Author Topic: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901  (Read 56276 times)

Offline Drydock

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2009, 11:05:43 AM »
BTT.  This list needs to be stickied, and added to the battle rifle standards on the web site.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2009, 11:43:14 AM »
BTT.  This list needs to be stickied, and added to the battle rifle standards on the web site.
So it shall be!
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Offline Hangtown Frye

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2010, 03:27:11 PM »
The issue handgun for British Cavalry Other Ranks (almost all Lancers, and Senior Sergeants for other Cavalry regiments) up until 1877 was the P1840 single-shot, smooth-bore percussion pistol. Not that I can imagine anyone in his right mind wanting to use one in a competition, but there it is. ;)  Officers were of course a whole different deal.

Of note is that OR's in the Columbia Detachment of the Royal Engineers (active in British Columbia from 1858-1872) were all issued Navy Colts (as Grant says, made in London), due to the possibility of conflict with the American miners, all of whom were known to be packing revolvers.  Kinda cool, what?

Cheers!

Gordon

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #23 on: Today at 11:54:53 PM »

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2010, 04:47:37 PM »
Hangtown Frye;  The London Colt Navy was the issue revolver for cavalry troopers in Canada from 1854 until just before 1885.  I didn't know about the Columbia detachment using them. 

When the sappers went to Yale in 1858 to confront Ned McGowan they were shot at from Hills Bar, across the Fraser River but were ordered not to respond.  I thought all they had was the issue rifled musket.  There were Royal Marines following on as back up but they held up at Hope.  The crisis was settled amicably, without gunfire when Ned paid a fine for assaulting a peace officer.  Before Judge Begbie left Yale, Ned invited him to Hills Bar for a banquet.  That was the end of "Ned McGowan's War."

I have read that civilian railway construction Navvies sent to the Crimea were issued London Navy's
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2010, 07:06:46 PM »
It is not well known the first "military issue" repeating handgun acquired by the United Kingdom was, in fact, the Model 1851 "Navy" Colt!

With the Crimean conflict looming large, The Board of Ordnance/War Department purchased approximately 23,700 London Colt Navy revolvers, beginning in March of 1854.  Almost 10,000 of them went to the Royal Navy, and approximately 5,000 went to the Crimea for Land Service, primarily for use by officers and sergeants major of infantry, but also with "emergency issue" authorised to Lancers, and to Dragoon and Hussar sergeants major and trumpeters, in lieu of the regulation single-shot percussion pistols mentioned by Gordon ..... 

It was not until 31 August 1855 and 3 January 1856 that contracts were placed, respectively, for British-designed revolvers - i.e.  300 "Revolvers, Dean & Adams improved on Beaumont's principle, with appurtenances" and 2,000 "Pistols, revolving, Dean & Adams' patent, with Lieutenant Beaumont's improvement, 54 gauge".

In late 1868, conversion by J. Adams of existing Dean & Adams percussion revolvers for self-contained metallic cartridges was approved (ultimately becoming known as the Mark I Adams) and in 1870, the Mark II and Mark III Adams built-as-breechloader revolvers were approved.   However, as Gordon has indicated, Adams revolvers were not approved for issue to cavalry until 1878.

Interestingly, Adams revolvers were adopted in for issue to Canada's North West Mounted Police in 1874.
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Texas Lawdog

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2010, 12:07:51 PM »
I've got a 1901 Colt Army revolver that I plan on bringing to the Muster this year. I bought some BP 38 Colt ammo for it. It saw service in the Philippines by the Army and the Scouts until after WW2.
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Offline Hangtown Frye

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2010, 06:01:22 PM »

When the sappers went to Yale in 1858 to confront Ned McGowan they were shot at from Hills Bar, across the Fraser River but were ordered not to respond.  I thought all they had was the issue rifled musket.  There were Royal Marines following on as back up but they held up at Hope.  The crisis was settled amicably, without gunfire when Ned paid a fine for assaulting a peace officer.  Before Judge Begbie left Yale, Ned invited him to Hills Bar for a banquet.  That was the end of "Ned McGowan's War."

Yup, I'm very familiar with Ned McGowan's War.  He was quite a character, being involved in many shootings and lynchings in San Francisco before taking a midnight ship just ahead of the Vigilance Committee's representatives.  No many folks made their names infamous in two countries, but he managed to!  Colonel Moody's restraint and politic demeanor probably prevented a serious outbreak, and perhaps even a war between the US and Great Britain over the whole of British Columbia.  Fascinating stuff there.

Anyway, for those other folks reading this, there is a ton of great information on the Columbia Detachment of the Royal Engineers, including Ned McGowan's War, here: http://www.royalengineers.ca/

Cheers!

Gordon

Offline Hangtown Frye

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2010, 06:06:42 PM »
Interestingly, Adams revolvers were adopted in for issue to Canada's North West Mounted Police in 1874.

A good friend of mine used to use his 1872 Adams for CAS events back in the late '80's, along with his Civilian Spencer.  He could trace his Adams to Ft. Garry in 1874, making him, with his DA revolver, the most authentic "Westerner" at the shoots.  Luckily the guys running the event weren't retentive about SASS rules and didn't mind him shooting it at all.  It's not like he was going to win or anything, and it WAS very cool!

Then there's the friend of mine who would portray Jerry Potts...

Cheers!

Gordon

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2010, 07:04:41 PM »
Hangtown;  Here is the book on McGowans War;

http://www.amazon.ca/McGowans-War-Donald-Hauka/dp/1554200016/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1262480363&sr=1-1-fkmr1

I live in British California, at Fort Victoria.  I truly believe that Ned's failure to foment an anti-British backlash during the goldrush on Fraser's River was the foundation of British Columbia.
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2010, 08:43:58 PM »
Gordon:

1872 Adams, you say?

I have the good fortune to have one among my toys ....  ;D

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Hangtown Frye

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2010, 10:55:50 PM »
Hangtown;  Here is the book on McGowans War;

http://www.amazon.ca/McGowans-War-Donald-Hauka/dp/1554200016/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1262480363&sr=1-1-fkmr1

I live in British California, at Fort Victoria.  I truly believe that Ned's failure to foment an anti-British backlash during the goldrush on Fraser's River was the foundation of British Columbia.

I like that: "British California".  :)

But you're right, Colonel Moody's actions probably clinched the deal for Britain, and Canada, to hold the continent from Atlantic to the Pacific north (mostly  ;)) of the 49th.

Cheers!

Gordon

Offline Hangtown Frye

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2010, 11:01:54 PM »
Gordon:

1872 Adams, you say?

I have the good fortune to have one among my toys ....  ;D



Yup, that's the critter, to be sure.  Very nice, well made guns. I'm not sure if he still has it, though.  I certainly hope so, as I always admired the fact that he used it for a Canadian impression. He was born in Vancouver, after all.  :)

Right now I'm looking to trade into a nice late-model (fluted cylinder) Webley RIC in .450.  Always liked the little round, even if it's not quite sufficient for dropping Zulu's or Pathan's in their tracks. Still a great little gun!

Cheers!

Gordon

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2010, 04:13:27 AM »
..... Right now I'm looking to trade into a nice late-model (fluted cylinder) Webley RIC in .450.  Always liked the little round, even if it's not quite sufficient for dropping Zulu's or Pathan's in their tracks. Still a great little gun!

Being a British revolver addict, I have an RIC New Model revolver also... an Army & Navy C.S.L. marked one ..... albeit chambered in .455.  It is quite accurate, and a pleasure to shoot ......


Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Raven

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2010, 08:08:50 PM »
Hi Drydock,

Would you consider adding the Remington Army and Navy conversions to the list of Primary Milspec Handguns.

"While there is no documentation it is believed by collectors and Historians that the government was secretly ingaged in the use, fabrication, and/or purchase of both Colt and Remington conversions well before the expiration of the Rollin White patent.
Remington conversions were in the hands of the troops well before June 1868."

"This fact is documented by the "Statement of Ordnance and Ordnance Stores" submitted to the 2nd Session of Congress by Congressman Butler of Massachusetts, based on a report of ordnance and ordnance stores on hand compiled by the Chief of Ordnance stating that a total of 16,958,799 Army-size pistol cartridges of .46 caliber on hand, consisting of 1,955,783 in the hands of the troops and another 15,003,016 stored at Arsenals and Armories."

The Remington conversion was chambered for the .46 rimfire.

 "The Navy was offered the new Colt SAA revolvers, Remington converted Army revolvers and Remington converted Navy revolvers, but due to lack of funds, elected to convert its exsting percussion revolvers. It had roughly 1000 Remington New Model Navy percussion revolvers on hand, which had been in service since the Civil War."

In August of 1875 various Navy bases were ordered to send their Remington percussion revolvers to the factory for conversion.

While records of Odnance Department Colt conversions are better documented, 1,138 Richards conversions and 2,097 Navy Richards Mason conversions, it apears that Remington revolvers were converted in comparable numbers. The conversion revolvers of the post Civil War era were a stop gap measure and I would be reluctant to say that any one of them was a Primary Handgun on it's own.

Reference: A Study of Colt Conversions and Other Percussion Revolvers by R. Bruce Mc Dowell

Yours
Jay Strite

P.S. I you haven't read it allready please please read my post - Ordnance Officer Impression


Offline Drydock

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2010, 09:10:34 PM »
The Remington was not technicaly a "primary" milspec handgun. Like the M1917s to the M1911 in the first world war, it is considered a secondary, or substitute standard.  It is, however, a significant military handgun, and is of demonstrated military use, both in its percussion and conversion forms, and as such is welcome in our compitions when paired with an appropriate longarm.  The list at the beginning of this thread was simply to list the Primary, or Military standard sidearms of the respective countrys.  To even attempt to list secondary and demonstrated military usage sidearms would take more bandwidth than the internet has available!  But all such weapons documented are welcome, if not necessarly listed.
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Offline Hangtown Frye

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2010, 10:30:44 PM »
Being a British revolver addict, I have an RIC New Model revolver also... an Army & Navy C.S.L. marked one ..... albeit chambered in .455.  It is quite accurate, and a pleasure to shoot ......




Thanks for posting that photo Grant. That looks to be the same creature as the one I'm considering, including the holster (though brown rather than black).  I had simply assumed that it was in .450, I'll have to check to see if it really is or is instead in .455".  Works for me, I have two boxes of old Dominion .455's around somewhere...  :)

Spoke to my compadre who had owned the Adams, and sadly he had traded it away a few years ago.  At least it went to another fellow with strong Canadian roots though, so I think it's pretty safe...

Now for the '76 Carbine... ;)

Cheers!

Gordon

Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2010, 06:05:53 AM »
That's an outstanding looking handgun!
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2010, 01:14:41 AM »
Gordon:

SHB's post brought me back to this thread, and I noticed something you said in your post that I meant to respond to befpre, but didn't get around to .....

The holster in my photo is actually brown also - just a very dark brown from many years accumulation of leather dressing.  The holster came with my very first Webley, a Mark V service revolver, with Q-broadarrow-G and Q-broadarrow-P property marks - signifying "Queensland Government" and "Queensland Police" (Australia). Even though the Mark V service revolver wasn't adopted until 1913, except for the model marking it is virtually indistinguishable from the earlier Mark IV (1899) and Mark III (1897), so its use is currently allowed under NCOWS rules (and would continue to be allowed under the new, expanded and clarified rules I have proposed for consideration at the upcoming NCOWS Convention) -



The only significant difference between the Mark III and Mark IV was an improved grade of steel to better accommodate the first smokeless loads (cordite) and then on the Mark V the cylinder walls were increased slightly in thickness for the nitro smokeless loads which were subsequently introduced ..... To illustrate that there is no apparent difference, here  is a Mark III Webley service revolver -

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Capt. JEB Forrest

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2010, 05:07:09 PM »
I don't know if it was ever officially adopted, but I believe the Merwin Hulbert was popular in Russia between the S&W #3 and the Nagant.

It was the .44, maybe private purchase.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Primary Milspec Handguns 1865-1901
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2010, 07:23:36 PM »
A handgun of demonstrated military usage, and welcome when paired with an appropriate longarm.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

 

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