Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: half-hitch on May 30, 2015, 11:15:26 AM
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My pistols are all Uberti's in .45 Colt. Two of them are El Patrons and one is an 1875 Rem. Army Outlaw. My research is turning up a big debate going back and forth between Federal and Winchester. What are you all using?
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Considering how hard some reloading components have been to get over the last 4 or 5 years, this is my suggestion.
The best primers are the ones you have available to you for that size cartridge case.
Various brands may not always be available.
When you find the ones you prefer/like... buy them by the 1000 count at a minimum.
My best,
Blair
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From what I've read, some are saying that the replicas, because of a lighter mainspring than, say a Ruger for example, won't fire with harder primers like Winchester or CCI and I've also read people who say that the Federals are softer but too soft. Since I have to buy primers by the thousands, I'd like to know what's going to work best for my guns.
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Some members have probably already mentioned that reloading isn't anywhere simple enough that there will ever be answers to questions like what's the best anything. If you've stumbled onto primer discussions in SASS forums, the "discussion" there is biased strongly by a population that happens to be almost universally lightening hammer springs. And they're almost totally separated from accuracy requirements. So the best primer is the one that takes the least amount of impact to set off. Which also happens to be the reason that brand is also the one packaged in big, roomy boxes, so they're less apt to be detonated in shipping and why Lee Inc. has warnings not to use them.
Any of this have to do with which is best? Yeah, it's an example of why this reloading stuff isn't sound byte simple. Dang near every detail in reloading needs a paragraph just to narrow down the real question being asked.
There really aren't any magic primers. They all work well enough for large enough groups of buyers to make it profitable for Winchester, Federal, CCI, Remington, and a few more to manufacture in huge amounts.
Did you notice in your research any mention of accuracy? Go to another special interest forum and you just might. Different disciplines have different magical properties they're seeking. And just about every interest buys them all.
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From what I've read, some are saying that the replicas, because of a lighter mainspring than, say a Ruger for example, won't fire with harder primers like Winchester or CCI and I've also read people who say that the Federals are softer but too soft. Since I have to buy primers by the thousands, I'd like to know what's going to work best for my guns.
Read up on the threads about what's the best weight hammer springs and mix that in with the primer hardness noise.
One thing that isn't usually obvious is how many things are behind the "one" topic you're interested in discovering the magic solution to.
BTW, until you've actually experienced a number of cowboy matches, you really shouldn't fall for the suggestions that you need to blow money on slicked up guns.
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Thanks Litl Red. I'm not searching for the perfect round. I'm looking for a starting point.
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Thanks Litl Red. I'm not searching for the perfect round. I'm looking for a starting point.
Actually, it sounded like you were hoping to avoid buying any that had problems and possibly discovering a best buy.
And it was an opportunity to give some insight into the game that's attracting you. Any of the name brand primers are going to work and do no less than any others. The only real reason for any brand is the help Federals give to guns that've had their hammer springs lightened too much. And it'd be sensible to hold off paying for work like that for awhile.
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A perfectly reasonable question that you'll probably have to determine the answer to on your own. i.e. What works for you is the right answer. My experience with primers is as follows:
Hardness: CCI > Remington > Winchester > Federal
Quality Control: CCI > Federal > Remington > Winchester
Ease of use on Auto-Indexing press: CCI > Remington > Federal > Winchester
So, If I didn't have race-gunz, I'd use CCI. But, because I do, I use Federal. If I couldn't find Federal, I'd use Remington in a pinch. I only use CCI in factory tuned gunz. I will not use Winchester in a match under any circumstances.
As I said, your milage may vary.
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My Dear Half-Hitch
I understand your excitement and interest, but in your ferver you are falling into the classic newby trap. Searches of these forums
and a few others will provide answers to many of your questions, all of which have been asked repeatedly before by
every other reloading newby. We are here to help, but we cannot hold your hand every step of the way.
Please understand that it is not my intention ( or the forum's) to rain on your parade, or disuade you from
asking questions - EXCEPT that each and every question you have been asking have been already answered .
As previously advised, Before you buy anything, Go to your LGS, bookstore , or online and get this book and possibly one or two other books.:
http://www.amazon.com/Precision-Modern-Reloading-Edition-Format/dp/B000N8OKAU
read and study pages 1-152 because the chapters therein cover each and every topic you have been asking about.
Since Richard Lee is the principal of Lee Loading Inc, his opinions are naturally biased toward his products.
chapters 1-4 cover his loading tools, choosing loading tools, choosing primers, brass, bullets, and powders, etc
sizing , trimming, expanding, charging, crimping, etc etc
chapters 5-11 cover somewhat more advanced topics including presssure discussions and casting.
pages 152 thru 610 are loading recipes.
These cover starting loads, minimum loads , the so-called "maximum loads" , with some discussions of pressures and velocities
found in the firearms they used for testing.
I hope you understand, there is a great deal of difference between newby questions and discussion:
ie:
" I have an XX pistol, what is the best brand of brass/primer/etc for me to get"
This question cannot been answered, and indicates the asker has put no thought into the matter
vs
" I have been using winchester brass and find it doesn't last for many reloads, is Remington brass better or is it my methods?"
This question shows the asker has put effort into the matter and has bumped up against an obstacle.
for example, from one of your recent posts:
"Now I need to get online and order powder and bullets as well as some casings. Who's the cheapest? What bullets? What powder? What casings? Who do most of you use for your supplies? Online? Local gun shop?"
Virtually all modern brass, powder, primers, and bullets are good.
People used to have favorites , now it is literally a matter of "what is available?" and then reference the load books for
making use of what you can get.
If you are unable to absorb the knowledge via the reading material and require a "hands-on" tutor you would be best served
to locate such a person in your immediate vicinity, since such tutalage is really not available over the web unless you
can arrange a live webcam interchange with such an instructor.
I cannot stress enough the need to learn from the books. They are the go-to resources .
The Web is full of misinformation, idiots making u-toobs, and casual nonsense such as
"aw you can get away with that jest fine"
and
"I've been using this overpressure load for years and it ain't hurt me"
We do not want you blowing yourself or your firelocks up.
hope this helps
yhs
prof marvel
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I use CCIs in gas guns and strong firing pin/spring bolt actions.
But long ago I learned the hard way the Federals were best for slicked-up
revolvers, lever-actions and actual BP cartridge (both pistol & rifle) guns
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I think all of you are right. I'll do a little more research and try to ask the right questions because I think that's really my problem. Not asking the right questions due to a lack over overall knowledge.
I do appreciate all of the input. ;)
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I think all of you are right. I'll do a little more research and try to ask the right questions because I think that's really my problem. Not asking the right questions due to a lack over overall knowledge.
I do appreciate all of the input. ;)
My Dear Half Hitch -
Not to worry - your only "problem" is that you are new to loading, and excited and enthusiastic and need somewhere to chat about it :-)
That's ok, because we all started in the same place.
Many of us, myself included, stress The Books because there is so much to absorb, and one can keep going back to the reference manual. I myself started out with the original ancient Lyman book in 1972, then sprung for the Sierra and Hornady books, and just recently got a fresh copy of Lee's "modern reloading" . Powders & etc do change and new load data is useful, as well as reading about advances in pressure instruments, prssure curves, & etc.
Once you do get all the goodies, you will need to decide on your "first load" , which BTW I would recommend a standard middle load - not too low and not too hot - for sake of argument let's say 5.0 gr of Unique in a .38 spcl under a 158 gr lead semi-wadcutter.
Do not get enthusiastic and load up hundreds of cartridges with this all at once. Load a few, perhaps 2 or 3 dozen, and take them out to shoot from off a bench and see how it works for you first. Just some advice from someone who has screwed up in the past :-)
yhs
prof marvel
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My Dear Half Hitch -
Not to worry - your only "problem" is that you are new to loading, and excited and enthusiastic and need somewhere to chat about it :-)
That's ok, because we all started in the same place.
Many of us, myself included, stress The Books because there is so much to absorb, and one can keep going back to the reference manual. I myself started out with the original ancient Lyman book in 1972, then sprung for the Sierra and Hornady books, and just recently got a fresh copy of Lee's "modern reloading" . Powders & etc do change and new load data is useful, as well as reading about advances in pressure instruments, prssure curves, & etc.
Once you do get all the goodies, you will need to decide on your "first load" , which BTW I would recommend a standard middle load - not too low and not too hot - for sake of argument let's say 5.0 gr of Unique in a .38 spcl under a 158 gr lead semi-wadcutter.
Do not get enthusiastic and load up hundreds of cartridges with this all at once. Load a few, perhaps 2 or 3 dozen, and take them out to shoot from off a bench and see how it works for you first. Just some advice from someone who has screwed up in the past :-)
yhs
prof marvel
This all makes sense, Professor. Especially the "chat about it" thing. ;)
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If your guns are stock they should fire any brand just fine. Personally I use different brands for different loadings for centerfire rifles and such according to what the recipe says but I always use Winchester and Federal in the ammo we shoot in our cowboy guns.
I use Winchester in the smokeless rounds for my wife and I use Federal in my black powder rounds. Why???? because the different color of the primer I can instantly look at the round and know if it's black powder or smokeless.
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If your guns are stock they should fire any brand just fine.
What about my pair of El Patrons? Would they be considered stock?
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What about my pair of El Patrons? Would they be considered stock?
I don't know but I think they use Wolff springs which should be fine for any primer that is seated properly.
A gun that will only fire Federals is getting almost too light of springs and to the point I would consider it unreliable. Even though I use a lot of Federal primers I still test any of my guns with the other primers after I do any action work or changing springs. I generally use the Federal primers in my black powder loads just in case I do have a gun get gummed up or running sluggish late in a day of shooting.
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They do use Wolfe springs.
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Hi
Interesting, I've been using Winchester Large Pistol for 12 years in .45 ACP with Bullseye and have had no problems. I also use Winchester Large Rifle in my rifles. I have a few WSP lined up to use with .38 Specials. I've used both CCI and Federals, but have been "loyal" to Winchester. I guess if it ain't broke I won't fix it.
If memory serves, Lee used to say you shouldn't use Federals in the hand primers. One would assume that they go off too easily. Since I use Lee Hand priming tools, I've never been a Federal primer buyer.
Just my $0.02 worth every penny.
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As has been mentioned time and again, in this day and age use what you can find. While some of us that have been reloading for a couple lustrums or more have developed personal preference for brands, it doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things.
I like CCI, Winchester, and Remington primers the best, use some federal's in limited application.
Quite frankly if a gun won't set of one brand or other of primer, that gun is broken, and needs the attention of a real live gunsmith ( not to be confused with a gun parts changer)
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I don't do benchrest shooting or extreme long range, so my basic requirement is that it makes the gun go bang. All of them I have tried will do this. I do try to avoid Federals because of the giant size packaging, they don't fit well in an ammo can.
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I've wondered if the competition shooters that cut their springs so light that they only fire Federal primers are really doing themselves a favor or not. Sure they are able to cock their hammer with less resistance and theoretically that equates to a quicker cocking time. however the question becomes: due they loose that advantage when it takes longer for the hammer to hit the firing pin because of the lighter spring? It would really be interesting if someone ran a blind test to see.
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I've wondered if the competition shooters that cut their springs so light that they only fire Federal primers are really doing themselves a favor or not. Sure they are able to cock their hammer with less resistance and theoretically that equates to a quicker cocking time. however the question becomes: due they loose that advantage when it takes longer for the hammer to hit the firing pin because of the lighter spring? It would really be interesting if someone ran a blind test to see.
Doing themselves a favor? or not?
When someone thinks something helps, it does. Increased confidence almost always helps.
As for the difference in speed of cocking versus the speed of ignition, there aren't many who can come close to cocking as fast as hammers fall, even hammers pushed by softer springs, at least those who're still asking for guidance in their new sport. There is also time and effort spent maintaining aim and less is required when cocking disturbs that less. There is where most of the time saved comes from. However...
To see how much time is saved would take some pretty expensive and sophisticated equipment. That fact shows exactly how little time you're talking about. When you're an average shooter, that little amount of time isn't going to do much for your standings is it? Same deal with short stroke jobs on rifles. So why do so many pay for these two "important" jobs? They believed the advice they got from the ones who gave the advice.
Why do so many humans make a living selling snake oil? 'Cause so many humans buy it.
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Federals will work in a gun with a lightened trigger pull when no other one will.
One the flip side, there is a company making reloading presses with an auto primer feed that prohibits the use of Federal primers in their equipment because the design is such that primer feed chute explosions are a possibility.
What primer does your load data recommend?
Rick
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"............When someone thinks something helps, it does. Increased confidence almost always helps.........."
I must disagree. Firearms are machines and science.
Positive thinking will not alter the outcome of a machine.
Slim
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No problem...
They certainly are iron and wood. They do happen to be fired by people. Who often use them in matches. Even matches that include offhand, although confidence helps people even when they're shooting off rests.
The degree of help varies for sure, but still helps.
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As a longtime (now former) law enforcement firearms instructor, I have long seen improvement in students' shooting ability when they had confidence in their guns. Conversely, if they had trouble with it, they tended to be very tentative in their shooting and therefore slow and less accurate, even after any malfunctions were resolved. I don't have scientific research to back that up, but that was my experience.
CC Griff
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Any gun that won't fire any and all primers each and every time is broke.
I have a Ruger SSM that has one of the lightest triggers you will ever see and it will fire each and every brand and type of primer including CCI Small Rifle. A set of springs don't make a "trigger job" no more than a set of headers and a big carb on a stock V8 don't make a race engine.
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I've read psychology reports where people who dressed well for a test did better on it because they felt more confidence. I'd assume there would be something similar in regards to competition shooting.
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I've been honored with a best dressed award for the only two annual matches I've attended. I was probably in the lower 10% of my shooting category last year, and this year I was second, but there was only two of us in the category...the winner beat me out an average of over 15 seconds per stage!
I'd hate to think what my stage scores would be if I didn't dress well!!
As for primers...I think that as long as you follow the reloading tables, and your gun functions properly it won't matter what you use for action shooting.
I've twice chased a problem with primers....both times, it was the primer-er, not the primer that was the problem. Once, it was contaminated primers (moist primer pockets from not drying out thoroughly after cleaning), and the next time it was from being improperly/insufficiently seated. Before I figured all this out, I ended up with new mainsprings, and a differnt primer mfg...I chased the wrong problem initially.
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I've been honored with a best dressed award for the only two annual matches I've attended. I was probably in the lower 10% of my shooting category last year, and this year I was second, but there was only two of us in the category...the winner beat me out an average of over 15 seconds per stage!
I'd hate to think what my stage scores would be if I didn't dress well!!
I didn't mean it as a direct comparison. More referring to confidence in your firearms could give a kind of 'x-factor' quality to your shooting. Of course, this is speculation on my part, the test I read was dealing with a fairly different situation, obviously.
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Trum4m1208....
No worries...it was more a dig at my shooting abilities, or rather inabilities, than directed at your comment...
It's all good with me!
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Trigger spring and hammer spring are two different things. One controls how hard it is to pull the trigger the other controls the force of the hammer striking the firing pin or in the case of Colts and clones the force of the firing pin striking the primer. wM1
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Trum4m1208....
No worries...it was more a dig at my shooting abilities, or rather inabilities, than directed at your comment...
It's all good with me!
My bad, misunderstood you. My apologies, good sir.
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For example..... I often do primer comparisons as an excuse to go shooting. The beauty of our hobby is it has SO MANY things that really need to be tested. Primers really aren't one of the things that differ much from brand to brand, but what the heck.... I never pass up a good sounding reason to go shoo.... uh, to TEST stuff.
I was really going today to work out the sight settings for a new MVA staff for my 40-70SS, but always work out a secondary test to include. All the cartridges were prepped the same and filled with 19.4gr AA5744 under the same .410" sized bullets etc etc. Only half had Rem 9-1/2 and the other half had WLPs.
5 shot groups went over the chronograph while sighting and adjusting and honing the sight settings. Each primer fired 4 groups with velocities recorded with 3 being measured for accuracy as well.
As expected, the group average velocities differed and also expected was the difference wasn't close to significant. The Remington groups just so happened to be slightly slower than the Winchesters. I've never seen a real pattern on the winner in these tests because I try so many different powders and such different cartridges. For example, I also had a 221 Fireball rifle doing load testing. There is a world of difference between those two cartridges, for sure.
The Rem 5 shot groups averaged from 1139 to 1147 average velocity. The average ES extreme spread for the 4 groups was around 32fps. SD for all 4 groups was in the teens. Very good numbers.
The WLP 5 shot groups averaged from 1156 to 1162. Their average extreme spreads for the 4 groups was around 16fps. SDs were all under 10. Very, very good numbers. ;D
To my way of thinking, there was a clear winner. To a statistician, there wouldn't be because the test was so small. Bottom line is that I've been shooting the Rems exclusively because they beat CCIs the first comparison test shot with that new rifle. But they're running out. WLPs are all over around here.
The 5 shot groups were alternated to make the comparison fairer as far as the accuracy part was concerned. The chronograph couldn't care less. Oh yeah... the accuracy part..... ;D ;D
hehehe..... It's seldom these tests show really significant statistical differences in accuracy. This was no exception. This rifle is one sweetheart. Plans are to shoot it in a match this Saturday. It'll certainly be up to snuff. And matches are just about the best testing available.
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May have been said by ones more eloquent than myself...
the best primers are the brand I can currently get ...period
the worst is no brand available .... :(
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Gee, who would have thought it?
Then there are the "after market" week er spring kits.
This is all related to the speedster shooting class.
For crying out load people. If you don't have the strength to cock your firearm, start working out!!!
Sorry.
I just couldn't help myself.
My best,
Blair
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The lighter springs are for more than ease of cocking, they move the gun a little less when they hit, same with the smoothed up action, it decreases lock time, both can make a difference on small targets out at a distance, but everything has to be in balance and work right for it to be an advantage.
And no, the SSM I use is not a CAS gun but a hunting gun and is used on small game to a 100 yards or slightly more.
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My personal favorites are CCI's, especially for gas guns like the Garand or M14, those get CCI mil spec hard primers for the free floating firing pin. I also like CCI's for my lever gun's tube magazine. Yes, I know there's a slim to non chance of a properly seated primer going off in a tube mag, but still.
Also I'm not a fan of Federal primers, maybe if I was shooting a match grade bolt gun. I tried a 100 of them years ago when first getting into reloading and they ran fine through a Lee hand primer, but they did get a bit dented up and maybe that's why I don't care for them?
I also reload on Lee equipment, a Loadmaster, Pro-1000, and a turret press.
I've recently tried Tula primers and so far like them. I don't know if I'd trust them yet with match loads, but for action shooting they work good, and run through my presses just fine. Also there a hard primer.
All my guns are slicked up by me, but I don't lighten the hammer spring much if any, and they will pop any primer.
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I have used WOLF or TULA large and small primers in both rifle and revolver. After over 10.000 of them i remember only one failure to fire.
BUT I will use what ever i can get when ever I can get them.
Bunk