Colt 1851 Navy Sq Back

[rep1954]

I was in a gun shop today and someone had put one of Colts black powder 1851 Navy London new release models in there on consignment.
It is NIB as far as I can tell. The only thing was a little discoloration on the butt of the silver grip frame. The box was one of the 2pc. styrofoam that slides into a wood grain cardboard sleeve like the early 3rd gen SAA's came in. Everything is included in the package as it was sold. He has it priced but I've only delt with the Italian name guns and not the Colts so I was hoping for a little help on making a offer. The serial number is "18165" if that helps at all. Thanks in advance and he is asking $595.00.

[Major 2]

London Navy's had steel grip frames not silver plate ...
The BPS Navy with silver plate will tarnish and should brighten up with Tarrn-X.

The Wood grain box pre-date the BPS Black Box  so the years on the box should be about 1978-9
The SS# is in that range.

$595 is about the Mid-ground going price for a handled, but un-fired piece with box etc. , + or - About $50  in different locals




BPS = Black Powder Series--- AKA.  2nd Gen.  Colt BPS

[rep1954]

Major2 I always thought that all square back trigger guards were of the London guns. But again this is why I used the forum as I have very limited BPS know how. How many series were there?

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[WaddWatsonEllis]

I am told that the first '51 Colts shipped to CA had square back trigger guards and silver plating on the butt strap and trigger guard/forward but strap .... forgot who told me, but it seemed accuratate information ....

Anyone know for sure?

[Fingers McGee]

Rep1954,  The '51 Navy in question is a C series revolver made in Hartford in 1975.  Blue Book value (2009) for one in 100% NIB condition is $675; 98% is $500.  The discolorization is just a little tarnish of the silver.  The wood grained boxes with styrofoam inserts were used from 1975 through 1977.  Prior to that, the C series Navies came wrapped in paper in a two tone brown clamshell box.  In 1978, the F series guns were being made and shipped in the black and gold boxes with foam rubber inserts.

WadsWatsonEllis, the first and second model '51 Navies came with squarebacked trigger guards - through serial number 4200 (mid 1851).  After that, round trigger guards were standard issue.  Brass, silver plated, and blued iron BS/TG were options.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Thanks ... now for one more question ...

I use a Gun That Never Was;  a Pietta Model '51 in .44 CAL.

The trigger guard/backstrap front that I have for the pistol has a rounded backside.

I was given a square back that was supposed to fit, but the square Trigger guard/backstrap front is too short to fit on the present backstrap ...

Any answers would be greatly appreciated ....

BTW, the serial # is (E574XX) ...

[Major 2]

Finger's is right ....When I dated the box ...DoH ! 78-9  I was brain fading to the Black box 

Strange though my Series C 's are square backs ..... I did not think the round TG was available till series F 

Fingers has way more BPS Colt's though and I bow to him 


Wadd...can you get the backstrap & grip that goes with your TG ?
Don't know if I was the one, but I was one of the fellows suggesting you get the Colt ( over your Ruger )
I sent you the original  Colt shippment tally if you recall ..and mention Burney had the one you bought up for sale.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Major 2,

The backstrap is yours ... but PM me a good address to send it to

That being said, there are a number of factors going on ...

First, the gun is only used for reenactment, and will probably never see anything but blanks fired through it ... (in fact, that is the weapon in my profile. Most of the time (About 95%) it just sits in my holster.

On over a year doing reenactments, I have never had ONE question about the pistol except wether it was real or not .... *S*

Secondly, I think my pistol was possibly assembled at the factory from spare parts left over at the end of a run ... and they put bored-out-to-.44-cal. '51 cylinders on an 1860 Colt and called it a '51 Colt because of the engravings on the cylinder ... I believe the 1860s had a bigger grip, which would account for the square back grip not fitting.

The squareback frame could also be from a Model '47, again explaining why it is too small.


 I dunno, and don't have a local BP gunsmith I trust enough to find out  ... 'cause if I do own an oddity, I don't want to change it in any way ... so I have this conundrum of my own making ...

I keep erasing this paragraph, so I hope that this can get out ...

Major 2, you are welcome to the squareback trigger guard ...send me a PM with a good address ... althought I just looked where I though it was and could not find it ... so it may take a while to send ....

[Fingers McGee]

Finger's is right ....When I dated the box ...DoH ! 78-9  I was brain fading to the Black box  

Strange though my Series C 's are square backs ..... I did not think the round TG was available till series F  

Fingers has way more BPS Colt's though and I bow to him  

Major, I was talking 'original '51 Navies' about the square back trigger guards and serial numbers.  

As applies to the 2nd Generation Colt BPS, most 1851 Navies, some 20,000 C series and 4,000 F series, had square back trigger guards. The round trigger guards were on the 5,000 Robert E Lee Commemoratives, and the 200 or so C1131 and C1132 model '51s.

[St. George]

The round triggerguards were first available on the 'Lee-Grant Commemoratives' - the 'Lee' having the squareback and the 'Grant' featuring the round.

The initial production run of Colts - the one with the clamshell boxes and the brown paper wrap - were all silver-plated squarebacks.

The fantasy Ubertis were assembled to sell to the unwary.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Fingers McGee]

Secondly, I think my pistol was possibly assembled at the factory from spare parts left over at the end of a run ... and they put bored-out-to-.44-cal. '51 cylinders on an 1860 Colt and called it a '51 Colt because of the engravings on the cylinder ... I believe the 1860s had a bigger grip, which would account for the square back grip not fitting.

The squareback frame could also be from a Model '47, again explaining why it is too small.

 I dunno, and don't have a local BP gunsmith I trust enough to find out  ... 'cause if I do own an oddity, I don't want to change it in any way ... so I have this conundrum of my own making ...

Wadd, just a little clarification.  1851 Navies and 1860 Armies all have the same cylinder scene.  Difference is .36 cals have a straight cylinder and .44s have a rebated cylinder of slightly larger diameter.  Frames are the same, except that the .44 cal frame has a step in the water table to allow for the larger diameter cylinder.  Within the same manufacturer, the mounting of back straps and trigger guards has the same "bolt Pattern" and will interchange from one frame to another.  End result being, you can have Navy grips and grip frames on a 1851 Navy, 1861 Navy, or 1860 Army; or, you can have the longer 1860 Army grips and grip frames one each model also.  For the most part, back straps and trigger guards from the same manufacturer of '51 Navies will interchange, whether square back or round triggerguard.  I just corrected the configuration of a Pietta Dance Revolver by replacing the incorrect square back trigger guard on it with a round triggerguard from a US Marshal Model 1851 Navy.  Only modification I had to do was to trim the grips down a little to meet the profile of the frontstrap.

If the trigger guard was too short to fit the frame, it was probably from a Baby Dragoon.

FM

[Fingers McGee]

The round triggerguards were first available on the 'Lee-Grant Commemoratives' - the 'Lee' having the squareback and the 'Grant' featuring the round.

Other way around St George.  Lee was round and Grant was square. 

FM

[Major 2]

Major, I was talking 'original '51 Navies' about the square back trigger guards and serial numbers.  

As applies to the 2nd Generation Colt BPS, most 1851 Navies, some 20,000 C series and 4,000 F series, had square back trigger guards. The round trigger guards were on the 5,000 Robert E Lee Commemoratives, and the 200 or so C1131 and C1132 model '51s.

Ah !  Doh ...I did not pickup on that 

Correct on the Lee/Grants....  I don't recall ever seeing a Round TG on 2nd Gen's . certainly not among Series C's anyway.
And I doubt series F's....
Round TG were offered in the 3rd Gens Signature series (Gray box)

[rep1954]

I offered $545.00 and they let me take it home. Boy this is one nice little gun put together and finished much better than any other BP revolver that I've held so far. Can anyone tell me just how much of the gun is Uberti and how much work Colt actually did on it.

[Fingers McGee]

Ah !  Doh ...I did not pickup on that  

Correct on the Lee/Grants....  I don't recall ever seeing a Round TG on 2nd Gen's . certainly not among Series C's anyway.
And I doubt series F's....
Round TG were offered in the 3rd Gens Signature series (Gray box)

I've only seen a couple C series '51s with round trigger guard, other than the Lee Commemoratives.  There were no F series made with them AFAIK.  And......... There were 500 C series '51 Navies made with brass backstrap and square backed triggerguard that were not silver plated..

Can anyone tell me just how much of the gun is Uberti and how much work Colt actually did on it.

C series guns were made from parts sets of semi worked parts that were provide to Colt from Italian manufacturers.  Colt did all the fitting and finishing of them in Hartford.  F series guns were made from Italian and american made parts and finished in Middlesex, NJ at Iver Johnson.   For the most part, Uberti parts will work on 2nd Gen guns (at least the ones I've tried)

[Major 2]

Finger's ... thanks for the info, the series C round TG is rare then outside the L/G commemoratives  did not know they even existed.

I had a round TG  3rd Gen. , but I let it go, never really warmed up to them  ( had both the Navy & an 1860 )

I converted my (Circa 1978) 2nd Gen 1860 with a Howell Drop-in spec'ed for and had previously been fitted to a Uberti.
That gun I bought NIB in 78 , I can't say how many C&B rounds have been downrange through it, and it has had many a 45
through is in the last 6 years too...
It's my favorite shooter, well it and my Richards conversions 

rep1954...Congrats on your purchase, I'd would have grabbed it as well.

[Flint]

In the Colt re-issues, there are two squareback TG sizes, the 2nd gen was small, with a matching shorter trigger, as were the 1st gen original Colts.  The 3rd gen Sig Series had a larger squareback guard, the same size as the round guard, with the longer trigger.

London Colts (and 1861) have steel gripframes, the others have brass.  1st and 2nd gen Colt Navies had silver plated gripframes, the 3rd gen look to be nickeled.

The gun in the photograph does not look like a Pietta 51 Navy gripframe, which has a pronounced (and not proper) bell sweep to the backstrap.  It is likely an Army grip, or has been swapped or modified.  A squareback TG might not match the backstrap if they are not both Pietta.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Flint,

Thanks for the info .... I have a sneaking suspiciou that the pisol is actuall y an 1860 .44 Cal with naval battle scene engraved on a .44 Cal. cylinder.

A kind man is sending me a squareback trigger guard, so we shall see if it fits ... if it doesn't, I have toyed with the ide of having the squareback of the guard attached to mine by the same jeweler and then have it silver plated ....

But right now, I am maintaining a 'rigid flexibility' on the whole matter .... *S*

[Flint]

1860 Army Colts have the Navy Battle scene rolled onto the cylinder.  The only ones without it are the fluted cylinders. Pietta makes the 44 caliber "Navy", which of course never existed.  Perhaps the revolver shown is an ASM.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Okay, looking,

The top of the barrel reads, "Hartford, Conn Model" ... the serial # is E5744X...both in front of the trigger guard on the guard itself, and on the cylinder just below print that says "Patent Number"

On the right side of the frame, is a square with the letters 'BI' in it ... and forward of that is what appears to be a wreath with the letters 'PN' below the wreath .... and forward of that is a coat of arms with what appears to be a crown above it ...

Forward and above the wedge that holds on the barrel (on the right side) is a coat of arms with  another crown on top of it. and another 'PN' with another 'wreath above it ...

I believe that I had a chart somewhere that had a 'BI ' Gun as being made in the mid-'80s ... but now I can't find it ....

Any help?