Author Topic: Some thoughts on a new sport  (Read 643 times)

Offline Galloway

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Some thoughts on a new sport
« on: November 04, 2022, 11:58:37 AM »
Nothing wrong with long range bpcr but how about a more stripped down match anyone could participate in with an off the shelf rifle? Something with a theme closer to the hide men, getting a stand, and frontier hunting with a simplified but practical course of fire. Other sports like idpa, bowling pin shoots, cowboy fast draw made me think of this as they all stem from more elaborate disciplines.

A fun course of fire ive shot myself with barrel sights is 45 seconds par time for 3 shots total. One at 50 75 and 100 yards on a 10'' steel plate standing or kneeling. I think i did it on my 3rd try, under no pressure of course but if i can do it anyone can.

Other rules could be any bp cartridge with at least 70grs of powder. Shells held in offhand. Period dress, no spotters.

Rather than extreme accuracy this game would celebrate the killing power of the large bp cartridges that won the west and cleared the plains in faster and closer match anyone could play. Less Tom Selleck more Kansas railcar blasting.

Just some ideas i thought of as id love to attend a buffalo camp themed match with basic equipment myself.  Lets here your ideas any one else interested? What am i forgetting? What would be a good name?

Offline Reverend P. Babcock Chase

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2022, 12:57:20 PM »
Howdy Galloway,

That's exactly how we shoot LR at our club. A variety of categories (Single shot, Lever Rifle and Pistol, etc.) One sighter and then one shot on each distance, timed. At a club I ran for a while, I also added a points category (5pts at 50, 10 at 75, 15 at 100, ties broken based on time). Both are great fun when you only have 100yds to work with.

Rev. Chase

Offline Drydock

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2022, 01:34:31 PM »
That's the KVC buffalo match in Kansas.  Check it out up in the NCOWS forum.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Ranch 13

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2022, 05:17:33 PM »
 Gong matches, held at Alliance Ne, Baker and Ekalaka Mt, the Quigley, and the West of the Pecos match at Pecos texas all sort of fall in line with what you're talking about.
Eat more beef the west wasn't won on a salad.

Offline Ranch 13

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2022, 05:18:59 PM »
 And I forgot to mention the buffalo matches at Milan, Ill, and Houston Mo.
Eat more beef the west wasn't won on a salad.

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #5 on: Today at 10:06:02 AM »

Offline Drydock

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2022, 05:36:30 PM »
When is the one in Houston MO?  I need to try to make that one.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Drydock

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2022, 05:55:50 PM »
You might also enjoy the Single Shot class at GAF events.
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Offline Dave T

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2022, 06:10:46 PM »
I always thought a gong match at 100 and 200 yards with barrel mounted sights like when you bought it from the outfitter, which would be more in line with actual buffalo hunting distances.  And if you wanted it to be more like actually taking a stand shoot over cross sticks, still using barrel sights.

I'd drag my busted up self out to try something like that.  (smile)

Dave

Offline Ranch 13

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2022, 06:19:34 PM »
 Drydock I think they shoot that one at Houston late in the summer. They have a facebook page with their schedules.
  One of the things I like about the gong matches is shooting them with the ladder sights, but you really need to be able to use kentucky windage , and know how to run a ladder sight. The buffalo runners used an average of 3 shots per kill according to some that studied up on it a bit. I know there are accounts in letters to the Sharps Co. of shooting thru and killing two Buffalos with a single shot at 600 yards. Seldom did a herd get bunched up within a couple hundred yards and stay put after the first shot.
Eat more beef the west wasn't won on a salad.

Offline Dave T

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2022, 06:26:54 PM »
Not trying to start an argument Ranch but I've read that a lot of the shooting was done closer to 200 yards or so.  If you could drop the animals quickly with out a lot of milling around the group wouldn't scatter but just mill around.  Making those kinds of shots is a lot more likely at 200 than 600 yards.  They didn't have range finders back then and a miss calculation of just a few yards could spell the difference between a hit or a complete miss.

Dave

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #10 on: Today at 10:06:02 AM »

Offline Ranch 13

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2022, 06:46:43 PM »
 Dave read the accounts of some of those guys. The letters Sharps etc used in their catalogs from their customers on the plains. The stuff Leo Romiger puts in the BPCR News magazine is pretty interesting, as are his books about the buffalo hunters.
 One thing that always makes me think when ever going thru western Kansas and eastern Colorado, and the high plains of the Dakotas and Montana is how in the world did they get within decent rifle range of the herds.. Even here in east central Wyo, a person would have to be really lucky and play the wind right to get a 100 yard shot.
Eat more beef the west wasn't won on a salad.

Offline Drydock

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2022, 07:34:26 PM »
More than one kind of BUffalo shooter.  The difference is important

Smallest in number, but greatest in legend, were the Pros.  Billy Dixon and the like.  They liked 200-300 yards.  Bison and their lungs were a big target.  You wanted enough distance to mellow the crack of the rifle to a thunder like pitch, you wanted some elevation to overlook the herd, and you wanted enough distance to clear out should they stampede.  They were not going for quick kills, a Lung shot meant they would not go far.  Shot components were finite,  needed to maximize what they had.  These would be the Guys with Tang sights and heavy barrels.  I doubt they took more than one shot per animal.  They hunted meat for the railroads, or hides to make drive belts for the industrial revolution.  Sharps actually published range tables for their rifles, sight settings needed, once you understood the size of the animals, range was not that hard to judge.

Greater numbers, but less effective, were smaller/amateur outfits or simply someone wanting short term money.  One trip to the Buffalo grounds for a load of skins to pay for something else, '"getting a stake" as it were.  These were the guys in close with lighter rifles, and multiple shots for quicker kills.   

Then there were the day hunters, the railroad excursion shooters.  Dudes shooting a big animal for the thrill. 

One of the reasons I like the KVC shoot is it's basically "getting a stand" on a small group (15) of targets, spaced unevenly between 100-300 yards, got to knock them down.  Range is a guess, no sighters.  Adjust on the fly.  This last match the buffs were pretty hard to see against the dead prairie grass, open sights might have been an advantage.  Great fun.  The things weigh 60 lbs, need some serious bullet mass to get them down.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Ranch 13

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2022, 11:34:56 PM »
 ;D There was a 44-77 sharps equipped with a scope and all the trim in a case in one of the prestigious eastern institutions. Turns out it belonged to one of the big kahoona's at the school he had purchased the setup to go on one of those excursion train shoots. They go all set up on the flat car and he fired exactly one shot , the recoil tipped him and his shooting stool over and he fell off the side of the car , and never fired it again. ;D

  O.P. Hanna wrote that he and Jim White carried two rifles of identical chambered rifles each, that way when they got on a stand they would shoot the first rifle until the barrel got to hot and started shooting wild as the herd moved off, they would pitch the first rifle into the snow bank , pick up the second rifle and go to work, by the time the second rifle got to fouled and hot to be of any use, the herd was out of range, down, or the second rifle had cooled enough to go back into service.
Eat more beef the west wasn't won on a salad.

Offline Drydock

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2022, 07:30:18 PM »
If you can find Marcots Volume 2 on Sharps rifles, the last half of the book (and it's a big book) is perhaps the best examination of the Buffalo Harvest of the 1870s.  The men, the rifles they used, and how they used them.  Fantastic stuff, worth the money.  All the Marcot Volumes are.  1 (Percussion guns) and 3 (Target rifles) are relatively easy to find, 2 (the 1874) is the tough one, though I believe they're setting up for a 2nd printing.  Shilohsharps.com has 1 and 3 in their website shop.  https://shilohrifle.com/accessories/books/

Yep, I have all three, and waiting eagerly for Volume 4 (The Borchardt)

went and looked, there's a Volume 2 on Amazon now, and whoo boy are they proud of it!
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Montana Slim

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2022, 12:06:59 PM »
Great idea. I've been a proponent of & made suggestions over the years regarding bringing more people into shooting at "distance". By this, I'm talking about recruiting more folks & younger ones, too. Towards this, I've suggested setting hanging steel plates at various distances between, say 50 - 250 yds (side - match day!). Purpose is to mentor our "cowboy" shooters into thinking about hitting something beyond easy "pistol" distance with their pistol-caliber lever action. Targets would be such that everyone could participate using single shot & lever action rifles/carbines in rifle or pistol caliber as typically seen at NCOWS, SASS, etc "long" range side matches. For reference, I've been involved with all aspects of "cowboy" shooting at Milan, IL from the beginning, fledgling "long" range, buffalo matches, etc. Hoping to turn a few of our newer cowboys into "marksman". I don't mind offering coaching & revealing my "secrets" on loading (average SASS competition loads ain't gonna cut it), use of x-sticks, and adjusting or even adding sights. It's pretty ambitious, I know... but I find rifle shooting, whether with my pistol cal / rifle cal levers, or single shot to be most satisfying.

More people involved = more matches & possibly a variety of them. Plus, increased interest in other clubs or organizations (NCOWS, GAF, etc) which offer more choices & keep those games alive, too.

Regards,
Slim
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Offline wildman1

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Re: Some thoughts on a new sport
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2022, 06:16:58 AM »
Nothing wrong with long range bpcr but how about a more stripped down match anyone could participate in with an off the shelf rifle? Something with a theme closer to the hide men, getting a stand, and frontier hunting with a simplified but practical course of fire. Other sports like idpa, bowling pin shoots, cowboy fast draw made me think of this as they all stem from more elaborate disciplines.

A fun course of fire ive shot myself with barrel sights is 45 seconds par time for 3 shots total. One at 50 75 and 100 yards on a 10'' steel plate standing or kneeling. I think i did it on my 3rd try, under no pressure of course but if i can do it anyone can.

Other rules could be any bp cartridge with at least 70grs of powder. Shells held in offhand. Period dress, no spotters.

Rather than extreme accuracy this game would celebrate the killing power of the large bp cartridges that won the west and cleared the plains in faster and closer match anyone could play. Less Tom Selleck more Kansas railcar blasting.

Just some ideas i thought of as id love to attend a buffalo camp themed match with basic equipment myself.  Lets here your ideas any one else interested? What am i forgetting? What would be a good name?
[/quote
Sounds like a great idea.... except for the part about sayin how much powder should be used. I would go with whatever is the most accurate load in my rifle.
wM1
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