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CAS TOPICS => NCOWS => Topic started by: Dusty Tagalon on June 23, 2020, 06:03:46 PM

Title: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on June 23, 2020, 06:03:46 PM
Allowed or not? I have a MK V with a shaved cylinder designed for ACP with moon clips, acceptable to shoot with auto rim?
Thanks
Dusty
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: FriscoCounty on June 23, 2020, 06:41:23 PM
Yes.  It is what I do.  Factory .45 ACP can be too hot for Webleys.  So, to be safe, I shoot .45 AutoRim.  Working on adapting some .45 ACP moonclips to fit .455 Webley cartgridges.
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Books OToole on June 24, 2020, 08:17:57 AM
I would say no.  Both .45 acp and auto-rim are 20th century rounds.
It would be up to the Judge for a interim decision and ultimately the Congress.

Books-
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on June 24, 2020, 04:36:35 PM
For the most part, I agree with Mike. It is a shame so many guns are defaced. I know I can use it locally, my reasoning for asking, using at regional or higher. Won’t go off if no.
Perhaps, the MK V should be added to banned list, Manufactured 1913-1915. Similar to MK IV, with cylinder slightly larger to allow for smokeless pressures.
Brian
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: FriscoCounty on June 24, 2020, 05:42:28 PM
The Mark V is a 20th century revolver, introduced in 1914. It was designed to shoot smokeless Mk V cordite cartridge.  The main change from the Mark IV was the cylinder being enlarged to improve strength specifically for smokeless loads. 

The .45 Autorim is rated at 15,000 CUP (3,000 CUP lower than .45 ACP) or 17,400 PSI.   
 
Quote
The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes 'a Feu Portatives (CIP) rates the .455 Webley Mark II cartridge with a maximum average pressure (MAP) of 900 bar, which is 13,050 PSI. At face value, this compares well to the marking stamped on the barrel of my pistol that indicates 6 tons per square inch, or (nominally) 13,440 psi. However, this 6 tons PSI is actually copper units of pressure or CUP, not true PSI as with the CIP value. Furthermore, it is probably base or axial copper crusher measurement per British Proof House practice, as opposed to radial or side measurement. Using the conversion of British Proof House tons per square inch in true pressure (derived from CIP data) gives 1050 bars and 15,230 PSI for 6 tons psi. Since 1050 bars is squarely between the CIP rating for the .45 Colt and .45 Smith & Wesson Schofield, and consistent with SAAMI specs, I feel confident this is still a safe upper limit. I believe the 900 bar MAP imposed by the CIP was made in deference to the older blackpowder revolvers.
http://rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/classics/webley/webley-mk-vi.html (http://rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/classics/webley/webley-mk-vi.html)

So, yes, even .45 Autorim can exceed the working pressure for a Mark V. .45 ACP definitely does, to disaterous levels. 



Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on June 24, 2020, 05:49:24 PM
45 Auto Rim, hand loads only, low pressure, would never use moon clips with manufactured 45 ACP! Not looking for hangrenade. BTW, I have a 2nd shaved .455, a Colt New Service. Don’t care 1 way or other, I would like to see it legal. Went to range today to try out some loads, grabbed some 45 ACP in moon clips, to my surprise turned out, they were BP, never remembered loading them. Guessing I did it when I acquired the Mk5. Maybe next, load some auto rim in true black. I have a few pounds of Goex, don’t care for Pyrodex or Triple 7, so loading true black. Will likely take a long time to purge substitutes, plus with so much of what I have isn’t properly marked, I register as smokeless, major matches, load for it. Having BP show up when shooting smokeless no problem & a laugh. Smokeless in the string of BP becomes a problem.
 
Brian
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: OklaTom on July 14, 2020, 11:58:39 AM
Allowed or not? I have a MK V with a shaved cylinder designed for ACP with moon clips, acceptable to shoot with auto rim?
Thanks
Dusty

Speaking as Judge, I would say no. As mentioned, it is a 20th century case. We already have enough of those that sneaked in (e.g. 44 Special, 44 Mag). I have a Royal Irish Constabulary revolver that did not disclose in the auction that the cylinder had been shaved, and 45 Auto Rim is the only thing I can shoot in it. I load it with a 200 gr bullet and FFg powder to slow down the burn.

What you do at a local shoot is up to that posse's Judge (though technically all NCOWS shoots are supposed to adhere to the Tally Book). I would not allow it at a sanctioned Regional or National level shoot. Which is a crying shame, because I really like my RIC.
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on July 15, 2020, 05:18:55 PM
For the most part, I agree. This is my only request to accept 45 auto rim. I have 2x shaved cylinders .455, a Mk5 & a Colt New Service, although gun is, cartridge not. NCOWS, SASS, cartridge/gun not approved, OK to both.
Since 45 Auto Rim blocked, I call for any gun manufactured for 32 HR & 357 to be blocked! 45 Auto Rim beat both cartridges by years, but disallowed! Figure that out.
Draw the line!
Brian
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: OklaTom on July 15, 2020, 06:09:23 PM
Brian, the calibers you mentioned are some of the ones approved that I was getting at with my 44 examples. Some sneak in, and once there, durned hard to “unapprove” them. Like I said, using it in matches that are not sanctioned as regional or national level matches is fine. I see a lot of bending the rules for club matches in my travels with NCOWS. For a regional or national match, I’m sure you have other revolvers in approved calibers. I think it is true of all of us - some we have are legit for NCOWS, some are not. Those that aren’t, I use in weekend matches or plinking. I pull out approved gun/calibers for the regional and national matches.
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on July 15, 2020, 06:53:43 PM
Fully approve of the list approved/unapproved calibers, but shouldn’t the unapproved include any gun in .357 or 32 HR mag! What takes precedence gun/caliber?
Brian
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: OklaTom on July 15, 2020, 08:01:53 PM
Fully approve of the list approved/unapproved calibers, but shouldn’t the unapproved include any gun in .357 or 32 HR mag! What takes precedence gun/caliber?
Brian

It depends. For instance, 32 H&R in a handgun probably doesn’t work. All the revolvers I’m aware of in that caliber are the small frame variety, specifically unapproved. My wife had to switch to a full size 32-20 and give up her Ruger 32 H&R when she made the jump from SASS. She still shoots her Marlin 32 H&R as it is specifically approved (I believe you have or had one of those).

All the Italian import replicas of rifles (except the 1866) and revolvers in 38 caliber are made with 357 chambers, but they shoot 38 Colt and 38 Special just fine. We do not want to go down the path of specifying what approved guns can be in what caliber. That would be messy. Suddenly telling someone they cannot shoot a rifle in 45 Colt, 44 Special, 38 Spl/357 Mag because the Winchester’s were never chambered in a straight wall cartridge is not the way to go. I imagine a lot of our membership would just drop out rather than buy new firearms. Using a little common sense needs to prevail.

Bryan
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Yuma Kid on July 15, 2020, 08:57:11 PM
We have these anomalies in NCOWS because we are a democratic organization rather than dictating what the Execitive Board decides. Our congress of Senators and Posse Representatives get to decide those matters and they have not always be able to hold strictly to historical accuracy. Otherwise we would all be shooting original firearms (certainly rifles) in original calibers. That would mean no Henrys or 1866 models, as Bryan pointed out not straight-walled cased ammo in rifles and so on. We try to do the best we can at the time and given then the circumstances.
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on July 15, 2020, 09:11:16 PM
Understand, I have many original & reproduction rifles & revolvers! I can show up & shoot either, but show up with an altered original or a reproduction in modern cartridge, & altered original isn’t legal, maybe time to give it up.
NCOWS has drawn the line, I will abide by it!
Brian
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Cliff Fendley on July 16, 2020, 06:22:35 PM
Understand, I have many original & reproduction rifles & revolvers! I can show up & shoot either, but show up with an altered original or a reproduction in modern cartridge, & altered original isn’t legal, maybe time to give it up.
NCOWS has drawn the line, I will abide by it!
Brian

Brain you might want to submit a proposal for congress agenda to have the cartridge added for the reasons many of those guns have been altered. Personally with all the others that have snuck in chambered in modern reproductions I personally would support a rule that says an altered original can use about any modern cartridge.

In other words exactly what you are saying, if we are going to allow (which as has been mentioned we have to) modern repros to use modern cartridges just because that is the popular thing and what it takes in order for members to feed them then original guns should definitely be allowed to shoot a modern cartridge if it's a popular alteration and what it takes to feed the gun.
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on July 17, 2020, 05:42:12 PM
At this time, all banana griped Webley’s allowed. Perhaps the mk5 manufactured for WW1 smokeless should be banned, don’t know difference between a mk5 cylinder vs 1-4, perceivable looking at side by side?
 No, I am not going to quit NCOWS over this, nor will I submit for 45 Autorim to be allowed. If I was to submit anything, it would be to have the Marlin 1894 in 32 H&R removed from approved list. Next, this abomination will become my primary rifle. My lobbying will be side by side comparison with a Marlin 1892. The 92 frame is smaller, & has a side plate thumb screw for removing side plate. The 1894 is the full size frame without a loading gate.
Brian


Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on July 23, 2020, 12:38:13 PM
Working on an experiment, chopped some Schofield rounds down to length of .93”. 1st try with primers only was a failure, primers backed out so far, lock up gun on firing pin. So loaded 6x rounds up with 185gr SWC, & Greendot, all fired without lockup. Next step, cut down 19 more, but down to .770” to match length of Webley cartridge.
Brian
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: bear tooth billy on July 23, 2020, 05:11:10 PM
I think some guns/calibers slipped through years ago, probably to help grow
membership, probably not right but that was back then. We have a very knowledgeable
judge and I think it will be much harder to get a gun/caliber that is not legit through
congress now. I have a pair of Pietta 38s that will shoot 38 short, long, special, and magnum.
I shoot 38 long colt even though they cost more, but they were THERE in the time period I like,
and I sure don't think the guns should be banned because they will shoot a modern cartridge that
I personally would never shoot at a NCOWS event.


                  IMHO   BTB
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: OklaTom on July 23, 2020, 08:41:10 PM
I think some guns/calibers slipped through years ago, probably to help grow
membership, probably not right but that was back then. We have a very knowledgeable
judge and I think it will be much harder to get a gun/caliber that is not legit through
congress now. I have a pair of Pietta 38s that will shoot 38 short, long, special, and magnum.
I shoot 38 long colt even though they cost more, but they were THERE in the time period I like,
and I sure don't think the guns should be banned because they will shoot a modern cartridge that
I personally would never shoot at a NCOWS event.


                  IMHO   BTB

That’s kinda what happened - like Ruger Vaquero. They are not true clones, but they are approved. Now, if someone wanted to go to the trouble, and write a proposal for Congress to vote on, specifically to approve 45 Auto Rim for use only in approved original guns that have been altered, well that’s the process. The Judge has the authority to make temporary rulings only. Congress is the final authority on changes to the rules (including approved items and unapproved items). But if Congress votes to approve 45 Auto Rim in altered original approved revolvers, then the problem is solved.
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rima
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on July 24, 2020, 07:34:13 PM
Need a couple of decisions!
Where do we draw the line?
Mk5 or shaved cylinders?
Mk5 banned because from 1915, only difference from Mk4, slightly larger cylinder to allow for smokeless.
At this time, any banana grip Webley allowed. Shaved cylinders are very visible to eye.
So do we ban any & all any & all shaved cylinders?
I don’t  want to throw my Mk5 shaved cylinder aside form NCOWS!
My current testing, cutting down 45 Schofield to .455 Webley length isn’t safe, gap between cylinder & recoil shield is 2x thickness of rim, my tests so far, see no bulges or stress at base of cartridge. I am conflicted here, part says any shaved Webley with autorim OK, other part says NO to Mk5 or shaved cylinder.
As much as I don’t want to be the person to submit to NCOWS to ban Mk5 or shaved cylinders, or allow Autorim. For me to push forward, need to know the length of Mk4 or Mk5 cylinder, & diameter of Mk4.
Thanks
Brian
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rima
Post by: OklaTom on July 24, 2020, 09:28:14 PM
Need a couple of decisions!
Where do we draw the line?
Mk5 or shaved cylinders?
Mk5 banned because from 1915, only difference from Mk4, slightly larger cylinder to allow for smokeless.
At this time, any banana grip Webley allowed. Shaved cylinders are very visible to eye.
So do we ban any & all any & all shaved cylinders?
I don’t  want to throw my Mk5 shaved cylinder aside form NCOWS!
My current testing, cutting down 45 Schofield to .455 Webley length isn’t safe, gap between cylinder & recoil shield is 2x thickness of rim, my tests so far, see no bulges or stress at base of cartridge. I am conflicted here, part says any shaved Webley with autorim OK, other part says NO to Mk5 or shaved cylinder.
As much as I don’t want to be the person to submit to NCOWS to ban Mk5 or shaved cylinders, or allow Autorim. For me to push forward, need to know the length of Mk4 or Mk5 cylinder, & diameter of Mk4.
Thanks
Brian

I am not following your reasoning here. The Mark V is approved for use.  Like the New Service Colt you mentioned in 455 Eley (the New Service was introduced in 1898) they are already NCOWS approved. So no one is talking about banning anything on these revolvers except you. The problem is the shaved cylinders don’t work with the originally chambered ammunition. All it takes is a motion to Congress to allow 45 Auto Rim in shaved cylinder original firearms. Until Congress would approve such a thing, it stands as a modern caliber I believe should not be added to the stable of already “incorrect” calibers. As I mentioned before, until Congress acts on someone’s proposal, you can still use your Mark V, shaved cylinder, 45 Auto Rim in local matches. Just not in sanctioned Regional and National events. Trust me, I would benefit from such an act of Congress as then my Webley RIC would be legitimized.
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on July 24, 2020, 11:02:38 PM
Simple, any banana grip Webley OK.
I doubt anyone can see difference between an unaltered Mk4 or Mk5.
Problem is shaved cylinder/45 autorim! In all honesty, I can spot a shaved cylinder without a side by side comparison.
All I am asking for is clarification. I show up with a Mk5 with shaved cylinder shooting 45 Autorim, leagel or not. If not, is it Mk5 or shaved cylinder is the problem? I don’t possess an unaltered MK4 or Mk5 for comparison. This “SOF” (stupid old fart), only seeks clarification. I want details, Mk4 vs Mk5 cylinder dimensions.
2nd, in all honesty, I can spot a shaved cylinder without a side by side comparison.
My thoughts, unaltered Mk5, OK.
As much as I would like to shoot my shaved Mk5 in NCOWS, I shouldn’t! Although it would be safer to shoot in autorim, my Mk5 has 2x strikes against it, Mk5 from & autorim from 1915.
I want to know cylinder dimensions of Mk4 vs Mk5 before I call to ban Mk5.
2nd issue, shaved cylinder! In all honesty, I can spot a shaved cylinder without a side by side comparison, therefore as much as I would like to use my shaved Mk5, it isn’t an NCOWS gun.
Brian
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on July 25, 2020, 01:28:52 AM
Uncle, I give up, if you can’t understand my reasoning, stick the fork in my butt, I am done!
Brian
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Johnson Barr on July 26, 2020, 10:30:55 AM
Might want to 'tap the brakes' a little Brian. There are people working on this issue even as we speak. See you at the Ruckus.
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on July 26, 2020, 01:53:24 PM
I am stepping back.
Also, from here on out, pledge not to post while under the influence!
Please let this drop for now. I have embarrassed myself enough here.
Brian
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Books OToole on July 27, 2020, 08:42:46 AM
I am stepping back. Also, from here on out, pledge not to post while under the influence!
Brian

Good idea.


Books
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Drydock on July 27, 2020, 04:14:18 PM
Dimensionally, the .45 Auto Rim is nothing more than a Webley MK 1  case with a thick rim.  I suppose it depends on how far into the weeds you want to go.  I would consider it far closer to the Webley round than a Ruger Vaquero is to an SAA.  FWIW (not much at all I'm afeered!   :-\ )
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: The Pathfinder on July 28, 2020, 12:14:29 PM
I usually fire my 45 Auto Rim thru either a 1917 Colt or S&W and then reload with black powder for my Mk V. I have a Mk IV, Mk V and a Mk VI, but only the Mk V was shaved, the older and newer Mk's are still both in .455.
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Dusty Tagalon on August 19, 2020, 10:33:57 PM
Shaved 45 Schofield down to 477 length, 50 rounds fired so far, all went bang, no primer blowouts! Rolling forward with tests. For the most part, safety sake, 45 autorim is safe, chopping brass down to .455 length isn’t. So far working, but possibly not the safest.
My smokeless load, .5cc green dot, 200 gr bullet, little to no recoil, hits targets hard. This Mk5 will be my primary weapon, challenge/DQ me, I don’t care!
Brian
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: Montana Slim on August 20, 2020, 01:22:50 PM
Thinking we split hairs pretty close with this topic of cartridges. Many of us use a cartridge case in one or more of our firearms that is headstamped different than the arm. Examples abide everywhere such as 45-60, 40-60, 45-75, 50-95, 44 Colt, 38 Colt, 44 Russian are just a few examples. Sometimes were starting with an approved cartridge, other times, no. Pull out the book of cartridge conversions for an interesting read.

Regards,
Slim
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: OklaTom on August 20, 2020, 01:32:54 PM
Thinking we split hairs pretty close with this topic of cartridges. Many of us use a cartridge case in one or more of our firearms that is headstamped different than the arm. Examples abide everywhere such as 45-60, 40-60, 45-75, 50-95, 44 Colt, 38 Colt, 44 Russian are just a few examples. Sometimes were starting with an approved cartridge, other times, no. Pull out the book of cartridge conversions for an interesting read.

Regards,
Slim

I’m not sure I agree with your examples of the head stamps. I shoot all of those calibers (and more that are obscure) and the only one I have that has a different head stamp than the caliber it is being used for is 44 Bulldog - that casing has been out of production since the 1940s. It is a turned down 44 Russian that Buffalo Arms makes. I will grant that at the moment, with Jamison/Captech out of business again, the brass theWinchester 1876 calibers is tough to find, and expensive. Quality Brass makes them about once per year. Bertram in Australia makes some of them, but they are really expensive. But with 44 Colt, 38 Colt, 44 Russian brass plentiful and pretty inexpensive from Starline, I don’t know why anyone would be using an improper stamped casing for these.
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: DeaconKC on August 26, 2020, 03:32:39 PM
Reading this has left me with a question about .45 AR revolvers. I have a New Service made for .45 ACP/AR, not a 1917, this was a commercial gun built in the 30s. If AR were approved, would my gun be legal for NCOWS?
Title: Re: 45 Auto Rim
Post by: OklaTom on August 26, 2020, 05:24:09 PM
Reading this has left me with a question about .45 AR revolvers. I have a New Service made for .45 ACP/AR, not a 1917, this was a commercial gun built in the 30s. If AR were approved, would my gun be legal for NCOWS?

Probably not. The proposal written for Congress to vote on specified approved original revolvers that were modified by shaving the cylinder. Is also specifically excludes the use of 45 ACP with moon clips, which later revolvers were designed to use. Such modifications were typically done to revolvers that were originally chambered for European 45 caliber cartridges that had thin rims. The cylinder would be shaved for (originally) 45 ACP and moon clips.

As an aside, it seems to me it would have been easier to just rechamber the cylinders to a US 45 caliber. But, the main reason it was done was for the war effort of WWI, when production of 1911 pistols could not keep up with demand, but the Ordnance Department had plenty of 45 ACP ammunition. The 45 Auto Rim was developed in post war 1930 for the modified revolvers as well as the models of 1917.