Author Topic: Change barrel Winchester 1897  (Read 696 times)

Offline McCrower

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Change barrel Winchester 1897
« on: October 02, 2021, 03:09:49 AM »
I have damaged my original barrel on my Winchester 1897 Takedown shotgun. But luckily I have managed to get hold of a new barrel, not original Winchester, but a new 20 inch reproduction barrel. When trying to assemble the extension sleeve to the new barrel it seems impossible to get the extension in the right position, aligning it correctly with the front sight and the notches for the magazine band screws. I have used as much force as I dare to. See image. 

Do I need a gunsmith for this job? The problem with that is that there are no gunsmiths in Norway or Europe that know the Winchester 97 to my knowledge.

Excuse my poor english.

McCrower.
Norway.

Offline W0LFY

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2021, 05:08:46 AM »
how different is thw new barrel from the old?
Wolfy

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Offline McCrower

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2021, 06:05:38 AM »
See images. This is when I have tightened them as much as I can by hand.

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2021, 04:58:52 PM »
My Good Monsiuer McCrower

Hei, hvordan har du det?

It looks like the old barrel does not line up either? Or am I confused?

How good are your skills at hand fitting machine parts?
That will decide if you need a gunsmith.

You will need to measure the threads and shoulders of the old barrel and compare to the new barrel.

Without seeing the parts, I would "guess" that you may need to take "a little" off the shoulder of the new barrel to allow it to turn further.

If this does not make sense ,  you may need the help of a gunSmith or machinist.
I can offer one or two people who might be able to advise you, one is a skilled machinist in Sweden the other fellow is a black powder shooter in ( I think) Norway.

Hope this helps
Prof Marvel
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2021, 05:42:04 PM »
 Howdy McCrower.  You mentioned it being an import barrel.  Chinese?  I'm not certain but think those threads will be different unless possibly the TTN brand? 

Edit: just occurred to me those chinese guns were all solid frame, so probably not one of those.

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #5 on: Today at 07:54:58 PM »

Offline McCrower

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2021, 03:31:02 AM »
Howdy McCrower.  You mentioned it being an import barrel.  Chinese?  I'm not certain but think those threads will be different unless possibly the TTN brand? 

Edit: just occurred to me those chinese guns were all solid frame, so probably not one of those.

Barrel bought in the US, www.classicoldwesternarms.com  :)

Offline McCrower

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2021, 03:42:02 AM »
My Good Monsiuer McCrower

Hei, hvordan har du det?

It looks like the old barrel does not line up either? Or am I confused?

How good are your skills at hand fitting machine parts?
That will decide if you need a gunsmith.

You will need to measure the threads and shoulders of the old barrel and compare to the new barrel.

Without seeing the parts, I would "guess" that you may need to take "a little" off the shoulder of the new barrel to allow it to turn further.

If this does not make sense ,  you may need the help of a gunSmith or machinist.
I can offer one or two people who might be able to advise you, one is a skilled machinist in Sweden the other fellow is a black powder shooter in ( I think) Norway.

Hope this helps
Prof Marvel

Takk Professor Marvel. Jeg har det bra, hvordan har du det?  :)

I understand your confusion about the old barrel. The extension on the old barrel lines up if proper tools are used. It's an old shotgun, from 1912, I have used it for years. So when the barrel got a serious dent, I had to fabricate tools for getting the old extension off.  See image.

But is seems like the old extension on the new barrel is to tight to get lined up, even if I use tools. I'm afraid to tighten too much, and to break the old extension. Impossible to get hold of parts for a 97 in Norway, and very expensive to buy from the US for me.

I makes a lot of sense what you are saying about taking off some metal on the new barrels shoulder, my thoughs exactly too  :)

Great if you know someone in Norway that could help me.

McCrower

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2021, 04:58:21 AM »
Hilsen Herregud McCrower -

Jeg gjør det bedre enn jeg burde!

First, let us ask the Winchester 1897 Takedown specialists  here and make sure we are headed in the right
direction.

However, based on the what I have managed to do and learn so far, the fitting of a threaded barrel (takedown or otherwise)
almost always involves slowly and carefully fitting the shoulder of the barrel to the frame so that the final fraction
of a turn (often only 1/16 or 1/32 of a turn) brings the sights to vertical without too much force. This holds true
for most all barrels, whether shotgun, rifle, or revolver.

Let us hope some Win '97 specialists chime in, and I will reach out to my Swedish and Norwegian friends
and see what they say.

Oh, and I need to make sure that Len (in Norway) is actually still alive!!! I have not heard
from him since Covid started...

I cannot rememeber what town in Sweden my machinist friend is in, but recently he has been
rebuilding a lot of  "basket case" percussion guns, using his TIG welder, large metal lathe, and large milling machine.
He is getting particularly good at rebuilding percussion rrevolvers and breechloading percussion rifle, with the
intention of obtaining the best possible lockup and accuracy so as to use them in target matches!

I won't bother my Finnish friend, he would probably shout "perkele" and throw his beer at me LOL .

please "stand by" and we will see what kind of help we can get for you!

Med Vennlig Hilsen
Professor Marvel
 


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Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2021, 05:26:31 AM »
My Good McCrower -

I did a little research and have some bad news, it seems the Winchester 1897 is
one of the more difficult shotguns to fit a barrel.


fitting an 1897 barrel:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/winchester-97-barrel-question.195389/

re takedown adjustment
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/win-12-97-takedown-adjustment.138067/

interesting thread about tools required
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/forum/shot-guns/shotguns/i-have-a-winchester-97-takedown-back-end-and-a-model-12-barrel-212338

here is a good discussion:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/question-re-vintage-winchester-model-12-barrel-swap.831550/

note the comment from user Crawdad1
snip----------------------------------------
"    You couldn't get a repeating shotgun that is more difficult to swap barrels.
You'll need special tools and probably a lathe to do this.
   Good luck.
     Crawdad1, Jan 22, 2018 "
endsnip----------------------------------------

and from CoalTrain:

snip-------------------------------------------
    Model 12's were certainly the Cadillac of pump shotguns. One of the reasons they were discontinued in the 60's was the 870 was just a simpler, more useful and less expensive design. I have a 97 that was the fore runner of the 12. I have several barrels for it and have changed them a few times. Both of my barrels have extensions on them as the gun was fitted at the factory for both barrels. I know this because the receiver and barrels have the same SN.

    If you find another barrel you will want the extension that goes with it or find an extension to put on it. That isn't going to be easy. Once you have the barrel and extension a smith is going to be needed to mate them together to fit your receiver. The extension has to be on the new barrel and properly mated to the receiver before a barrel swap can be made. You are correct in thinking you don't want to remove the extension from your short barrel. If you remove it your barrel becomes useless until it's extension is again properly fitted to the barrel and receiver. That requires a special barrel wrench and some skill
....   

Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
CoalTrain49, Jan 23, 2018
endsnip--------------------------------------------

finally, from a gunsmith who does this A LOT

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/model-12-barrel-replacement.129927/

it sounds like it is not a job for the amature gunsmith!
 

snip------------------------------

Your first problem would be to unscrew the extension without damage, and then fit it to the new barrel, but the bead has to be on top,
so lathe work is almost a given. Then it needs to have the fit into the frame made proper, and the adjusting sleeve that you have will
probably not work right, either.

Then you need to make sure that the barrel chamber aligns with the specially mated chamber ring that we hope hasn't been overly
cut large or offset to fit the aftermarket barrel, or else you need one of those to be fit, also.

Parts possibly needed: adjusting sleeve, chamber ring
Tools possibly needed: chamber ring fitting set
Tools almost certainly needed: barrel extension wrench, lathe

Experience is necessary to minimize the possibility of ruination of something, and lucky amateurs will have a loose barrel and/or
one that doesn't extract, and may feed with difficulty with a mis-aligned chamber.

Yes, I am a Model-12 specialist, and have plenty of spare parts.

Right now I have just posted a Black Diamond Model-12 for parts salvage, but if someone wants to get the complete set, realize
that the frame has been battered to the point of being useless without a rebuild. This has very nice figure in the wood and a solid rib
30" full barrel. I would rather fit all of the parts to a replacement frame from the Nickel Steel era, and use the matching extension
that hopefully was with the frame.
...
kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com
 
endsnip-------------------------------------------

let us see if our members have any other opinions and I will check with my Scandanavian friends.

best regards
Prof Marvel
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2021, 07:59:46 AM »

I would be more inclined to make up a mandrel and remove the dent from the original barrel.  Or cut the original barrel behind the dent, depending on how far back the dent is.

Coffinmaker

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #10 on: Today at 07:54:58 PM »

Offline McCrower

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2021, 08:35:56 AM »
I would be more inclined to make up a mandrel and remove the dent from the original barrel.  Or cut the original barrel behind the dent, depending on how far back the dent is.

Coffinmaker

Good imput, but then I would have a 6 inch barrel..  ;D  .

The dent is actually all the way around, result of a stuck wad/squib in the barrel which was sitting there when the next shot was fired..

Offline McCrower

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2021, 08:46:47 AM »



Your first problem would be to unscrew the extension without damage, and then fit it to the new barrel, but the bead has to be on top,
so lathe work is almost a given.

best regards
Prof Marvel

Thank you again sir. This I actually have managed to do. A special clamp tool was made for the extension and the old barrel. The old barrel is by the way beyond repair. So if I don't get the new barrel to work, this shotgun will be my most expensive wall decoration...  :P

McCrower

Offline Cap'n Redneck

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2021, 10:11:59 AM »
"The dent is actually all the way around, result of a stuck wad/squib in the barrel..."

Allow me to chime in with some Norwegian/English translation & clarification:  the technical term for your barrel damage is not "a dent" (Norw.: "en bulk") but "a bulge" (Norw.: "en bule").

Also "a lathe" means "en dreiebenk" in Norwegian, as opposed to the tool you fabricated to loosen the extension.  That I would term a "custom wrench" (Norw.: "spesial-nøkkel").

(I have advised McCrower via the Norwegian CAS-forum to contact the teacher at the Norwegian gun-smithing school.)

Just my "10 cents" worth (Norw.: "86,5 øre").   ;)
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Offline McCrower

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2021, 12:48:06 PM »
"The dent is actually all the way around, result of a stuck wad/squib in the barrel..."

Allow me to chime in with some Norwegian/English translation & clarification:  the technical term for your barrel damage is not "a dent" (Norw.: "en bulk") but "a bulge" (Norw.: "en bule").

Also "a lathe" means "en dreiebenk" in Norwegian, as opposed to the tool you fabricated to loosen the extension.  That I would term a "custom wrench" (Norw.: "spesial-nøkkel").

(I have advised McCrower via the Norwegian CAS-forum to contact the teacher at the Norwegian gun-smithing school.)

Just my "10 cents" worth (Norw.: "86,5 øre").   ;)

Thank you Cap'n Redneck. I know that I have more than a "dent". I am actually a bit embarrassed to admit that I totally ruined my old 97 barrel...    ;D    ;D   I have now replaced "lathe" with "clamp tool". Probably not perfect expression this either  ;D

And thanks again for your advice about the gunsmith in Norway.

McCrower

Offline Ken J Dyck

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Re: Change barrel Winchester 1897
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 07:24:24 AM »
" embarrassed to admit that I totally ruined my old 97 barrel...   
McCrower

It happens, I bulged the barrel on my 16 ga 870, I heard the squib but as the shot went out the barrel I took another shot at the target. Small bulge. A two year search led me to buy another 870. I shortened the old barrel and sold the gun. The mistake was mine, and yes, still embarrassed.

I've worked on a couple of 1897s, but didn't get as deep as you have with barrel swapping. I have removed the extension to clean up rust and touch up the bluing. So easy to distort the extension, especially if they are tight, or rusted in place.

Depending on the bulge, the effect is mostly cosmetic, IOW, is not unsafe, of course depending on the extent of the bulge, and where it is. Mine was about 2" back from the muzzle. I didn't like it as it was a constant reminder of my stupidity. Another option for me was to install a screw in choke. In the end buying another gun was cheaper. Especially since I sold the old one for more than the new one cost me. Oddly, it is easier to sell a short barrel shotgun. If I have trouble selling a shotgun, shortening the barrel will usually get a sale.

Hope your project gets finished, keep us posted.


 

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