Author Topic: Who is the best shooter ever?  (Read 2194 times)

Offline G Bulldog Grainisland III

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2021, 09:46:39 AM »
Well, About flamenco, it is really annoying that every time that they mention Spain, they allways talk about Flamenco and bullfighting, which are music and culture from the south of the country. I am from north Spain, and flamenco is not music, and by the way, I don’t like it at all. And none of my friends like it, The same abou bullfightings. And 90% of the Spaniards agree with me, they don’t like or identify themselves with neither of both,

About the Russian shooter, everything about that guy applies here,,he is the greatest Centerfire ISSF shooter in history, setting a World record that is yet to be beaten...and with a wheel gun, beating ultra modern Morinis, Walther, Pardinis, Tesros, Benellis...

What you can learn from the Russian school of shooting and from one of these guys, is much. Far more than from Miculek or from mediatic Hickockock, whose videos have taught me nothing.  Much speed in the first case....unrealistic speed, where you empty your magazine in 1 1/2 seconds...shooting at large areas of and IPSC target. Much fun, yes, but nothing good to be learnt.

Those technics, based on IPSC, speed, and tactical mind, have spoiled the law enforcement training, creating 3 generations of police officers who can’t hit a torso or head at 15 meters, but who will spray a ton of bullets at amazing speed....at the suspect, his mom and the near bystander.

Jeff Cooper spoiled the shooting panorama with his IPSC....he destroyed bulls eye shooting and instinctive shooting too, replacing it with a dinamic discipline that is unrealistic. .Because  what works is the old school. The Russian guy , and Scanaker or Keith Sanderson represent the fundamentals of shooting. That is useful. It is accuracy and also speed (  Center fire ISSF  includes a 3 second duelling stance, and Rapid fire pistol is 50% speed 50 pure accuracy)

 ,Miculek, however, and in my opinion,  represents the stupidity of the postmodern times in the shooting panorama, specially in the USA, that we are living since the 80s, when Jeff Cooper, gun writers and the industry killed Bullseye, labeling it as “static” and useless. So wrong. It is the base of everything in shooting.

What it has to do with guns of the old West? The old timers used their guns like the Russian guy does: with markmanship. Ammo was expensive, every shot should reach the target and it was better to have the enemy far away, that’s why long barrels in revolvers.

It is CAS and IPSC what have nothing to do with the Old West. Nothing at all.

Pd: I can also hit a target at 1000 yards , Miculek style, with a 9mm...let me try 100 times before....and do the video at time 101.

But it must be a balloon on a steel plate....ok? So that the bullet and steel fragments will explode the balloon anyway, even if I don’t hit the balloon.

Miculek, you are the best! The Russian guy should learn from you!

About your amazing speed with the wheel gun....I will try one of these days....but using recoil less anemic loads as you do...air gun type..

Using undersized 9mm bullets in a 38 also lowers recoil...

Hmm, I was going to say that this is worst piece of drivel I've seen in very long time.
But then I read what you said about Russia....
That is the real winner!

-Bulldog

Offline llanerosolitario

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2021, 11:16:37 AM »
Why do you think so? You should give good grounded opinions, step by step.

At least, my opinions are grounded...by the way, Miculek himself is a great critical of the Jeff Cooper’s Weaver stance, for example.

Please debunk that Miculek uses a “trick” to shoot balloons....at amazing distances..

And please give me a proof that Cas has “much to do” with how guns were used in the Old West.......

In Russia, and also in Germany,  target shooting became something scientific...since the 70’s...since then on, they have become “unbeatable” in Rapid fire, Center Fire and Free pistol events.....much to learn from these people, that will have inmediato use in improving our groups...static, but the fundamentals of shooting.







Offline DeaconKC

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2021, 04:19:47 PM »
Sir, I have had the pleasure of meeting Jerry Miculek and am happy to tell you he is one of most genuinely nice people you could ever meet. And he is just as talented and skilled as anyone human could be. He admits this is due to countless hundreds of rounds of ammunition he has put down range. Would he be dangerous in a combat situation? I don't know, he has the technical skills, but does he have the ability to function in a gunfight or combat? You never know until someone is in a life or death situation.
Colonel Jeff Cooper Was in combat and proved himself. Yes, he was a strong advocate of the Weaver Stance but as the use of body armor increased, he also taught the Isosceles Stance so you had your armor squared up for maximum protection.
Shooting under the rigors of competition is an incredible discipline but should never be confused for what happens in a gunfight when your adrenaline is rushing through your body.
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2021, 04:36:46 PM »

OK.  IF youz won't quit feeding the TROLL, YER ON YER OWN.

Offline llanerosolitario

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2021, 05:55:17 PM »
Sir, I have had the pleasure of meeting Jerry Miculek and am happy to tell you he is one of most genuinely nice people you could ever meet. And he is just as talented and skilled as anyone human could be. He admits this is due to countless hundreds of rounds of ammunition he has put down range. Would he be dangerous in a combat situation? I don't know, he has the technical skills, but does he have the ability to function in a gunfight or combat? You never know until someone is in a life or death situation.
Colonel Jeff Cooper Was in combat and proved himself. Yes, he was a strong advocate of the Weaver Stance but as the use of body armor increased, he also taught the Isosceles Stance so you had your armor squared up for maximum protection.
Shooting under the rigors of competition is an incredible discipline but should never be confused for what happens in a gunfight when your adrenaline is rushing through your body.


I had the pleasure of meeting Miculek too, Shot Show, maybe 2016, don’t remember exactly the year,  while signing autographs. He was receiving everybody with a smile, and he signed me a dedicated photo to my gun club.

Personally, I have nothing againts him, thougth I know he plays tricks...and I don’t have him as my example of a great shooter. Why? Because he has nothing or little to teach me, besides speed. Speed is show. Speed is not all.

These russian shooters are the opposite to Miculek,,,non mediatic, scientific, and deadly accurate. They are not specially nice, can’t speak English in most cases and talk little.  The best shooters in the World are the Russians...or maybe, the Germans. Because shooting is a discipline for them, more than a game.

A guy who can hit 5 targets, 10 cms each, in 4 seconds, one hand, 25 meters, and do it almost 12 time more, or who can hit a 2” area even in rapid fire 56 out of 60 times, with a Centerfire revolver and no optics, is a great serious marksman, because that is markmanship....

a guy who can empty 12 rounds in less than 2 seconds from a revolver  shooting recoiless specially prepared ammo at a huge target at 7 yards...or who makes everybody think he hits balloons at 1000 yards when in  fact it is the bullet and steel fragments doing it, is a showman and has little to teach me.

Miculek is the best shooter in the World...in the USA....outside there he is no one. However, The Russian shooter is the best shooter in the World...in  Latin America, Assia, Europe, Africa, and Oceania.


Miculek has all the shooting abilities to figth ( surviving is also a matter of uncontrolled situations) in a combat situation, no doubt, Every person in this phorum  probably has them. The problem is the example he gives and what he is selling to people. He is selling nothing of real practical use in both defense and fundamental target shooting. It wont help you to shoot smaller groups, know your faults more, and improve your gun more, because what matters is only one thing: speed...show. Speed must be used when it is needed, accuracy too.

This an example: a precise, well placed handgun shot would have solved the situation with zero risk to the cars in the background. However, they preferred to used a shotgun and buckshot instead  a wrong decision, for the risk implied  to people around..but policemen are no longer trained in serious bulls eye, useful in this type of situations.

(First 2 minutes)



About Colonel Cooper, there is controversy and it seems that in fact, he was never really in combat and even less in a handgun combat situation. During WW2 he was stationed in a ship, and in Korea he was not in combat situations. The lightness of how he talked about war in Guns ammo, make me think he never really lived a war.

He changed combat shooting techniques but not for ever, as time has proved they were, in fact quite unrealistic, and that process of questioninig his teachings took place on both sides of the pond by authors who really were in combat situations specially after his death when some dared to questioning him.

Here in Europe, Nothern Ireland and the IRA, the streets of the Basque Country and the terrorist activity there, the Red Army Faction in Germany, the Red Bigrades in Italy, the Islamic terrorism, the organized east Europe criminal bands, provided many examples of armed encounters that made several authors  observe, and even live, that all the teachings based on Coopers wriong ideas were not  working.

Reality matters. His techniques didn’t improve police shooting...he destroyed all the lessons from the past by destroying instinct shooting as a concept, bulls eye training, and  one hand shooting and the isosceles stance.

It worked!



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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #25 on: Today at 01:06:24 AM »

Offline greyhawk

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2021, 03:19:26 AM »
Of course is not J. Miculek, but russian shooter Mikhail Nestruev is.....no one has reached or beaten his World record in Centerfire pistol ISSF...594 points, 60 rounds, 600 Maxim points theorically possible....all with a 40 years old Toz 49 revolver, possibly, the most accurate wheel gun in the World....plus his 29  Golds in International competitions in Free pistol (50 meters one hand held pistol in 22 lr) and 10 meters air gun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Nestruyev

Lets say that this guy was able to consecutively punch holes 99% of the time,  in a 2” inch area, 60 times, one hand held, no optics, at a distance of 25 meters..,...

Toz 49 revolver...probably the most accurate revolver ever made. Some were sold commercially in Europe and still can be found in Cezch Rep and Slovakia.

http://olympicshootingmuseum.com/tenp/sptoz49.htm



Hats off colonel, and long live Russia!

Your russian is a genius at what he does  - so is Michulek, so was Bob Munden and so were a bunch of others - all different

Bulls eye pistol shooting is dead boring - boring to watch boring to do - and the higher ranked the bullseye pistol shooters are the more boring and arrogant they seem to be (have seen a few olympic champs in action - not nice folk at all)

I do it (bullseye pistol shooting) 6 times a year in order to keep a pistol licence so I can go have some fun at other shoots.

I have watched numerous Michulek videos - seemed to me he was shooting factory level loaded ammo - up to and including some impressive speed shooting with a 500S&W mag - we may not learn much from watching but he sure aint boring.
 

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2021, 07:05:21 PM »
I think our Spanish Troll is posting under a new name. He got the message and dropped out.

What gave him away was his trashing of Jeff Cooper.

Cooper was the advocate of defensive pistol craft. He didn't care much for bulls eye or plinking or any other shooting game.

"The matter is not settled by the first round fired or the number of rounds fired, but by the first round that hits the intended mark."

True then and now.

He also said that Olympic fencing was to sword fighting as Combat Pistol Shooting is to bulls eye shooting. No comparison.

Comparing the shooting sports is like comparing auto racing sports. Apples and oranges.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline llanerosolitario

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2021, 07:59:43 AM »
I think our Spanish Troll is posting under a new name. He got the message and dropped out.

What gave him away was his trashing of Jeff Cooper.

Cooper was the advocate of defensive pistol craft. He didn't care much for bulls eye or plinking or any other shooting game.

"The matter is not settled by the first round fired or the number of rounds fired, but by the first round that hits the intended mark."

True then and now.

He also said that Olympic fencing was to sword fighting as Combat Pistol Shooting is to bulls eye shooting. No comparison.

Comparing the shooting sports is like comparing auto racing sports. Apples and oranges.

It is your opinion, anyway, as mine is mine. I just don’t give much value to anything coming from Jeff Cooper, whose  gun kwoledge was, in my opinion, very limited,

ISSF bulls eye includes Rapid fire pistol, in other words, speed, and Centerfire pistol, with a duelling time part. It is not only,,,hitting a target. It is the fundamentals of shooting, but not everything for self defense.

Anyway, Jeff Cooper is no longer a reference in pistol shooting. We should have that in mind. he talked, wrote and taught about it, but he was never engaged in a self defense situation. He was a guru..people listened to him because he was kind of a “church” leader.

Applegate and Fairbairn, however, had first hand combat experience in both WW2 and Hong Kong police..

As what I can say here is of little value as I mr no one, I will share Rex Applegate last speech in Seattle, 1998, during a meeting with Police instructors: his critical view about the nephastous Cooper influenced postmodernist shooting techniques were, sadly, confirmed by time.

____________________________________
REX APPLEGATES SPEECH
February, 1998 Seattle Washington

"Gentlemen, I want to dispose of an unanswered question which is probably on your minds, the age of that old buzzard now speaking on the platform. I will be 84 next June, and I assure you that I have no career or economic axe to grind. In my role as a contrarian, I realize that some of you may consider me to be a voice from the past, however, what I'm going to say to you, involves my evaluation of the handgun training which most of you are currently giving to your officers and recruits. Although I am addressing your group here in Washington State, what I have to say also applies to ALL handgun firearms trainers in the U.S. Military and Law Enforcement.

In case you are not aware of it, the national average of police hits in firefight situations which criminals is approximately 15%. This disgraceful level of proficiency has remained almost the same over the past many years. During this time, the Weaver, two handed sighted stance has dominated in training, even for close quarter combat, to the exclusion of better battle-tested techniques.

It is my opinion, that most of you have been "brainwashed' into believing that the Weaver is the only way to shoot a handgun in combat. Actually, the Weaver was developed as a means to achieve great expertise in the sport of combat competition shooting. Unfortunately, it `breaks down' under stress and instinctive shooter reactions, which take place in close quarter, life threatening combat situations. Irrespective of this, you have continued to train with it, even though over 50% of all police shootings take place at distances of less than 30 feet, under conditions where there is no time, light or opportunity for the mandatory use of sights as required by the Weaver stance. Now, you would think that any serious firearms trainer would be looking to improve training of police shooters at close quarters so as to increase their hit factor. Still, this has not been the case.

WE NEED TO PAUSE HERE

Rex has just stood before a huge group of firearms trainers and gave them a direct shot in the educational groin. Vanity runs deep with police officers and I doubt anyone has spoken to them with such candor. We could stop here and leave Rex's words as sufficient. But in his failing and limited time on earth the old battle horse isn't about to take a shot and ride off into the sunset. Rex is working with high capacity and hitting this target with every shot. As Rex has said, he has no economic or other axe to grind. This is from the heart and based on an incredible life of real experience.


"-Before the world war I and during the world war II, period, most police and military handgun training for actual combat involved shooting on the range with one hand at bullseye targets. At this time most training consists of using two hands to do practically the same thing. You also use numerical scores, almost entirely based on sighted shots, to determine whether or not the officer is fully trained for actual close quarter combat. In reality, you men are only half trained. They certainly are not adequately trained for t hose situations where most of their actual combat encounters will take place.

The police and the military have been u sing handguns in mortal combat for several centuries, and there is a proven history of successful handgun use in combat. Irrespective of t his, the modern technique of the pistol published by Gunsite Press in 1991, is now declared by the `experts and gurus' to be the basis from which almost all current police handgun training is derived.

Actually, the Weaver stance cannot be validated on the basis of actual combat experience. In fact, it is the `new kid on the block.' It merits are based on almost solely, on the opinion of those gun writers and self-proclaimed, or `media-made gurus' who have been promoting it over the years. I consider this a disservice to most police and military recruits who have been solely trained in this technique. Currently, this is an escalating though controversial issue of primary and vital importance to all of law enforcement.

For those of you who do not know, I have long been an advocate of the single hand point shooting technique, a combat tested, historically proven, and authenticated method of using the handgun in close quarter, life threatening situations. It is diametrically opposed to most of the basic precepts of the Weaver technique. Also believe me when I say that if there were any other proven way to improve police handgun performance in close combat, I would be for it, even if it involved standing on your head. I hope that now you can approach this subject with an `open mind.' Remember, your main concern and primary objective should always be how to teach your officers and recruits to survive and successfully conclude handgun firefights-which mostly occur at close quarters.“.








Offline G Bulldog Grainisland III

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2021, 08:27:19 AM »
^
Average police officer not hitting torso at 12 meters?
Really??
In your neck of the woods???
Not in mine, and don't think so for most of world's LEO's.
While not an LEO, I do think your claim is borderline insulting.

I think average police officer will hit torso at 12 meters just fine.
To do that when the guy is shooting back is another kettle of fish. A two-way conversion with firearms is not rapid fire at range or an IPSC stage.

That has not that much to do with 'bull eyes skill good' or 'Cooper and practical shooting bad' if you ask me.

-Bulldog

Offline llanerosolitario

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2021, 08:36:47 AM »
Are you sure ? London, Canada.




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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #30 on: Today at 01:06:24 AM »

Offline llanerosolitario

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2021, 08:47:40 AM »
^
Average police officer not hitting torso at 12 meters?
Really??
In your neck of the woods???
Not in mine, and don't think so for most of world's LEO's.
While not an LEO, I do think your claim is borderline insulting.

I think average police officer will hit torso at 12 meters just fine.
To do that when the guy is shooting back is another kettle of fish. A two-way conversion with firearms is not rapid fire at range or an IPSC stage.

That has not that much to do with 'bull eyes skill good' or 'Cooper and practical shooting bad' if you ask me.

-Bulldog

Not with one shot,,,the average hitting rate in police combat situations is around 15%...that’s why so many rounds fired in the average encounter.

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2021, 10:37:25 AM »
Are you sure ? London, Canada.




I nailed you, didn't I? You are the Spanish Troll that raised so much sh!t here a few years back with the same message until you got shut down.

The incident in the video took place in London, ENGLAND, Not Canada.

Please -keep your ill-informed opinions to yourself. No one cares and we are not your audience for airing them.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline llanerosolitario

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2021, 02:26:28 PM »
 No sir, it is London Canada. I lived in London for a time...UK police cars are Volvos and BMWS with a different colour patron.

It seems to me that Jeff Cooper is untouchable for some people....but only in the Us, of course. In the rest  of the World he was never highly regarded...except maybe in the English speaking World.



Offline llanerosolitario

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2021, 09:26:15 AM »
Another video....not all fights are at close distances...and good bulls eye training can be useful in situations like this one..at distances of 20 meters or more.

By the way, police officers aiming at each other, putting themselves in the line of fire, standing behind  their mates and aiming at the head level....a terrible training.


Offline Marshal Halloway

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Re: Who is the best shooter ever?
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2021, 11:54:04 AM »
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