Here are a pair of pictures of older 45/75 cartridges for reference.
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My Cimarron 1876 Uberti 45-75 exhibits this same problem. The shoulder in the chamber is .100 to deep. As of today the issue is Cimarron will not fix it, stating that the chamber is within spec. In all my years of collecting, shooting and gun work since the late 1960s I have never seen such a chamber like this that can be stated as in spec. This condition is unsafe because the chamber is so sharp where the shoulder meets the neck as to almost cut the neck off the fired case. I will have to fix this at my own expense and unfortunately cannot recommend the 45-75 Cimarron Uberti 1876 to any potential buyer until they rectify this issue and fix the defective rifles already sold.
One additional note: Instead of fixing the faulty chamber CH4D now makes reloading dies especially for the Cimarron Uberti 1876. I do not think this is a very professional way of doing business because when I purchased my 1876 in July 2007, the dies were not available nor was any mention of the use of a different chamber from original Winchesters. So instead of fixing the faulty chambers they have a die set made to accommodate it instead.
I looked into this situation, and according to CH4D, there IS difference between the chamber on the Uberti and the Wnchester 1876. I am awaiting further information in regards to the specifics. In brief, the dies for the original 45-75 are based on the 1910 factory drawings. The Uberti chamber is apparently based on a CIP spec. No sure what that is exactly, but it seems to be European. I am still digging for more information. Will post more when I know more.
In any case, if anyone is having trouble with factory or reloads chambering in their Uberti, then CH4D has the Uberti spec dies. Another solution would be to neck size when reloading. This may also apply to the Chaparral version.
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Good luck with Mike Harvey and Cimarron Arms. If there is any problem with their products , the problem is you. After having the accuracy problems with my Cimarron 76, and going through all the bulls..t with Harvey, my dealer ate the Cimarron and replaced my 76 with a Uberti-76 straight from Stoeger. I know they are all Uberti's whether they are Taylors, Cimarron or Stoeger. The Stoeger -Uberti 76 has performed exceedingly well. Mike Harvey-Cimarron is only interested in SELLING you the firearm, not BACKING it. My dealer will not deal with Harvey-Cimarron under any circumstances, and when specifically asked to order a Cimarron fiream, has refused. But, he will gladly order from Stoeger or Taylors.
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On my first Chaparral, a .40-60, the hammer would catch in the half cock notch if the trigger were squeezed instead of jerked, the side plates were too short to reach their corresponding dovetails in the frame and one of them was bowed out in the middle, head space was such that most rounds required two or more hammer strikes to set 'em off, and the thing was horribly inaccurate - I tried eight different bullet weights/styles, both cast and jacketed, as well as a dozen smokeless powders and black powder, and still the bullets were tumbling completely sideways at the the fifteen yard line. The bore slugged .406" & cast bullets were appropriately sized. For jacketed bullets, I used .410" .41 mag bullets swaged down to .406". Fifty yard "groups" were in excess of eight feet with all combinations! After a few emails back & forth to Nick, the rifle was eventually replaced with a .45-75 at my request. Rifle #2 had a whole host of other fun & entertaining problems; cartridges wouldn't extract, the extractor groove in the barrel was so far off, the extractor hit the edge of it when the bolt closed, ill-fitting side plates, ridiculously rough bore, and accuracy only marginally better than rifle #1. It, too, was returned and replaced yet again with another .45-75. Rifle #3 is workable, and even won me 2nd place at the Montana State CAS Championship long range side match this year, with 7/10 hits on steel plates out to 425 yards. (Two of my three misses were on that tiny 425 yard plate, but I nailed it once anyway.)
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Based on the age of the last post (Nov 2008)... maybe 2 things have happened:
1. Folks are not buying and shooting many '76 replicas much anymore
2. Quality Control on the replicas has improved
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An interesting observation John Boy, I hope more of number two is the correct answer but lots of fokes seem to have shifted their resources to ARs and such since that date, indicating number one might be the right answer. I want one of the Uberti rifles real bad but will wait ever how long it takes for them to get it right. I do find the opinions on Cimmaron to be disturbing as they used to really try to make the customer happy.
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I got a 28" 45-60 for $720 shipped. Finally got brass Monday and took it out yesterday. The rifle functioned and shot fine. The rear sight leaves a lot to be desired but my eye also no longer can focus on both sights and the target so a peep sight is in the plans.
The finish could be smoother but for the money I'm happy.
SR
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Gents
I'm a newbie to the forum though have been shooting, reloading and collecting many decades now. My birthday is in a few days and my bride of many years said I could have a new rifle as her birthday present. So I was all set to buy a replica of the '76 Winchester 45-60 and started looking for advice. After reading through these and some other forum posts I'm not sure I want to get one anymore given the many issues you've all raised.
Still, I thought I'd ask if recent experience with recent manufactured rifles would fare better? I'm right on the edge of retirement and pension income so I don't want to get into buying the rifle twice by fixing what a manufacturer should do.
So, am I better to go with a Uberti? Are there any indications that above say serial # xxxx(?) the issues have been fixed? I would use my surplus 45-70 brass with a trim die and would like to use some of the 8Lb can of SR4759 along with some Hornady 300 gr and cast 375 gr. I've seen some mentions on 45-70 rims being to thick for headspacing and putting stress on the toggle bolt. My brass is Remington and have seen some suggestions that Starline brass was a better match... any truth to that?
The rifle would be just for fun and maybe a try on a mulie.
As you can see from my handle, I'm a TCR collector and have a number of barrels in oboslete calibers and forming brass, so I'm not entirely new in loading obsolete calibers.
Appreciate any advice.
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TCRken,
Just a few observations, and some tried and true advice to ponder. I wanted a '76 for years. Been to many gun shows and gun shops through out the west and handled quite a few Chaparrals and a few Ubertis - as well as originals. The Ubertis were decent, the Chapparals were rough. Again, just my experience. Then the calibers. I reload extensively, but as I'm sure you know it'll be a considerable expense to get set up. Then, the deal breaker for me was the weight. This beautiful design is a real log to tote around. I don't shoot matches, my main passion is hunting. After much deliberation and research and hand wringing I picked up a really nice new Uberti '73, straight stock, cresent butt, 24" oct. barrel in 44WCF (44-40). This gun is not light, but very manageable. Last year we took two antelope, a huge mulie and a late season big whitetail buck with winchester brass loaded w/ GOEX 3F and soft 209 gr. flat nose SPG lubed bullets. All shots over 130 yds, all completely penentrated the boiler room and kept going out the other side. All down within a few yards. 44-40 is easy to load, cheap components, accurate. It is also deadly. I'm really glad I went w/ the '73 now. If you really want a '76, go for it, they certainly are a neat gun with great history behind them, but if you are feeling you need the power of the 45-60 or 45-75 (or the 50-95 cannon round!) for deer, you really don't. Don't know where you live, assuming the west since you mentioned mulies, but if you are going to go after elk too, that's a different story.
Hope this little bit of insight from actual experience helps. Good luck!
shieldsmt
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FWIW - I biought an Uberti in .50-95 last November from Taylors & Co. I went to their shop and picked out the one I wanted. Actually they all looked fine, so it was hard to choose. Now that I've had it 9+ months and shot 300-400 rounds through it I can say that it is flawless and I couldn't be happier. Beautiful rifle, smooth action, nice trigger pull, cycles, fires and ejects perfectly.
My advice is to buy the best you can afford from a reputable dealer. Taylors folks are top notch and go the extra mile to see that you are satisfied.
BTW, what is a TCR ??? I'm guessin' it doesn't shoot black powder and lead bullets or I'd a heard about it ;)
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Gents
Thanks for the response.
Re: 44WCF, yep, I've got a early '94 Marlin carbine in 44WCF and have carried it for deer. It's light and short and fun to shoot with a shotgun butt instead of the CB. Some younger hunters ask why I use these old obsolete calibers. I guess I've gotten past the trophy want when I was young and enjoy the challenge of getting a bit closer and using the old ones. Only problem is my eyes are making it a bit harder with the open sights. One advantage of the Marlin's is I can mount a scope, but before anyone gets excited on ruining a collectable it's only on the newer ones where I've had them rebarreled.
re: west. Yep, Colorado.
As for why a '76, I guess it goes back to when I was a young guy with a growing family and saw one in the rack for more than I made in a month. Always wanted one (never had the $$ for an original). After I got my '86 light weight in 33 WCF I thought I was done adding to my collection of "wants" when my bride made the offer.
re: TCR, it's a monoblock hammerless break action single shot that Thompson Center made in the 80's & up to the fire in '91 when the tooling machinery was lost in the fire. The '83 had a set triger, the '87 was a single trigger. The barrel just lifted off the hinge pin as an break actionshotgun does. It was available in many calibers and gauges and the custom shop would chamber most anything. I forget when they made the "magnum" monoblock when you could get a 7MM Rem Mag & such. I never wanted a magnum as the rifle was light and it would have been more pain than fun. Do a google search and you can see info on them.
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I just picked up an 1876 Chappy from CDNN, 50-95wcf, 26" barrel. Outwardly, I am pleased with it.. I havent had the chance to take it to the range quite yet.. Ive only recently obtained a set of RCBS dies, brass (Jamison...which seems outwardly to be of high quality;correct headstamped!,) and a 515139 Lyman mold...
The only problems I have seen yet regarding my Chappy is that no one seems to have been able to give you any solid information on specs... specificallly, I ordered a Marbles tang... the rear tang screw wasnt even close... I took the orginial to a machine shop who told me that it was 12-28 pitch... Marbles makes such a screw (abit too long...) for the 1894 Winchester Legacy, and I had to grind several thousandths off to make it work. Prior to obtaining the screw, I attempted to contact Chapparal, in Italy, as they have no US service reps... and the attempt was less than successful.
Aside from the problems with the tang sight install (which ended up well...though with the marbles base, there is no place for my thumb!) the trigger is an abomination.. not only do you have the squeeze the lever so hard to activate the lever safety that your knuckles are white, the trigger which has no overtravel or take up (a good thing...) has about a 15 pound pull, no exagguration! Its horrible.
The other day I casted up about 50 bullets, I am still unsure as to what sizing die to pick up yet.. I am thinking .512, but I am not sure. I am going to try a load recommended by Chuck 100yd on here and on the Castboolits forum to which I belong: 14g Trailboss under the above mentioned boolit. Ill let everyone know how she shoots when I take her out..
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I bought my 1876 from Cimarron, via Buffalo Arms, a few months ago. It is a standard model in 45-60. The internal components required a little bit of stoning, as did the inside of the receiver itself. I made some cartridges using information in the latest Lyman handbook. The Jamison brass chambered without a hitch. The RCBS Legacy dies are a real bargain for a quality set. She is a tack driver, for sure! The underside of the barrel is channeled for the magazine tube. I understand that there are some rifles out there without this feature. The wood is very nice with a flawless finish and fitment to the receiver. Aside from the parts roughness, I have no complaints. The rear sight is quite functional, but there is a bit too much daylight on each side of the front sight when looking for a 'proper sight picture'. My eyes really like tang sights, so I will be getting one from Buffalo Arms soon. They have a Riflesmith sight made for the Uberti 1876. Cheers!
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Greetings, All!
Well, for starters, my "Chapp. / Tri-Star" 1876 26"Bbl. in .50-95-300 wouldn't feed from the magazine. Period. I sent it back, and they replaced the Breech Bolt, the Loading Gate, and another part that I do not recall. It cycles / feeds beautifully with several of the .50 bullets that I cast for.
The folks were very polite, communication was great, and all that I need to do is fireform some .348 WCF brass, and touch off a handful of BP rounds loaded with Bertram brass (All that I could find at the time...) to warm things up.
Oh... This problem I failed to mention to them: the Rear Sight Dovetail is cut slightly cock-eyed. The Factory Sight is going away, to be replaced with a Buffalo Arms Buckhorn Rear Sight, after my 'smith "straightens" the dovetail cut in the barrel. I'm not too bent about the Rear Sight situation, as I have another U.S. made rifle with the same problem, just not acute enough to do anything about.
Be Well, All!
M.T.Marfield
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I just received my Chaparral Winchester 1866 yellow boy in .357 mag, 24.25" bbl from Marstar. The fit and finish is excellent, the indentations on the primers are deep and centered. I was shooting .357 cases with 158 gr LRN....worked everytime. .38 spl must exceed 1.49" OAL. The action was a little stiff at first however, it has slicked out after about 20 rds. Great gun right out of the box.
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I just received my Chaparral Winchester 1866 yellow boy in .357 mag, 24.25" bbl from Marstar. The fit and finish is excellent, the indentations on the primers are deep and centered. I was shooting .357 cases with 158 gr LRN....worked everytime. .38 spl must exceed 1.49" OAL. The action was a little stiff at first however, it has slicked out after about 20 rds. Great gun right out of the box.
Thanks for the post on your Chappie 1866. Does the rifle have a steel receiver with brass plating, or is it brass like the Uberti? Got a pic? ;D
GA
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Main spring too weak, had it replaced and now works fine!
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Main spring too weak, had it replaced and now works fine!
Uberti or Chappie? :)
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I have a Chaparral in 45/75. I took it completely apart when I got it. It was very clean inside, and while not a good as my original it was really very nice. It shoots as well or better than the original, and after using emery cloth and buffing the links and bolt it is very slick. I hate the rear site. The front site was loose so I re soldered it and it is fine now. I purchased the tang rear site put it on and took it off. I will replace the rear site, and use the tang site on something else or sell it. I used the recommendations by OKDEE. Good fit just not for me. I use H4831 powder 46-50 grains and 350 grain bullet. I read about the guy who wondered what size of swaging die for 50-95. I don't size. Just mold and shoot. The rifle swages better than I do. My lead is a little hard, but groups about 4-5 inches at 100 yards. I use Lee tumble lube, alox. Works good. I wish the wood was better and the rear site was better, but my original has a Marbles rear buckhorn site and it worked for GrandPa.
I like my Chaparrel. With better wood it would be a great rifle. Please remember that when you read about things that are wrong, people who love the rifle rarely write letters, people who have problems usually write several.
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I have had four Uberti lever action Rifles and one pump action Lightning by ASM. Both my 1866s the 1873 and my Henry (All from Uberti)were smooth and function well out of the box. The AMS Colt Lightning in 38Spl worked good if I didn't pump it fast. I was faster than the action it seemed and it stove piped the rounds. I sold it to a fellow who had some work done and it worked fine for him he said but he sold it also. I want a Chaparral 1876 in 45-60 but I have been scared off of it by all the problems I read about but the price is tempting at under $700.00 now.
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I want a Chaparral 1876 in 45-60 but I have been scared off of it by all the problems I read about but the price is tempting at under $700.00 now.
The bitterness of a bargain remains longer than the sweetness. ;) Be advised that there are NO parts on this side of the pond for the Chappie.
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Grizzly
I think Marstar out of Canada is importing them now ??? Do you have any information on this ?
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Grizzly
I think Marstar out of Canada is importing them now ??? Do you have any http://www.marstar.ca/gf-Chaparral/index.shtm on this ?
Did a search and came up with this: http://www.marstar.ca/gf-Chaparral/index.shtm
It appears that Chaparral is making a number is arms, Including an blued, iron frame 1866 which "is a faithful replica of the early production 1866 which featured an iron receiver and as a result was blued...." :o
If I had a Chappie, I think I would give these folks a call and see it they are stocking parts. That would be good news for lots of folks! ;D
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I'm in late on this, but it's relevant none the less. My Uberti has a dead soft uppper trigger which wore rapidly and failed causing the hammer to fall on cocking, always an exciting situation. I have had this gun for probably 3 years and only had a couple sesions with it.....as it broke down it got put away for a while. I bought a new upper trigger from VTI and of coarse lost it somewhere in our move last year. I plan on casenit'ing the existing too soft upper trigger and hope it works.
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I'm in late on this, but it's relevant none the less. My Uberti has a dead soft uppper trigger which wore rapidly and failed causing the hammer to fall on cocking, always an exciting situation. I have had this gun for probably 3 years and only had a couple sesions with it.....as it broke down it got put away for a while. I bought a new upper trigger from VTI and of coarse lost it somewhere in our move last year. I plan on casenit'ing the existing too soft upper trigger and hope it works.
it worked ;D
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I have both the Uberti Centennial 1876 in 45-60 and a Chaparral 1876 also in 45-60. Both of these rifles are in the 28" barrel configuration. As they come ROB there is no comparison... the Uberti is light years ahead of the Chaparral as far as looks and craftmanship. But there is a LARGE price difference also, you get what you pay for. As far as the shooting... BOTH are the same, the Chaparral shoots just as good as the Uberti. When you disassemble these two rifles and look at the way they are made... then you see the BIG DIFFERENCE, kinda like drinking... some like scotch, some like Jack. Laugh The company that made the Chaparral it looks like they took shortcuts, whereas Uberti did not. I tried to see if parts were interchangable Uberti to Chaparral. The trigger parts seem to interchange but the other parts i.e., brass elevator, firing pin extension, bolt, hammer, lever, elevator follower arm would not interchange. The Uberti brass elevator will fit in the opening but will not work due to the way Uberti designed it vs the way Chaparral designed theirs. The Elevator Spring and the Lever Spring will work, at least it does in mine. My Chaparral looks as good as my Uberti NOW... but that is AFTER I refinished the wood stocks and forearm stock. ROB the Chaparral when levered sounded like an army tank running and it was HARD to lever and the trigger pull was way over 9 lbs. After much work on the action (a lot of sanding to weaken the springs, and sanding the cam on the lever, trigger spring had to remove a lot of metal to get the trigger pull down to a 2 lb pull) that solved the problem. Works great now. I did not have to do that to the Uberti, it was slick ROB. My opine: You get what you pay for. Do not expect the Chaparral's to look like the Uberti's when buying... there is about a $1000 dollar difference, depending on where you buy it. But looks is only skin deep. Kinda like lookin at a Rossi '92 vs a Uberti '73.
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I have a 28 in. 45-60 Uberti, after now about 200 rounds, I have no complaints. It seems to have gotten smoother after shooting, love it enough that I got it a little brother. A 1873 sporting in 45 colt, 24 1/4 in. barrel. I have tang sights on the way for both, Im not a competitor, nor do I play one on T.V. Just developed a new found appreciation, I was into the long range and ultra long range shooting gang for a long time.
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MarStar has an inventory of parts in Canada.
The bitterness of a bargain remains longer than the sweetness. ;) Be advised that there are NO parts on this side of the pond for the Chappie.
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Greetings folks, :)
I hope it is not to late to join into this very informative thread.
This week i bought a unfired Chaparral 1876 28inch in 45-60, from a German in Germany.
Barrel markings are: "Chaparral Charter 2000 Shelton C.T. IT DE 10" Serial no. W7606XX
After reading this thread i am in total panic, but after inspecting my 1876 i am much more relaxed ::)
1. Muzzle crown is absolutely sharp edged instaead of a phase, but should be ok
2. Front sight nicely made and correct alligned, however i changed to a Buffalo Beach Combination front side, which fits in the slot perfectly
3. Tube latch end does not fit in the barrel slot and the tube ring are loose in the barrel like many other Chappies
4. I use shortened starline 45-70 brass and i can not locate a head space issue so far.
5. Rear sight is realy junk and i have this air gap in the slot as well. I replaced the junk with a Lyman 16B folding leaf rear sight which fits perfectly.
6. The lever action is going acceptable for me, maybe i will polish the internal parts a bit.
7. I installed a Lyman no 2 tang peep sight for winchester and Browning replicas 1886 with no problems. It is true i have to find a new place for my thumb :-\
8. Wood appearance and fitting is not bad at all
9. Saturday is show time with 320grain lead bullet, BP swiss 2 and a thin card wad between, minimal compressed on 100 yards :D :D
Some first pictures:
If you like i keep you informed about my progress.
Mine has a pretty low serial no. concerning your experience it should be crap at all but it isnt...
regards from Bavaria
Tom
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I bought my Uberti Centennial 1976 in December 2013, and since then have fired over 500 rounds through it. My rifle functions flawlessly though I took Tom Horn's advice and replaced the lever safety spring, lightened the trigger spring, and the mainspring.
But it does have an issue - and a serious one at that...the barrel leads up destroying accuracy after only a few shots. I have gone through a regime of polishing the bore, casting bullets soft, medium, and hard, lubed with several mixtures settling on SPG, shooting a variety of powders including Swiss 1 1/2 Fg. When I clean the rifle, I feel a 'loose' spot about 8" up from the breech, and I suspect I'm getting gas cutting which leaves lead in my bore.
My current attempt to remedy this is to fire lap the bore using Wheeler Engineering compounds: 220, 320, and 600 griit. At the velocities this rifle likes (around 1200 fps), I don't think I should be getting any lead, yet here we are.
I'll let you know how I make out. Weather's mild enough to shoot the rifle tomorrow...
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Did you ever try the gas checks?
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No one makes a gas check bullet in 300 grain. So no, I haven't used them. Are you suggesting that I gas check my BACo459300 bullets?
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Belay that last post...found a nice RCBS double cavity 300 gr. gas-check bullet mound through Precision Reloading, and will order it ASAP. Now, regarding gas checks themselves...Lyman or Hornady? One better than the other.? Hornady is cheaper by a lot.
I've cleaned my rifle after fire lapping this morning. After 90 rounds without cleaning during the process, I had a very small amount of leading. But the bore is noticeably improved. Prior, the bottoms of the grooves were quite rough with longitudinal machining marks, and those are all but gone. Too, the edges of the rifling are far more polished than before. I can still feel the 'loose' spot but it feels less than before.
Now to load some more real ammo and try it again...
Oh, by the way, I re-crowned the muzzle while I was at it, using a ball bearing SS to a 1/4" rod in an electric drill turned slowly, and the lapping compounds.
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Hello Gabriel! I have been following your post about your difficulties with your barrel leading and most interesting the loose spot ! May I ask ,how many of each grit compound did you fire ? Was it more of the 220- 320 or the 600? Or equal amount of each I have no experience in fire lapping ,but have in the past had very good luck lapping rough bore rifles with valve grinding compound and a poured lead bore plug. Each time that a rifle bore was lapped in such a manner ,I saw great improvement in accuracy and the ease of clean-up .I hope you the best and look forward to see if the fire lapping has helped .,,,,,DT
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Hey Gabe,
I've never noticed a difference between the Hornady or the Lyman gas checks.
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Thanks for your thoughts guys. This is a process that is going to require the expenditure of some time, and a lot of patience. I will test the results of today's exercise with some of my best loads, and report on the outcome.
I know very well the benefits of actual lead lapping a rifle barrel, having been around muzzle loading rifles for a lifetime. I am not above disassembling my rifle and lapping the bore to remove the 'loose spot'. It actually feels like three little bumps when I run a tight patch down the bore.
I'm also going to run some jacketed bullets through the rifle, and some gas-checked bullets too, just to see what potential the rifle has. I have arguably the best sights one can acquire, and a stock that fits me wonderfully, so I have high hopes. My goal is to achieve 2 MOA accuracy with reliability.
I actually enjoyed the fire lapping shooting this morning...I needed something to shoot at just to make it interesting, so I picked a steel hanger (about the size of a robin) at 200 meteres, and blazed away at it offhand. I made an interesting mess in the snow all around the 'bird'. The weather here has been crazy warm...right at the freezing point, so I've been able to continue this exercise throughout the winter, when we usually have -35 C at this time of year, and obviously, no shooting. I understand the rest of the continent is not so fortunate.
And to answer the question (better late than not at all), I fired 30 rounds of each grit, letting the barrel cool often, but never cleaning throughout the process. I was amazed at how little lead fouling I had.
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A couple of people have had the barrels on their Uberti 1876s rupture. I think the rupture occurred about 8" from the receiver, but not positive about the location. Both shooter said there were no obstructions and the loads were mild. If you have the means to bore scope the barrel it may show a weak spot in the barrel. Just a thought.
Silver Rings
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The thought has occurred to me as well. I don't have access to a bore scope. But I checked out the serial numbers of the disaster rifles and compared it to mine, and mine is a much newer rifle with a far greater serial number. You'd think that for $1800 CDN, you'd get a rifle with a decent barrel, wouldn't you?
I have tested the rifle again, after fire lapping the bore yesterday morning. I loaded 50 rounds with 14 gr. Trail Boss and BACo's 459300 bullet: 15 rounds in pure lead, left over from the lapping exercise, and 35 bullets in B 12.1 alloy, about wheel weight hardness. After the first est with pure lead, I ran a dry patch through, and got no lead, then a patch wet with lead removing solution, and got the finest little dust of lead, but nothing like I had got previously. I then fired 15 more rounds at a new target, using the harder lead, and got a pretty decent target at 50 meters...less than 2" and in the black. So I continued to fire the rifle with these loads at 100 meters until I had shot off the entire 50 rounds without cleaning thoroughly. when I got home, I cleaned the bore, and again came up with some very fine lead dust, but nothing to write home about. The fire lapping certainly did polish the bore, and made a profound difference in both the accuracy, and the ease of cleaning.
More testing to follow...
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Ive finally gotten around to making brass and shooting my .45-70 1876 RCMP Chappy src. My problem is the headspace is too tight. Using a feeler gauge i get .059, the head thickness on a 45-60 is supposed to be .063. Ive trimmed the bases of a few RP cases down to .058 which eliminates the headstamp with the primer still below flush. I would need to go to .056 to have no resistance when i close the lever. Other than that and some stiffness when cycling the rifle is fine. The wood to metal fit is good and the finish is ok. I think i will enjoy shooting it when it breaks in.
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The thought has occurred to me as well. I don't have access to a bore scope. But I checked out the serial numbers of the disaster rifles and compared it to mine, and mine is a much newer rifle with a far greater serial number. You'd think that for $1800 CDN, you'd get a rifle with a decent barrel, wouldn't you?
I have tested the rifle again, after fire lapping the bore yesterday morning. I loaded 50 rounds with 14 gr. Trail Boss and BACo's 459300 bullet: 15 rounds in pure lead, left over from the lapping exercise, and 35 bullets in B 12.1 alloy, about wheel weight hardness. After the first est with pure lead, I ran a dry patch through, and got no lead, then a patch wet with lead removing solution, and got the finest little dust of lead, but nothing like I had got previously. I then fired 15 more rounds at a new target, using the harder lead, and got a pretty decent target at 50 meters...less than 2" and in the black. So I continued to fire the rifle with these loads at 100 meters until I had shot off the entire 50 rounds without cleaning thoroughly. when I got home, I cleaned the bore, and again came up with some very fine lead dust, but nothing to write home about. The fire lapping certainly did polish the bore, and made a profound difference in both the accuracy, and the ease of cleaning.
More testing to follow...
Normally firelapping is done with 200, 400, 800 and finally 1200 grit commercial grade lapping compound. Four rounds are fired with each grit starting with the most coarse and cleaning after every shot. To combat gas cutting use some wads cut from 100% cork gasket material, slightly oversized. NECO Industies is where I got my firelapping kit from. You can do many guns with one kit. wM1
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Uberti 1876 loading problems..... Cartridge OAL is correct. Single feeds from elevator just fine. Rounds from the magazine are cocked upon entering the elevator, with the rear to the right so that the left side of the rim gets caught under a tab on the bottom of the action on the left side looking toward the muzzle. Cimarron had me send it to their gunsmith, Tejas Long Guns. They have had it two weeks now, haven't heard anything. Other than that the rifle is fine. It does need proper sights though.
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That was a common problem on '73 rifles several years back, when Uberti stopped putting a bevel on the corner of the carrier mortice in the frame where the rim catches. They added the bevel back, but the rifles that had the problem needed the bevel to be added (I used a file). Never heard of '76's having the problem. Tejas Long Rifles is Lonnie Ammann, and he is top notch.
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I have an older 73 that has that problem. I noticed it doesn't have the bevel on it and been meaning to do it next time I have it down for a thorough cleaning. It's only a problem on the first round though, just have to make sure it's all the way in and straight.
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Well, It's now 6 weeks and no word about my 1876 Uberti. At least they emailed that it got there. I'm thinking about calling Cimarron, maybe they will just send another. HA
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Back a few years ago when my rifle came it was a mess and not only that but the UPS folks drove over it while it was still the box. And besides that, the damn thing did not have a ny engraving what so lever on it so it got sent back. UPS paid for their mess and we got another rifle that then and now is still a great shooter and after I reworked the stock and trigger it don't even look like a store bought rifle. It took lots of messing around until I found the loads that it likes the best but it was fun and well worth the time. I wound up with only two loads that it likes the best: one is 2400 and the other is Swiss 1½. The bullets I make my own alloy and that is 16:1 as was found on the back of an original factory ammo. Now--about the only thing that I can offer in the way of info is to make damn sureof what you are getting and if at all possible, try for an original.
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Well it took 2 months, but the rifle is back today. I couldn't wait and cycled 3 rounds through it with no problem. After I finished my chores I loaded up 7 rounds and fired them off my back porch and into a swinger at 50 yds. Rifle worked flawless and every round hit the swinger. Now to re-install my tang sight, folding leaf replacement and Marbles front bead, then back to finding the right loads for both smokeless and BP.
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Well it took 2 months, but the rifle is back today. I couldn't wait and cycled 3 rounds through it with no problem. After I finished my chores I loaded up 7 rounds and fired them off my back porch and into a swinger at 50 yds. Rifle worked flawless and every round hit the swinger. Now to re-install my tang sight, folding leaf replacement and Marbles front bead, then back to finding the right loads for both smokeless and BP.
;D someone you knew ?
Swinger
a. A person who actively seeks excitement and moves with the latest trends.
b. A person who engages freely in promiscuous sex.
c. A member of a couple, especially a married couple, who exchanges sexual partners.
Seriously, glad it worked out...
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Voted "other"
New 1876 cal 40-60 WCF. purchased May 2017. Cleaning barrel for first time, first patch had lead. hour or so later, ptches started coming reasonably clean. Decided I ought to check inside receiver to see what it looked like. Side plate screw would not come loose. tried soaking with WD40, KROIL, Ballistol, or combinations thereof. even tried heating both ends of screw with soldering iron (oil soaking was over night. Screwdriver I was using was from a set of gunsmith quality screwdrivers from Midway. After all this I was attempting to loosen the screw, felt like it was starting to move, actually the screw head slot was getting damaged & the screwdriver tip broke one corner off. Ended upsending it to Texas to get fixed. I had to pay shipping myself. Information was that the problem was probably due to the bluing on the screw was not completely cured when installed & therefore rusted the screw in place. Rifle was inrepair shop for a month or so. Apparently designated facility is a one person operation & he must be busy as a 1 legged cat in a 5 acre sand box. I was told that the person had found a quick & easy way to get the screw loose. If that is case problem must be common. Screw had to be replaced. Shipping back to me & new screw was paid by Cimmarron.
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My leading problem is in my AR.45 acp Olympic Arms SBR and not a '76 so I don't know if my solution could be something helpful to you. But I use coated bullets in it and have no leading issues. Prior to using poly, accuracy would gradually deteriorate and bullets would keyhole. Obviously the baked on polycoating protects the bore from the lead. Just a suggestion. Another forum member was going to experiment with poly bullets and black but the consensus was that without bullet's lube to keep things loose he would have action problems.
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Hey ,, charlielima,, I know this is a older thread ,, but you say you bought a "40/60 " WCF from Cimmarron ,,is ( was ) it a Uberti ,, I didn't know that Uberti made a "40/60 " WCF ,,hope it is working out for y'a .
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .