Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Leather Shop => Topic started by: StrawHat on August 20, 2020, 06:22:15 AM
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Anyone making a copy of the Sunday holster or Brill holster as used by the Texas Rangers?
Looking to get one.
Thank you.
Kevin
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I wasn't familiar with the Brill holsters. They're pretty neat. If you get one, please share a photo of it here.
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I have never heard anything about them till now so I went looking and google popped up several makers doing so. Not sure which is the most historically correct though.
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Here's a photo of a genuine Brill I downloaded and posted for reference here. Although you don't see a lot of it, there is a full skirt behind the pouch.
(https://i.imgur.com/KGm2zTJ.jpg)
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A couple more photos to give a clearer picture of the construction. The trigger guard looks to be exposed when the pistol is in it. The last two pics look like a modern made one.
(https://dygtyjqp7pi0m.cloudfront.net/i/20008/19088832_1.jpg?v=8D10786CCC73510)
(https://i.imgur.com/TjDxDju.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PLiqON6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KgUoBTy.jpg)
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...A couple more photos to give a clearer picture of the construction. The trigger guard looks to be exposed when the pistol is in it. The last two pics look like a modern made one....
Yes, the triggerguards were left exposed. They were made from a thinner piece of leather and laminated with a half lining that protected the wearer’s clothes.
Brill was a saddler originally but got out of it and became a retailer. He employed many leathersmiths and the stitching on the back of the holster can give the experts an idea of who made the holster and when.
Retention is solely by the welt and when properly made they are like a vault. These are not one size fits all gunbuckets. Each holster is crafted to a specific pistol or revolver.
The toe is sewn to the skirt in such a way as to draw the handle of the piece closer to the body making it a good concealer. In many ways the Sunday holster could be considered one of the first concealed holsters.
The story goes that when the Texas Rangers were being used more and more in the big cities, they were told to loose the gunbelts and wear there handguns more hidden so as not to disturb the gentry. One of the Captains came up with the idea for a holster to be worn on the recently introduced trouser belts. It no longer needed to be a thick heavy holster but the lamination and the welt construction made them lightweight, rigid and strong.
I want another one for one of my revolvers but finding originals and in usable condition isn not easy. So, I am hoping to find someone who can make a very good copy.
Here are some I own. They are close but lacking some of the finer points.
This holster is holding an I frame.
Kevin
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Okay, try to post the photo this time.
Kevin
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Here is a group shot. Left fits the I frame, middle the N frame and right fits the 1911. All are visually correct but lack some of the finer points.
Kevin
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I figured that wedge of leather between the toe and the skirt was to cant the grip close to the wearer's body. I like the design.
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If anyone here has made a copy, or can make a copy, get in touch with me. I need another one.
Thank you.
Kevin
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OK, pros. Start sending some PMs to the man. I know at least one of you will be able to help him out here.
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These are beautiful! RRides high, a forward cant, rather like the later FBI rig...
I figured that wedge of leather between the toe and the skirt was to cant the grip close to the wearer's body. I like the design.
Ah, that is the secret! I have been unable to keep my modernisch holster from slanting the grip outwards and printing badly!
thanks!
prof marvel
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Still looking for someone to make a copy of the Sunday Scabbard.
ANYONE???
Kevin
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Just the one attempt for my 1911 Officer model.
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Strawhat, the best-functioning copy I know of is the Ranger from Barranti's Leather https://barrantileather.com/shop/ols/products/ranger/v/RNG-4-n (https://barrantileather.com/shop/ols/products/ranger/v/RNG-4-n) Cost--floral carved--is about $300. They changed the design just a bit, it rides higher on the belt than the original. I'm convinced I'm going to try one, still deciding gun to order one for first. More below.
I figured that wedge of leather between the toe and the skirt was to cant the grip close to the wearer's body. I like the design.
The half-liner serves to tip the gun a bit, but mostly aids retention. That strap around the front locks the holster on the belt--it is sewn in place to establish the width of the belt the holster rides on--and holds the gun snugly in place, close to the body.
The wedge is formed by a multi-layer welt. It tips the position of the gun a bit, and the triggerguard rests on it like a "shelf", but the primary purpose is to lock the gun in place in the holster. The frame is held snugly between the vertical part of the wedge and the fold of the holster. (I hope that makes sense, I'm not used to describing holster parts!)
The result is a close-riding holster with good retention, without a thong or strap. I got thrown a couple times while wearing one; when I stood up my pistol was still in the holster. (Had a pinecone in the triggerguard one time, but the pistol was still in the holster!) A strap or thong does help secure the pistol, but it isn't as necessary as on some of the looser "gunbuckets".
Kind of an interesting history on these. I've heard the design originated with a holster made by the King Ranch saddle shop. Brill, or someone in the Austin area (and the originals all seem to come from around Austin) studied the King Ranch holster, lightened it up by trimming the skirt closer to match the outline of the holster, made a few other tweaks, and there it was.
I've owned and used several, from Brill and from other Austin-area makers. On all, the trigger is exposed, even the automatics. A 1911 will fit in a holster made for a 5" (IIRC) N frame, but the trigger will be covered.
In my opinion, they are the ultimate in the evolution of the Western holster.
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In my opinion, they are the ultimate in the evolution of the Western holster.
I have to agree with you on this. It's a beautiful design with little room for functional improvement.
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Anyone who likes the Brill holsters needs the book Holstory. It’s a wonderful book on turn of the century holsters.
Will Ghormley recently released a. We pattern pack on Brill style holsters.
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El Paso Saddlery's "1930 Austin" holster seems to be pretty close to, or at least in the spirit of, the holster being discussed here.
https://epsaddlery.com/product/1930-austin-holster/
Dave
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Strawhat, the best-functioning copy I know of is the Ranger from Barranti's Leather https://barrantileather.com/shop/ols/products/ranger/v/RNG-4-n (https://barrantileather.com/shop/ols/products/ranger/v/RNG-4-n) Cost--floral carved--is about $300. They changed the design just a bit, it rides higher on the belt than the original. I'm convinced I'm going to try one, still deciding gun to order one for first. More below.
The half-liner serves to tip the gun a bit, but mostly aids retention. That strap around the front locks the holster on the belt--it is sewn in place to establish the width of the belt the holster rides on--and holds the gun snugly in place, close to the body.
The wedge is formed by a multi-layer welt. It tips the position of the gun a bit, and the triggerguard rests on it like a "shelf", but the primary purpose is to lock the gun in place in the holster. The frame is held snugly between the vertical part of the wedge and the fold of the holster. (I hope that makes sense, I'm not used to describing holster parts!)
The result is a close-riding holster with good retention, without a thong or strap. I got thrown a couple times while wearing one; when I stood up my pistol was still in the holster. (Had a pinecone in the triggerguard one time, but the pistol was still in the holster!) A strap or thong does help secure the pistol, but it isn't as necessary as on some of the looser "gunbuckets".
Kind of an interesting history on these. I've heard the design originated with a holster made by the King Ranch saddle shop. Brill, or someone in the Austin area (and the originals all seem to come from around Austin) studied the King Ranch holster, lightened it up by trimming the skirt closer to match the outline of the holster, made a few other tweaks, and there it was.
I've owned and used several, from Brill and from other Austin-area makers. On all, the trigger is exposed, even the automatics. A 1911 will fit in a holster made for a 5" (IIRC) N frame, but the trigger will be covered.
In my opinion, they are the ultimate in the evolution of the Western holster.
Odd, I am trying to post images but keep getting a file to big notice?
Kevin
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That means your image needs to be reduced in size to upload it. If you don't want to reduce the size, then you need to have images saved somewhere like Imgur where you can post a link to them.
The first two links here (https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=13207.0) will give you some direction on posting photos.
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I'd love to one day own a real Brill holste but for not as close as I am is three Will Ghormley prototypes that I have. Here is one of them.
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Hi Rube
Is Will making holsters for sale or a pattern pack?
Thanks
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Hi Rube
Is Will making holsters for sale or a pattern pack?
Thanks
This was one of the prototypes for a pattern pack he was making. I bought three of his prototypes.
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That means your image needs to be reduced in size to upload it. If you don't want to reduce the size, then you need to have images saved somewhere like Imgur where you can post a link to them.
The first two links here (https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=13207.0) will give you some direction on posting photos.
Been posting images for a while now, some on this thread. Now, no matter what I do nor how I size them, I get image exceed some magical number.
As I recall, this has happened before. I disappear for 6-8 months and when I come back, I can post 2-3 images!
Kevin
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Been posting images for a while now, some on this thread. Now, no matter what I do nor how I size them, I get image exceed some magical number.
As I recall, this has happened before. I disappear for 6-8 months and when I come back, I can post 2-3 images!
Kevin
In the past I've reduced photos to 640x480 pixels to upload them. Anymore I just put them on imgur and post a link to them. It's easier to do that than mess with uploading them. It has the advantage that your image doesn't take up server space on CAS City, too.
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Try El Paso Holsters
https://epsaddlery.com/product/1930-austin-holster/
My inspiration was derived from middle photo here.
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Anyone who likes the Brill holsters needs the book Holstory. It’s a wonderful book on turn of the century holsters.
Will Ghormley recently released a. We pattern pack on Brill style holsters.
Hi
Are you talking about the El Dorado pattern pack? It's the only one I thought looked close.
By the way, while I agree with the comment that this is the top of the heap: "In my opinion, they are the ultimate in the evolution of the Western holster." I also think that it looks like a difficult holster to make correctly. Toe plugs are hard enough... In a way, I think I'm happy that I don't have anything I carry that would fit correctly in a Brill Holster. Except a 1911. :o
Later
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Will's El Dorado holster isn't a Brill design. I didn't see a Brill on his site. You could email him to see if he has the pattern available.
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Will's El Dorado holster isn't a Brill design. I didn't see a Brill on his site. You could email him to see if he has the pattern available.
Thanks Marshal, but I don't have anything (except 1911's) that really fits JUST that period. I am curious about the pattern, because I really think it is a complicated design.
Later
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Thanks Marshal, but I don't have anything (except 1911's) that really fits JUST that period. I am curious about the pattern, because I really think it is a complicated design.
Later
It is a bit more complex than other designs but it's amazingly well though out. There are a variety of pistols that they were made for. Colt SAA, 1911 and Colt & Smith DAs to mention a few. I like the look of the 1911 ones but they are definitely a great design.
(https://images.proxibid.com/AuctionImages/424/151792/FullDetail/352.jpg)
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Will's El Dorado holster isn't a Brill design. I didn't see a Brill on his site. You could email him to see if he has the pattern available.
He does have them available. It's called the Lone Star Holster pattern pack.
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Hi
I searched and found it here:
https://leathercraftersjournal.com/product/lone-star-holster-pattern-pack/ (https://leathercraftersjournal.com/product/lone-star-holster-pattern-pack/)
I didn't see it on Will's sight though. I need to go back over the list and see if I have something that needs a Brill Holster.
Later
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Would that pattern be available for a 3" S&W N frame?
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It is available for 4" and 6" N frames. Looks like it is designed for 9-10 ounce leather; the originals were 7-8 ounce at most. That's too bad--who wants to wear a brick?
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Just the one attempt for my 1911 Officer model.
Mine is eh! OK... More of a Friday holster really, I mean it works, but just not all that.
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It is available for 4" and 6" N frames. Looks like it is designed for 9-10 ounce leather; the originals were 7-8 ounce at most. That's too bad--who wants to wear a brick?
I want to wear a brick! Just bought a classy S&W N frame with 3" barrel. I need a classic holster for it.
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I like to keep an eye on eBay, I've found several holsters at reasonable cost.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/163330964282?hash=item260748bb3a:g:9D4AAOSwRE9bsTU~&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4I7aJzWv7QOpBE9qIAX6ctqUa42Q1I57uRXCZemc7aYtc8oSfVBEMKbKT3Ofrtk%2FE9k7njWp5PsWcb2RnUt5dfLZO5PFwto6bmSmSSfAcGwgVfecxOKYL500uPP0hwrZYn127se8L2jNpD6y%2FT4giKN1pN23zYdRxpLFfVAF6XM%2F6DlkeL70Cp8hwqJxiiBelnXzb90FsBTrkNaIFN%2FzqlhsTiHGkXxAodArKk4cgX2SwykfuVibgT69hc8in5Pz%2FlzYeOyLe%2F1nOpy7yimpawkbFdi7g4FPo9aN391yGQTV%7Ctkp%3ABFBMqMGd755h
This one could be nice restored :-\
https://www.ebay.com/itm/304730769046?hash=item46f35e8696:g:578AAOSwuAljkM86&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoAWnURbq%2Bd4H9280bGPsd2R74YX%2FcFcGOJRyAFCi7m%2Fh6ePx99mD6uzW9ezT9KG2OlnXoT2icSzEQme9%2FdW9fMdnWdxTrGELRwAJbBmzy2mDZYekqCJUMenBVdCaGCvRecK5YjIdpWAHO9NbSHbxFLIB96wVwC7kGq5si%2Fcr%2F8UuwQTOcDKtnPWsQDY04OfJa0EqAA1zKqX%2FkO6AkVcZ2m4%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6rBne-eYQ
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165065922130?hash=item266eb21652:g:DIgAAOSwFpZhPMAl&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4GjOV160n4WD3V9r5V5kos4bdfXrac6hPOBcF9ihe2LLftd2Zm6VRBhac7ey2N3pC6U65Z3hCgashBmOWcbd0O0XmRc3C2XyzlzQ9jFqvrHmIHT2m%2FLenrHifcRHdkAtr8PecCRJ0wZoqWmb2KbyOmDiNa4Yvl6GioPk%2FYoW3odFKBzvlTAEKRZ0aj1QNbYFWbBqY9YZ0BBzFne3jsl0LIvMYgKhOHGeGvirk7xwdVwKGBrSfRHtISU6UV00hBMOgvwoD%2FMmDM7bSaxzsKVzL%2FZ78MSrv%2BPmc7kphDU0H%2B77%7Ctkp%3ABFBMqsGd755h
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Nice find Will, good compact holster probably easy to wear all day..
tEN wOLVES ;D
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Yeah, that Brill design is a good one.
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Hi
I ordered the Lone Star Holster Pattern from Leathercrafter magazine. It's not advertised on Will's website at this time. The pattern and directions are a step or two more detailed than (for example) the Lawdog pattern, and they need to be. The Lone Star (Brille) pattern is fitted to the frame of the pistol in such a way as to hold the pistol tightly in the holster. It was interesting that the example Will used, didn't make the holster all that tight to save the pistol's finish. Again, the directions are very detailed with the last pages containing 57 individual steps.
I'll build one of these for a 1911, and a Smith L Frame, but it will be a while. Neither is on my list of things to do (until last week).
Later
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Very good. When you do make one/them, please post photos back here for us photo junkies to drool over.
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Here was the test holster for my SAA “Brill” pattern. It’s not an exact copy of a brill, I rivet the loop to the fender for example. It is more so a mix of a brill and the Myres “brill” style holster. Pardon my horrid basket stamping, this is probably my third attempt at basket stamping a holster. These are very functional and attractive holsters, but when you’re hand stitching like I am, it is a bit of a challenge, but I enjoy every day in the leather shop. Hope all of y’all are doing well!
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I won't hold a rivet or two against anyone. That looks great! Thanks for the photos.
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This would be my Sunday Holster.
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Hi
The Brill / Lone Star holsters are well regarded, BUT they don't cover the trigger guard. Many (I'd say most, but I didn't count) of El Paso Saddlery holsters for the 1911 have the trigger covered. The Brill holsters (again I didn't count) revolver holsters seem to have the trigger guard uncovered. What is the preferred design for Concealed Carry with respect to covering the trigger? Why or Why not?
I DO understand one reason based on things I've seen but thankfully not experienced. Re-holstering into a holster with an exposed trigger would seem to be a more safe experience. This is based on a friend re-holstering an automatic into an appendix carry holster with a covered trigger, and shot himself in the butt.
I came up with the question here so I posted it here, but starting a new thread for his won't hurt my sense of Self Worth... ;D
Later Y'all
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For the 1911, the Brill doesn't cover the trigger (it covers the guard, but is cut away to access the trigger). Same with the revolvers: the triggerguard is used to position the gun, and to retain the gun in place, but the trigger is exposed. The Brill was designed in a different time, for a different target market. It wasn't designed so much a "concealment" holster as a less-obvious holster for folks who were intended/required to be armed (i.e., Rangers and general law enforcement) and expected to need that pistol in a hurry. They considered the exposed triggerguard an acceptable risk.
The design is focused on function before concealment. It gave LEOs a functional fighting holster they could cover with a coat when in court. IIRC, at the time it came out/was in production, Texas didn't allow the carrying of pistols by private citizens when off their property.
Most CC holsters do cover the trigger. I suspect a big part of this is perceived liability, that if the trigger is exposed and the gun discharged, someone somewhere will argue that the holster designer or maker is liable for the ND. Part of it also is that times have changed. Most folks carrying a pistol today do so in case it is needed, rather than with the expectation that it will be needed.
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I have yet to see a photo of a Brill that covers the triggerguard on a Colt SAA or DA or a Smith DA. Those do cover the frame ahead of the triggerguard which will position the pistol. The only Brill models I know of that cover the triggerguard are for a 1911.
(https://i.imgur.com/KgUoBTy.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8tp74Zt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qaV26xi.jpg)
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Here's a photo of a genuine Brill I downloaded and posted for reference here. Although you don't see a lot of it, there is a full skirt behind the pouch.
(https://i.imgur.com/KGm2zTJ.jpg)
I am going through cascity.com for the first time and want to offer a comment or two. Some of these holsters do interest me, and I may have communicated with you or others on this thread on other forums as well. This A. W. Brill marked holster was made after September 1932 by N. J. Rabensburg. He made Brill holsters until his death in 1961.
A. Neale Rabensburg, Grandson
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I am going through cascity.com for the first time and want to offer a comment or two. Some of these holsters do interest me, and I may have communicated with you or others on this thread on other forums as well. This A. W. Brill marked holster was made after September 1932 by N. J. Rabensburg. He made Brill holsters until his death in 1961.
A. Neale Rabensburg, Grandson
Now, how cool is that? It's good to hear from someone related to the maker. Thanks for that additional information. Hopefully you will continue to post more on the forum. Do you have any personal photos that would give us more of a feel for your Grandfather and his work? His work is certainly historic stuff.
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I am going through cascity.com for the first time and want to offer a comment or two. Some of these holsters do interest me, and I may have communicated with you or others on this thread on other forums as well. This A. W. Brill marked holster was made after September 1932 by N. J. Rabensburg. He made Brill holsters until his death in 1961.
A. Neale Rabensburg, Grandson
Very cool indeed. The Brill holster made by the various makers are some of the most appearling holsters to me. Very well done. Hope you will continue to post here and would love to see any historic photos you may have of your grandfather or his work.
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Glad to see this thread getting some legs!
The Sunday scabbard was designed at a time when the Texas Rangers were coming off the ranges and ranches and spending more time in towns and cities, specifically Austin. The genteel folk did NOT like seeing the gunbelts and ammunition belts and requested (required?) they be not worn. Ranger Hughes met with a local saddler and discussed what he wanted in a holster, light weight, petite, and worn on the then new trousers belt, not a separate gun belt. He had a specific design in mind and apparently traveled about and had more than a few saddlers making this style of holster.
They were designed to be worn hidden under a vest of jacket, the trigger was exposed because it did not need to be covered.
They were designed to hold the handgun securely by jamming the welt against the frame and yet a slight tug freed it to present.
A very good design then, and now.
The holsters were also specific to a revolver. Most were built for fixed sighted revolvers and jamming an adjustable sighted revolver into one will cause a lot of harm. Although, oddly enough, a holster built for a 4” N frame will also accept a 1911 quite nicely.
Kevin
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:) Opportunity ;)
Once had the opportunity to visit the Texas Ranger Museum. Some of the most impressive and finest Gun Leather I have ever seen. Absolutely superb!!
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Just finished another “Brill” tribute holster for a customer. I enjoy making these, but man alive this particular style of holster is one of the most time consuming and tedious rigs I do. I would’ve loved to have sat in the shop with Mr. Rabensburg and learned how in the world he did such beautiful work on such a complex design.
Truly, in the beginning Brill was king.
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Double thumbs up to this one. Looks great. I like the smaller basket weave on them, too.
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Double thumbs up to this one. Looks great. I like the smaller basket weave on them, too.
Agree with you on this. The smaller Basket Weave on them look so nice. Very time consuming though.
Good looking holster BCD
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Nice job, Brushy.
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Very nice holster with fresh, clean lines. A classic.