1858 factory conversion ammo

[Blueberry]

Hello pards,

I've bought a original Remington 1858 factory conversion in .44 CF.

What is the right ammunition for this gun ? .44 Colt ?

I need it for loading data and brass.

Thank you

Lt. Blueberry

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Welcome to CAS City, pard. Great gun. I can't answer your question, but congrats on the purchase. You happen to have a picture of it you could post?

[jiminy criquet]

Yes, no answers until we see some photos

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[I Ben Robbed]

I thought the original '58 Remmie conversions used rimfire cartridges?

[I Ben Robbed]

Eh, regardless, here's an article that gives some reloading tips for the .44 Colt (even though the gun in the article is a Cimmaron Colt clone). 

http://www.gunblast.com/Cimarron_Conversion.htm

Also, Black Hills Ammunition has the .44 Colt for sale, along with lots of other period correct ammo.

http://www.black-hills.com/

[jiminy criquet]

I thought the original '58 Remmie conversions used rimfire cartridges?

Factory conversion was .46 Rimfire, actually.

-----------------------------------------------------
Remington New Model Army
Q: I have a Remington single-action New Model percussion revolver that, I've been told, is a factory conversion to .46 Rimfire. It has a 6 1/2-inch octagon barrel, brass triggerguard, original walnut grips and is nickel plated. It seems in fair to good condition. The barrel is stamped "Patented Sept 14, 1858 E Remington & Sons, Ilion New York USA New Model." I find no markings on the cylinder, but on the bottom of the topstrap is the name "J.E. Eller" (some famous gunslinger perhaps?). I'd be interested in the history of these Remington conversions and an estimate on the value of mine. How does it compare in desirability to one that has not been converted to cartridges? --T.C.E., Fresno, CA

A: The Remington New Model Army revolver you describe is a factory conversion from .44-caliber percussion to .46-caliber rimfire. They were made with or without ejector-rod assemblies. Some of these conversions are marked on the cylinder "Patented Apr 3'd 1855." Unfortunately, there have been many non-factory gunsmith conversions performed, and as a result, these factory conversions, while perhaps rarer than the original .44 percussion caliber, are worth approximately 20 percent less. I can't help you with the J.E. Eller marking, especially because of its location. Current values would be in the $450 to $550 range, assuming NRA Good Condition, to as high as $1,500 if in NRA Fine Condition. Incidentally, William F. "Buffalo Bill" Cody carried this percussion model extensively after the Civil War, using it for buffalo hunting and the Indian Wars, and once proclaimed, "It never failed me."

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/values/0509/

[Blueberry]

o.k. I try to insert some photos.


Lt. Blueberry

[Blueberry]

And the next one:


Lt. Blueberry

[Blueberry]

Here is another one with the hammer:


Lt. Blueberry

[jiminy criquet]

Oh, that's kind of neat.  It's got a thin backplate (with a recess for the cylinder ratchets) held on by a screw on the inside of the frame's cylinder cutout...and I can't see how the firing pin is done...the hammer is fashioned from the original, but is the slot in the frame partially welded shut?

Very much like the 7th one down from the top here:
http://armchairgunshow.com/otsAZ_conversions.htm

Does it have a factory conversion number?

Anyways, the correct ammo is .44 Colt.  I believe River Junction carries it, (they call it the .44 Remington) but it can also be made from .44 Special cases, to wit:

The 1860 Army Conversion required the resurrection of an old cartridge, the .44 Colt in modern form. Today's .44 Colt is simply the .44 Special trimmed back from 1.16" to approximately 1.10". My fired cases measure 1.095". The diameter of the cylinder of the 1860 Army is too small to accept six .44 Special rims that have a diameter of .514" so the rims are also trimmed. My cases from Starline have a rim diameter of .487".
http://www.sixguns.com/range/cartridgeconversions.htm

brass:
http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Great photos, Blueberry. Thanks for sharing them with us.

[Blueberry]

Thank you very much.

The slot is partially shut. Not open like the C&Bs.

Where can I find the conversion number ?

Lt. Blueberry

[Blueberry]

Thank you, pards.

Another question: The gun below the 1858 conversion looks like a 1890 model, but it has the old barrel engravings (E. REMINGTON & SONS...), used in 1888 and before.

Could it be a rearranged 1888 model or a real 1890 model, fixed together by Hartley with old parts ?

Lt. Blueberry

[jiminy criquet]

The conversion number could be anywhere on the gun, look for a number separate/smaller than the serial number.

I can't say about the other revolver, other than if the serial number dates from early in production, one supposes the factory could have reused a previous model's barrel in the new production run, or maybe the barrel was a later replacement using old/spare parts.

[I Ben Robbed]

Ok, now I'm curious.  How well would one of these '58s shoot with .44 Colt ammo?  The .44 Colt is a true .44 caliber bullet.  Did the original Remmies have a smaller barrel than the conversions of today?  Because my Pietta barrel is a .452. 

[jiminy criquet]

Nope, I believe both the originals and replicas have similar dimension barrels...somewhere around .451 or so....it's just that their naming conventions were a bit 'off' it seems, calling the caliber a '.44' (ditto for the .36, which is actually around .375 or so, which is why standard .38 Special rounds, being .357, flop around like a limp, uh, noodle in the .36 barrels).  Go figure.

For example, my .36 1858 Navy conversion is actually a caliber .38 Long Colt, not a '.38 Special'.  (Although .38 Special will work with a special heeled bullet.)

More photos of your original conversion now, please

[Bull Schmitt]

HowdyBlueberry,

I sure would like to add a couple of those photos to the SCORRS web site if you don't mind.

[Blueberry]

Bull Schmitt,

I don't mind.

I think the nickel model is a 1888. Serial-# is 19X. I've read, that only 1000 were made in 1888 and 1889. It has wooden grips, but what are other differences between the model 1888 and 1890 ?

If only 1000 werde made instead of 2200 of the 1890 model, it should be more worth.

Keep your powder dry

Lt. Blueberry

[jiminy criquet]

I didn't think there was a 'model 1888', only a model 1875 and model 1890.  That gun appears to be a model 1890, manufactured from 1891-1896, with only 2020 total revolvers made.

Maybe they just didn't change the barrel markings until later in production, and you've got an early production run gun.

[Bull Schmitt]

My copy of "Flayderman's Guide" describes a Remington Model 1888 (Transition) Single Action Army revolver:

 Less than a 1000 made. Identical to the 1890. An 1889 catalog of arms dealer Hartley and Graham had an illustration of it and called it the New Model Pocket Army. Hartley and Graham assumed control of the Remington Arms Co. in 1888. Caliber was 44-40. Barrel address "Remington & Sons, Ilion, N.Y.U.S.A.". Most have a lanyard ring. Many but not all are marked 44 or 44W on left grip. Some have caliber marked on left fame or at rear of trigger guard indicating Hartley and Graham's use of leftover parts. Finish blue or nickel.