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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Doug.38PR on October 13, 2010, 11:18:00 PM

Title: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on October 13, 2010, 11:18:00 PM
I've largely decided that my next gun is going to be the Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine .45-70.

I've handled it in a Houston gunshop and it is nice!  Nice finish, wood stock. 

The only thing is...it's so dang expensive.  Around $1100.   And for a simple single shot rifle.

Still it is a nice gun. 
I was just wondering if any of you gentlemen in here have one, have shot it and what you think of it.
Thanks
Doug
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Drydock on October 14, 2010, 12:15:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTmrjeQmjAE


These are made by Pedersoli, not Uberti.  I  have a limited edition one thru Cherrys,  I consider it an excellent weapon.  New prices  seem to run $1200-$1300.    Not knowing the condition of the one you're considering, I cannot comment on the price.  Fit and finish on all that I've seen has been excellent, with superior milspec 3 groove barrels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq8c4v57eVY
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on October 14, 2010, 08:56:56 AM
I'm impressed :o :D   You have a nice gun there.
What it lacks in capacity (compared to the 1873 Winchester) it makes up for in power (.45-70 vs. 44-40 or .45 LC) and reloading, with some practice, can be achieved pretty quick from your reenactment scene. 

I guess because it looks so much like my favorite 20th century patrol rifle (the M-1 Carbine) is one reason I like it so much.

BTW, your reenactment scene reminds me of a scene from "The Searchers" with John Wayne and Jeffrey Hunter where the U.S. Cavalry are returning from a raid on a Comanche village in the snow.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Drydock on October 14, 2010, 09:15:59 AM
Thats  not me.   Some  U-tube footage I searched up of fellow GAF members and their Trapdoors.  The demonstration is by  Rowdy Fulcher.  The snow  scene is Texas Sarge at our 2009 Grand Muster. (Thats me laughing in the backround)  My usual weapon is a Krag-Jorgenson.     ;D

You can see me toward the end of this video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApYp6_FgLOc
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on October 14, 2010, 12:23:52 PM
 ;D the first video in that first post of yours looks just like you in the profile picture here. 
The snow trooper Texas Sarge, looks smiliar with his back mostly turned but I can hear from the voice they are two different men.

Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Major Matt Lewis on October 14, 2010, 09:36:52 PM
I have both the Officer's Model and the Carbine.  The Officer's Model is a better shooter hands down.  On mine, the front sight post is too dang high.  The Officer's Model is a dead shooter at CAS distance by putting the front sight bead on the target and making sure you don't see any post.  But as all opinions go, milage may very.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on October 15, 2010, 10:45:52 AM
can the modern replicas handle modern .45-70 ammo? or only black powder or "cowboy action" smokeless powder (smokeless powder lowered to 19th century pressures)?

Can the Springfield Trapdoor feed and fire a .45 Long Colt in the same way that a .357 magnum or .44 magnum will came the .38 and .44 Special?
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: SGT John Chapman on October 15, 2010, 12:27:41 PM
The Trapdoor will not F&F 45 Colts you can how ever work up "Gallery"  or reduced loads useing a .457-8" ball,
You will have to be careful as to the loads you use to stay within the pressure constraints of the Trapdoor.


I think the ammo has to be under 18,000 PSI but look it up yourself to be sure.....
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Pitspitr on October 15, 2010, 12:33:06 PM
can the modern replicas handle modern .45-70 ammo? or only black powder or "cowboy action" smokeless powder (smokeless powder lowered to 19th century pressures)?

Can the Springfield Trapdoor feed and fire a .45 Long Colt in the same way that a .357 magnum or .44 magnum will came the .38 and .44 Special?
Yes modern ammo is completely safe through the modern repros. In fact most say NOT to use them with BP however most of us do. The .45 LC probably isn't a good idea in a 45-70. The LC uses a smaller bullet (.452 as opposed to the .458 in the .45-70) and has a significantly smaller rim. If you reload you could download, I'm not real sure why you would want to though.

As to the quality of the Pedersoli's, I have one of the Long Range Models. I love it. Very accurate shooting, (not as a reproduction) and well made. I did take a file to the front sight so that it was the contour of the originals.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on October 15, 2010, 02:32:38 PM
Only reason I brought up the .45 LC question was because I was thinking it might be cheaper to shoot than .45-70.   Kinda like .44 Special in .44 Magnum gun
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Drydock on October 15, 2010, 03:41:39 PM
Apples and hand grenades.  Two completely different genre's.  The .44s are both straight case revolver cartidges.  The 45 LC is a straight case revolver cartridge, the .45-70 a tapered case rifle round.   Don't even think it.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Niederlander on October 15, 2010, 05:14:44 PM
Apples and hand grenades.  Two completely different genre's.  The .44s are both straight case revolver cartidges.  The 45 LC is a straight case revolver cartridge, the .45-70 a tapered case rifle round.   Don't even think it.
Thank you, Drydock!
      Bad things can/will happen if you try to use a .45 Colt in a .45-70.  Reminds of when my cousin fired some 7.62 NATO rounds out of a 7.62 X 54R Soviet SVT-40.  He said flames shot out of places he didn't think they should.  I imagine they did!  I'm just glad he wasn't hurt, and yes, we had a little class on caliber nomeclature, with emphasis on using ONLY the proper ammunition in your guns!
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on October 16, 2010, 10:58:07 PM
Don't worry. I always try to seek good advice before trying something like this  ;D   Thanks for the healthy advice!  I'll take it.

.45-70 is a pretty tough load isn't it?  Didn't the buffalo hunters use it to take down Buffalo?

The scene in Lonesome Dove where the Kiowas, halfbreeds and Comancheros have Augustus MacCrae pinned down behind his horse with a long range buffalo gun comes to mind  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UhypY-pUg

(on the side, I don't know what Larry McMurtry was on when he decided to make the "prequels" and "sequels" to this....not to mention Bareback Mountain....or maybe he had a dang good ghostwriter when he "wrote" this
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Trailrider on October 17, 2010, 12:05:29 AM
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO USE .45 LC AMMO IN A .45-70!  The base diameter of the .45 LC is significantly smaller than that of the .45-70 case!  Modern factory loads in .45-70 ARE set to SAAMI standards for the Trapdoor Springfields, Sharps rifles, etc.  Reduced loads can be assembled BUT...the large capacity of even modern solid-head brass requires careful development for reduced loads.  Faster-burning powders might seem to be the way to go, but they take up very little room in the case, leaving the possibility of the powder shifting around in the case as it is handled, which, at best won't help accuracy.  I would look at published load data for powders such as 5744 and Trail Boss.  Even these will have lower charge limitations, and DO NOT GO LIGHTER!  Fillers can sometimes be used, but in a single shot rifle, you are probably better off to tip the cartridges nose up prior to loading.  The powder will probably shift some when you insert the round in the chamber, but as long as you are reasonably consistant, so should your velocities from shot to shot.

Another thing to insure proper ignition of the powder is to FIRMLY CRIMP the case mouth into the crimp groove, or whereever you seat your bullet.  The myth that a crimp hurts accuracy is just that!  A firm, but not excessive crimp will help retard bullet motion until the pressure has built up enough to insure ignition of especially smokeless powders.

NEVER attempt to reduce black powder charges unless you use a filler wad to completely take up the powder space between the base of the bullet and the charge!  The Army did exactly that to reduce the 70 grain charge to 55 grains in the carbine loading, rather than shorten the case.  Of course with very reduced gallery or SASS loads, this might become problematic.  I don't know!

Ride careful, sir!
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Professor Marvel on October 17, 2010, 11:40:25 PM
the .45 Colt cartridge dimensions vs the 45-70
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Windy City Joe on October 24, 2010, 09:02:01 AM
Yesterday I was at Cabela’s in Kansas City, Kansas and they have a Springfield Trapdoor Carbine .45-70 made by Pedersoli for $899. It looks brand new and never fired. It is in the gun library.
Windy City Joe
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Grapeshot on December 03, 2010, 01:45:29 PM
I have one of the Trapdoor Rifles.  The Front Sight is to high, but I can fix that.  The ejector Spring is WEAK.  It kicks the shell out of the chamber but not clear of the rifle like an original does.  You have to either pick out the fired case or elevate the muzzle as you open the tap door so gravity helps the ejected round to fall free so you can load another round.  Othe than that, it shoots well.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: captmack on December 05, 2010, 01:58:06 PM
I shoot an H&R Trapdoor Carbine and it works great and is not near as expensive as the Pedersoli models.

Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: captmack on December 05, 2010, 02:03:54 PM
Thats  not me.   Some  U-tube footage I searched up of fellow GAF members and their Trapdoors.  The demonstration is by  Rowdy Fulcher.  The snow  scene is Texas Sarge at our 2009 Grand Muster. (Thats me laughing in the backround)  My usual weapon is a Krag-Jorgenson.     ;D

You can see me toward the end of this video:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApYp6_FgLOc

Yes, I filmed the video of Texas Sarge at the 2009 Grand Muster.  And he is shooting an H&R Carbine just like mine:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq8c4v57eVY[/youtube]
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: captmack on December 05, 2010, 02:05:48 PM
Here is my video with the identical model H&R Cavalry Carbine. 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9x-b2UtgyE[/youtube]
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Drydock on December 05, 2010, 07:42:35 PM
Texicans LUV to show off their toys . . .  ;D
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Grapeshot on December 10, 2010, 11:21:09 AM
I shoot an H&R Trapdoor Carbine and it works great and is not near as expensive as the Pedersoli models.

H&R stopped making the Trapdoors years ago.  I picked up a Carbine back in 1973 for $154.00 from my local sporting goods store.  I haven't seen any since 1980 except in gun magazines.  If they have reinstated their manufacture of them it's news to me.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Drydock on December 10, 2010, 12:35:06 PM
They're talking about the original run of H&Rs.  Unfortunatly they've recently developed something of a collector market themselves.   Depending on condition, price runs right up there with originals and new Pedersoli's.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: StrawHat on December 10, 2010, 04:32:31 PM
Originals available here.

http://www.trapdoors.com/gallery.php?area=guns
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on February 06, 2011, 01:28:01 AM
I'm going to try to get me one sometime after April 8) 
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Montanashooter on February 06, 2011, 08:17:35 AM
This just a alternate thought, there numerous already cutdown trapdoor infantry can be had significantly cheaper then repros or all complete infantry rifles even.  Trapdoors Galore sales converted stocks (though i feel they cost enough and can be done by onesself) , barrels changes are easy and carbine length barrels are real common on onlinie auction sites etc.  due to the muzzle is usually the worse part if cleaning rods got a little to agressive.  Some may say you need a gunsmith for everything but i dont feel any of this cant be done by a capable person that has some common sense,patience and slight tool skillls.  Barrels are usually a direct interchange just dont use a pipe wrench, barrel vices are pretty simple to make if you have a welder and a couple small pieces or hard wood for vice "jaws" so to speak.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on March 03, 2011, 10:41:57 PM
Most people make a big to do about repeating rifles that won the west.   No doubt the Winchester/Henry/Yellowboy did indeed offer a considerable advantage.....but you could do far worse if you were in a hole with a dead horse next to you surrounded by Indians if you had a Trapdoor Carbine in your hands along with your pistol.   It may be a single shot rifle, but it has FAR more powerful and heavier load than a .44-40 or .45 Long Colt with it's .40-70 load.   Reloading is a heck of a lot faster than a muzzle loader or ball and cap breech loading carbine. 
If I remember my history correct, the Buffalo Hunters at Adobe Walls came out on top holding the Comanche at bay using single shot Sharps rifles.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Montanashooter on March 03, 2011, 11:55:44 PM
i find it hard to believe that everyone had a winchester above there fire place as late as the 1870s  i figure there were still a number of muzzleloaders and single shot weaponary prob floating around homesteads and such.  I recall finding a civil war springfield bayonet in the walls of a old barn once when i was quite young....  Im personally a single shot fan myself as i find i like the rollers, sharps and springfields better though i dabble with all.  I fired half a dozen shots from my 50-90 Sharps awhile back and could here the load BOOOOM  then picked up my 92 44-40 look alike and it sounded like ping ping lol.   I would like to here some real actual numbers (or close as one can get) as to how many people actually possessed the cartridge fed repeaters of the day as no one made a lot of cash in the west and it was dang scarce by our standards cost of a winchester in 1873 sounds cheap but it wasnt to them.  I also dont believe every westerner got in a gun fight in the street, fired a shot at a indian even, though it prob wasnt totally uncommon either and it certainly makes movies more interesting.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: cpt dan blodgett on April 01, 2011, 12:22:53 AM
Don't worry. I always try to seek good advice before trying something like this  ;D   Thanks for the healthy advice!  I'll take it.

.45-70 is a pretty tough load isn't it?  Didn't the buffalo hunters use it to take down Buffalo?

The scene in Lonesome Dove where the Kiowas, halfbreeds and Comancheros have Augustus MacCrae pinned down behind his horse with a long range buffalo gun comes to mind  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UhypY-pUg

(on the side, I don't know what Larry McMurtry was on when he decided to make the "prequels" and "sequels" to this....not to mention Bareback Mountain....or maybe he had a dang good ghostwriter when he "wrote" this

Gus was actaully armed with a Henry in that scene.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on May 20, 2011, 12:53:00 AM
I know Gus was using a Henry, but I mean the Comanchero that Gus shoots in the gut, that guy was using a .45-70 sharps buffalo gun right?
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Pitspitr on May 23, 2011, 07:19:04 AM
 ??? I thought Gus got shot in the leg with an arrow. I guess I'll have to watch it again sometime.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Niederlander on May 23, 2011, 07:44:49 AM
I know Gus was using a Henry, but I mean the Comanchero that Gus shoots in the gut, that guy was using a .45-70 sharps buffalo gun right?

He was using some sort of Sharps with a scope, but wasn't very good with it.  In reality, I should think a bullet from any caliber the Sharps was chambered in would probably go THROUGH the dead horse at least some of the time.  Ballistically, the Henry cartridge wasn't a whole lot better than the 1860 Army load, so it would be hard to believe it would carry that far and do any damage.  Still a great scene, though!
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on May 24, 2011, 11:07:04 AM
??? I thought Gus got shot in the leg with an arrow. I guess I'll have to watch it again sometime.

That was a later scene when they were in Montana being chased by different Indians (tribe unknown as they "didn't introduce themselves")
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Evelyn Canarvon on May 31, 2011, 10:18:54 PM
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/pedersoli_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm

Read the Pedersoli proof remarks on the trapdoor
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on June 19, 2011, 05:30:11 PM
WOW!  I want one!   

How much do they go for?  I've seen them as high as 1600...that seems kinda high.  I've seen then as low as 1200.  I figured I can haggle for $1000 if I put cash on the counter. 
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Steel Horse Bailey on June 22, 2011, 12:04:59 PM
Doug, did you get your Trapdoor yet?

If so, have fun ... I'm sure you love it.

You were interested in a light load earlier and asked about 45 Colt.  As said already, DON'T try shooting one in your rifle.  I have fired primer-powered 45 Colt WAX bullets (inside-the-garage practice shooting ONLY) but that is the ONLY type I'd bother with. 

As you may know already, the Carbine load was a reduced load from the standard.  They eventually had a load using a 405 gr. bullet or a 300-350 gr. (I don't remember exactly) powered by 55 grs. of BP, but that's as low as they got.

(On a side note, the Military NEVER officially bought ANY Winchester repeating rifles after the few Henrys purchased during the [un]Civil War.  [POSSIBLY some for testing, but not issue.]  Despite what you'll find from the "John Ford Reference Library." {Hollyweird}  Any Winchesters used, and there WERE some, were privately purchased.  I THINK that the first actual repeating rifle purchased by the Army - not sure about the Navy, or when they got their Lees - was the Krag-Jorgenson.  Actual experts like Drydock, Pispitr, River City John can correct me here.)

Back to the topic at hand.  If you reload, there's nothing stopping you from buying some 200-250 gr. bullets (make sure they're sized from .457"-.460") and making a load using 40 grs. of BP WITH fillers or wads to make sure of NO airspace under the bullet and making your own Gallery load.  BP is very forgiving that way ... IF there is no airspace under the bullet!

I envy you - I've wanted one of those H&Rs or even the later Peder-Trapdoors for DECADES!  (I saw my first H&R about 1972, and longed for one since then!)  Unfortunately, my wife thought she needed a second dress or something frivolous like that, so no T-Door for me.

 :o

 ::)

 ;)  ;D

Have fun!
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Pitspitr on June 22, 2011, 01:23:39 PM
Hey Jeff
If you can figure out a way to get to Central Nebraska July 29-31th I'll make sure you can play with one of mine.  :)
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Steel Horse Bailey on June 22, 2011, 01:56:25 PM
Hey Jeff
If you can figure out a way to get to Central Nebraska July 29-31th I'll make sure you can play with one of mine.  :)


Darn friendly of you, Sir!

If only ...

SOMEDAY I'll be able to drag Jed and maybe another pard or 2 and we'll join you at one of your musterds ... er, musters.  We've BOTH lamented numerous times at our inability to get there.

Thanks for the offer.  If I DO get to come, would you mind if I try out some of my Gallery and/or Guard loads from your rifle?  (BP, naturally)  I've about given up trying to get my Sharps Buff Rifle to shoot BP loads dependably.  It'll shoot them-there heathen-fad smokeyless jacketed loads jes fine, but not BP.
 :'(

(Probably my biggest problem is NOT having somewhere past 75-100 yds. to shoot regularly and do a proper work-up.)

Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Pitspitr on June 22, 2011, 02:11:18 PM
Thanks for the offer.  If I DO get to come, would you mind if I try out some of my Gallery and/or Guard loads from your rifle?  (BP, naturally)  I've about given up trying to get my Sharps Buff Rifle to shoot BP loads dependably.  It'll shoot them-there heathen-fad smokeyless jacketed loads jes fine, but not BP.
 :'(

(Probably my biggest problem is NOT having somewhere past 75-100 yds. to shoot regularly and do a proper work-up.)
Absolutely! and bring your buff rifle with you. There will absolutely be plenty of places you can shoot in excess of 100 yards. You just name your poison. 100, 200, 300, 400, 800, 1200 yds. I got them all.
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Steel Horse Bailey on June 22, 2011, 03:03:59 PM
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Doug.38PR on June 23, 2011, 12:03:59 AM
I haven't bought it yet.  Probably going to do so next month or in August (depending on how a few things go)   Looking forward to it.   Speaking of John Ford Reference library.  I remember all his movies having the Cavlary using Trapdoor Carbines and everybody else (cowboys, ranchers etc.) using Winchesters or Henrys.    Fort Apache, She Wore A Yellow Ribbon, Rio Grande, The Searchers, Cheyenne Autumn.   

I look forward to getting this rifle.  It is classic looking and will go well with my U.S. stamped Uberti Schofield 7 inch.    I always like to have long gun hand gun combos for all my guns.

I have a M-1 Carbine and AR-15 to go with a Springfield Armory G.I. 1911A1.   I have two Colt Official Polices and a S&W M-15 to go with a Remington 870 Police Magnum 12 gauge.    I have a S&W M-28 6 inch .357 Magnum and a Python 4 inch and a Ruger Super Blackhawk 10 inch .44 Magnum to go with my Remington 700 .30-06.   

Now I am after a Springfield Trapdoor Carbine to go with my 7 inch Schofield
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Steel Horse Bailey on June 23, 2011, 02:35:36 AM
I love combos!
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Drydock on June 23, 2011, 10:15:00 AM
Especialy the pretzel/pepperoni pizza ones . . . whut?   ???
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: StrawHat on June 24, 2011, 05:42:46 AM
I paired up my 44 Colt Richards conversion with an 1866 Trapdoor barreled action I restocked with the Mississippi musket I got cheap.  44 Colt and 50-70 makes for a smokey afternoon shooting!
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Pitspitr on June 24, 2011, 06:26:12 AM
I love combos!
Sometimes 3 ways and swapping are nice too  :o :o  ;)
My matching uberti Milleniums go nicely with my Uberti '73. My Uberti Schofield goes nicely  with my Pedersoli Trapdoor rifle and my Uberti Colt Cav. model goes nicely with my H&R Officers model trapdoor but sometimes the Schofield goes with the H&R and sometimes the Uberti Colt goes with the Pedersoli. :)
Title: Re: Uberti Springfield Trapdoor Carbine opinions
Post by: Steel Horse Bailey on June 24, 2011, 08:02:49 PM
Like combos, I love choices!

(And yes, the pep/pizza are my faves!)
 ;)