Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => 1860 Henry => Topic started by: Speedballalice on June 17, 2020, 03:57:44 PM
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As stated in another thread my "new to me" carbine is shooting 7" low at 25yds with a couple different loads.
Since I only have experience with the Uberti ladder sights installed on rifles I figured I would start my troubleshooting process by asking the forum members about proper sight picture on the carbine.
Please forgive my poor pictures.
Below is the rear sight in question.
The next picture is the sight picture I used. The tip of the front sight placed at the top of the notch in the rear sight.
The third picture is what I'm going to try on my next outing to the range. Tip of front sight placed even with the top of the rear sight. This should help but I think it wont be enough.
The last picture is the "aperture" I have to use to get it zeroed at 25yds.
Thoughts??
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Have any pics of the front sight? If anything I'd assume you have a short front sight.
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Front sight.
I'm sure I can take some material off to bring POI up but 7" at 25yds is quite a bit.
I think I would be down into the wide part of the sight.
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:o Well Krapola :P
Unfortunately it's a Carbine. Drat the luck. Problem # 1. Removing your barrel band may well be problematic. In my past life as a CAS Gunsmith, I found the retaining screw to the barrel band to be completely frozen and the only way to get the band off was to drill out the thread side of the screw, running the band (which I was replacing anyway). Your front sight is too tall or your rear sight is too low or a combination of both (you already know that :)) Considering the rifle changing out the rear sight is probably the "safe" option. Personally, I'd just flip the sight up and live with it rather than risk damage to a very limited production carbine.
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I thought about buying a new front band and filing it down. Save the original. Maybe I could file it down half way and split the difference with a my sight picture. But, if the front band is as hard to remove as you say I may pass and just use the flip up aperature as you suggest. Bummed
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It would look good with a tang sight.
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Drilling and tapping on this one is a no go I'm afraid.
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My carbine shoots high and I just adjusted how I shoot it. But you can get that front sight band off, I got mine off and I dont think it was that hard. Just had a good fitting screw driver and some force, I'm a trained mechanic so a stuck screw or bolt will come out one way or another. But no harm. So go at it on the front band. And I did no grinding or anything just a little persuading
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OK, Nativeshootist has been there done that. To exactly how many rifles have ya worked on there fella??
I speak from the experience of dozens and suggesting an attack of the tools without explaining the possible problems. Oh, and I'm a trained Gunsmith. And Bad screws do come out one way or the other.
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Trying not to get under no ones skin. But I only worked on my own and like most uberti it had very tight screws. I'm just saying it's possible to remove that screw without cutting or filing nothing.
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I will eventually make a weak attempt at getting the front band off. But originality on this particular rifle is more important to me than the sights being perfect. I know its "just an Uberti" but it kind of a rare bird. If it will come off easily I will buy a second one and modify it. If it even puts up the least bit of resistance I'm leaving it be.
I do appreciate all the input from everyone on this and an open to more ideas.
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I will eventually make a weak attempt at getting the front band off. But originality on this particular rifle is more important to me than the sights being perfect. I know its "just an Uberti" but it kind of a rare bird. If it will come off easily I will buy a second one and modify it. If it even puts up the least bit of resistance I'm leaving it be.
I do appreciate all the input from everyone on this and an open to more ideas.
This might sound stupid but what weight boolit are you trying to shoot?? The 44/40 (mostly) does its best with 200grain but near everybody on the forums wants to shoot heavier boolits in it - why absolutely escapes me, but its like an infectious disease.
7inches low at 25 yards ? something is haywire with that - we have one of those Uberti carbines - it shoots a 200grain Blackpowder load to POA at 25 and 50 yards - no filing required and certainly has not had half its front sight removed .
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I cast a NEI 454230 hollow base bullet. It usually runs between 240-250grains. It's a great black powder bullet with two good size lube grooves. It works really good in my Schofield and SAA. It's what I have and was hoping it would work well in this rifle too.
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:) Well Schucks ;)
I hadn't thought everything through (sometimes I don't think at all :P). I shoot a bunch of different Uberti 45 Colt brass rifles. Henrys and '66s, and a 44 Special/Russian Trapper. I don't shoot big 'Ol heavy bullets in any of them. In the 45s, the heaviest bullet I shoot is a 200Gr RNFP. Heaviest bullet in the 44 Trapper is 165Gr RNFP.
While I use to shoot that Heathen Fad smokeless stuff, I have seen the light and now shoot smoky stuff. It has made NO difference the propellent. ALL of my Uberti Brass guns shoot pretty much to point of aim with the lighter bullets. Even 160Gr .45 flying ashtrays.
I would not go chopping and channeling your sights until you piddle with different bullets. Trying to shoot "whatcha got" is not so Bueno. Often you will have to find what the rifle likes. Kind of like trying to feed Broccoli to a three year old ;D
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Mine seems to shoot to point of aim. I have shot .45 Colt 2F and a 250 gr Lyman bullet. I think it is the 454190. I have also shot Schofield with a 200 gr and 3F. No smokeless yet.
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I cast a NEI 454230 hollow base bullet. It usually runs between 240-250grains. It's a great black powder bullet with two good size lube grooves. It works really good in my Schofield and SAA. It's what I have and was hoping it would work well in this rifle too.
yep - shooting a boolit one fourth heavier again than what that Uberti was designed around - try a 200grain - RCBS cowboy mold is good in ours - the 200grain LEE mold is a nice shape boolit but lube grooves deficient for blackpowder - maybe you can cadge a handful of lighter boolits to try - but I bet it helps.
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Y'all have it backwards. While it makes less difference in a rifle than a handgun for sure, shooting a lighter bullet would, if anything, make it impact lower, and it is already too low.
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That was my understanding also. That a heavier bullet should shoot higher. Given the fact that it has only been to the range once so far I'm not going to judge it to harshly yet.
I just got me a new lyman 454190 mold that I'm going to try with some unique in 45 colt cases. I'm just going to try some different combos and try to enjoy this rifle. Maybe I'll stumble across something that shoots a bit higher in the process. The lyman casts about 10gr heavier than the NEI and has a flat base otherwise the bullet profile is almost identical.
I also may try it at 100yds with the sight flipped up. If it's pretty close I may call it good. Although I'm still not opposed to throwing a 44-40 barrel on it, just wish they were 20".
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Y'all have it backwards. While it makes less difference in a rifle than a handgun for sure, shooting a lighter bullet would, if anything, make it impact lower, and it is already too low.
How would that work?????heavier boolit, less velocity, = more drop whatd I miss here ??????
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How would that work?????heavier boolit, less velocity, = more drop whatd I miss here ??????
Generally, a heavier bullet has lower velocity, hence more time in the barrel. It also generates more recoil, so the muzzle rises more. Thus there is more muzzle rise before the bullet exits the barrel, leading to a higher point of impact. Bullet drop may be a factor at longer distances.
CC Griff
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Generally, a heavier bullet has lower velocity, hence more time in the barrel. It also generates more recoil, so the muzzle rises more. Thus there is more muzzle rise before the bullet exits the barrel, leading to a higher point of impact. Bullet drop may be a factor at longer distances.
CC Griff
I am bamboozled but unconvinced ???
only way to change that is shoot it out meself -----------------
Rifle recoils before boolit leaves barrel ??????? really !!!
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:) Hey Greyhawk ;)
:D Yepper. Simple Physics. For every action there be an equal but opposite reaction. Recoil begins the instant the projectile begins its' forward travel.
Hide and Watch ;)
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Rifle recoils before boolit leaves barrel ??????? really !!!
Remember that it only has to begin to recoil. It takes a very small amount of movement to affect the point of impact by a few inches...
CC Griff
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Generally, a heavier bullet has lower velocity, hence more time in the barrel. It also generates more recoil, so the muzzle rises more. Thus there is more muzzle rise before the bullet exits the barrel, leading to a higher point of impact. Bullet drop may be a factor at longer distances.
CC Griff
I have found that with pistols, either revolvers or semi-autos, that velocity is neutral in predicting POI, but that weight of bullet does change POI by raising it with heavier projectiles and dropping POI when a lighter projectile is fired.
Long guns are a different matter, each one a law to itself. In my experience with Winchester style leverguns the the POI changes with a more powerful load. If anyone uses one for both hunting loads and "pop-ting" shooting the difference can be disconcerting. The heavy loads shoot LOWER!
NOTE:I corrected my post.
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Remember that it only has to begin to recoil. It takes a very small amount of movement to affect the point of impact by a few inches...
CC Griff
you guys are trickin with me
every rifle I ever shot put a heavier boolit lower with equal charge behind it
more bamboozled ----less convinced
only cure is gonna be powder smoke
need an excuse so thats all good
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Not neither!! ::)
Bamboozle is not (necessarily) in my Lexicon. I make no claims about up or down with projectile weight. I'm just sharing the information that Recoil begins the instant the projectile begins to move.
After the projectile begins it's movement, you guys are on yer own.
Hyde and Watch
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Not neither!! ::)
Bamboozle is not (necessarily) in my Lexicon. I make no claims about up or down with projectile weight. I'm just sharing the information that Recoil begins the instant the projectile begins to move.
After the projectile begins it's movement, you guys are on yer own.
Hyde and Watch
I shall make smoke and report back in doo course
Easily bamboozeled these days (twas never much of a challenge anyway)
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It is true that I am most familiar with the phenomenon as it relates to revolvers. That has been well-established, but I am less certain that it transfers to pistol caliber rifles. I would love to see the results of your experimentation.
CC Griff
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A recent trip to Wyoming and having to go back to work this week has kept me from persuing this problem. I have made up some varying reloads to experiment with the next time I get to the range.
464190 lyman bullet over 30gr 2f OE in Schofield case
424230 nei bullet over same.
454190 over Red dot in a colt case
454190 over unique in a colt case.
I have yet to try the lyman bullet I just bought the mold right before my trip.
The bullet profile is nearly identical to the NEI without the hollow base.it also casts out 10gr heavier.
Hoping to get these to the range within the next couple weeks.
I also tried removing the front barrel band screw. Like coffinmaker stated it's in pretty tight. Although I didnt crank on it super hard as my screwdriver was not a perfect fit.
Anyhow, I'm hoping to find a sight picture and load that shoots acceptable in this carbine at some point. Keeping my finger crossed that I can find a combo that will work without using the fold up peep sight. And hopefully it's a blackpowder load too. :)
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Ok, I just read your other post (I had to know what was special about this carbine). Rather than hash about removing stubborn Uberti screws or intimacies of bullet weight, velocity & POI.
Noted the barrel length is 20", rather than the 19" they've made for quite some time.
If I read that correctly, here's my take. The barrel band/ front sight is very likely the same as used on the standard 19". The juncture of the barrel & mag tube will put pressure on the barrel (thus causing a noticeable impact shift) In other words they should ( my opinion) have designed a new mag tube/sight band for the different barrel length.
Regards,
Slim
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I shall make smoke and report back in doo course
Easily bamboozeled these days (twas never much of a challenge anyway)
Mr Coffinmaker ...here 'tis ....my effort to prove a point ....think we should call this one a draw - the house got all our bet money !
You reckoned heavy boolit would shoot higher - I bet it would go lower
Loaded 20 rounds Remmy brass, Federal Large Rifle primers, all with 37.5 grains of BP, no wads no grease cookie,
10 got the Cast Boolit Engineering 225 grain Flatnose 10 got the LEE 429 x200 which at my place weighs in around 205 to 208 grains depending on what I had for breakfast on that casting day.
Shooting at 50 yards, fired alternately onto two targets side by side CBE- 1,3,5,7,9 on LH ----LEE - 2,4,6,8,10 on RH
1 and 2 cold barrel shots low - the CBE shots are strung vertical (could be my eyes - sights are not ideal and I dont see em real well anymore) , LEE 4.6.8.10 makes a better group - but center it all and there looks no appreciable difference in height of the strike at 50 yards - between the two different boolit weights
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Then I went and fired five more of the LEE, walked up and checked, back, fired five more of the CBE so that made 20 all up - neither of these boolits hold near enough lube for BP and that shows clear on this target - the first ten went ok - but the last five was more of a buckshot splatter than anything else.
This is a 66 Uberti 24" rifle - - its my "how fast can ya go gun" -- run it hard and I can get 15 to 18 shots at 25 yards using the CBE boolit without fouling bad - this is a one minute event - we start standing clear, gun empty, load and fire as many as you can, no race guns have appeared yet, 20 guys on the line at once firing full throttle black loads was kinda fun. (we got old! down to about ten these days)
ooops - the cardboard is two feet wide - ignore the big hole in the middle
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Check my post. I trimmed a tad over 0.1" inch off the front sight and brought it up to POI being about 1.5" above POA at 20 yards. The rear notch was still wide enough for a good sight picture.