sectioned .44 Henry & .44 Colt compared

[w44wcf]

As Hoof Hearted indicated, the .44 Colt with its heel based bullet has a case capacity that compares to the famous .44 Henry cartridge.

w44wcf 

[w44wcf]

Seth,
The bullet in the .44 Colt pic is from an original, early .44 Colt cartridge.  For use in a converted .45 Colt Henry, my preference would be for a heeled bullet like the one in the .44 Henry Cartridge with its flat point and more generous lube groove. Besides, that would be an exact replication of a bullet used in the original .44 Henry.

I do not yet own a Henry, but plan to some day. Presently I have 2 .44-40's ..... an original '73 and a Marlin Cowboy.

BTW - just what is the correct term for that flat portion of the bullet's nose?

It is "meplat".

w44wcf

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

How about this NEI heeled design?

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html

Go to page 10, mould 450-222-heel,  #277B

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[Mossyrock]

Hmmm...so having a '66 sleeved to .44 Colt as a companion to my R-M and '72 in .44 Colt would be about as close to the original loading as I am likely to get.  So many projects, so little time...and money!

[Bryan Austin]

I have been asking for that for a while now.....THANKS!

SJ

[Mossyrock]

Using the 44 Colt cartridge would certainly get you close, but not "...as close to the original loading as I am likely to get" unless you use a heeled bullet, too.

Ahhh....  but you missed the important part: " as I am likely to get".    I'm not nearly ambitious enough to start messing with a heeled bullet...especially when I am already loading the modern version of the .44 Colt for my open tops.

[Hoof Hearted]

W - As someone who is considering re-chambering my Henry to shoot the 44 Colt w/heeled bullet to better duplicate the original Henry round, I have been following your posts, as well as those by HH and others, very closely.

That's a great photo comparing the two cartridges.  Question - Is that a bullet (on the 44 Colt) suitable for use in a tubular mag?  It looks a little too "pointy".  Is this what you use in your Henry?

Since acquiring my Colt conversions that require the use of a heeled bullet, I have been talking to Bernie Rowles about bullet design, and purchasing samples to try in my Colts.  I was considering using his 248gr. Remington-style heeled bullet in my rifle, but I think the nose on it isn't suitable for use in a tube mag, either, and it looks like it has a wider nose than the bullet in your pic.
BTW - just what is the correct term for that flat portion of the bullet's nose?

Seth

Just tell Bernie you want the mould he made for "Gary"
It is a flat point (much larger meplat) version of the Remington 2 lube groove bullet.
He'll moan and groan, cause it's a PITA for him to make
But it works perfect and he'll do it in a 2 cavity.

HH

[Hoof Hearted]

How about this NEI heeled design?

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html

Go to page 10, mould 450-222-heel,  #277B

Sir Charles

That is a neat design!
The only problem I can see is trying to figure out how to lube the inside the case portion?

HH

[Hoof Hearted]

Thanks HH.  You've come thru for me again.

Now I just need to find someone who can re-barrel and re-chamber my rifle.

Is it a 44-40?
If it is 45 Colt then no need to rebarrel.
I have a guy that does barrel boring and rifleing for a decent price.
Shoot me an email and I'll help ya out some more

buckoff@alltel.net

HH

[w44wcf]

Sir Charles,
Thank you for the link.  Nice looking bullet. If I were to purchase that mold, I would ask if they could make the cavity in a 200 gr. version by "short cherrying" the cavities, making the heel a bit shorter. The heel on that bullet appears to be about .20" long as compared with the .16" heel on the original Henry bullet.   

Savvy Jack,
You are most welcome.

Sir Charles
That is a neat design!
The only problem I can see is trying to figure out how to lube the inside the case portion?
HH

HH,
As we can see, the original Henry was outside lubed only as is the NEI bullet.
Nice that they included a crimping groove at the beginning of the heel.

w44wcf

[Black River Smith]

A cherry is the machinist cutting tool/reamer.  Think they were called cherries back when the bullets were round balls.  Think of a modern round ball grinding tool.  Ball with a stem.  Cherry.

In modern designs, this cutting tool has the grease grooves and shape of the bullet.  That cutter than is used to cut the metal blocks that ultimately become the final bullet mould.

[Hoof Hearted]

HH,
As we can see, the original Henry was outside lubed only as is the NEI bullet.
Nice that they included a crimping groove at the beginning of the heel.

w44wcf

You sure that's a crimping groove?
If so why make it rounded on top and bottom? Maybe, but it really only needs to be a 45 degree cut and straight on the top.

HH

[Hoof Hearted]

Thanks for splainin' that.  I shore am gettin' learned a lot from you guys.

Next question - I've seen hollow point moulds.  They use a pin that gets inserted into the mould on the nose end, presumably prior to pouring in the lead from the base end of the mould.  Is the same method used to make a hollow base bullet?  HH - does that mean Bernie's 225gr 44 Colt heeled hollow base mould is a nose pour mould?  That mould produces a bullet with a point.  Well, it's not a flat nose, anyway.  How does he do it?

Yea it has to be single cavity and it uses a pin to hollow base. The Rapine single cavity hollow base moulds are a better design (just no heel and hollow).
My experience using Gould hollow point moulds is the removeable "pointer" cools very quickly and causes wrinkles and problems. You throw away more bad bullets than good ones that you keep.
Bernie likes the mould and says they fly well but I ain't gonna bother. The remington 248 gr works extremely well and fits all conversions. I have an extra and might be persuaded to sell/trade it.
But REALLY just get the flat point version he made for me and Ottawa Creek Bill. It will do it all and work in a Henry

HH

[w44wcf]

You sure that's a crimping groove?
 HH

HH
Yep. It's a crimping groove.

If so why make it rounded on top and bottom? Maybe, but it really only needs to be a 45 degree cut and straight on the top.
HH

The actual bullet groove profile may be a bit different than the pic, but if it's not, the bullet designer decided to use a radius rather than an angled groove.


Regarding the Gould hollow point mold, I find that prior to placing the pin back into the mold a few seconds in low flame = 100% good bullets.  

w44wcf

[Hoof Hearted]

Thanks w44wcf!

I'm not trying to rub you or anyone else wrong here, just clarifying my opinion which was not well stated above.
That being said:

I think I was trying to explain that there is unnecessary complication involved with the use of hollowpointers as hollowbasers for a mould that you will shoot lots of bullets from. I mean you may shoot nothing but hollowpointed Gould's from a hunting rifle but we are talking about a mould for multiple firearms and I think Seth would appreciate using a two or three cavity mould that is "faster" and "easier" than that.

Bernie makes a hollow base, heeled mould, sorta like the referenced one. He does not know of a way (short of by hand) to lube that groove. If you look close at the depiction that groove really is not in the right place to crimp, it would have to butt against the shoulder of the "proud" or exposed portion.

IMHO it's all too much crap

HH

[w44wcf]

HH,
You are most welcome. I look at our posts  as sharing information so no "rub" here.
I agree that for volume casting the solid point bullets are the only way to go. 

Regarding the groove on the forward portion of the heel on the NEI bullet this larger illustration does show an angle in the crimp groove.


If one were to use that as a lube groove, a custom lube die could be made to fill both grooves at the same time using a lubrisizer.
To use the bullet would be pushed into the die until it stopped. While holding the bullet in the die with the top punch, lubricant pressure would be applied, then released and the bullet removed.

w44wcf
 

[Hoof Hearted]

HH,
You are most welcome. I look at our posts  as sharing information so no "rub" here.
I agree that for volume casting the solid point bullets are the only way to go. 

Regarding the groove on the forward portion of the heel on the NEI bullet this larger illustration does show an angle in the crimp groove.


If one were to use that as a lube groove, a custom lube die could be made to fill both grooves at the same time using a lubrisizer.
To use the bullet would be pushed into the die until it stopped. While holding the bullet in the die with the top punch, lubricant pressure would be applied, then released and the bullet removed.

w44wcf
 

Much better illustration!

By the way good call on the hollow pointer and the flame (although I have way too much invested for open flame in reloading room).
I might try dipping the thing into the lead for a second or two...........

Keep up the good posts

HH

[Hoof Hearted]

Guys - Great info.  I'm not sure if I was clear with my question/intentions.  I don't plan to use a hollow point.  I was just wondering if the hollow base was formed the same way the hollow point is formed by that mould maker - a pin is inserted into the mould.  Is that how Bernie does it, HH?

As to shooting the same bullet in both pistol & rifle - I understand your point about simplicity and speed by using the "rifle" bullet.  I would prefer to shoot a bullet that more closely resembles the original 44 Colt's profile.  Same with the Henry round.  I have no casting experience, but I really enjoy reloading, and I'm excited about adding the casting aspect to the hobby.  Truth be told, I enjoy reloading about as much as I enjoy shooting.  I ask Bernie to make me a 2-cav mould for the rifle using the round HH and OCB designed/developed.

Aaahh, Seth.........

The "hollow point" discussion was pointed towards hollow base, 'cause the same methods apply.
I was only elaborating on it 'cause I figured you would not want to deal with the additional steps/grief/motions required to use a hollow pointer.

HH

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Fantastic photo, thanks. I assume the original balloon head cases for the 44 Colt would have been able to hold just a little bit more powder.

[w44wcf]

DJ,

You are most welcome.  Yes, the original .44 Colt balloon head case would hold 2 more grains of b.p.

w44wcf